SWI.4127 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @intox.6347 said: > > @davidiven.9408 said: > > I admit I hate the condi spam, but scourge right now are getting deleted from 1200 range > yop, im running power rev CoR hammer build.... and its countering scourge like nothing else.... range bombs on 1200, i think its now best backline dps, 10-17k hit with CoR no problem, spammable :D > > At the risk of veering off-topic, CoR is OP right now as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @SWI.4127 said: > > @intox.6347 said: > > > @davidiven.9408 said: > > > I admit I hate the condi spam, but scourge right now are getting deleted from 1200 range > > yop, im running power rev CoR hammer build.... and its countering scourge like nothing else.... range bombs on 1200, i think its now best backline dps, 10-17k hit with CoR no problem, spammable :D > > > > > > At the risk of veering off-topic, CoR is OP right now as well. How was is buffed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorWunderbar.5037 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @SWI.4127 said: > > > @intox.6347 said: > > > > @davidiven.9408 said: > > > > I admit I hate the condi spam, but scourge right now are getting deleted from 1200 range > > > yop, im running power rev CoR hammer build.... and its countering scourge like nothing else.... range bombs on 1200, i think its now best backline dps, 10-17k hit with CoR no problem, spammable :D > > > > > > > > > > At the risk of veering off-topic, CoR is OP right now as well. > > How was is buffed? No more perma protection, 6% outgoing damage buff from invocation. CoR damage scaling has always been stupidly high. While Winds & Scourges are a problem, revs are the biggest problem no one wants to talk about. Also, Gregor Payne for ArenaNet Partner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 It wasn't buffed as far as I know. I just sincerely believe you should not be able to do that kind of damage at that range. I've felt it's too strong for awhile now, but it seems to be getting much more popular as of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @SWI.4127 said: > It wasn't buffed as far as I know. I just sincerely believe you should not be able to do that kind of damage at that range. I've felt it's too strong for awhile now, but it seems to be getting much more popular as of late. Corrupted protection = ~55% more damage taken by targets. Funny enough it's traited jalis stone elite thingy that should be meta again since it cannot be corrupted. That stacked with new +25e invocation trait. And this can be run on the very same zerker hammer revs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @DoctorWunderbar.5037 said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @SWI.4127 said: > > > > @intox.6347 said: > > > > > @davidiven.9408 said: > > > > > I admit I hate the condi spam, but scourge right now are getting deleted from 1200 range > > > > yop, im running power rev CoR hammer build.... and its countering scourge like nothing else.... range bombs on 1200, i think its now best backline dps, 10-17k hit with CoR no problem, spammable :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the risk of veering off-topic, CoR is OP right now as well. > > > > How was is buffed? > > No more perma protection, 6% outgoing damage buff from invocation. CoR damage scaling has always been stupidly high. While Winds & Scourges are a problem, revs are the biggest problem no one wants to talk about. > > Also, > > Gregor Payne for ArenaNet Partner But if you nerf rev anymore you may as well remove that entire profession from the game. It's the child anet locked in a basement, and continues to feed it spoonfuls of water just to keep it alive enough to suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Ok... but CoR is a 2 year old skill... Rev hasn't changed. It was nerfed in fact. Now we are back to hating on it? Sorry, but the hate given to power builds: deadeye, weavers one shot (which was mostly possible with d/d before with the exception of a dmg trait and is about 3 skills to pull off), Mesmer 'one shot' (which is actually like 4 skills) The forum is all hate for condis, and now that scourge is hitting booms, making things like protection and resistance etc not as functional, now EVERY class needs their one shot build nerfed. (Which means there is actually no one shot build... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > Ok... but CoR is a 2 year old skill... Rev hasn't changed. It was nerfed in fact. Now we are back to hating on it? > > Sorry, but the hate given to power builds: deadeye, weavers one shot (which was mostly possible with d/d before with the exception of a dmg trait and is about 3 skills to pull off), Mesmer 'one shot' (which is actually like 4 skills) > > The forum is all hate for condis, and now that scourge is hitting booms, making things like protection and resistance etc not as functional, now EVERY class needs their one shot build nerfed. > > (Which means there is actually no one shot build... ) > Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's just that the meta shifted, it became more widely-used and it's more apparent now that it's too good. I don't think it's comparable to "one shot" skills. The