not happy with the state of PvP and WvW

[troops.8276]

> @Ayakaru.6583 said:

> > @troops.8276 said:

> > > @Ayakaru.6583 said:

> > > problem is, only people who are dissatisfied will come here to complain/vote against.. so.. yea.. for every dissatsfied vote you got, there were probably more than 10 satisfied people playing the game instead of voting on polls

> >

> > And how many dissatisfied customers who left with out ever saying a word?

>

> I have no reason to believe that would be any bigger than the smalest group

 

I suppose wording it as 'only those who continue to play despite being dissatisfied'. It's fairly well recognised that more people will cease to be customers with out complaining versus the very few that will complain. Though that's not gaming industry specific. We will never know the true numbers of course but if a few hundred people express dissatisfaction then it would be a reasonable assumption to make that there would be a far higher magnitude of others that felt the same but were never polled.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Balance patch is next week.

 

Do you expect this to fix anything?

[troops.8276]

Various figures get put about regarding pvp participation. Only 10% pvp is a common one. Which would mean the remaining 90% don't like it. Why do they not like it? Are they dissatisfied with it as a game mode? That would make the 85% figure given here not far off the mark. Given the success of games with a pvp element across the whole gaming industry, would only 10% participation be an under representation.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

The same game mode in spvp for over five years. Non existent reward system in wvw. No wonder everyone is complaining.

 

Anet, if you're unable to create a new game mode, just copy JQ/FA from GW1. These two modes were amazing and would fit gw2 nicely.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

> Oh, I agree that the 85 percent number is made up......... I am always against players claiming numbers or some made up consensus. No one has the numbers. There is also no proof that those who dislike the game come to the forums more often than those that like the game. Let's drop the bitter complainer fallacy.

 

In this case, the OP did not make up the 85% number. His error was in assuming that the numbers generated by the polls were based on a representative sample.

 

At one point, back on the old forums , one of the devs revealed some interesting numbers. He said something like 5% of the registered account holders visited the forums regularly. 5% of a random sample of a group as large as GW2 account holders could yield significant results in a poll. However, there is no way to tell if that sample truly represents a cross-section of GW2 players. I don't know about anyone else, but I see a lot more complaints on the forums than I see "positive" posts. If that observation is representative, it seems likely there is some skew towards negativity in the sampled demographic.

[Zaltys.7649]

> @"Teofa Tsavo.9863" said:

> That is very subjective and false.

Not at all, it's accurate.

As someone who's worked in the MMO industry, I can say for a fact that PvP gets in the way of PvE development: there were a lot of things that couldn't be implemented into PvE because they would've broken things in PvP.

 

Such as various movement and teleport abilities, which would've been fine in PvE, but completely broken if used against other players.

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

I post only if I am playing. I do so because the game needs input beyond the rubber stamp fawning of the other extreme that will not criticize anything. Now, If I decide to walk away, as I did over the Desert map replacing all maps and HoT in general I don't post or even check these forums... what would be the point at that time. I came back to see if they learned anything re platform gating and forced grouping. Apparently, they have.

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

> @Zaltys.7649 said:

> > @"Teofa Tsavo.9863" said:

> > That is very subjective and false.

> Not at all, it's accurate.

> As someone who's worked in the MMO industry, I can say for a fact that PvP gets in the way of PvE development: there were a lot of things that couldn't be implemented into PvE because they would've broken things in PvP.

>

> Such as various movement and teleport abilities, which would've been fine in PvE, but completely broken if used against other players.

 

Actually I was responding to his statement that you could remove WvW and PvP and "no one" would care. I think I'll stand by that.

[blambidy.3216]

I highly doubt it's 85. If it was 85, arenanet would have loong ago did something. The difference is if 85 percent actually tried to make a point and stop playing PvP and wvw then arenanet would've did something. But since most people play wvw and PvP, arenanet isn't going to fix what's not broken. Why you fix something when there's 100,000 doing wvw and PvP everyday?

 

85 percent is just and exaggerated number. Only the people who don't have mind over matter complain about them. PvP and wvw is actually fine. Even with the so called "imbalance".

[Smeerlap.2698]

Let me humbly put my 2 cents in, GW2 is a great MMO.. i have played MANY over the years.

