Kapax.3801 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @Kapax.3801 said: > > I never tire of repeating ... > > > > Normal Mode / Challenge Mode > > > > End of the problem, everyone happy > > > >  > > > > Except for: > > - the content which had to get cut because of the time commitment the developers had to make to implement normal mode > - the people for whom normal mode is still to hard > - the adjusted loot for normal mode not being on par as "hard mode" > > and those 3 are just off the top of my head. Yeah, everyone is happy with this idea. 1.- You do not believe it. 2.- normal mode, made for people who do not search for a meta build, only complete the content weekly, such as fractals. 3.- You can only get the reward once a week and per boss, so avoid double farming. (hundreds of ideas for this, dozens of MMOs as an example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Kapax.3801 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @Kapax.3801 said: > > > I never tire of repeating ... > > > > > > Normal Mode / Challenge Mode > > > > > > End of the problem, everyone happy > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Except for: > > > > - the content which had to get cut because of the time commitment the developers had to make to implement normal mode > > - the people for whom normal mode is still to hard > > - the adjusted loot for normal mode not being on par as "hard mode" > > > > and those 3 are just off the top of my head. Yeah, everyone is happy with this idea. > > 1.- You do not believe it. You think adjusting some numbers here and there will make the fights significantly easier? You do realise many bosses have instant kill attacks which would have to get re-balanced. Mechanics which dictate the fights are harder than the actual numeric difficulty. Why do you think top raiders are able to complete these encounters with less than a full squad or in greens? So yes, the amount of work increases. Raids are already on a 6-9 months release cycle with a small team. > @Kapax.3801 said: > 2.- normal mode, made for people who do not search for a meta build, only complete the content weekly, such as fractals. Yes because dungeons while infinitely easier had no elitism and forced meta. Fractals also have no meta currently. I'm totally seeing it. /s > @Kapax.3801 said: > 3.- You can only get the reward once a week and per boss, so avoid double farming. (hundreds of ideas for this, dozens of MMOs as an example) So you think people will be fine with having no access to legendary armor via easier raids? Or are you actually suggesting arenanet offer the same rewards for easier raids as they do now for the current raids? That opens up a totally new issue and I'm quite sure the developers won't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Just don't play raids? There's plenty of other content such that I personally don't feel they are wasting dev time making content that I never intend to play - I just ignore it and play what I like. Haven't unlocked raids since they were first introduced; never intend to do so either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success. > > **I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner**, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and **others would then have to prove themselves to me** and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos. You are a hypocrite. You want a double standard. You think you shouldnt have to prove yourself to anyone, but then expect people to prove themselves to you. You use this as an excuse for not starting your own group (which takes 2 seconds). Thats not an excuse. Your skill isnt so great that you should get special treatment in this game. Make your own group. You havnt offered a single decent reason why you cant. You expect anet to change the entire raiding community and raids themselves with NERFS for you. Give an actual compelling reason why you cant just start your own group first then we might have an actual discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @sorudo.9054 said: > > if a game mode can only be played by the small 10% and the other 90% are asking for easier difficulty, i see that as a good reason to actually add different difficulty levels. > > a game doesn't survive on just 10% of it's player base, it survives on 90% of it's player base. > > The thing is, it isn't a good reason. Let me tell you why. Easier difficulty exists. It's called Fractals of the Mists. Adding "easy mode" raids changes nothing. The gameplay experience will be the same as in lower-tier fractals and will therefore serve no purpose. People won't play it actively because the rewards will suck. And if the rewards do not suck, it will make players abandon the normal mode raids. So you either lose the 10% of the population (because they lose interest), or you throw a considerable effort reworking existing encounters to make no difference at all. There is literally no positive outcome. what, like the oh so positive outcome raids have made, yeah that's not a waste of effort....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly.7019 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @tairneanach.8427 said: > In order to fix elitism they'd have to change the elitists, not the game. > No, they pretty much changed the game and included raids which is the problem > > Let's face it: If it has numbers, someone going to minmax it. And if it's minmaxed, someone will come along and decide that that's the only way to do things. > Let's face it they added Raiding because they are not the same group that designed vanilla GW2. Vanilla GW2 devs would never have introduced raiding. it goes against the positive community/ working together teamwork that is GW2. Raiding is the dark corner for the best of the best huge ego, elitist jerks and it remains that way to this day. The negativity from this is not what GW2 stood for but sadly is apart of Gw2 now. > > Auto grouping, if I understand