Griever.8150 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @"Crystal Black.8190" said: > > @Griever.8150 said: > > > @NotASmurf.1725 said: > > > > @Arheundel.6451 said: > > > > > @NotASmurf.1725 said: > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > > > @troops.8276 said: > > > > > > > > @Eagelseye.6312 said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > > > > > > @AngelsShadow.7360 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards to what the pvp team is doing, they’ve mentioned that they’re working on a large project that is still several months out. Several high profile streamers have also referred to this in passing comment. I’m fairly certain this is why we haven’t seen any new maps or ‘development’ so-to-speak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a quick note to properly set expectations: We're not working on some giant PvP overhaul, so I don't want people to expect that. Most of the changes I mentioned that are a few months out are tournament features. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which means the team won't bring back teamQ and make two seperate Qs for solo and team players! Just a simple question, WHY? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the plan is to go towards complete soloQ and bring more to the ATs as the alternative for team play. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have any _current_ plans to make ranked solo queue only, though we have debated it internally multiple times. > > > > > > > > > > > > We feel a separate queue for just 5 person teams would likely go really poorly. The queue times would be exceptionally long and when you did finally get into a match, it would probably be of poor quality. There just wouldn't be enough teams for proper matchmaking to work. > > > > > > > > > > > > Automated Tournaments are our solution for team play. We're adding a 4th tournament next week to make it more likely to find a tournament during your normal play time. Additionally, while I can't guarantee this, swiss style tournaments are on our backlog. This would enable people to get several games in each tournament, even if you lose. > > > > > > > > > > What I dislike the most about this change is how you seemingly only considered NA while making this decision. I've seen in this thread that 1600 rating is NA top 250 and that's why you extended it all the way there. 1600 on EU is still considered to be a low rating by some, anyone worth their salt should be able to make it to at least 1700, and then they may still be out of the top 250 range when the season ends, so this is going to affect a lot more people on this region than intended based on NA feedback. > > > > > > > > So... you need to play alongside a friend to make it to 1700? If that's the case...I dunno how that translate to you "being worth your salt" and if that not the case..this change won't affect you at all..a win-win situation. > > > > > > I've checked my comment 5 times now after reading your reply and I still don't understand how you got to the conclusion that I NEED to duo.. > > > > > > In season 9 the reward for climbing will be that you can no longer play with friends.. people throwing games just so they can keep playing together is something I could see happening, and oh boy will it be a shitshow. > > > > I don't know. If someone' competitive enough to climb in the top 250, chances they won't be inclined to do that and will just roll a smurf to play with their friends. > > > > Not saying it won't happen, video game skills hardly correlate with intelligence afterall, but i think its likely to be a minority within a minority. Should we really worry about that? > > Like the top 250 are a minority and the ones from the top 250 sniping others are an even smaller minority within their minority? Isn't sniping kinda hard in this game considering since to see someone's status/location, they must both add each other? Not saying its impossible through connections and a concerted effort but that's starting to be a lot of hoops to go through that you normally only see much higher within a ladder than within the top 200 (and i imagine it already happens anyway). Of course im not taking into account that it could be a bigger issue for streamers there but we're falling really far into the minority of a minority territory when they become concerned. There's just no way a change can't ever negatively impact _anyone._ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotASmurf.1725 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Griever.8150 said: > > @NotASmurf.1725 said: > > > @Arheundel.6451 said: > > > > @NotASmurf.1725 said: > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > > @troops.8276 said: > > > > > > > @Eagelseye.6312 said: > > > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > > > > > @AngelsShadow.7360 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards to what the pvp team is doing, they’ve mentioned that they’re working on a large project that is still several months out. Several high profile streamers have also referred to this in passing comment. I’m fairly certain this is why we haven’t seen any new maps or ‘development’ so-to-speak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a quick note to properly set expectations: We're not working on some giant PvP overhaul, so I don't want people to expect that. Most of the changes I mentioned that are a few months out are tournament features. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which means the team won't bring back teamQ and make two seperate Qs for solo and team players! Just a simple question, WHY? > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the plan is to go towards complete soloQ and bring more to the ATs as the alternative for team play. > > > > > > > > > > We don't have any _current_ plans to make ranked solo queue only, though we have debated it internally multiple times. > > > > > > > > > > We feel a separate queue for just 5 person teams would likely go really poorly. The queue times would be exceptionally long and when you did finally get into a match, it would probably be of poor quality. There just wouldn't be enough teams for proper matchmaking to work. > > > > > > > > > > Automated Tournaments are our solution for team play. We're adding a 4th tournament next week to make it more likely to find a tournament during your normal play time. Additionally, while I can't guarantee this, swiss style tournaments are on our backlog. This would enable people to get several games in each tournament, even if you lose. > > > > > > > > What I dislike the most about this change is how you seemingly only considered NA while making this decision. I've seen in this thread that 1600 rating is NA top 250 and that's why you extended it all the way there. 1600 on EU is still considered to be a low rating by some, anyone worth their salt should be able to make it to at least 1700, and then they may still be out of the top 250 range when the season ends, so this is going to affect a lot more people on this region than intended based on NA feedback. > > > > > > So... you need to play alongside a friend to make it to 1700? If that's the case...I dunno how that translate to you "being worth your salt" and if that not the case..this change won't affect you at all..a win-win situation. > > > > I've checked my comment 5 times now after reading your reply and I still don't understand how you got to the conclusion that I NEED to duo.. > > > > In season 9 the reward for climbing will be that you can no longer play with friends.. people throwing games just so they can keep playing together is something I could see happening, and oh boy will it be a shitshow. > > I don't know. If someone' competitive enough to climb in the top 250, chances they won't be inclined to do that and will just roll a smurf to play with their friends. > > Not saying it won't happen, video game skills hardly correlate with intelligence afterall, but i think its likely to be a minority within a minority. Should we really worry about that? We've had this system for 4 seasons now, plenty of time to grab the titles you need. Once someone has the top 250 and 100 ones and the top 25 feels toof ar away, why try? Honestly. You'll get nothing out of a high placement more than once, and since people already get the bonus pips in plat throwing a couple of matches wouldn't be too hard. I'm predicting the new system to be even more malicious especially in the "cutoff range" of 1.6k. Instead of playing with a friend who wants to climb, I could just sync with them, get in the same match, and if we're on the same side we duo, if we're on opposite sides I throw. Couldn't say throwing is healthier than duo. People will try to sync, trust me, and failed sync attempts won't be pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R E F L H E X.8413 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 On the topic of syncing nothing stopped a duo from syncing a third which is worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brannigan.9831 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 1600 is not the top 250 players. Probably more like top 400. There are plenty of players that vaciliate right around that line. It's dumb. I guess maybe it would be good if they did away with it for one season for everyone and then all the bads (1300 MMR and below) and delusional (1500-1700 MMR range that thinks duos are keeping them from legend) get a reality check when they don't do any better then they normally do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotASmurf.1725 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @brannigan.9831 said: > 1600 is not the top 250 players. Probably more like top 400. There are plenty of players that vaciliate right around that line. It's kitten. I guess maybe it would be good if they did away with it for one season for everyone and then all the bads (1300 MMR and below)that blame duos for not being able to get out silver and bronze can get the message once and for all that they suck. They'd just start blaming the matchmaking again, the last thing Anet can't remove. The eternal scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @NotASmurf.1725 said: > > @brannigan.9831 said: > > 1600 is not the top 250 players. Probably more like top 400. There are plenty of players that vaciliate right around that line. It's kitten. I guess maybe it would be good if they did away with it for one season for everyone and then all the bads (1300 MMR and below)that blame duos for not being able to get out silver and bronze can get the message once and for all that they suck. > > They'd just start blaming the matchmaking again, the last thing Anet can't remove. The eternal scapegoat. I wonder who is worst....the one blaming the matchmaking or the one who firmly believe of being the main winning factor in a 5vs5 game. I have huge difficulties wrapping my head about the second point: if I'd have to translate that to real life I'd say that any football team that you can imagine ..even a team made up of elderly players would be able to win the champions league...as long as they have a single champion with them... say... Christiano Ronaldo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morwath.9817 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Arheundel.6451 said: > > @NotASmurf.1725 said: > > > @brannigan.9831 said: > > > 1600 is not the top 250 players. Probably more like top 400. There are plenty of players that vaciliate right around that line. It's kitten. I guess maybe it would be good if they did away with it for one season for everyone and then all the bads (1300 MMR and below)that blame duos for not being able to get out silver and bronze can get the message once and for all that they suck. > > > > They'd just start blaming the