Belgium says loot boxes are gambling, wants them banned in Europe

[Pifil.5193]

> @"MattDu.7123" said:

>

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

>

> > I dont mean a specific retailer, or the like. In what country, or at least a province/state, can I walk up to any merchant (or landlord, hospital, babysitter, etc) and have him required to accept bitcoin as payment?

> >

> >

> In what state in america can i give them a british pound or a japanese yen that is legal tender and have him required to except it as payment? I dont get your point.

>

> One pound notes were introduced by the Bank of England for the first time in 1797, its a piece of paper thats used instead of real goods, but dont worry it will never catch on.

> Bitcoin is only 10 years old

>

> Last time i went to McDonalds I didnt even use money i press a card against a machine. You can pay with your phone. I dont have a key for my front door, its a tag. A robot mows the lawn. And there's a ridiculous rumor that one day the motorised carriage will drive itself.

>

> The Netherlands has several retail chains which no longer accept cash payments and its not illegal for them to do it.

 

That's not the issue, you said:

 

> Bitcoin is a virtual currency that is now gaining the same rights and laws as real money.

 

I believe that Ashen's point is that if it has the same rights and laws as "real money" it would _have_ to be accepted as legal tender somewhere.

 

McDonalds and those retail chains in the Netherlands still accept euro, correct? That's because the euro is legal tender in the Netherlands. So when you went to McDonalds you did use real money. When you pressed your debit card against the machine it effectively transfers real money (i.e. euro) from your bank account to McDonald's bank account or if it was a credit card it charges the euro price to your credit card; so you're not using cash and coins but you're still dealing in euro.

 

Unless I'm mistaken Bitcoin is not legal tender in any country. Some companies accept it, most don't, several used to accept it but no longer do because it's far too volatile as a currency. Bitcoin and the slew of other cryptocurrencies are being traded more like commodities than currencies, (a lot of these cryptocurrencies prices are being driven purely by "pump and dump" cycles and people will get burned over that, make sure it's not you).

[MattDu.7123]

I can walk into scans.co.uk retail shop in bolton uk and buy a graphics card with bitcoin. First its where can you spend it, then its not in shops, now its volatile. Will it be replaced is it any good IDC

 

You can buy goods with virtual currency.

And virtual gambling can now be illegal.

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"MattDu.7123" said:

> >

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> >

> > > I dont mean a specific retailer, or the like. In what country, or at least a province/state, can I walk up to any merchant (or landlord, hospital, babysitter, etc) and have him required to accept bitcoin as payment?

> > >

> > >

> > In what state in america can i give them a british pound or a japanese yen that is legal tender and have him required to except it as payment? I dont get your point.

> >

> > One pound notes were introduced by the Bank of England for the first time in 1797, its a piece of paper thats used instead of real goods, but dont worry it will never catch on.

> > Bitcoin is only 10 years old

> >

> > Last time i went to McDonalds I didnt even use money i press a card against a machine. You can pay with your phone. I dont have a key for my front door, its a tag. A robot mows the lawn. And there's a ridiculous rumor that one day the motorised carriage will drive itself.

> >

> > The Netherlands has several retail chains which no longer accept cash payments and its not illegal for them to do it.

>

> That's not the issue, you said:

>

> > Bitcoin is a virtual currency that is now gaining the same rights and laws as real money.

>

> I believe that Ashen's point is that if it has the same rights and laws as "real money" it would _have_ to be accepted as legal tender somewhere.

>

> McDonalds and those retail chains in the Netherlands still accept euro, correct? That's because the euro is legal tender in the Netherlands. So when you went to McDonalds you did use real money. When you pressed your debit card against the machine it effectively transfers real money (i.e. euro) from your bank account to McDonald's bank account or if it was a credit card it charges the euro price to your credit card; so you're not using cash and coins but you're still dealing in euro.