the concept correctly, will just make those angry people leave a group they think isn't good enough > Sounds good so far >- while ranting - and find a new one which they'll rant about too, more angry the second time around. > Or they will not use this tool because of too many "trash" players and form their own groups like before - "ah what an idea!" > >Or they'll rant until the others leave - can't waste what progress has been made, after all. Lowering difficulty will make elitists angry because the devs listened to the >whiners(paraphrased, not how I'd phrase it). > ummm the raiders were the whiners the devs listened to in the first place- helloooo :) > > Making raids suitable for groups of five won't change how those groups are treated (I don't play dungeons or fractals with people I don't know, but I'm reasonably sure that people who do, face elitsts too). Every pve fight will always be about dps unless they make a gimmick that then inevitably will be minmaxed in a different way. > the raiding thing described here sounds alot like WoW's auto raiding tool, the difference bieng everyone would get their own rng chance at loot and not shared with other people. but could work. but prolly won't happen. The LFG raidng tool in WoW worked out alot better with server communities that could work together- teamwork- and still had a few pricks that couldn't could find raid groups by themselves- (wonder why...) but over all worked well. > > I can sort of see where these people are coming from: They feel their time is wasted if something takes a bit longer than they think it ought to. I personally don't feel that way, but I can see why people would, especially nowadays where work is about efficiency. That pressure and the fact that most don't like to feel like they just lost leads to anger and elitism. ANet can't change that, no matter what they do. Sorry. The problem is not everyone plays this game to feel like they are at work. A lot of people play MMO's to relax and not feel pressured. Raiding and more so the elitist jerks that play this content ruins that. But the content itself is structured or catered to these people and putting gear drops that only come from this one thing behind the elitst jerk wall doesn't make too much sense for the majority of players. People who feel their time is wasted if something takes a bit longer are the minority. A lot more people i can tell you who play this game love the lore and story and fun of playing together the social aspect of having fun together out weighs the i want it done fast mentality. Your not suppose to spend anytime outside of the game in order to play the game and have fun. Anet made this game a more positive friendly place by rewardign you for helping oithers unlike other games . They should should probably in the same way take this approach to raiding. If some elitist jerks actually got rewards for helping others they might be more willing to help many. I could see a system designed around this and something similar to the one mentioned earlier. I'm Brainstorming here... but... why not an auto rading training instance like story for dungeons, but used as an LFG raiding tool. Those elitist pr icks who have cleared X many raid bosses would get extra, special loot when/ if doing them and newbies could learn the mechanics of raids with out the pressure. This way the player base would have increased knowledge of how to raid and less likely be spat upon when entering regular raids because they know what to do. Rewards as far as tokens might be half as much and weekly caps. Or something like this, i'm sure others can design something more solid. but it does seem to be the beginning of something both parties would be interested in. Extra rewards per week for elitist if they want to spend the time and experience for beginners. I'd assume more helpful people and less eltists would be participating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Kelly.7019 said: > Let's face it they added Raiding because they are not the same group that designed vanilla GW2. Vanilla GW2 devs would never have introduced raiding. it goes against the positive community/ working together teamwork that is GW2. Raiding is the dark corner for the best of the best huge ego, elitist jerks and it remains that way to this day. The negativity from this is not what GW2 stood for but sadly is apart of Gw2 now. That is false. Pre-made 5 man PvP teams that compete for tournaments have always been the height of elitism and exclusivity. PvP is vanilla GW2 mode. Then there is community made GvG of 5v5, 10v10, 20v20 and so on in WvW. Guilds have been created and drama has destroyed the same guilds over this vanilla GW2. After this on the elitism scale we have vanilla GW2 dungeon speed runs, the precursor for today's raid. A common practice back in vanilla GW2 days was to "prove your worth" by soling lupi, a practice which thankfully few players today are forced to do. Why are you picking on players who enjoy raiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 FYI, Elitists were in the game from the start, anyone who is dismissing this and wasn't around when '4 warrior 1 mesmer' was a thing is being intentionally dishonest. They were even more apparent when we had Fractal Scale go up to 50 for Mai Trin. Saying that you got through those times by "easily" making your own groups for things like HotW paths and so forth simply choose to ignore the faster meta runs of those times, there was quite a few dungeon groups that didn't want to spend 3+ hours in an Arah path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @Seera.5916 said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @Seera.5916 said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > @Seera.5916 said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > @Talindra.4958 said: > > > > > > > > > not sure about fixing elitism but perhaps fixing players own attitude towards the games first might help. I have seen