Raid difficulty and challenge motes

[meeflak.9714]

> @Blaeys.3102 said:

> > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > > @Blaeys.3102 said:

> > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.

> > > > Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

> > > >

> > > > How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

> > > >

> > > > Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

> > >

> > > There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

> > >

> > > It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

> > >

> > > As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

> >

> > Have you ever tried raiding?

>

> I answer your question in the first sentence of the third paragraph of the post you just quoted.

>

 

So you know that raids are accessible to anyone who wants to put in the effort?

[Lonami.2987]

> @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

>

> We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

>

> I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

 

I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

 

There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

 

**Raids need difficulty modes.**

 

* **Easy:** For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.

* **Normal:** The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).

* **Hard:** A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

 

Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

 

If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with dumb events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

 

Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

[Fatalyz.7168]

> @Crevox.5806 said:

>

I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids.

>

> I agree with you that this is (at least partially) where it stems from. A lot of the content in this game is very easy and people have no benchmark for themselves or others to determine how good they are. I've seen it myself in the hundreds of fractals I've run: player quality is ALL OVER the place. Not only is there no way for any individual to determine ahead of time if you know what you're doing, but a lot of players themselves don't even know if they're performing well, because the game gives so little feedback on that fact for you to form an understanding. Refining my gameplay and build/etc has gotten much easier thanks to having a DPS meter, but due to the nature of this game, I highly doubt the majority of players take that effort. I just started doing T4 fractals last night and the player quality so far has not improved from doing T1-T3 pugs; the bosses just take longer. I would say 99% of the players I've partied with would not be ready for a raid just by looking at their DPS, let alone their ability to handle their mechanics. That's totally fine, raids aren't for everyone and not everyone has to perform at that level, but when these players want to actually do raids, they hold back the groups because they aren't prepared (and I'm not saying that is their fault either).

>

> And look, I don't mean to sound egotistical; I just know where I stand, and took the effort to figure that out as well. There are players like me out there that want to get into raids and are confident in doing so. However, there is no avenue for us to take to get going. Everyone says to just do the "training runs"; which, like you said, is basically an audition. And yeah, sure, maybe that's the way to go, but that's currently 1000 players trying to fit through a door with 3 people leading them through it, PER BOSS. It's a long line of waiting and most people probably aren't ready for it. I've seen the discords come back and say the training groups failed the VG runs, and while I've never done VG (so this may be presumptuous), I find it difficult to believe that he did not die. Even if I finally get into the mythical unicorn "VG training run", what's next? Another 1000 hours of searching for the next boss "training run?" And so on? I just came back to the game, I haven't done any of the bosses, and sure seems like there's quite a few.

>

> So yeah, while I understand the community's concern, this still leads to a situation where you have these fancy tight knit groups doing all the fun and difficult content, and anyone else is struggling to get into this fancy "elite" groups to do the content, while they sometimes decide to take a couple players to "train" them. I am looking for a better way to get going and hoping ArenaNet does something to facilitate this.

 

As to finding training runs, the best times to look are usually on Friday and Saturday (at least for NA and would assume the same for EU). Monday and Tuesday night most people are just looking for their kills. Hopefully that timeframe will help you with finding LFG's. I also noticed someone else in this thread offered you a spot in a training run, try checking with them, and something might be able to work out. Something else to consider is that these were ultimately created with guilds and already organized groups doing this content, not pugs. So that is why there is little support for pug groups, and why they probably won't do more, besides the fact of it taking time away from producing the raids as Crystal mentioned earlier.

 

I've been where you are, wanting to join in, but unable to. Just do what you can/have to, and then you'll get there.

[Blaeys.3102]

> @meeflak.9714 said:

> So you know that raids are accessible to anyone who wants to put in the effort?

 

Just because I am able to pull together and lead a raid group every week doesn't mean I have to agree with the raiding model in the game.

 

I lead a guild with more than 150 active members (more than 250 have logged on in the past two weeks). I raid with approximately 12 of those people for four hours spread across two nights each week.

 

But I also know many more who would enjoy raids in a less intensive format. It isn't because they suck at the game. It isn't because they are lazy. It is just that they enjoy the game in different ways - and, to be honest, I would enjoy playing that content in a less intensive format with them.

 

And, the idea that those people - my friends that I enjoy playing with - will not enjoy aspects of the story because of what I believe to be faulty and restrictive design is, at the very minimum, depressing.

 

Like most things, it isn't a black and white issue - and just because someone raids doesn't mean they agree with the model Anet uses.