>

> Unless I'm mistaken Bitcoin is not legal tender in any country. Some companies accept it, most don't, several used to accept it but no longer do because it's far too volatile as a currency. Bitcoin and the slew of other cryptocurrencies are being traded more like commodities than currencies, (a lot of these cryptocurrencies prices are being driven purely by "pump and dump" cycles and people will get burned over that, make sure it's not you).

 

Pretty much this.

 

There is a marked difference between some odd retailer being willing to take it and being required to take it. A local retailer that is willing to accept canned goods as payment for their own product (on a day dedicated to charity) has not canned creamed corn the same as legal currency.

 

And of course there are places where merchants must accept the British Pound.

[Silmar Alech.4305]

There is more information available. The german news site heise.de [posted an article](https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Lootboxes-Spieleaufsicht-der-Niederlande-fordert-Aenderungen-an-populaeren-Titeln-4028260.html?seite=all "posted an article") where the 4 companies are named whose loot boxes are deemed against the law in the Netherlands.

They link an [english press release](https://www.kansspelautoriteit.nl/publish/library/6/press_release_loot_boxes_19_april_2018_-_en.pdf "english press release") from the Netherlands Gaming Authority about the case.

The 4 games are mentioned: FIFA 18, Dota2, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds and Rocket League have loot boxes that are against the law, the Netherlands Gaming Authority says.

 

From the press release:

 

> The analyses that are currently available indicate that all of the loot boxes that were studied

> could be addictive. Loot boxes are similar to gambling games such as slot machines and

> roulette in terms of design and mechanisms. There are, however, no indications that loot

> boxes are being opened on a large scale by problem players and/or addicted players. Socially

> vulnerable groups, such as young people, are being encouraged to play games of chance.

 

and

 

> To date, the supervisory body has not been able to establish that providers of the games

> implement control measures to exclude vulnerable groups such as minors and to prevent

> addiction. The Netherlands Gaming Authority puts the protection of vulnerable groups, such

> as minors, first.

 

[MattDu.7123]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

 

>

> There is a marked difference between some odd retailer being willing to take it and being required to take it. A local retailer that is willing to accept canned goods as payment for their own product (on a day dedicated to charity) has not canned creamed corn the same as legal currency.

>

> And of course there are places where merchants must accept the British Pound.

 

If you want to pick at the bones, then a retailer does not have to except legal currency unless it is for a debt.

 

But getting back to the topic of dicussion.

 

> The gaming authority said "all of the loot boxes that were studied could be addictive".

>

> "Loot boxes are similar to gambling games such as slot machines and roulette in terms of design and mechanisms," it said.

>

> As a result, the gaming authority demanded publishers and developers modify loot boxes with "addiction-sensitive" elements. That is, they must remove "almost winning" effects, visual effects and the ability to keep opening loot boxes quickly one after the other. They must also implement measures to exclude vulnerable groups or demonstrate the loot boxes on offer are harmless.

>

 

So not just those obviously classed as gambling it wants all lootboxes to be altered

[Manasa Devi.7958]

Here's a link to the [full publication](https://www.kansspelautoriteit.nl/publish/library/6/onderzoek_naar_loot_boxes_-_een_buit_of_een_last_-_eng.pdf) (English language version) that's been talked about in the last few posts. FYI, it's a link to a PDF document, not a webpage.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

Interesting paragraph:

 

>In-game goods are always obtained when these loot boxes are opened. Some parties use this fact to support their argument that the game is not a game of chance. This argument is not valid. The in-game goods differ and have different market values if they can be traded. It is beyond doubt that the real winner is the person who wins the major, valuable prize with a high market value.

[Ban Sidhe.9637]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Ban Sidhe.9637" said:

> ~snip~

>

> Well, if it is only because the items can be sold for real money then GW2 does not have a problem, there's no in game way to trade items for real money nor is there a third party method to do so as well...unless those items where illegally obtained by the third party site in the first place...though I suppose by some convoluted method they could say that by purchasing in-game gold with gems that you bought with real money is being able to trade items for real cash, I find that a stretch of the imagination, in my opinion.