people starting a month ago and never given up and achieved what they need. I don't see any problem for any new raiders to start today if they stop crying and actually start to put effort in it. > > > > > > > > > I pugged my way from start, I have seen people getting kicked, seen people refuse to change, seen people cry about everything but refuse to fit in. so these are the people that they should accept that you either need to fight for it to achieve it or leave it. similar to real life you cant forced urself to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, artist, you need to put effort to train urself to it. and no point crying about it by only try 40 hours training? > > > > > > > > > we wipe over and over and over and over and over before we master how to play in a team .. how to manage mechanics. I also seen people try a few and they couldn't accept that they couldn't do it, they really have to say all the bad stuff about raids. > > > > > > > > > accept that, the fact there are a handful of raiders, and anet will continue to provide reasonable updates for them and similar to fractal, similar to living story. pvp & wvw? anet probably has a long term plan or none due to good reasons. so accept the fact and play or don't bother. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only I'm overqualified when it comes to raiding, but grouping in gw2 is too frustrating compared to other mmos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I take your analogy of training to be a lawyer or doctor for years, and apply it to myself, then I already have put the time in, but it's as if I'm unable to show my diploma, a resume or work history to others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except the diploma is proof of TRAINING. Work history is proof you've done the job before, and believe me it's harder to get a job as a doctor in one field if you've only had experience in a different field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have not shown any proof that you've trained. Claiming you've watched a video is not proof. I'm not saying you haven't watched any videos, but people would lie if all they had to say was that they watched a few YouTube videos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're frustrated that you have to socialize in an MMO in order to get into a group to raid?! Wow. And this is coming from a shy introvert who doesn't like communicating with people. But I will do it in MMO's or not partake in the content that requires it. And dungeons, raids, fractals, meta-maps, etc REQUIRE communication both before and during the encounter. I'm actually honestly SHOCKED that there is not MORE content than currently exists that requires me to group up with others or do without the rewards. This is multiplayer game, not a single player game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and others would then have to prove themselves to me and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos. > > > > > > > > > > And if I recall correctly, ANet said that raids were not meant to be PUG'ed. Meaning it was supposed to be difficulty for 10 strangers to band together to defeat the raid. > > > > > > > > > > Meaning training raids are there to give you the training needed in order to form your own dedicated group. Be it by finding 9 other like minded individuals and becoming friends or be it by finding a guild that raids that takes you in after doing a trial run or two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And one minute. You don't want to prove yourself to others, but you want them to prove themselves to you?!?!?!?!?! That's the most hypocritical thing you've said in this entire thread. If you want others to accept people at their word, then YOU need to be the one to start that movement. You need to go out there and start "take you at your word" groups when it comes to ability to learn or experience with the raid. > > > > > > > > > > You can't have it both ways. You can't tell others to accept you without proof, but then turn around and not extend the same courtesy to other people. > > > > > > > > Me vetting people into my group is a product of there not being easier raids or auto grouping, which is what is the point of this thread. Anet needs to fix this, since player mentality won't change. If I take the time to make a raid group my mentality certainly wouldn't change if I had to put in that amount of effort, with no features to assist me in finding players. > > > > > > You aren't meant to have any easy time to PUG raids. Raids are DESIGNED for STATIC groups. As in 10 guild members, 10 friends, 10 people who decided they like each other enough to raid together. > > > > > > Easier raids and auto grouping will not fix the problem given the purpose of raids. Raids are supposed to be challenging group content aimed at static groups. Not PUG's and they aren't meant to be easy. > > > > They never said raids were aimed at static groups. They said it was challenging group content. They also never said pugs aren't supposed to do it either. Also I don't know why you keep thinking that part of raid difficulty is forming a group. **If it's difficult to form a group then that's a logistical issue that Anet should address.