I have been playing for allmost 2 years and only have a few hours in PvP - WvW, here is the reason why.

 

PvP - to me its more like a 5vs5 arena fight - can't say there is something wrong with it, but Arenanet should make 2vs2 - 3vs3 and 5vs5 competitions with ranking, yep like that *other* game.

I am not a ranking guy, but this would make it more interesting.

 

WvW - now here is where i do think there is something not right, its 2 zergs running from place to place, this is NOT fun.

Anyone who remembers WoW *arathi basin, Alterac Valley, Eye of the storm* maps, just to name a few would *probably* agree how much fun that was.

I just find the maps are to big and complicated to get anywhere fast, unless there are ways to fast teleport to certain area's.

Simply put, a zerg train won't work.

Im not the fastest runner, and when you find yourself dead and abandoned :'( you have to run ALL the way from spawn point to the Comm, this takes to much time and takes away the *flow*.

 

The whole idea should be faster rounds, not runs that take hours.. more spreading out of players that cap different area's.

When certain area's have been capped, only then there should be a *boss* and when defeated this area counts as *conquered*.

Maybe work with tickets, 500 ticks per game, player kill = 1 ticket, boss kill = 50 tickets, something like that.

I really liked the homebase bosses you had to defeat or defend in WoW, made the game so much more fun.

 

Just a suggestion, this zerg train we have now is just no fun, en will allways clash in a huge skill spam trainwreck.

 

 

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

In other words water is wet and the sun is hot....

 

So situation normal.

[Natto.5819]

> @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > @Haishao.6851 said:

> > I doubt 85% of the playerbase play WvW or PvP

>

> I also doubt 235 people are representative of "85% of the playerbase."

 

That sounds like an accurate number of dedicated Ranked PvP accounts, some of which are alts owned by top players.

[Rennie.6750]

It's like asking employees if they want a better pay. Of course everyone is going to say yes. I don't imply that there are no issues but right now queue times for WvW can be up to 1h and sPvP ones are quite fast given how complicated the matchmaking is, so I'd say that it's still enjoyable for many, many players.

 

Such polls are completely irrelevant, they're not specific enough and just mix general bitching with legitimate but not necessarily game breaking issues and maybe a few critical ones.

[Greener.6204]

> @troops.8276 said:

> So yes, it's an incomplete data set, but then there are 2 types of people in life;

> 1. those that can extrapolate from incomplete data sets.

And extrapolating from garbage data can only give you 2 possible results:

1. Garbage

;)

 

[Erulogos.2591]

> @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

> Oh, I agree that the 85 percent number is made up......... I am always against players claiming numbers or some made up consensus. No one has the numbers. There is also no proof that those who dislike the game come to the forums more often than those that like the game. Let's drop the bitter complainer fallacy.

 

It isn't a fallacy. It is human nature.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/your-money/why-people-remember-negative-events-more-than-positive-ones.html

http://streetfightmag.com/2012/08/14/poll-bad-experiences-are-more-likely-to-inspire-reviews/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200306/our-brains-negative-bias

 

And so on. Humanity naturally focuses on problems, things to be fixed or avoided, not things that are going swimmingly. We are, on average, more likely to complain than to compliment. Now, you can't just dismiss all complaints as purely irrational, but if for example 70% of people who actually engage in PvP in some form are content, most of them aren't going to turn up on the forums to say so. Meanwhile, the other 30% are far more motivated to be squeaky wheels seeking some grease, so more of them will turn up. Also, more of them will comment on the topic, as opposed to the generally content people who mostly (if they visit the forums at all) will be posting other things, like lore speculation, or item suggestions, or other generally happier topics.

 

The only valid statement based on the polls above would be something like "85% of *forum visitors* who *noticed these polls* and *were willing to respond to them* indicated displeasure with the state of PvP/WvW."

 

You'll note several very important qualifications in the amended statement. Forums visitors do not provide a representative sample of the playerbase (they never do in any game that has had forums.) Not every forum visitor will notice the polls (for example, I'm here daily almost, and I didn't see either of those threads until I was linked to them here.) And not every forum visitor who notices the polls will respond, particularly since they show who voted for which option. With all of those qualifications, I fail to see how you can draw any meaningful conclusions from that data.