>

>

 

By my knowledge not a single game offers an in-game way of selling virtual goods directly for real money. Yet there are gold sellers in MMOs since that type of games exist. Every game probably has a section in their EULA saying you're not allowed to sell virtual goods for money, yet people still do.

 

Buying gold with gems has nothing to do with it. You can't sell gems for real money. It's the getting real money for virtual items part that's the problem. And a chance type of way to turn a small amount of value (BLkey) into possibly a large amount of value that can be traded (non-account-bound items) for real money, is gambling. Even when I would sell the non-account-bound item for gold, and turn the gold into real money by becoming a gold seller, it's still the same outcome: Gambling with Black Lion Keys/Chests.

 

Like I said in my very long post above from april 19th (yesterday as I write this), GW2 does have a problem, because half of the possible loot from Black Lion Chests is not account bound and can be traded. Arenanet does not check how it is traded. Some post it on the trading post, and those are visible to the whole gaming community and Arenanet, but nothing in the game is keeping me from giving the item to a friend and having said friend pay me in $ / £ / €.

That is exactly the problem the Dutch Gaming Authority has with lootboxes.

[Orpheal.8263]

> @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> -Germany doesn't like something

> -Tries to change all of Europe

>

> That is essentially why Britain left the EU -shrug-

>

> I greatly prefer a cosmetic/convenience lootbox business model over a required subscription or OPTIONAL subscription model. I don't want the number of fractals I do locked behind tickets in the gem store, or my mount running out of stamina after 2 hours of use and needs some special food from the gemstore.

 

When clueless people talk about politics ... -shrug-

 

First, we - Germany aren't making the decisions about european politics, thats Luxembourg! because its Luxembourg, the countries same named Main Town, where those things are decided for the European Union (EU) for all european countries which are part of the EU officially in the European Court of Justice

We have in european politics only a high word of saying, if not the highest, because Germany is from all european countries of the EU the country with the highest amount of folks people.. no other country has more people that live in one country, than us in Germany, we have over 82 million people that live here, no other european country that is part of the EU gets even CLOSE to us... France, over 66 Million, Spain over 42 Million, Italy 60,5 Million, Belgium 11,3 Million, Netherlands 17,1 Million, Great Britain 60,4 Million - even Great Britain with its big land mass concludign several countries together as a kingdom has much less people that live there, than what we have in Germany.

 

It simply makes sense, that we Germans are always a big part in the european political plans, because we are the biggest european economic power in that continent when seen under just only the EU.

Why do you think was some time ago the president of france Macron here in Germany meeting our chancelor Merkel.. because he was advertising his own european political goals at the meeting with her, because he knows, if he wants to get further with his plans and political goals, he NEEDS the help of germany - or better said, he needs our economic power, our folks peoples tax money that should be used for these goals ...

 

Great Britain is leaving the EU, because they want to become again more independent in a political ways, due to them being not such a big economical power, they have naturally not as much a say in certain decisions, than they often surely would like to have, so they chose to let the people decide, if they want to stay in the EU, or not and their folk voted for leaving the EU - their decision, their consequences they have to live with now, once the Brexit is finally completely over and they are out.

 

Don't know, from where your your negativity towards Germany comes from, but at least stay at the unbiased clear facts that everybody can read and educate themself with via internet within 5 minutes of research ...

[Ban Sidhe.9637]

> @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > -Germany doesn't like something

> > -Tries to change all of Europe

> >

> > That is essentially why Britain left the EU -shrug-

> >

>

> When clueless people talk about politics ... -shrug-

 

When people are unable to read, I'd say..

Since when are Belgium and the Netherlands the same as Germany?

Where does it say any country at all has plans to make this EU law?

All I read here is that the Netherlands has done research, then concluded some games are against the laws that we already had in place.

 

No change of laws, no telling other countries what to do..

Just telling companies they can't do business in the Netherlands if they don't change the way they offer their services.