[Zlater.6789]

I don't personally like OP's suggestion, if you want to experience it there is nothing stopping anyone from experiencing it except themselves as it is. I've heard a lot of debate over this but I started raiding in a difficult time a couple months after w4 was released, and now last I checked I have 210LI and can confidently play almost any role in any encounter, except handkiting. And I certainly didn't sneak or lie my way into raids, even with my 300+ ping.

 

Honestly if you are struggling in w4 then you are struggling because of something else. Cairn is easily carryable with a good dps or 2 and MO isn't even a fight. There is no reason you can't meet Samarog except that you are lacking something as a person. Get motivated and go do it.

[Zefiris.8297]

> @"Sarat Roy.1935" said:

> the bar for raids is EXTREMELY low as it is

 

The bar for raids in WoW or FFXIV is this:

DO a few quests (or just buy em), gear out the character, click button, open interface, click other button. That's it.

 

The bar for raids in GW2 is this:

Level crafting to maximum, farm specific gear by doing specific meta events over and over, don't be deaf (to use discord/teamspeak), be the right class, have work at the right time to be online when training runs are around, and then finally manage to get a spot.

 

The bar is not "extremely low", it's probably the highest bar in any current MMO.

Seriously:The bar to raiding in GW2 is probably a bit higher as it was in classic WoW and about the same as it was in the Burning Crusade, attunements and heroics included.

 

That's not inherently bad or anything, it's just how it is.

 

(And yes, I can compare. I've played both FFXIV and WoW quite a bit, one for my job, the other with some friends. In their current forms, both have a much lower barrier of entry for raids. In FFXIV, for example, I could come on at any time, hit the duty finder for a tougher raid, and get into a run quickly, no need for vent, no need to worry about my class, it just worked. This also led to the average player being better at the game, as a side effect)

[Feanor.2358]

> @SirMoogie.9263 said:

> > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> >

> > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

>

> The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

>

>

 

The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

For me the sweetspot is in how the Tier 4 of the new fractals with a challenge mode are done

 

The normal mode is not easy, if you want it easier you go T1, T2 or T3. But the less forgiving mechanics are toned down slightly. And then there's the challenge mote that goes way beyond that, and has daily repeatable bonus rewards, and has no room for forgiveness.

[Azathoth.2698]

CMs EZPZ BUY RAIDS PLS

[Fatalyz.7168]

> @Lonami.2987 said:

> > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

> >

> > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

> >

> > I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

>

> I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

>

> There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

>

> **Raids need difficulty modes.**

>

> * **Easy:** For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.

> * **Normal:** The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).

> * **Hard:** A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

>

> Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

>

> If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

>

> Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

 

 

Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

 

The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

 

And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

[Blaeys.3102]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

 

The cost effective argument is kinda negated by the introduction of challenge motes into raids. This is especially true when Crystal makes the statement "The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty." If that is the case, tune the regular version for a larger audience and just make the CMs repeatable and call it a day. If they are happy with the difficulty of the CM on what they agree is one of the easiest fights, that seems like it addresses the issue nicely.

[Zefiris.8297]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

 

Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.

1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)

2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it

3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is *the* reason for a MMO to have retention

 

This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

[Rainiris.1975]

Eventually you willll have to lower the difficulty of thtese instances. Raids are bound to find the same issues as every coop in GW1. Time to time.

[Fatalyz.7168]

> @Blaeys.3102 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

>

> The cost effective argument is kinda negated by the introduction of challenge motes into raids. This is especially true when Crystal makes the statement "The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty." If that is the case, tune the regular version for a larger audience and just make the CMs repeatable and call it a day. If they are happy with the difficulty of the CM on what they agree is one of the easiest fights, that seems like it addresses the issue nicely.

 

I took Crystal's statement to mean that they felt that the normal MO fight should have been CM level or just below, while the CM could have been more difficult.

 

And it is a cost effective argument. There are only so many resources for raids (read: a small team or two). Had the CM's not been done, more polish could have been put on the singular difficulty levels, for a better overall feel, and it could have possibly been released much sooner than the 9 months it took. When you only have so many resources, there is only so much that you can do with the time that you have. If it isn't enough, you either allow for more time or hire more resources for it, neither of which appear to interest Anet in doing. And I can understand that, they are by and large, a huge success, within their demographic.

[Nike Porphyrogenita.8137]

I'm begging the usual suspects to stop with this topic. Its been beaten to death, brought back to life, beaten again, brought back again, and now killed. Blaeys, Astral, can we agree that this is the last time? If you find you now have too much time on your hands I can suggest dozens of more productive topics if needed.