matchmaking again, the last thing Anet can't remove. The eternal scapegoat. > > I wonder who is worst....the one blaming the matchmaking or the one who firmly believe of being the main winning factor in a 5vs5 game. > I have huge difficulties wrapping my head about the second point: if I'd have to translate that to real life I'd say that any football team that you can imagine ..even a team made up of elderly players would be able to win the champions league...as long as they have a single champion with them... say... Christiano Ronaldo. > > ...but imagine Christiano Ronaldo is a thief and he can teleport with ball around the map in a blink of an eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolo.5942 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Im going to say it like it is, you can agree or you can be wrong, but this is reality. FACTS: 1- Current PvP population is next to non existent. 2- There is an astronomical imbalance between organized teams and PUGs. 3- Most of the pvp players DO NOT participate in organized teams. 4- The ever present and sutil like que guillotine lack of balance , does not lend GW2 pvp to be taken seriously, thus reinforcing 1. 5- Making pvp combat increasingly faster paced and invulnerability CDs based, has driven away much of the original pvp population. 6- The current PvP population does not support multiple queuing methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griever.8150 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Morwath.9817 said: > > @Arheundel.6451 said: > > > @NotASmurf.1725 said: > > > > @brannigan.9831 said: > > > > 1600 is not the top 250 players. Probably more like top 400. There are plenty of players that vaciliate right around that line. It's kitten. I guess maybe it would be good if they did away with it for one season for everyone and then all the bads (1300 MMR and below)that blame duos for not being able to get out silver and bronze can get the message once and for all that they suck. > > > > > > They'd just start blaming the matchmaking again, the last thing Anet can't remove. The eternal scapegoat. > > > > I wonder who is worst....the one blaming the matchmaking or the one who firmly believe of being the main winning factor in a 5vs5 game. > > I have huge difficulties wrapping my head about the second point: if I'd have to translate that to real life I'd say that any football team that you can imagine ..even a team made up of elderly players would be able to win the champions league...as long as they have a single champion with them... say... Christiano Ronaldo. > > > > > > ...but imagine Christiano Ronaldo is a thief and he can teleport with ball around the map in a blink of an eye! A Thief can't carry shit on its own if the rest of his team can't hold a single point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlie.7641 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 your matchmaker will never work. and it's all the fault of balance. There is no more risk Vs Reward. and because of that you've created a bunch of player's who have an artifically higher MMR then they where ever suppose to get. I've thrown quite a few games this season when we where up 250 or so points, Due to rage kiddies. You want to see real rage you should try it. Some of them realize right before they lose, that maybe they shouldn't of raged at the person carrying them. Most of them don't though. you can't really blame them though. they have been charging mid 1v4 all the way up the ladder and winning! it can't possibly be there fault that there losing now right? Solo / Duo / Team's, It doesn't matter, everything you do will be Null and Void due to balance. And that really sucks for you pvp dev's. Noone likes to be blamed for other peoples fuck ups. like you are now. It's a good lesson for your management / publisher* though. Never balance a game around pve. Alway's balance around Pvp / WvW, and adjust the numbers on your AI critters. It's more work yes, but it won't kill your game. *one day we will find out who to really blame... one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Anet just needs to balance faster. Every 2 weeks, if something is overpowered/overperforming, shave it and explain why. If something is underperforming, buff/redo it and explain why. Balance will be a lot better over time than these 4 patches a year we are currently receiving. Nothing will ever get done like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordrosicky.5813 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 I came back briefly and got to legend and I quit because of duo queue. It was tedious to run into mesmer/thief try hard duo queues who can insta spike people. It was boring being in so many 1 sided games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilkemia.8507 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 It's dead already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BakiSaN.9281 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @witcher.3197 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > Anet's about to ban people from playing ranked as a duo in the 1600+ rating range, taking away the last real opportunity for community building left in PvP. > > > > That means the top 250 players... While making life better for everyone in high plat when they won't be matched against a duo of Legendary players due to the low population. > > Maybe in NA. In EU it's going to be much more punishing for the general public as top 250 starts around 1750, and mind you, it's the top 250 with enough games played, there are many more players in that rating range who just haven't played enough matches to show up on it. That's not true, at least most of it isn't. I was #100-150 at 1700 rating most of the season and the final numbers you're quoting showed up only when the season was less than a week from ending. That's when most people started farming and even then, I finished #220 at 1730 rating. I didn't duo more than 3 games in total the entire season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanniell.1236 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 Love the change. Hope they end duoQ altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 I sincerely looked forward to PvP today. After 5 straight losses... I'm brewing a pot of coffee and reading the wiki, preparing to do Gyala Hatchery in Hard Mode. *That's a lot more fun.