** Also forming a group isn't content, it's a chore that I would venture to guess that nobody enjoys. > > Yet there is a ton of people who have no problem forming raid groups multiple times a week and new players joining raids constantly while older players fall away. > > Forming a group is something which has been an integral part of MMOs every since their conception. You being used to an auto-grouping feature from other games is more in conflict with what MMOs are (essentially a massive multiplayer game where players group to overcome challenges, compete with each other, etc.) by removing a huge part of the social aspect in favor of loot dedication. > > But go right ahead, keep blaming others and the system for your inability to raid (or more exact the inability to find people who want to raid with you). In the meantime, more players (with less impressive out of game credentials) will join raids, the cycle will continue and you'll get to jump on to the next "things need to change" thread a couple of weeks down the road once this one has expired. What a lot a lot of assumptions you've made and apparently you think there isn't a problem with having no additional features or options to raids. Apparently you've never asked for any change ever and also never succeeded at trying to convince others to make things better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawken.7932 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Fun fact: I raided for years in WoW and Rift and in GW2, I am really turned off getting into it because of the whole “selling raid runs” thing. I know that these days, it’s also a thing in WoW, but that’s no excuse. It’s lame and totally not in the rest of the spirit of GW2, which is otherwise such a cool and helpful community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Curunen.8729 said: > Just don't play raids? > > There's plenty of other content such that I personally don't feel they are wasting dev time making content that I never intend to play - I just ignore it and play what I like. > > Haven't unlocked raids since they were first introduced; never intend to do so either. Great solution lol, why don't we all just uninstall gw2 while we're at it lol. No point in trying to change anything right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Hawken.7932 said: >I know that these days it’s also a thing in WoW, but that’s no excuse. . >I know that these days it’s also a thing in WoW . >these days Please :lol: It's since vanilla that players managed to sell runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @zombyturtle.5980 said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success. > > > > **I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner**, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and **others would then have to prove themselves to me** and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos. > > You are a hypocrite. You want a double standard. You think you shouldnt have to prove yourself to anyone, but then expect people to prove themselves to you. You use this as an excuse for not starting your own group (which takes 2 seconds). Thats not an excuse. > > Your skill isnt so great that you should get special treatment in this game. Make your own group. You havnt offered a single decent reason why you cant. You expect anet to change the entire raiding community and raids themselves with NERFS for you. Give an actual compelling reason why you cant just start your own group first then we might have an actual discussion. Your misreading, I said that if I formed my own group I would have to lower myself to make others jump through the same hoops that others are expecting me to jump through when I try to join there groups. This is because, Anet won't introduce alternatives or easier ways for me to find people, so as it currently is, I would end up vetting people the same way they are vetting me, and I don't want to do that, so I won't. I'd rather Anet change/improve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Selling raid is a very fringe part of the raiding community and one which isn't explicitly supported by Anet. Remember what happened to selling SAB tokens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDraco.8306 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Belorn.2659 said: > Selling raid is a very fringe part of the raiding community and one which isn't explicitly supported by Anet. Remember what happened to selling SAB tokens? Anet has already stated they do not care if people sell raids. However the SAB tokens were fixed because they wanted you to join the run BEFORE finishing, not join after someone has done the work and pick up a reward. It's basically the same as selling raids now. You stay for the whole fight, and you get carried or die, and still get loot when its finished. Either way its basically on par now with selling raids. It's consistent, and i don't see a problem with that. Can still make plenty of gold selling SAB runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @zombyturtle.5980 said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success. > > > > > > **I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner**, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and **others would then have to prove themselves to me** and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos. > > > > You are a hypocrite. You want a double standard. You think you shouldnt have to prove yourself to anyone, but then expect people to prove themselves to you. You use this as an excuse for not starting your own group (which takes 2 seconds). Thats not an excuse. > > > > Your skill isnt so great that you should get special treatment in this game. Make your own group. You havnt offered a single decent reason why you cant. You expect anet to change the entire raiding community and raids themselves with NERFS for you. Give an actual compelling reason why you cant just start your own group first then we might have an actual discussion. > > Your misreading, I said that if I formed my own group I would have to lower myself to make others jump through the same hoops that others are expecting me to jump through when I try to join there groups. This is because, Anet won't introduce alternatives or easier ways for me to find people, so as it currently is, I would end up vetting people the same way they are vetting me, and I don't want to do that, so I won't. I'd rather Anet change/improve it. So let's say at Time A on Day B, that 10 people, including yourself want to do Raid Wing X. You're the only one who has any form of experience or knowledge, the others are complete raid newbies and so lazy they haven't