[troops.8276]

> @Erulogos.2591 said:

> > @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

> > Oh, I agree that the 85 percent number is made up......... I am always against players claiming numbers or some made up consensus. No one has the numbers. There is also no proof that those who dislike the game come to the forums more often than those that like the game. Let's drop the bitter complainer fallacy.

>

> It isn't a fallacy. It is human nature.

> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/your-money/why-people-remember-negative-events-more-than-positive-ones.html

> http://streetfightmag.com/2012/08/14/poll-bad-experiences-are-more-likely-to-inspire-reviews/

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias

> https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200306/our-brains-negative-bias

>

> And so on. Humanity naturally focuses on problems, things to be fixed or avoided, not things that are going swimmingly. We are, on average, more likely to complain than to compliment. Now, you can't just dismiss all complaints as purely irrational, but if for example 70% of people who actually engage in PvP in some form are content, most of them aren't going to turn up on the forums to say so. Meanwhile, the other 30% are far more motivated to be squeaky wheels seeking some grease, so more of them will turn up. Also, more of them will comment on the topic, as opposed to the generally content people who mostly (if they visit the forums at all) will be posting other things, like lore speculation, or item suggestions, or other generally happier topics.

>

> The only valid statement based on the polls above would be something like "85% of *forum visitors* who *noticed these polls* and *were willing to respond to them* indicated displeasure with the state of PvP/WvW."

>

> You'll note several very important qualifications in the amended statement. Forums visitors do not provide a representative sample of the playerbase (they never do in any game that has had forums.) Not every forum visitor will notice the polls (for example, I'm here daily almost, and I didn't see either of those threads until I was linked to them here.) And not every forum visitor who notices the polls will respond, particularly since they show who voted for which option. With all of those qualifications, I fail to see how you can draw any meaningful conclusions from that data.

 

All that is of course true but the 0.00n% of ppl expressing displeasure on the forum are also part of another demographic. Those who stop playing all together because of it and for that dismissing the intent of those expressing displeasure here underplays the extent of the problem. Or at least it may and that has not been resoundingly addressed here. Pvp does bring money in, undoubtedly not as much as pve and likely with less profit but it will still be a portion of revenue that Anet would rather have than not.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @TheQuickFox.3826 said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Balance patch is next week.

>

> Do you expect this to fix anything?

 

Yes.

[Khisanth.2948]

85% of the playerbase is simply impossible since less than 50% of the playerbase actually participate in either of those.

[troops.8276]

To the OP,

Please reword your thread unless the discussion you hoped to start was about polling accuracy and confirmation bias, etc.

[Endless Soul.5178]

> @Haishao.6851 said:

> I doubt 85% of the playerbase play WvW or PvP

 

I know I don't. :)

[gavyne.6847]

I used to visit the forum a lot more often when I was happy and actively playing the game. Even game developers will tell you they are fine with people complaining or bringing up issues as long as they are constructive. Game developers have admitted before that it's better for people to complain and bring up issues on the forums because it means people still care. If people didn't care, most would've just left and not said a word. Posting about a game means people are still passionate about it, and want to see it improve. When forum activities die down, so do the games. Now that is a correlation we've seen time and time again in MMO's.

 

So people say happy gamers are busy playing the game and won't bother with the forums, that's sometimes true but not always. Many gamers visit the forums, whether they're happy or not. But they visit the forums because they still care, and that's a good thing.

 

On the subject of polls, before you dismiss it, polls apparently mean something to Anet. Because polls were utilized several times in the past by Anet employees to determine course of action in the WvW & PvP forums. They've made big decisions and changes in WvW & PvP based on the polls. So while people are busy nitpicking the wording of the title of this thread, keep that in mind.

 

The only problem with this thread is that it's full of responses from people who don't WvW/PvP, many even openly admit they would be fine with these game modes being gone. If you are passionate about the game, and you like GW2/Anet, then you should want to see them improve on all aspect of the game. Poll results and low forum activities in WvW/PvP should come as no surprise. GW2 just had an expansion and these two game modes were not represented as part of the expansion. To many who play these game modes, the only thing the expansion did was to throw balance out of whack. Being OP in PvE might not be an issue at all, but class balance affect WvW & PvP greatly.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

I don't play PvP and the only thing that really bothers me in WvW is how incredibly dominating Conditions are at the moment.

Spellbreaker will be fine in my opinion as soon as they nerfed enchantment collapse (Internal Cooldown or whatever)

[JanHermann.2436]

What I think Anet should do (and I thought that way since I started playing this 5 yrs ago):

 

**completely decouple the three game modes from each other**.

 

Just make the three game modes selectable from within the character select screen, make a clean break for characters in WvW by copying the existing characters into a "new" wvw drawer and let people continue "anew" from there.

PvP doesn't need anything done since it is on and by its own for a long time now and the character (-templates) have nothing to do with the PvE ones anyway.

Just make a clean break and go separate paths, the balancing will NEVER EVER be done properly when the teams have to take every single small thing from the three modes into account.

 

I'm fully aware Anet will NEVER EVER (...) take the plunge and do that, but by continuing to do it all so overstretched (and as proven - hopelessly inadequate) they'll do noone any favors.

 

But, by separating the modes they could dedicate developer ressources in a more straightforward manner.

It is sad only they know how many customers play what, and for how long, my guess at the distribution is PvE 70%, PvP 20% and WvW 10%, so put in QoL/balancing resources adequately.

[Erulogos.2591]

> @troops.8276 said:

> All that is of course true but the 0.00n% of ppl expressing displeasure on the forum are also part of another demographic. Those who stop playing all together because of it and for that dismissing the intent of those expressing displeasure here underplays the extent of the problem. Or at least it may and that has not been resoundingly addressed here. Pvp does bring money in, undoubtedly not as much as pve and likely with less profit but it will still be a portion of revenue that Anet would rather have than not.

 

Certainly there is an obviously dissatisfied group, since the folks voting in the polls above also likely only represent a portion of the disgruntled. But you hit the nail firmly on the head by talking about money. GW2 is pretty solidly about cosmetics. Armor skins, weapon skins, outfits, glider skins, mount skins, both in game rewards and gem store goodies are resoundingly cosmetic. And while Anet would like to keep every dime, if they can spend their dev budget on PvP balance or money makers, it's going to go to money makers. When they can spend on both I'm sure they try to, but PvP is going to take a back seat in lean times. It's the 80/20 rule in action, with good PvP being 80% effort for 20% return. Really, any game not designed from day 1 to be PvP pretty much top to bottom is only including PvP as a checkbox item, and the PvP is probably not much fun.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @FogLeg.9354 said:

> > @troops.8276 said:

> > It seems slightly disingenuous to point out that only a small percentage of ppl come to the forums and an even smaller percent of those participated in the poll itself, while not mentioning, that by the same logic, there would then be a higher number of people who voted with their feet.

>

> The problem with discussing why players leave the game or even how many have left GW2 over certain timeframe is obvious, again, we just don't know. Some players leave, some new players join. What reasons each had to stop playing... dunno. Is there even one single reason or multiple reasons, some having nothing to do with the game? Has overall PvP or WvW playerbase increased or reduced and why? We don't know.

>

> I doubt there is anyone saying game is absolutely perfect and can not be improved in any way. Yet, once you start to look closer, players have many different views on what parts are important, what gamemodes matter and what exactly should/could be improved. Take 100 players and ask what is wrong with WvW and they all give hugely different lists, if you then ask how to improve WvW, they again give suggestions going very different directions. So, if Anet would make any changes there is good chance some players will be happy and some will be upset while some don't care.

>

> So what have we learned from this thread? Nothing really.

 

This head in the sand attitude is one of the festering sores of today.

 

We DO know that a ton of players have left WvW. The servers have been condenced by 2/3 just to make a semblance of a playable game. It is obvious that even under todays system, there still is a much lower player base compared to 3-5 years ago. We use our eyes and minds.

 

We DO know why players have left the game. We talk to our fellow players. They hated HoT on release and left in droves. PoF has had a similar effect, but I currently don't know whole guilds have left on my server yet. Honestly, there are almost no cohesive guilds that will just move to a different game anymore. At least not on my server. I can't speak for others.

 

We DO know. Open your eyes and hears. Saying things like "we'll never know" allows bad things to creep up on us.