[Lonami.2987]

> @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > @Lonami.2987 said:

> > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > > New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

> > >

> > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

> > >

> > > I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

> >

> > I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

> >

> > There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

> >

> > **Raids need difficulty modes.**

> >

> > * **Easy:** For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.

> > * **Normal:** The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).

> > * **Hard:** A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

> >

> > Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

> >

> > If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

> >

> > Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

>

>

> Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

>

> The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

>

> And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

 

So, I guess you love trio and escort, then? Because that's what we'll be getting again and again instead of good bosses, because so many of you are so pointlessly against difficulty modes.

 

If you think raids will remain exclusive for good players, you couldn't be more wrong. Raids, as any content, need a healthy population to be supported. They won't be wasting resources on endgame content only a few experience, when they could just make more open world casual content, and get more players, and thus more money. They will stop making raids if there's not enough people playing them.

 

Difficulty modes are the only way to make sure raids stay hard. Without them, you'll keep getting easy mode bosses shoehorned in with every raid, with their good mechanics removed and put into challenge motes. They already confirmed the next raid will have two bosses and one event. That's one less boss because you don't want raids to cater to everyone on their own way.

 

Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

[Lonami.2987]

> @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > @Lonami.2987 said:

> > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > > New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

> > >

> > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

> > >

> > > I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

> >

> > I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

> >

> > There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

> >

> > **Raids need difficulty modes.**

> >

> > * **Easy:** For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.

> > * **Normal:** The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).

> > * **Hard:** A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

> >

> > Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

> >

> > If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

> >

> > Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

>

>

> Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

>

> The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

>

> And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

 

So, I guess you love trio and escort, then? Because that's what we'll be getting again and again instead of good bosses, because so many of you are so pointlessly against difficulty modes.

 

If you think raids will remain exclusive for good players, you couldn't be more wrong. Raids, as any content, need a healthy population to be supported. They won't be wasting resources on endgame content only a few experience, when they could just make more open world casual content, and get more players, and thus more money. They will stop making raids if there's not enough people playing them.

 

Difficulty modes are the only way to make sure raids stay hard. Without them, you'll keep getting easy mode bosses shoehorned in with every raid, with their good mechanics removed and put into challenge motes. They already confirmed the next raid will have two bosses and one event. That's one less boss because you don't want raids to cater to everyone on their own way.

 

Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @SirMoogie.9263 said:

> > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> >

> > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

>

> The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

>

>

 

This.. is actually a pretty important question.

 

But I feel that most of the content isn't designed for someone's skill level. It's designed for gear. You could be the worst PvE player in the world, and still beat a raid boss because there's nothing to keep you on your toes.

[SkullProX.7083]

> @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > @SirMoogie.9263 said:

> > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > >

> > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

> >

> > The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

> >

> >

>

> They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

>

> At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

 

And what's better, a not working system with more content, or a working system with less content?

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

>

> We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

 

I fully support the raid team focusing on pushing more raids that I like faster. That said, would it actually be possible to have the living world team deliver the story of raids? Like why use an instance only once?

 

Spoilers/Example: When bloodstone fen exploded, non-raiders discovered the story of wing1-3 by reading books. Would it have been too hard to get an episode/story instance of the living world to explore a "cleared" raid instance. So episode 1, go press F at a funeral, go to rata novus, meet Canach who is looking for Caudecus. Instead of going straight to bloodstone fen, marjory mentions that she heard that a band of mercenaries (raiders) slaughtered their way through some weird cultist stuff and Caudecus might be there. I picked Marjory because she is a detective necromancer except she never actually detectives stuff. So you walk into wing 1 (not an easy mote and balanced by the living world team). Talk to marjory about bandits and white mantle connections, see river of souls (fight a few ghosts balanced by the living world team). A gorseval reforms (it's just ghosts voltroning afterall, there can be more than one and again balanced by living world team to solo). Kill that. Etc... eventually a clue at the end of wing 3 points to bloodstone fen because white mantle/lazerus is maybe resurrected and then the story continues as normal.

 

TLDR: Raid team continues pushing out great content without easy mode. Casual audience also gets the story of the raids balanced by the living world team.

[Lonami.2987]

> @Blaeys.3102 said:

> > @meeflak.9714 said:

> > So you know that raids are accessible to anyone who wants to put in the effort?

>

> Just because I am able to pull together and lead a raid group every week doesn't mean I have to agree with the raiding model in the game.

>

> I lead a guild with more than 150 active members (more than 250 have logged on in the past two weeks). I raid with approximately 12 of those people for four hours spread across two nights each week.