even looked at YouTube or read a Wiki article. If they joined through an auto-join, you'd welcome them with open arms and be content with spending 3+ hours raiding until you succeeded. BUT If they joined through the existing LFG post that you made, you'd have to vet them. Why does an auto-join suddenly make you willing to take anyone of any skill level? If you care so much about how well a player plays that you'd have to vet them if you were the leader of your group, then why would you accept players in an auto-join of any skill level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mireles Lore.5942 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Hmm... At the time of this post OP has 42 likes on it. Here is a crazy idea. Maybe you all should form a group with them. There is nothing stopping you from finding 10 like minded people to form a group, no vetting required. Nobody and thier elitism controls the raid portal, you are free to enter with whomever you want. The only thing stopping you, is as you stated, your unwillingness to. Anet can't change the game and peoples thinking to terms you find acceptable and make them raid with you on your terms. Not only is that highly impractical it is also a very selfish thing to ask. There are many players out there enjoying raids without Anet enforcing social control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 As I said the only thing this thread accomplishes is showing Arenanet what a colossal mistake adding raiding was. I'm betting they will solve the issue by just not adding any new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @sorudo.9054 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @sorudo.9054 said: > > > if a game mode can only be played by the small 10% and the other 90% are asking for easier difficulty, i see that as a good reason to actually add different difficulty levels. > > > a game doesn't survive on just 10% of it's player base, it survives on 90% of it's player base. > > > > The thing is, it isn't a good reason. Let me tell you why. Easier difficulty exists. It's called Fractals of the Mists. Adding "easy mode" raids changes nothing. The gameplay experience will be the same as in lower-tier fractals and will therefore serve no purpose. People won't play it actively because the rewards will suck. And if the rewards do not suck, it will make players abandon the normal mode raids. So you either lose the 10% of the population (because they lose interest), or you throw a considerable effort reworking existing encounters to make no difference at all. There is literally no positive outcome. > > what, like the oh so positive outcome raids have made, yeah that's not a waste of effort....... They kept 10% of the playerbase in the game... assuming it's 10%, I'd guess it's more. So yeah, quite a positive effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @Seera.5916 said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @Seera.5916 said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > @Seera.5916 said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > > @Talindra.4958 said: > > > > > > > > > > not sure about fixing elitism but perhaps fixing players own attitude towards the games first might help. I have seen people starting a month ago and never given up and achieved what they need. I don't see any problem for any new raiders to start today if they stop crying and actually start to put effort in it. > > > > > > > > > > I pugged my way from start, I have seen people getting kicked, seen people refuse to change, seen people cry about everything but refuse to fit in. so these are the people that they should accept that you either need to fight for it to achieve it or leave it. similar to real life you cant forced urself to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, artist, you need to put effort to train urself to it. and no point crying about it by only try 40 hours training? > > > > > > > > > > we wipe over and over and over and over and over before we master how to play in a team .. how to manage mechanics. I also seen people try a few and they couldn't accept that they couldn't do it, they really have to say all the bad stuff about raids. > > > > > > > > > > accept that, the fact there are a handful of raiders, and anet will continue to provide reasonable updates for them and similar to fractal, similar to living story. pvp & wvw? anet probably has a long term plan or none due to good reasons. so accept the fact and play or don't bother. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only I'm overqualified when it comes to raiding, but grouping in gw2 is too frustrating compared to other mmos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I take your analogy of training to be a lawyer or doctor for years, and apply it to myself, then I already have put the time in, but it's as if I'm unable to show my diploma, a resume or work history to others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except the diploma is proof of TRAINING. Work history is proof you've done the job before, and believe me it's harder to get a job as a doctor in one field if you've only had experience in a different field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have not shown any proof that you've trained. Claiming you've watched a video is not proof. I'm not saying you haven't watched any videos, but people would lie if all they had to say was that they watched a few YouTube videos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're frustrated that you have to socialize in an MMO in order to get into a group to raid?! Wow. And this is coming from a shy introvert who doesn't like communicating with people. But I will do it in MMO's or not partake in the content that requires it. And dungeons, raids, fractals, meta-maps, etc REQUIRE communication both before and during the encounter. I'm actually honestly SHOCKED that there is not MORE content than currently exists that requires