[Orpheal.8263]

> @"Ban Sidhe.9637" said:

> > @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > -Germany doesn't like something

> > > -Tries to change all of Europe

> > >

> > > That is essentially why Britain left the EU -shrug-

> > >

> >

> > When clueless people talk about politics ... -shrug-

>

> When people are unable to read, I'd say..

> Since when are Belgium and the Netherlands the same as Germany?

 

Read self better first, before you accuse others of not reading ...

I have nowhere said in my last posting, that neither Belgium, nor Netherland are the same as Germany..

The only thing I wanted to make clear is, that it is not Germany, who makes alone any european political decisions and that these decisions are made by the European Court of Justice, that lies in Luxembourg, not Germany...

 

Adamsdjr has written, as if we would be the origin of the whole debate over lootboxes needing to be changed and banned as gambling, because "we don't like "something".

Things like this aren't decided by just only one single country, as if it would be simply something that is deciced over by mere emotions of liking or disking something.

 

Everybody with just a tiny bit of knowlegde about politics just knows, that this is not the way how politics work ...

 

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Ban Sidhe.9637" said:

> > @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > -Germany doesn't like something

> > > -Tries to change all of Europe

> > >

> > > That is essentially why Britain left the EU -shrug-

> > >

> >

> > When clueless people talk about politics ... -shrug-

>

> When people are unable to read, I'd say..

> Since when are Belgium and the Netherlands the same as Germany?

> Where does it say any country at all has plans to make this EU law?

> All I read here is that the Netherlands has done research, then concluded some games are against the laws that we already had in place.

>

> No change of laws, no telling other countries what to do..

> Just telling companies they can't do business in the Netherlands if they don't change the way they offer their services.

 

Guess it will be to bad for Netherlands gamers when companies just pull their games from being sold or accessible from your country, because any smart business that knows the difference between real gambling and what ever your country(I presume based on your post that is where you are from) has deemed to be gambling isn't worth doing business in.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Ban Sidhe.9637" said:

> > > @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> > > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > > -Germany doesn't like something

> > > > -Tries to change all of Europe

> > > >

> > > > That is essentially why Britain left the EU -shrug-

> > > >

> > >

> > > When clueless people talk about politics ... -shrug-

> >

> > When people are unable to read, I'd say..

> > Since when are Belgium and the Netherlands the same as Germany?

> > Where does it say any country at all has plans to make this EU law?

> > All I read here is that the Netherlands has done research, then concluded some games are against the laws that we already had in place.

> >

> > No change of laws, no telling other countries what to do..

> > Just telling companies they can't do business in the Netherlands if they don't change the way they offer their services.

>

> Guess it will be to bad for Netherlands gamers when companies just pull their games from being sold or accessible from your country, because any smart business that knows the difference between real gambling and what ever your country(I presume based on your post that is where you are from) has deemed to be gambling isn't worth doing business in.

What is "real gambling" other than what the law in a particular country holds it to be?

[Ashen.2907]

> @"MattDu.7123" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

>

> >

> > There is a marked difference between some odd retailer being willing to take it and being required to take it. A local retailer that is willing to accept canned goods as payment for their own product (on a day dedicated to charity) has not canned creamed corn the same as legal currency.

> >

> > And of course there are places where merchants must accept the British Pound.

>

> If you want to pick at the bones, then a retailer does not have to except legal currency unless it is for a debt.

>

> But getting back to the topic of dicussion.

>

> > The gaming authority said "all of the loot boxes that were studied could be addictive".

> >

> > "Loot boxes are similar to gambling games such as slot machines and roulette in terms of design and mechanisms," it said.

> >

> > As a result, the gaming authority demanded publishers and developers modify loot boxes with "addiction-sensitive" elements. That is, they must remove "almost winning" effects, visual effects and the ability to keep opening loot boxes quickly one after the other. They must also implement measures to exclude vulnerable groups or demonstrate the loot boxes on offer are harmless.

> >

>

> So not just those obviously classed as gambling it wants all lootboxes to be altered

 

If you reread my initial question to you in this thread I specified debt. I did so because this is a defining element of what constitutes a legal currency.