problem IMO is that it is spammable (every 4 seconds...you kidding me?), has almost no risk whatsoever, and does something like 12k+ damage to 5 targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goblin Beet Farmer.3045 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 After the last two patches Scourges have really been toned down. Do I still die to Scourges? Yes but no where nearly as much as before the bug fixes and balancing. They are not the threat they once were. I think the OP needs to improve his/her counterplay. As others have said above Deadeye and Rangers melt Scourges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 The real question is how do they make Vanilla Necro viable without making Scourge even more OP? But nobody other than necros (including the devs) is interested in thinking about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @SWI.4127 said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > Ok... but CoR is a 2 year old skill... Rev hasn't changed. It was nerfed in fact. Now we are back to hating on it? > > > > Sorry, but the hate given to power builds: deadeye, weavers one shot (which was mostly possible with d/d before with the exception of a dmg trait and is about 3 skills to pull off), Mesmer 'one shot' (which is actually like 4 skills) > > > > The forum is all hate for condis, and now that scourge is hitting booms, making things like protection and resistance etc not as functional, now EVERY class needs their one shot build nerfed. > > > > (Which means there is actually no one shot build... ) > > > > Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's just that the meta shifted, it became more widely-used and it's more apparent now that it's too good. I don't think it's comparable to "one shot" skills. The problem IMO is that it is spammable (every 4 seconds...you kidding me?), has almost no risk whatsoever, and does something like 12k+ damage to 5 targets. > @SWI.4127 said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > Ok... but CoR is a 2 year old skill... Rev hasn't changed. It was nerfed in fact. Now we are back to hating on it? > > > > Sorry, but the hate given to power builds: deadeye, weavers one shot (which was mostly possible with d/d before with the exception of a dmg trait and is about 3 skills to pull off), Mesmer 'one shot' (which is actually like 4 skills) > > > > The forum is all hate for condis, and now that scourge is hitting booms, making things like protection and resistance etc not as functional, now EVERY class needs their one shot build nerfed. > > > > (Which means there is actually no one shot build... ) > > > > Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's just that the meta shifted, it became more widely-used and it's more apparent now that it's too good. I don't think it's comparable to "one shot" skills. The problem IMO is that it is spammable (every 4 seconds...you kidding me?), has almost no risk whatsoever, and does something like 12k+ damage to 5 targets. But again, it's power. Its what people have been screaming for. The condi thread was something like 60-75% get rid of condi (yeah I probably made up that stat, but it feels like that) and when power gets buffs: deadeye, weaver; and used more: Rev, reaper, Mesmer, People lose their collective mind. (Not everyone... and yes, all of the power could be toned down some.. yes hyperbole) Booms get corrupted, people get hit by more damage. Are these CoRs hitting heavy armor tanks? Or more glassy builds. Are the Weaver shots being seen hitting trailblazers and dire? Or green armored newbs... Are the Mesmer hitting tanky players? Or glass cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 @"SWI.4127" That last post only quoted you... wasn't really directed AT you. Didn't mean to rant your way. :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > But again, it's power. Its what people have been screaming for. > > The condi thread was something like 60-75% get rid of condi (yeah I probably made up that stat, but it feels like that) and when power gets buffs: deadeye, weaver; and used more: Rev, reaper, Mesmer, > > People lose their collective mind. > > (Not everyone... and yes, all of the power could be toned down some.. yes hyperbole) > > Booms get corrupted, people get hit by more damage. > > Are these CoRs hitting heavy armor tanks? Or more glassy builds. > > Are the Weaver shots being seen hitting trailblazers and dire? Or green armored newbs... > > Are the Mesmer hitting tanky players? Or glass cannons. Yes imbalance between condi/power is the main problem in the mode. You also touched on another big imbalance with stat combos when you're mentioning glass cannon builds vs trailblazers/dire. My problem is CoR is a cut above the other power-based skills. I guess maybe your point is let's deal with the bigger issue first. I just brought it up because someone mentioned CoR as the way to counter Scourge. I wasn't trying to say "Power damage is the *real* problem". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @SWI.4127 said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > But again, it's power. Its what people have been screaming for. > > > > The condi thread was something like 60-75% get rid of condi (yeah I probably made up that stat, but it feels like that) and when power gets buffs: deadeye, weaver; and used more: Rev, reaper, Mesmer, > > > > People lose their collective mind. > > > > (Not everyone... and yes, all of the power could be toned down some.. yes hyperbole) > > > > Booms get corrupted, people get hit by more damage. > > > > Are these CoRs hitting heavy armor tanks? Or more glassy builds. > > > > Are the Weaver shots being seen hitting trailblazers and dire? Or green armored newbs... > > > > Are the Mesmer hitting tanky players? Or glass cannons. > > Yes imbalance between condi/power is the main problem in the mode. You also touched on another big imbalance with stat combos when you're mentioning glass cannon builds vs trailblazers/dire. My problem is CoR is a cut above the other power-based skills. I guess maybe your point is let's deal with the bigger issue first. I just brought it up because someone mentioned CoR as the way to counter Scourge. I wasn't trying to say "Power damage is the *real* problem". I hear you. And you weren't the only one to bring up CoR. That's why I posted further down it wasn't just at you lol., didn't mean to come across to you as an kitten . :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @Svarty.8019 said: > The real question is how do they make Vanilla Necro viable without making Scourge even more OP? But nobody other than necros (including the devs) is interested in thinking about that. theres a way.. Buy PoF... Wonder IF core specs should have a Elite traitline as well :\ that probably would fix some stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > didn't mean to come across to you as an kitten . :# That's okay, you didn't come across like that. Some of your posts made me think a little further into this skill and the bigger picture, so I appreciate the back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorWunderbar.5037 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 The problem people have with both scourge and rev is the lack of trades off you make in order to be successful. Scourges dont have to sacrifice much in terms of health or armor in order to do well against a group. Trailblazers, Cele, Dire all promote no-sacrifice playstyle. I can not only strip boons, do insane amounts of damage, and condi pressure without having to risk anything. Its the same thing with Revenant. Revs get 2 heals (herald being one of the best in the game), a VERY high damage 1200 range 4 second cd skill, access to on demand resistance, good mobility along with having decent starting health and armor. So again, there isn't much to sacrifice in terms of being successful for a power rev (which is only a problem now because of lack of protection availability thanks to necro). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @juno.1840 said: > > @Jski.6180 said: > > Scourge has a few problems with it that need to be address and its going to be painful to do it. > > > > Scourge are to tankly. As a necro it should be just as tankly as its life force but because of scourge not "whereing" its mana like pool its able to keep barrier on it self with out giving up its cast much like a core necor dose or reaper. This lets the scourge get heal by there team mate at all times and still have a cover over tool to hid there hp from attks. > > The gear makes the condi-build tanky. Technically the scourge is a less tanky due to loss of Death/Reaper's shroud. Yeah there's a barrier but that's a weak replacement for shroud. It's a trade-off for having the shades available all the time. > Barrier is a support mechanic, and can be applied to allies. This makes Scourges stronger in numbers > @DoctorWunderbar.5037 said: > The problem people have with both scourge and rev is the lack of trades off you make in order to be successful. > > Scourges dont have to sacrifice much in terms of health or armor in order to do well against a group. Trailblazers, Cele, Dire all promote no-sacrifice playstyle. I can not only strip boons, do insane amounts of damage, and condi pressure without having to risk anything. Its the same thing with Revenant. > > Revs get 2 heals (herald being one of the best in the game), a VERY high damage 1200 range 4 second cd skill, access to on demand resistance, good mobility along with having decent starting health and armor. So again, there isn't much to sacrifice in terms of being successful for a power rev (which is only a problem now because of lack of protection availability thanks to necro). > Rev is extremely weak to condition/cc pressure. Also CoR, while strong is easily mitigated by proper positioning. It only hits on level terrain, and cannot hit anything beyond that like targets on a wall, siege etc. Scourge sacrifices Shroud in exchange for barriers and shade skills. In order to maximize damage, you basically need to spam your shades skills which will cost you a ton of life force and can leave you vulnerable. Those shade skills are also important for defense, as well as offense so you always have to be careful to manage your life force and cooldowns. Stat combos are not unique to any class, so its not a fair comparison. Any class can be tanky and do a lot of damage with the right gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @DoctorWunderbar.5037 said: > The problem people have with both scourge and rev is the lack of trades off you make in order to be successful. > > Scourges dont have to sacrifice much in terms of health or armor in order to do well against a group. Trailblazers, Cele, Dire all promote no-sacrifice playstyle. I can not only strip boons, do insane amounts of damage, and condi pressure without having to risk anything. Its the same thing with Revenant. > > Revs get 2 heals (herald being one of the best in the game), a VERY high damage 1200 range 4 second cd skill, access to on demand resistance, good mobility along with having decent starting health and armor. So again, there isn't much to sacrifice in terms of being successful for a power rev (which is only a problem now because of lack of protection availability thanks to necro). > And? Build more toughness. Take more defensive traits. Increase vitality. If you are an Ele, move. Often, stay in the true backline. Never played rev. Only time a power rev causes me trouble is when I am not paying attention. That is one problem running in a blob. (Errr Zerg) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 So... Protection keeps rev from being successful, but is corrupted by scourge that gets close enough or a SB that happens to hit the blob with their bubble. So then the rev hammer bolt becomes effective from that long range. Kinda sounds like rat wells with power necro wells on the frontline with venom share thieves. With metornado on top of them. Still takes three classes to pull off, and some class (tank of sorts) to bait them out. So.. What has changed is that we are slowly moving away from the boon train into condi because people cant stop vomiting up their boons even though they know those same boons are going to get corrupted and turned back on them in the way of conditions and then they are going to complain that they basically killed their own people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorWunderbar.5037 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @"X T D.6458" said: > > @juno.1840 said: > > > @Jski.6180 said: > > > Scourge has a few problems with it that need to be address and its going to be painful to do it. > > > > > > Scourge are to tankly. As a necro it should be just as tankly as its life force but because of scourge not "whereing" its mana like pool its able to keep barrier on it self with out giving up its cast much like a core necor dose or reaper. This lets the scourge get heal by there team mate at all times and still have a cover over tool to hid there hp from attks. > > > > The gear makes the condi-build tanky. Technically the scourge is a less tanky due to loss of Death/Reaper's shroud. Yeah there's a barrier but that's a weak replacement for shroud. It's a trade-off for having the shades available all the time. > > > > Barrier is a support mechanic, and can be applied to allies. This makes Scourges stronger in numbers > > @DoctorWunderbar.5037 said: > > The problem people have with both scourge and rev is the lack of trades off you make in order to be successful. > > > > Scourges dont have to sacrifice much in terms of health or armor in order to do well against a group. Trailblazers, Cele, Dire all promote no-sacrifice playstyle. I can not only strip boons, do insane amounts of damage, and condi pressure without having to risk anything. Its the same thing with Revenant. > > > > Revs get 2 heals (herald being one of the best in the game), a VERY high damage 1200 range 4 second cd skill, access to on demand resistance, good mobility along with having decent starting health and armor. So again, there isn't much to sacrifice in terms of being successful for a power rev (which is only a problem now because of lack of protection availability thanks to necro). > > > > Rev is extremely weak to condition/cc pressure. Also CoR, while strong is easily mitigated by proper positioning. It only hits on level terrain, and cannot hit anything beyond that like targets on a wall, siege etc. > > Scourge sacrifices Shroud in exchange for barriers and shade skills. In order to maximize damage, you basically need to spam your shades skills which will cost you a ton of life force and can leave you vulnerable. Those shade skills are also important for defense, as well as offense so you always have to be careful to manage your life force and cooldowns. > > Stat combos are not unique to any class, so its not a fair comparison. Any class can be tanky and do a lot of damage with the right gear. How is having access to resistance on demand being weak to conditions? Or having an elite skill that makes you take 50% less condition damage? Or a heal skill that removes conditions? Also I like how rev's weaknesses are literal bugs in the game. "Obstructed" by tiny hills and valleys and by walls? You dont say? Good thing theres Hammer 5 and 3 as well as auto attack. If you going to say "well it cant hit people on top of a wall therefore its not overpowered", then every class isnt overpowered because thats the whole point of walls. Holosmiths cant hit over walls, scourges can't even hit over walls now? Are scourges now no longer overpowered? I don't think anyone who has done group play as a scourge has had a reasonable issue with a lack of lifeforce either. Its insanely easy to generate (even out of combat too, thanks minions!) along with having skills that generate lifeforce every time you are hit. And cooldowns are not an issue when you have a sigil that gives you 33% cooldown reduction for 6 seconds every 10 seconds. You should have no issues with cooldowns on F2 which is your condi clear. Stat combinations are available to everyone yes, but are only overpowered on certain classes because they can abuse them more. No one complains about burn firebrand, because its a one condition build that SACRIFICES other things to do its job. And no one complains about Power Holosmith, because it has to sacrifice armor and range to do significant damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @DoctorWunderbar.5037 said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > @Jski.6180 said: > > > > Scourge has a few problems with it that need to be address and its going to be painful to do it. > > > > > > > > Scourge are to tankly. As a necro it should be just as tankly as its life force but because of scourge not "whereing" its mana like pool its able to keep barrier on it self with out giving up its cast much like a core necor dose or reaper. This lets the scourge get heal by there team mate at all times and still have a cover over tool to hid there hp from attks. > > > > > > The gear makes the condi-build tanky. Technically the scourge is a less tanky due to loss of Death/Reaper's shroud. Yeah there's a barrier but that's a weak replacement for shroud. It's a trade-off for having the shades available all the time. > > > > > > > Barrier is a support mechanic, and can be applied to allies. This makes Scourges stronger in numbers > > > @DoctorWunderbar.5037 said: > > > The problem people have with both scourge and rev is the lack of trades off you make in order to be successful. > > > > > > Scourges dont have to sacrifice much in terms of health or armor in order to do well against a group. Trailblazers, Cele, Dire all promote no-sacrifice playstyle. I can not only strip boons, do insane amounts of damage, and condi pressure without having to risk anything. Its the same thing with Revenant. > > > > > > Revs get 2 heals (herald being one of the best in the game), a VERY high damage 1200 range 4 second cd skill, access to on demand resistance, good mobility along with having decent starting health and armor. So again, there isn't much to sacrifice in terms of being successful for a power rev (which is only a problem now because of lack of protection availability thanks to necro). > > > > > > > Rev is extremely weak to condition/cc pressure. Also CoR, while strong is easily mitigated by proper positioning. It only hits on level terrain, and cannot hit anything beyond that like targets on a wall, siege etc. > > > > Scourge sacrifices Shroud in exchange for barriers and shade skills. In order to maximize damage, you basically need to spam your shades skills which will cost you a ton of life force and can leave you vulnerable. Those shade skills are also important for defense, as well as offense so you always have to be careful to manage your life force and cooldowns. > > > > Stat combos are not unique to any class, so its not a fair comparison. Any class can be tanky and do a lot of damage with the right gear. > > How is having access to resistance on demand being weak to conditions? Or having an elite skill that makes you take 50% less condition damage? Or a heal skill that removes conditions? Also I like how rev's weaknesses are literal bugs in the game. "Obstructed" by tiny hills and valleys and by walls? You dont say? Good thing theres Hammer 5 and 3 as well as auto attack. The resistance comes with a high energy cost, and it pulls other people' conditions onto yourself, since its a boon it can be removed/corrupted leaving you with a bunch of condition stacks on you with no cleanse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 I don't really understand why people are even asking questions about balance. ANet can't balance for anything and they've shown ineptitude since even before HoT. The expansions just exacerbated the problem. Expecting anything less indicates you were either playing something OP and/or just not really informed about the game-state :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sreoom.3690 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 It's kind of refreshing hearing the WvW melee/boon train characters feeling consequences of the battle....just say'n Don't fret too much, I'm sure the Nerf is coming soon, Anet caters to the melee professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @Sreoom.3690 said: > It's kind of refreshing hearing the WvW melee/boon train characters feeling consequences of the battle....just say'n > > Don't fret too much, I'm sure the Nerf is coming soon, Anet caters to the melee professions. "Insert doubt meme here" Just expect more resistance spam next expantion.... and another class to rip boon and another class better than scourge, more aoe's.. The reason they want to add barrier to all classes or most classes is to avoid actually balance.. and keep adding more of the same each expantion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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