me to group up with others or do without the rewards. This is multiplayer game, not a single player game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and others would then have to prove themselves to me and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos. > > > > > > > > > > > > And if I recall correctly, ANet said that raids were not meant to be PUG'ed. Meaning it was supposed to be difficulty for 10 strangers to band together to defeat the raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > Meaning training raids are there to give you the training needed in order to form your own dedicated group. Be it by finding 9 other like minded individuals and becoming friends or be it by finding a guild that raids that takes you in after doing a trial run or two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And one minute. You don't want to prove yourself to others, but you want them to prove themselves to you?!?!?!?!?! That's the most hypocritical thing you've said in this entire thread. If you want others to accept people at their word, then YOU need to be the one to start that movement. You need to go out there and start "take you at your word" groups when it comes to ability to learn or experience with the raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't have it both ways. You can't tell others to accept you without proof, but then turn around and not extend the same courtesy to other people. > > > > > > > > > > Me vetting people into my group is a product of there not being easier raids or auto grouping, which is what is the point of this thread. Anet needs to fix this, since player mentality won't change. If I take the time to make a raid group my mentality certainly wouldn't change if I had to put in that amount of effort, with no features to assist me in finding players. > > > > > > > > You aren't meant to have any easy time to PUG raids. Raids are DESIGNED for STATIC groups. As in 10 guild members, 10 friends, 10 people who decided they like each other enough to raid together. > > > > > > > > Easier raids and auto grouping will not fix the problem given the purpose of raids. Raids are supposed to be challenging group content aimed at static groups. Not PUG's and they aren't meant to be easy. > > > > > > They never said raids were aimed at static groups. They said it was challenging group content. They also never said pugs aren't supposed to do it either. Also I don't know why you keep thinking that part of raid difficulty is forming a group. **If it's difficult to form a group then that's a logistical issue that Anet should address.** Also forming a group isn't content, it's a chore that I would venture to guess that nobody enjoys. > > > > Yet there is a ton of people who have no problem forming raid groups multiple times a week and new players joining raids constantly while older players fall away. > > > > Forming a group is something which has been an integral part of MMOs every since their conception. You being used to an auto-grouping feature from other games is more in conflict with what MMOs are (essentially a massive multiplayer game where players group to overcome challenges, compete with each other, etc.) by removing a huge part of the social aspect in favor of loot dedication. > > > > But go right ahead, keep blaming others and the system for your inability to raid (or more exact the inability to find people who want to raid with you). In the meantime, more players (with less impressive out of game credentials) will join raids, the cycle will continue and you'll get to jump on to the next "things need to change" thread a couple of weeks down the road once this one has expired. > > What a lot a lot of assumptions you've made and apparently you think there isn't a problem with having no additional features or options to raids. Apparently you've never asked for any change ever and also never succeeded at trying to convince others to make things better. You mean like the assumptions you've been making the entire thread long? Mine are based in how you approach people in this thread, how you talk about yourself, how you formulate what you want and the success you have had so far. Notice how I wasn't the only one to deduce some od your character qualities. Doesn't change the fact that 3 months from now you will still be asking for changes while complaining about nit getting taken along. That is unless you decide to change your approach to the entire matter. Me, I might be taking a break from GW2 or still be happily raiding away working on my 3rd legendary armor, what ever suits me best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastio.7642 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > Not due to difficulty but due to the psychology surrounding others who play it. > > perhaps lowering raid difficulty How thinking before typing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Coulter.2315 said: > > @Cynn.1659 said: > > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > > @Arzurag.7506 said: > > > > The ppl who do raiding do nothing wrong in being elitists. > > > > The greater problem is the time limit of each encounter and the need of reaching a certain amount of damage for a dps-check. > > > > > > > > Why can´t we take the time we want to kill the boss ? > > > > > > Because part of the skill of raiding is doing it within the time limit and in squishy armour, the time limit does not defeat groups anyway (it is extremely forgiving), the mechanics do. You can even do some bosses with 10 tank/healers taking 30mins+ ignoring the timer completely. > > > > Remove the enrages, and you will be able to heal cheese through all of them. Those timers are there for a reason to stop just that. It wouldn't be challenging content, if you could just take 10 healers and cheese your way through the raid. Raids are already too easy, and making them even easier will not solve anything. > > > > Most people that raid do it for the fun, not rewards. Raid