[Ban Sidhe.9637]

> @"Orpheal.8263" said:

>>

> Read self better first, before you accuse others of not reading ...

> I have nowhere said in my last posting, that neither Belgium, nor Netherland are the same as Germany..

 

That is not what I meant at all.. I also included the quote of the person YOU were quoting (although that was folded into a single line you have to click)

What I meant was that not only was he clueless about politics like you said, he also didn't read very well. I was just backing you up!!

[Ban Sidhe.9637]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Ban Sidhe.9637" said:

> > > @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> > > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > > -Germany doesn't like something

> > > > -Tries to change all of Europe

> > > >

> > > > That is essentially why Britain left the EU -shrug-

> > > >

> > >

> > > When clueless people talk about politics ... -shrug-

> >

> > When people are unable to read, I'd say..

> > Since when are Belgium and the Netherlands the same as Germany?

> > Where does it say any country at all has plans to make this EU law?

> > All I read here is that the Netherlands has done research, then concluded some games are against the laws that we already had in place.

> >

> > No change of laws, no telling other countries what to do..

> > Just telling companies they can't do business in the Netherlands if they don't change the way they offer their services.

>

> Guess it will be to bad for Netherlands gamers when companies just pull their games from being sold or accessible from your country, because any smart business that knows the difference between real gambling and what ever your country(I presume based on your post that is where you are from) has deemed to be gambling isn't worth doing business in.

 

You don't need a law to define gambling.

"play games of chance for money; bet"

"take risky action in the hope of a desired result"

Black Lion Chests fill that description.

 

In GW2, some of the winnings have market value because they're not account bound and can be traded, and that's where the Dutch Gaming Authority draws the line apparently (At least for now). It's easy to make it follow that law: make stuff account bound. It might still be morally questionable exposing kids to stuff like that, but at least it would avoid trouble for a bit.

 

Arenanet's core business is providing a game to play. Not gambling.

US companies have to abide by foreign law all the time, this isn't the first time they can't have it their way. EULAs that companies write up often don't even have much value outside the USA, because they don't follow the law. Other countries often protect consumer rights a lot better than laws in the US do.

Sure, they don't always make sense to ME, but hey, it's their law. Profanity and Sex and Violence have different age restrictions in lots of countries. So games get altered, censored, etc..

 

I remember a game that had to be altered with green blood before they could release it in Germany one time. I can't remember what game it was, it was well over 10 years ago. But there are plenty of examples of games being censored just in Germany. Didn't affect me in the Netherlands. I live right next door to Germany, but we always got the blood and references to certain German historical stuff, just like most other countries.

 

Here's a video of one of the hoops Blizzard jumped through to get World of Warcraft released in China:

 

Loot boxes are somewhat new, and they went unnoticed by governments until shit hit the fan due to the whole Star Wars Battle Front II thing, and it will now probably get added to the list of things they need to take into account before they release a game abroad.

[MattDu.7123]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

>

> If you reread my initial question to you in this thread I specified debt. I did so because this is a defining element of what constitutes a legal currency.

 

And if you reread my first post I said gaining not got. But you still hitched a ride.

 

In earlier posts it was implyed that virtual currency couldn't be treated like real money. When we already have one that is.

And i pointed out that it has only been 10 years and I can now pay a retailer with that virtual currency. What we now class as real money took a little bit longer to get there.

 

> To be fair, the US dollar is not backed by anything physical, and has value because a company (the federal reserve) says so.

 

almost there

 

> Please all powerful, all knowing, all wise, and supremely benevolent government...come take care of me. Dont let me make decisions for myself. Protect me from myself. As one who is merely an adult I should not be allowed to act on my own behalf.

 

Dont let the govermment tell you whats legal currency.

 

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

 

> Guess it will be to bad for Netherlands gamers when companies just pull their games from being sold or accessible from your country, because any smart business that knows the difference between real gambling and what ever your country(I presume based on your post that is where you are from) has deemed to be gambling isn't worth doing business in.

 

So if the rest of the governments follow suit then all the smart business will have to shut up shop?

 

 

[Orpheal.8263]

> @"Ban Sidhe.9637" said:

> > @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> >>

> > Read self better first, before you accuse others of not reading ...

> > I have nowhere said in my last posting, that neither Belgium, nor Netherland are the same as Germany..

>

> That is not what I meant at all.. I also included the quote of the person YOU were quoting (although that was folded into a single line you have to click)

> What I meant was that not only was he clueless about politics like you said, he also didn't read very well. I was just backing you up!!

 

Ah sorry then, then I just misunderstood it the way it came over. Silly me :D Thanks for the back up ^^

PS: guess wouldnt have been misunderstandable for me, if you would have rather quoted him ,not me :D

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"MattDu.7123" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> >

> > If you reread my initial question to you in this thread I specified debt. I did so because this is a defining element of what constitutes a legal currency.

>

> And if you reread my first post I said gaining not got. But you still hitched a ride.

>

> In earlier posts it was implyed that virtual currency couldn't be treated like real money. When we already have one that is.

> And i pointed out that it has only been 10 years and I can now pay a retailer with that virtual currency. What we now class as real money took a little bit longer to get there.

>

> > To be fair, the US dollar is not backed by anything physical, and has value because a company (the federal reserve) says so.

>

> almost there

>

> > Please all powerful, all knowing, all wise, and supremely benevolent government...come take care of me. Dont let me make decisions for myself. Protect me from myself. As one who is merely an adult I should not be allowed to act on my own behalf.

>

> Dont let the govermment tell you whats legal currency.

>

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

>

> > Guess it will be to bad for Netherlands gamers when companies just pull their games from being sold or accessible from your country, because any smart business that knows the difference between real gambling and what ever your country(I presume based on your post that is where you are from) has deemed to be gambling isn't worth doing business in.

>

> So if the rest of the governments follow suit then all the smart business will have to shut up shop?

>

>

 

If that's how they want to play the game, would be fine by me...I'd just stick to North America, plenty of people here for a single market...how many games aren't sold in China because the developers don't want to cow tow down to the government. It's my personal opinion that this goes along with our failed worldwide leadership role(i'm talking about our government here, if we had strong leadership we could be dictating how this falls out, but we have a buffoon for a leader and doesn't know his head from a hold in the ground). We have a legal definition of gambling that's been published in the Federal Register for ages, and the basic thing is as long as you win something it's not considered gambling...though most people refuse to believe me, it's easily searchable on the web.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> If that's how they want to play the game, would be fine by me...I'd just stick to North America, plenty of people here for a single market...how many games aren't sold in China because the developers don't want to cow tow down to the government. It's my personal opinion that this goes along with our failed worldwide leadership role(i'm talking about our government here, if we had strong leadership we could be dictating how this falls out, but we have a buffoon for a leader and doesn't know his head from a hold in the ground). We have a legal definition of gambling that's been published in the Federal Register for ages, and the basic thing is as long as you win something it's not considered gambling...though most people refuse to believe me, it's easily searchable on the web.

 

Please. No US administration ever would've had even a slight bit of a say in how these things are handled in other countries. When it comes to societal issues, the developed world more often than not looks at the US as an example of how not to do things, and that sentiment predates your buffoon by decades.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > If that's how they want to play the game, would be fine by me...I'd just stick to North America, plenty of people here for a single market...how many games aren't sold in China because the developers don't want to cow tow down to the government. It's my personal opinion that this goes along with our failed worldwide leadership role(i'm talking about our government here, if we had strong leadership we could be dictating how this falls out, but we have a buffoon for a leader and doesn't know his head from a hold in the ground). We have a legal definition of gambling that's been published in the Federal Register for ages, and the basic thing is as long as you win something it's not considered gambling...though most people refuse to believe me, it's easily searchable on the web.

>

> Please. No US administration ever would've had even a slight bit of a say in how these things are handled in other countries. When it comes to societal issues, the developed world more often than not looks at the US as an example of how not to do things, and that sentiment predates your buffoon by decades.