>

> But I also know many more who would enjoy raids in a less intensive format. It isn't because they kitten at the game. It isn't because they are lazy. It is just that they enjoy the game in different ways - and, to be honest, I would enjoy playing that content in a less intensive format with them.

>

> And, the idea that those people - my friends that I enjoy playing with - will not enjoy aspects of the story because of what I believe to be faulty and restrictive design is, at the very minimum, depressing.

>

> Like most things, it isn't a black and white issue - and just because someone raids doesn't mean they agree with the model Anet uses.

 

Million times this. I have friends who are absolute beasts at the game, and friends who are pretty casual. I can play fractals with all of them, but I can't play raids with the casual ones, and that's very depressing, for everyone involved.

 

Training isn't useful, because most of them don't have the correct gear to begin with. Ascended is hard to get if you don't play often enough, and many stats are very expensive to craft too. Exotics work most of the time, but they're super expensive to craft as well, and you can't expect poor people to spend all their money for just a training session.

 

I want raids harder than what we have now, and I want raids easier than what we have now. I want both things, because I want a real challenge, but I want to play with my noob friends and teach them to raid too.

 

Something like this would have zero negative impact on raids.

 

> @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

> > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

> >

> > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

>

> I fully support the raid team focusing on pushing more raids that I like faster. That said, would it actually be possible to have the living world team deliver the story of raids? Like why use an instance only once?

>

> Spoilers/Example: When bloodstone fen exploded, non-raiders discovered the story of wing1-3 by reading books. Would it have been too hard to get an episode/story instance of the living world to explore a "cleared" raid instance. So episode 1, go press F at a funeral, go to rata novus, meet Canach who is looking for Caudecus. Instead of going straight to bloodstone fen, marjory mentions that she heard that a band of mercenaries (raiders) slaughtered their way through some weird cultist stuff and Caudecus might be there. I picked Marjory because she is a detective necromancer except she never actually detectives stuff. So you walk into wing 1 (not an easy mote and balanced by the living world team). Talk to marjory about bandits and white mantle connections, see river of souls (fight a few ghosts balanced by the living world team). A gorseval reforms (it's just ghosts voltroning afterall, there can be more than one and again balanced by living world team to solo). Kill that. Etc... eventually a clue at the end of wing 3 points to bloodstone fen because white mantle/lazerus is maybe resurrected and then the story continues as normal.

>

> TLDR: Raid team continues pushing out great content without easy mode. Casual audience also gets the story of the raids balanced by the living world team.

 

That would have been the ideal solution for the story problems of Forsaken Thicket in relationship to Living World season 3. The White Mantle came out of nowhere for a lot of people, and a story mission dealing with the raid aftermath would have been perfect to clear things up.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

>

> We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

>

> I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

 

As of now the 2 fractal cms they have added are on par and in cases harder than the actual raids. Is this an issue with the fractals being to hard or raids just turning abit easier? Id love to hear because i absolutely love the cm's and how they bring raid lvl challenge for 5 man groups while they dont detrack from the t4 overall difficulty.

[smitske.4912]

> @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

>

> We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

>

> I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

 

Hijacking a bit here but your post is the prime example of why showing the avatar for upvotes/downvotes/helpful is a terrible idea. It just becomes too much.

[Fatalyz.7168]

> @Lonami.2987 said:

> Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

 

I have, and that is OK.

 

Raids are niche content in this game (READ: not meant to cater to every taste, or specifically the extremes, those that want easier vs harder). I am ok with them staying that way, as I do not want to see this turn into a raid-centric game. Yes, they could make the different mods, but that isn't the vision that they have for their version of raids, and their vision does not have to follow what others have done. Is it a bad choice? Perhaps, only time will tell. Right now, it is saying that they are a success.

 

Edit: To add, I thoroughly enjoy all of the bosses, except Xera. Buggy/laggy leylines are what kill it for me, otherwise the fight is fun. I enjoy the easier fights of Trio and Escort (for those I usually take the solo role, back warg/mortars, or one run of Trio I was solo chrono, so I ended up doing bees, pulling mobs, letting out wargs, and then the flame barrels for Nutella), as well as the more difficult fights like Matt and Diemos.

[Fatalyz.7168]

> @SkullProX.7083 said:

> > @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > > @SirMoogie.9263 said:

> > > > @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> > > >

> > > > We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

> > >

> > > The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

> >

> > At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

>

> And what's better, a not working system with more content, or a working system with less content?

>

 

The current system works. Maybe not for everyone, but then that fits right in with what Crystal said that their expectations were. If the system didn't work, then people wouldn't be clearing full raid bosss weekly.

 

So to answer your question, I'll take the already existing system, that works, and more content.