* **My point? Groups make PvP unfun for the solos they crush. They are therefore detrimental.** If ANET is determined to have groups, they should return to the old "Team Arena" which meant parties of any size and "Solo Arena" which was solo only. **The better course would be solo only in ranked and groups allowed in AT.** Of course, this would make it difficult or impossible to complete some guild missions in pvp. Still, I don't honestly see that a guild mission to pound solos is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 > @Ithilwen.1529 said: > I sincerely looked forward to PvP today. After 5 straight losses... I'm brewing a pot of coffee and reading the wiki, preparing to do Gyala Hatchery in Hard Mode. *That's a lot more fun.* > > **My point? Groups make PvP unfun for the solos they crush. They are therefore detrimental.** > > If ANET is determined to have groups, they should return to the old "Team Arena" which meant parties of any size and "Solo Arena" which was solo only. **The better course would be solo only in ranked and groups allowed in AT.** > > Of course, this would make it difficult or impossible to complete some guild missions in pvp. Still, I don't honestly see that a guild mission to pound solos is a good thing. Your point is idiotic. "When I lose its not fun so nerf the winners." Groups > solo If you are playing solo and losing, find a group to play with or go in a dueling server. I fail to see how the option of playing in a group is detrimental to any team based games. You're complaining over the fact that a coordinated group of people using voice chat winning against an uncoordinated group with poor communication is unfair. Yeah. No shit. This is the incentive to find/form a team of your own. You're also the one complaining that you don't like the new elite specs for mesmer so they should give core classes a magic hat that makes them stronger right? You remind me of Jumpin Lumpix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Alim.4176 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 > @shadowpass.4236 said: > > @Ithilwen.1529 said: > > I sincerely looked forward to PvP today. After 5 straight losses... I'm brewing a pot of coffee and reading the wiki, preparing to do Gyala Hatchery in Hard Mode. *That's a lot more fun.* > > > > **My point? Groups make PvP unfun for the solos they crush. They are therefore detrimental.** > > > > If ANET is determined to have groups, they should return to the old "Team Arena" which meant parties of any size and "Solo Arena" which was solo only. **The better course would be solo only in ranked and groups allowed in AT.** > > > > Of course, this would make it difficult or impossible to complete some guild missions in pvp. Still, I don't honestly see that a guild mission to pound solos is a good thing. > > Your point is idiotic. "When I lose its not fun so nerf the winners." > > Groups > solo > > If you are playing solo and losing, find a group to play with or go in a dueling server. > > I fail to see how the option of playing in a group is detrimental to any team based games. You're complaining over the fact that a coordinated group of people using voice chat winning against an uncoordinated group with poor communication is unfair. Yeah. No kitten. This is the incentive to find/form a team of your own. > > You're also the one complaining that you don't like the new elite specs for mesmer so they should give core classes a magic hat that makes them stronger right? You remind me of Jumpin Lumpix. LMAO this was great. But yeah I agree. > @Ithilwen.1529 said: > I sincerely looked forward to PvP today. After 5 straight losses... I'm brewing a pot of coffee and reading the wiki, preparing to do Gyala Hatchery in Hard Mode. *That's a lot more fun.* > > **My point? Groups make PvP unfun for the solos they crush. They are therefore detrimental.** > > If ANET is determined to have groups, they should return to the old "Team Arena" which meant parties of any size and "Solo Arena" which was solo only. **The better course would be solo only in ranked and groups allowed in AT.** > > Of course, this would make it difficult or impossible to complete some guild missions in pvp. Still, I don't honestly see that a guild mission to pound solos is a good thing. I don't know if or not I'll be able to get through to you. But I'm sure going to try. Yes as a solo it's completely unfair to be set against a pre made. I mean I understand this point of yours. However I believe you should stop campaigning against the pre mades. And start focusing your efforts on campaigning for better matchmaking, and match quality. You also have to remember you are in a 5v5 game mode. So by just having random teammates your chances of climbing the ranks aren't much better. More so since loads of players have dedicated themselves, towards making Ranked PvP a very bad experience for others. Also ANet's more or less supporting for these players who do so. By not dishing out punishment as needed. Again Pre mades are not our enemy. The matchmaker and the match quality is our enemy. None of which the devs. seem very interested on improving. Which brings me to my next suggestion to you. Have you ever thought of the slight possibility, that GW2 is not worthy of you? That maybe you should venture out and find a game that is worthy of your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 > @Ithilwen.1529 said: > I sincerely looked forward to PvP today. After 5 straight losses... I'm brewing a pot of coffee and reading the wiki, preparing to do Gyala Hatchery in Hard Mode. *That's a lot more fun.