 

This isn't a societal issue, no matter what people think, it's completely a business model and that's how it should be looked at. To many governments are trying to protect people from themselves, well it's time to stop and let the people handle their own crisis, and if they can't, well, then what ever happens, happens.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > If that's how they want to play the game, would be fine by me...I'd just stick to North America, plenty of people here for a single market...how many games aren't sold in China because the developers don't want to cow tow down to the government. It's my personal opinion that this goes along with our failed worldwide leadership role(i'm talking about our government here, if we had strong leadership we could be dictating how this falls out, but we have a buffoon for a leader and doesn't know his head from a hold in the ground). We have a legal definition of gambling that's been published in the Federal Register for ages, and the basic thing is as long as you win something it's not considered gambling...though most people refuse to believe me, it's easily searchable on the web.

> >

> > Please. No US administration ever would've had even a slight bit of a say in how these things are handled in other countries. When it comes to societal issues, the developed world more often than not looks at the US as an example of how not to do things, and that sentiment predates your buffoon by decades.

>

> This isn't a societal issue, no matter what people think, it's completely a business model and that's how it should be looked at. To many governments are trying to protect people from themselves, well it's time to stop and let the people handle their own crisis, and if they can't, well, then what ever happens, happens.

You haven't the first clue what you're talking about. I'll clue you in: we're talking about existing laws being broken, not about "governments trying to protect people from themselves". There's no new legislation being drawn up to frustrate loot box providers (for now, who knows about the future). Some of the worst predatory loot box systems can carry on just fine over here in the Netherlands. That's because they're not breaking any laws.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > > If that's how they want to play the game, would be fine by me...I'd just stick to North America, plenty of people here for a single market...how many games aren't sold in China because the developers don't want to cow tow down to the government. It's my personal opinion that this goes along with our failed worldwide leadership role(i'm talking about our government here, if we had strong leadership we could be dictating how this falls out, but we have a buffoon for a leader and doesn't know his head from a hold in the ground). We have a legal definition of gambling that's been published in the Federal Register for ages, and the basic thing is as long as you win something it's not considered gambling...though most people refuse to believe me, it's easily searchable on the web.

> > >

> > > Please. No US administration ever would've had even a slight bit of a say in how these things are handled in other countries. When it comes to societal issues, the developed world more often than not looks at the US as an example of how not to do things, and that sentiment predates your buffoon by decades.

> >

> > This isn't a societal issue, no matter what people think, it's completely a business model and that's how it should be looked at. To many governments are trying to protect people from themselves, well it's time to stop and let the people handle their own crisis, and if they can't, well, then what ever happens, happens.

> You haven't the first clue what you're talking about. I'll clue you in: we're talking about existing laws being broken, not about "governments trying to protect people from themselves". There's no new legislation being drawn up to frustrate loot box providers (for now, who knows about the future). Some of the worst predatory loot box systems can carry on just fine over here in the Netherlands. That's because they're not breaking any laws.

 

I know they and you are talking about an existing law in the Netherlands, however, it's also been said that this could lead to the EU attempting to ban loot boxes. I'm also quite aware that it only applies to those that can be traded for real world cash, the 4 games that are subject to the law thought not publicly revealed by the Netherlands have been supposedly leaked, and GW2 is not one of them...so this whole discussion is really pointless. If people want to spend their money on loot boxes, let them, they earned it, and if they want to trade the items that come from those boxes, they should be able to do that too...as long as it doesn't go against a games EULA(which by the way I don't believe are blanket statements but tailored to the country the games are sold in, but then without seeing what's in the EULA in other countries I'm won't guarantee that's a true statement). So far we know that both Belgium and the U.K have said loot boxes aren't gambling, Hawaii and Washington state in the U.S. are going to try, but they'll run up against our legal definition of gambling which specifically states that as long as you win, it's not gambling.

[Ban Sidhe.9637]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

>

> I know they and you are talking about an existing law in the Netherlands, however, it's also been said that this could lead to the EU attempting to ban loot boxes.

 

The EU might, if they think it's necessary, but they are a pretty separate organ from the Dutch government. The Dutch government can't really make the EU create legislation towards that end. They could probably ask and perhaps lobby for it, but I doubt they will, as I doubt the Dutch Government even thinks it's necessary. As long as we can have our own laws on the matter and EU law doesn't conflict with it, there's no reason to change the entire EU.

 

> I'm also quite aware that it only applies to those that can be traded for real world cash, the 4 games that are subject to the law thought not publicly revealed by the Netherlands have been supposedly leaked, and GW2 is not one of them...so this whole discussion is really pointless.

 

They only did initial research after the 10 most popular games as a case study, that doesn't mean all the other companies don't need to abide by the law. They will eventually broaden their view and check up on other games that are still actively played in the field. The statement has been released, and gaming companies get a chance to come up with a solution. I believe the deadline is 20th of june, but it wasn't clear to me if that was just about the investigated games or a general deadline for all games.

 

> ... ... So far we know that both Belgium and the U.K have said loot boxes aren't gambling, Hawaii and Washington state in the U.S. are going to try, but they'll run up against our legal definition of gambling which specifically states that as long as you win, it's not gambling.

 

Could you show me news articles about that? I can't find any article saying that Belgium finished their investigations.. So far I only know about the Dutch Gaming Authority having made an official statement. I wouldn't be surprised if the UK says it's legal though, their laws on gambling are far less strict than the Dutch are.. You can bet on sports there, or the outcome of the Brexit, there are bookies all over London, and it's probably the same for the rest of the country. Perhaps they just need to change some labels on the packaging of games indicating the presence of loot boxes, and apply some reviewed age restrictions perhaps for it to be legal there. I'm not familiar with their laws on the subject.

 

 

This is about 6 months old, but it's an official statement by a minister in the UK:

 

> "Where items obtained in a computer game can be traded or exchanged outside the game platform they acquire a monetary value, and where facilities for gambling with such items are offered to consumers located in Britain a Gambling Commission licence is required. If no licence is held, the Commission uses a wide range of regulatory powers to take action," she said.

 

> "Protecting children and vulnerable people from being harmed or exploited by gambling is one of the core objectives of the regulation of gambling in Great Britain and a priority for the government.

 

> "The Gambling Commission has a range of regulatory powers to take action where illegal gambling is taking place. Earlier this year the Gambling Commission successfully prosecuted the operators of a website providing illegal gambling facilities for in-game items which was accessible to children - the first regulator in the world to bring such an action."

[Ban Sidhe.9637]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> So far we know that both Belgium and the U.K have said loot boxes aren't gambling, Hawaii and Washington state in the U.S. are going to try, but they'll run up against our legal definition of gambling which specifically states that as long as you win, it's not gambling.

 

In my previous post I asked whether you had news articles confirming that statement about Belgium. Turns out they hadn't made an official statement at all!

Just read in the news that Belgium deems ANY paid lootboxes with a variable value outcome gambling. They seem to not even consider whether the loot can be traded or not, as one of the games (Overwatch) that the Netherlands didn't see as gambling, is in Belgium seen as breaking the law on gambling! In Overwatch lootboxes can be received by playing, but also paid for. The loot can't be traded however.

 

Belgium looked into 4 games according to the article, but says the problem is probably more widespread.

The 4 investigated games were Overwatch, Staw Wars Battlefront II, FIFA 18 and Counter Strike: Global Offensive. Only SW:BF2 is currently not breaking the law in Belgium, since paid loot boxes have been removed. EA is planning (or perhaps already has) to return micro transactions to SW:BF2. If that is the case, they would be back on Belgium's list.

 

It goes on to state that they are looking for dialog with game companies.. But eventually if games are not altered, game companies risk a fine of up to 800.000 Euro and 5 years in prison. If proven that minors have actually been affected negatively, those could both double.