rewards are not even that good compared to some other places in the game. So anet adds story mode, all the people that complain about not having it, will do it just once, then never touch it agian. Because rewards are even worse than in regular raid. > > Oh I agree, the enrages must stay, they are as much a mechanic as any other. Enrage is a mechanic in a particular style of raiding that encourages a certain style of raid setup. There are many styles of raids that would also suit the other **90%**+ of the GW2 population, and both style can live side by side with raid difficulties qite easily. Its an incredibly simple problem to solve : Easy mode : no Enrage, full boss mechanics, reduced 1 shot potential. (blue highlight on rewarded gear) Normal mode : as it is now. (some other colour on gear) Elite mode: A new mode for existing raiders to get their teeth into. (some other colour on gear) job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awaltir.5302 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Palador.2170 said: > Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but... yeah. > > Allow me to say first that I think adding raids was a bad idea. For a casual game, raids require too much commitment and focus to mesh well with the rest of the game. I'm not going to argue it, I just want to be honest and up front about my overall view before I move on. > > Anyway, I don't think raids will be a problem for us much longer. With either this raid or the next one, I expect that we'll start to see the end of raids looming in the distance. Why? Rewards, that's why. Raiders expect big rewards for their effort, and a game like GW2 is rather limited in just how good those rewards can be. The big carrot to chase so far has been legendary armor, but that's out now and a lot of the more dedicated raiders have it. If they don't have it, they can finish it off with the raids we already have. But what rewards can they offer with the newer raids? ANet has already said they'll make no more legendary armor skins, so that's out. And they can't provide legendary weapons, considering they've still not finished the ones to be released as part of HoT yet. Legendary trinkets? Well, the ascended ones are so easy to get, the idea is almost a joke. > > I'm sure they'll come up with a few flashy little things, but they'll be lost in the sea of similarly flashy things already in the game. Raid rewards will no longer be anything special, which will make a lot of raiders upset. With no big goal to work towards, a lot of raiders won't go through the effort of raiding. Soon, it simply won't be worth the developer investment to make any more raids, and they'll be abandoned just like dungeons were. If you think that most people do it for Legendary armor still it is easy to see you have never been in raid. Most people do it because it is 2-3 hour easy gold/ascended and unique skins + quiet a few exotics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @Coulter.2315 said: > If there are large numbers of people who want to do raids but don't want to group with elitists you just need to write "LFM newbie run, let's just figure it out and have fun," elitists won't join that group and you're fine. Create a guild or friendlist annotation and start collecting people you enjoy grouping with. You have all the tools you need to avoid the elitists, you just don't use them - which makes me question your sincerity. > > Also a company cannot "fix" a piece of human nature, unless they develop weapons or drugs or provide lobotomies (which Anet doesn't - I think). If they could fix people they would probably start with fixing all the ones that make suggestions without putting any thought into it first. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > @Cynn.1659 said: > > > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > > > @Arzurag.7506 said: > > > > > The ppl who do raiding do nothing wrong in being elitists. > > > > > The greater problem is the time limit of each encounter and the need of reaching a certain amount of damage for a dps-check. > > > > > > > > > > Why can´t we take the time we want to kill the boss ? > > > > > > > > Because part of the skill of raiding is doing it within the time limit and in squishy armour, the time limit does not defeat groups anyway (it is extremely forgiving), the mechanics do. You can even do some bosses with 10 tank/healers taking 30mins+ ignoring the timer completely. > > > > > > Remove the enrages, and you will be able to heal cheese through all of them. Those timers are there for a reason to stop just that. It wouldn't be challenging content, if you could just take 10 healers and cheese your way through the raid. Raids are already too easy, and making them even easier will not solve anything. > > > > > > Most people that raid do it for the fun, not rewards. Raid rewards are not even that good compared to some other places in the game. So anet adds story mode, all the people that complain about not having it, will do it just once, then never touch it agian. Because rewards are even worse than in regular raid. > > > > Oh I agree, the enrages must stay, they are as much a mechanic as any other. > > Enrage is a mechanic in a particular style of raiding that encourages a certain style of raid setup. There are many styles of raids that would also suit the other **90%**+ of the GW2 population, and both style can live side by side with raid difficulties qite easily. > > Its an incredibly simple problem to solve : > > Easy mode : no Enrage, full boss mechanics, reduced 1 shot potential. (blue highlight on rewarded gear) > Normal mode : as it is now. (some other colour on gear) > Elite mode: A new mode for existing raiders to get their teeth into. (some other colour on gear) > > job done. As long as easy mode gives 0 Legendary Insights I don't really care. Normal can be what we have now and some CMs for the "hard" segment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts