Help against Condi Mirage

[NeedCoffee.1402]

> @Nemesis.7896 said:

> One of Arena net loved class.

>

> You should burst them so they dont kill you in seconds with confusion, but they have an army of clones and 90% evade rate., plus invisibility and teleport.

>

> Their solution : Nerf warriors.

 

This times 100. Spellbreaker was the solution to mirage. Mirage players knew this. So nerf Spellbreaker ever so slightly and now it's garbage. (oh but it was so broken....lol)

 

The new solution? Play mirage. Ride this kitten bandwagon until it stops. Shove this kitten crap right back in their face.

[Morwath.9817]

> @NeedCoffee.1402 said:

> > @Nemesis.7896 said:

> > One of Arena net loved class.

> >

> > You should burst them so they dont kill you in seconds with confusion, but they have an army of clones and 90% evade rate., plus invisibility and teleport.

> >

> > Their solution : Nerf warriors.

>

> This times 100. Spellbreaker was the solution to mirage. Mirage players knew this. So nerf Spellbreaker ever so slightly and now it's garbage. (oh but it was so broken....lol)

>

> The new solution? Play mirage. Ride this kitten bandwagon until it stops. Shove this kitten crap right back in their face.

 

Spellbreaker isn't garbage at all.

[ButterPeanut.9746]

spellbreaker can stailmate the fight you just need to cycle your resistance. In a solo queue setting, I don't think its worth it to take endure pain anymore, as there are so many more condi options vs power options, and you don't really need EP to win power matchups. In addition, you aren't going to be in constant communication w/ your firebrand to cleanse you.

 

Instead, Run berserker stances, featherfoot grance, and break enchantments. You can cyle through your resistance w/ these two utilities and use full counter to cover some downtime.

 

Got to legend with this setup

[Burnfall.9573]

Here is a benchmark rotation test video of clone/condi mirage dps by a mesmer player-- build included

-many are asking if this is a bug or has anet nerfed it etc... It's a serious matter and serious action must be taken

 

here goes; 45.6k dps

 

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @Burnfall.9573 said:

> Here is a benchmark rotation test video of clone/condi mirage dps by a mesmer player-- build included

> -many are asking if this is a bug or has anet nerfed it etc... It's a serious matter and serious action must be taken

>

> here goes; 45.6k dps

>

>

Can you please not derail the thread with a PvE bug? We are talking about PvP here.

 

> @vana.5467 said:

> > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > Jaunt broken? What? :D Just another sign how clueless people are about classes they don't play. You either use it for condi stacking, which is kitten in 95% of the cases, or as a very short blink, which is very useful tool for mobility. How is that overpowered as an elite?

> >

> > As these 2 traits are entirely different mechanics (disengage and condi stacking), this is what you have depending on the situation:

> > - an 1350 range blink with 3 casts and 20 sec recharge

> > - 9 stacks of confusion with 3 casts and 20 sec recharge.

> >

> > You also have 1 (!) condi removal per count. In the current meta where there are 5 condis applied every second. Not even worth talking about. Then you have Self Deception trait which is rather useless because there are better alternatives in the same traitline (and a bit clunky as well)

> >

> > Please, again, elaborate, how is that overpowered?

> >

> > I even remember seeing tons of posts in Mirage thread about how useless Jaunt is, especially at PoF launch.

> >

> > There are multiple things you could complain about when it comes to Mirage, but Jaunt is DEFINITELY not one of them.

> >

> > FYI: with Soulbeast you are very likely to die to a Mirage anyway, it's not built to handle the amount of condis the current meta carries. Druid is the only build as a ranger currently to properly run in sPVP

>

> Primarily because one of the big balancing factors of mesmer has always been its lack of in-combat mobility. Jaunt+sword ambush covers this weakness far too well - especially when Elusive Mind already covers another big weakness of core mesmer (hard CC). It's not so much Jaunt in isolation, but the combination of mobility+stealth+stunbreaks+evade/invuln frames.

That's a legit point, but it's simply unfair to point out Jaunt, because in itself is not the issue.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > Here is a benchmark rotation test video of clone/condi mirage dps by a mesmer player-- build included

> > -many are asking if this is a bug or has anet nerfed it etc... It's a serious matter and serious action must be taken

> >

> > here goes; 45.6k dps

> >

> >

> Can you please not derail the thread with a PvE bug? We are talking about PvP here.

 

This is a dps benchmark test. This is relevant to condi mirage+broken mesmer matter that has the community in uproar. These dps benchmark numbers are critical and must be taken serious to address mesmer/mirage. This is a serious matter and i encourage you to address it to Anet as well.

 

 

[Ara.4569]

> @Felipe.1807 said:

> I guess is time to Anet to re-evaluate what they want to sPvP be, cause this aint looking good...

Irrelevant. They don't want sPvP to be anything.

 

By the way, I'm curious about Grouch. He was one of the very few persons both popular and vocal about balance issues.

What happened to him since he got hired by ANet, and silenced by contract ?

 

[Burnfall.9573]

> @Ara.4569 said:

> > @Felipe.1807 said:

> > I guess is time to Anet to re-evaluate what they want to sPvP be, cause this aint looking good...

> Irrelevant. They don't want sPvP to be anything.

>

> By the way, I'm curious about Grouch. He was one of the very few persons both popular and vocal about balance issues.

> What happened to him since he got hired by ANet, and silenced by contract ?

>

 

He certainly was.

Grouch left ArenaNet on December 2 2016.

'Even before joining ArenaNet, Josh was a major part of the Guild Wars 2 sPvP community. He hosted Guild Wars 2 Guru's monthly PvP podcast State of the Game'

'Josh: Overall we want to make PvP in Guild Wars 2 enjoyable to play while maintaining it's competitive nature. As we move forward we will continue to watch and groom the Guild Wars 2 competitive scene to maintain the goal of keeping it fun, competitive, and entertaining to watch'

 

'Josh: Our in-game PvP League system offers a clear path for amateur PvP teams to progress and grow and eventually take on our most competitive teams'

 

-That was his goal and his dream for pvp.

He was a true believer in pvp being competitive-learning, growing and be rewarded of your efforts-

[Za Shaloc.3908]

As a Soulbeast, I keep my pet on passive while I stack 25 might while stealthed from Call of the Wild, pretend to run away, then use OWP into Hunter's Call and sic my Smokescale on the mes so it gets hit by the OWP ticks from its Smoke Assault too (will usually trigger Smoke Assault as soon as you command it to attack). The burst from OWP is pretty insane, and during this time, I'll be healing too, which ideally will immobilize or at least slow/cripple them. I'll then follow-up by merging and Smoke Assaulting, then hoping to land the merged knockdown and Worldly Impact into a nice LB 4 and 2. Does this work? Definitely not always, but it's a cheesy strategy that I feel is oftentimes my only chance as a Soulbeast.

[Hooglese.4860]

Spellbreaker (and scourge) is the best way to go. Dragonhunter is still a decent Mesmer counter since it can kill clones passively. Mirage needs a nerf, and Ive been saying this for a while as a fan of the spec.

 

Pre-nerf, full-counter basically took all mesmers out of the game, but since it's anet they nerfed SB in the stupidest way, so warrior has a harder time. Some tips

* dodge 2s after they stealth (at 3s torch burst activates).

* Kill clones if you don't have confusion. The meta mirage build has limited clone generation, so clones are up for a long time then you can kill them in 1-2 hits.

* If clones charge you, that's a shatter. Dodge it.

* when they swap to staff, force them back. Staff isnt very powerful outside of chaos storm, and you can easily outdps them at melee range.

* when their on sword, you won't be able to kite them. You'll have to dodge the dazing lunge and only use long casts if you have stability or they've already used their dash. They'll be able to use it 3-5 times, which sucks. Also if a clone appears beside you, dodge/block.

* Mirages don't have boon rip on condi builds, outside of the weapon swap one, so resistance works on them.

* they also have limited condi removal, so blasting them with condis works too. Any form of condi spammer with good cover conditions can do exceptional damage to a mirage.

* lastly, they run real fast. The only answer to this is a Daredevil, who run faster. Revenants can keep up, but mirages are condi builds so revs already at a disadvantage.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

You're just sort of screwed unless you can completely catch them off guard or overwhelm their clone generation with numbers. Mesmers can pretty much engage/disengage at will like Thieves so a condi bomb that fails is just "bait" for the second condi bomb that comes out after sitting in stealth.

 

[Rodzynald.5897]

Fighting mirage is not about how good you are, but when a mirage makes a mistake. If you can take advantage of it, it's good. But high-end mirage players won't leave you any openings, if they do, they will fill it with invulnerabilities or teleports/invisibility. The ammount of effort to kill a mirage is too much compared to how easy it is for them to pressure safely behind a wall of being invincible/untouchable. Is there any relevant downside to mirages to begin with?

The only counter I found for them is a quick, well landed burst when they are rotating between points/caught off guard. For example a hammer guard burst will insta down them.

 

P.S.

I wish there was a % of damage going back at mesmers for every illusion that is destroyed before it is shattered :D

[Wolfric.9380]

I main tempest and condi mirrage (and most crono´s) are my worst oponents if they know how to play. (scourge is also difficult but better to avoid/ouptlay and death mostly comes from a mistake).

I have a build that performs well but it´s quite special and i think only dragonhunter can do this reliable. It´s fighting the mesmer with AOE and passive damage.

You fight them with fire aura and retaliation while being able to block and outtank him and let him burn down .... DH has more burns/blocks, ele can use lighning rod and shock aura ... But it´s still hard and not "Meta". Well i always say don´t play meta counter it ... but that´s another story.

[Derps.7421]

> @Rodzynald.5897 said:

> Fighting mirage is not about how good you are, but when a mirage makes a mistake. If you can take advantage of it, it's good. But high-end mirage players won't leave you any openings, if they do, they will fill it with invulnerabilities or teleports/invisibility. The ammount of effort to kill a mirage is too much compared to how easy it is for them to pressure safely behind a wall of being invincible/untouchable. Is there any relevant downside to mirages to begin with?

> The only counter I found for them is a quick, well landed burst when they are rotating between points/caught off guard. For example a hammer guard burst will insta down them.

>

> P.S.

> I wish there was a % of damage going back at mesmers for every illusion that is destroyed before it is shattered :D

 

That doesn't even really work though because they just dodge for the stunbreak and GG their gone.

 

The only thing that beats mirage is guess what a better mirage or a mesmer with moa from stealth

[sephiroth.4217]

Just keeping it simple from the classes I play most:

- Warrior // Cleansing Ire and making sure I lock down / Burst asap or I'll die.

- Thief // High burst damage, kiting and P/P unload

- Necro // I play power reaper so the general reaper CC chain with high burst damage after they chase me with spectral walk on or wait for the +1 gank when he's busy.

- Elementalist // I usually play Staff Tempest and it's easy to fight most mesmers if you stand inside your Lightning fields, ontop of your earth line, chill fields and general AoE damage.

 

Most important thing for me about fighting a Mesmer is:

- Tab targetting

- Dodging Towards clones

- Not using my longest stun until I see them use double dodge or if they drop a portal to escape.

 

 

The common factor about the ones that die is *greed*. I don't know as of yet how to fight the good ones that have attrition, seems to go either way for me, hopefully it helps.

[alksoe.6198]

> @Kirin.7306 said:

> lol i remember seeing one n the distance

> "oh boy here we go!"

> she goes invis

> nothing around for 3 secs

> then i die

> lol

 

This happened to me way too many times. I actually got triggered. I've only been playing half a year but the thought of this just seems way OP

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @alksoe.6198 said:

> > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > lol i remember seeing one n the distance

> > "oh boy here we go!"

> > she goes invis

> > nothing around for 3 secs

> > then i die

> > lol

>

> This happened to me way too many times. I actually got triggered. I've only been playing half a year but the thought of this just seems way OP

I don't get it. The stealth burst is by far the most predictable condi burst ever. Use any kind of defense 2 seconds after their stealth and you have just successfully survived the first burst unscathed.

 

I'm playing Power Mesmer, so getting hit by any of the condi bursts is almost game over for me, yet I still win quite a few 1v1-s against condis (without any condi removal except Jaunt). It's all about predicting and looking for the open windows (because there are quite a few of them). Bait the mirage cloaks , then the blurred frenzy, then hit, they are really squishy when there is no cloak.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > @alksoe.6198 said:

> > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > lol i remember seeing one n the distance

> > > "oh boy here we go!"

> > > she goes invis

> > > nothing around for 3 secs

> > > then i die

> > > lol

> >

> > This happened to me way too many times. I actually got triggered. I've only been playing half a year but the thought of this just seems way OP

> I don't get it. The stealth burst is by far the most predictable condi burst ever. Use any kind of defense 2 seconds after their stealth and you have just successfully survived the first burst unscathed.

>

> I'm playing Power Mesmer, so getting hit by any of the condi bursts is almost game over for me, yet I still win quite a few 1v1-s against condis (without any condi removal except Jaunt). It's all about predicting and looking for the open windows (because there are quite a few of them). Bait the mirage cloaks , then the blurred frenzy, then hit, they are really squishy when there is no cloak.

 

Stealth inherently makes the burst unpredictable. There is nothing predictable about an attack coming from something you can't see.

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @Derps.7421 said:

> > @Rodzynald.5897 said:

> > Fighting mirage is not about how good you are, but when a mirage makes a mistake. If you can take advantage of it, it's good. But high-end mirage players won't leave you any openings, if they do, they will fill it with invulnerabilities or teleports/invisibility. The ammount of effort to kill a mirage is too much compared to how easy it is for them to pressure safely behind a wall of being invincible/untouchable. Is there any relevant downside to mirages to begin with?

> > The only counter I found for them is a quick, well landed burst when they are rotating between points/caught off guard. For example a hammer guard burst will insta down them.

> >

> > P.S.

> > I wish there was a % of damage going back at mesmers for every illusion that is destroyed before it is shattered :D

>

> That doesn't even really work though because they just dodge for the stunbreak and GG their gone.

>

> The only thing that beats mirage is guess what a better mirage or a mesmer with moa from stealth

 

Trust me, hammer burst combo does wonders. I've already taken down a bunch of mirages, one shot. Even though its hard to land the burst so right, that the damage registers in less than 0.5 second, it is doable. The one thing that needs to be made sure of is that a mirage has to be completely unaware of hammer burst being landed at him.

If someone dodges randomly while in a teamfight, then that is just a stream of luck (given that they didn't know the burst was coming).

Long story short, we have to try a lot harder to kill a mirage than a mirage has to kill us, or not to get killed at all. It's almost like chrono bunker from S1 but this time you get a lot more damage with it. It's the mirage that dictates the pace of a fight by default.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

The problem isn't stealth. It's the stupidly high amount of evades + invuln that makes this ridiculously strong in the hands of a competent player. There's no punishment for failure to dodge a CC. Pair it with heal mantra + adventure runes + double energy sigils and you have a ridiculous evade machine. **140 endurance every ~13 seconds.** And that's not accounting for the fact that all mirages get vigor on shatter by default. So the number is even higher. Then take into account sword 2 and invuln and you can see why this class is so disgusting in duels.

 

Proposal

 

* Increase the ICD of adventure runes to 20s

* Increase the ICD of energy runes to 18s

* Elusive Mind no longer breaks stun. Gain an additional 1s of superspeed after **successfully** dodging an attack(2s of superspeed when you take into account the minor trait).

 

Mirage now balanced and PvE players don't lose their DPS or whatever.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @shadowpass.4236 said:

> > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > > @alksoe.6198 said:

> > > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > > lol i remember seeing one n the distance

> > > > "oh boy here we go!"

> > > > she goes invis

> > > > nothing around for 3 secs

> > > > then i die

> > > > lol

> > >

> > > This happened to me way too many times. I actually got triggered. I've only been playing half a year but the thought of this just seems way OP

> > I don't get it. The stealth burst is by far the most predictable condi burst ever. Use any kind of defense 2 seconds after their stealth and you have just successfully survived the first burst unscathed.

> >

> > I'm playing Power Mesmer, so getting hit by any of the condi bursts is almost game over for me, yet I still win quite a few 1v1-s against condis (without any condi removal except Jaunt). It's all about predicting and looking for the open windows (because there are quite a few of them). Bait the mirage cloaks , then the blurred frenzy, then hit, they are really squishy when there is no cloak.

>

> Stealth inherently makes the burst unpredictable. There is nothing predictable about an attack coming from something you can't see.

Excuse me? Torch4 gives you 3 seconds of stealth. That means a 99% of mirages will start their burst 2 seconds after going to stealth. How is that not predictable?

[Cynz.9437]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > @shadowpass.4236 said:

> > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > > > @alksoe.6198 said:

> > > > > @Kirin.7306 said:

> > > > > lol i remember seeing one n the distance

> > > > > "oh boy here we go!"

> > > > > she goes invis

> > > > > nothing around for 3 secs

> > > > > then i die

> > > > > lol

> > > >

> > > > This happened to me way too many times. I actually got triggered. I've only been playing half a year but the thought of this just seems way OP

> > > I don't get it. The stealth burst is by far the most predictable condi burst ever. Use any kind of defense 2 seconds after their stealth and you have just successfully survived the first burst unscathed.

> > >

> > > I'm playing Power Mesmer, so getting hit by any of the condi bursts is almost game over for me, yet I still win quite a few 1v1-s against condis (without any condi removal except Jaunt). It's all about predicting and looking for the open windows (because there are quite a few of them). Bait the mirage cloaks , then the blurred frenzy, then hit, they are really squishy when there is no cloak.

> >

> > Stealth inherently makes the burst unpredictable. There is nothing predictable about an attack coming from something you can't see.

> Excuse me? Torch4 gives you 3 seconds of stealth. That means a 99% of mirages will start their burst 2 seconds after going to stealth. How is that not predictable?

 

^^ this. There are issues with mirage but stealth burst is probably easiest thing to dodge unless he has help from thief.

 

Also what ftopscrub said, evades + invuls on top of high condi pressure is what makes mirage so hard to deal with atm.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

I just hope if there is going to be a nerf, only condi mirage will be targeted, not the whole concept (e.g. I'm fine with an IH nerf). Power is actually playable on higher levels now after so long, and it's probably the most fun thing I've ever played in gw2 pvp.

[cryorion.9532]

Seriously, do some people try to reason that mirage is not broken or that it is easy to dealt with? How can class which already has huge escapability have stunbreak on dodge and elite which is basically port spam... is beyond my understanding. I can't wait for justified nerfs.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @cryorion.9532 said:

> elite which is basically port spam...

Love the hyperboles though.

 

Noone said it is easy to deal with btw.