* Omg that suuucked to do solo. Hope you have some Halloween cookies for that DP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > @Ithilwen.1529 said: > > I sincerely looked forward to PvP today. After 5 straight losses... I'm brewing a pot of coffee and reading the wiki, preparing to do Gyala Hatchery in Hard Mode. *That's a lot more fun.* > > Omg that suuucked to do solo. Hope you have some Halloween cookies for that DP. > ( I'm back, having solo'd the mission, with Master's reward. ) Conquest PvP has teams. That does not establish that it is or is intended to be "team based." As multiple posters have pointed out, organized group vs solo inherently favors the group. This fact, along with poor match making has had a big hand in reducing PvP population. ANET tacitly acknowledged the problem and attempted a compromise with duo in ranked. I contend that the compromise hasn't worked. Duo queue has been exploited to the max. Strong match quality would bring people back over time. That would require solo queue and denying class stacking, ( as was done in the "Pro League." ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Black.8190 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 PvP definitely was never intended to be played as a team the same way raids and challenge mode fractals were never intended to be played as a team! All of them were clearly designed as a pure solo experience in mind. How can these PvEers dare to form groups to abuse the system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choovanski.5462 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 @"Crystal Black.8190" said: > PvP definitely was never intended to be played as a team the same way raids and challenge mode fractals were never intended to be played as a team! All of them were clearly designed as a pure solo experience in mind. How can these PvEers dare to form groups to abuse the system? I am laughing so hard. gold post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojo.6140 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 As someone who wished for solo-queue only in ranked pvp, im welcoming this change. Im still hoping they will remove duos completely in ranked some time in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despond.2174 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 I'd love for it--and many others including pros--to just go back to solo queue only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmrahil.1934 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > @troops.8276 said: > > > @Eagelseye.6312 said: > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > @AngelsShadow.7360 said: > > > > > > > > > With regards to what the pvp team is doing, they’ve mentioned that they’re working on a large project that is still several months out. Several high profile streamers have also referred to this in passing comment. I’m fairly certain this is why we haven’t seen any new maps or ‘development’ so-to-speak. > > > > > > > > > Just a quick note to properly set expectations: We're not working on some giant PvP overhaul, so I don't want people to expect that. Most of the changes I mentioned that are a few months out are tournament features. > > > > > > > > > > Which means the team won't bring back teamQ and make two seperate Qs for solo and team players! Just a simple question, WHY? > > > > Maybe the plan is to go towards complete soloQ and bring more to the ATs as the alternative for team play. > > We don't have any _current_ plans to make ranked solo queue only, though we have debated it internally multiple times. > > We feel a separate queue for just 5 person teams would likely go really poorly. The queue times would be exceptionally long and when you did finally get into a match, it would probably be of poor quality. There just wouldn't be enough teams for proper matchmaking to work. > > Automated Tournaments are our solution for team play. We're adding a 4th tournament next week to make it more likely to find a tournament during your normal play time. Additionally, while I can't guarantee this, swiss style tournaments are on our backlog. This would enable people to get several games in each tournament, even if you lose. The important question is : Concidering that sPvP mode , is the only gw2 mode that can be played seriously competitively , and that in past you support this mode a lot and gave us seriouse events ( go4 , pro league ) do you plan start support this mode seriously again and give us a competitive environment outside AT's? i know that comparing to pve mode sPvP has much less players (would be wierd if was the other way since pve encourage casual play) but from the other hand , sPvP had , has and will always have more devoted and hardcore community (even smaller one) . I know there are very few teams at this moment , but dont you think that with encouraging solo play that wont gonna change soon? Also try make any casual pve'er who makes couple of ques for his/hers daily happy wont help sPvP. sPvP was and always will be something competitive. And that means it attracks fewer but more devoted people.Good organized team events will make people create teams. And i dont speak about 200.000 prize events like pro league. Good organization > money prize atm. And no the challenger ladder for pro league was not good organized. I dont say all those to critisize , i really appriciate the work you guys doing , but i am sure with good organization and seriouse events the sPvP community will become much more solid and population will grow to some (decent) exent. Hope you will reply to my post , and even if not , you will concider those thoughts seriously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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