shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > Quote me saying that I'm looking for free shinies. You're literally making things up and putting words into my mouth to make up for the fact that the only thing you've been saying this entire time is, "You're wrong." Yet you've failed time and time again to actually prove it. > > Quote me where I'm exaggerating. > > Quote me on my absurd claims. > > You can't. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Nah, I won't bother. It's all there already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Tails.9372" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > You're 100% incorrect. > > > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Ad Infinitum](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum): _"Ad Infinitum is a legendary back item obtainable through Fractals of the Mists."_ > > > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Fractals of the Mists](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists): _"(Fractals of the Mists) Type: Dungeon."_ > > > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Dungeon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon): _"Dungeons are optional party-based PvE instances."_ > > > > So, yes. PvE does have a representative backpack. PvE has Ad Infinitum. You get Ad Infinitum from Fractals of the Mists. Fractals of the Mists are classified as Dungeons. Dungeons are defined as: "optional party-based PvE instances." > Your missing the point. I never said that Ad Infinitum isn't **a** PvE backpack, it's just not **the** PvE backpack in the same way as Warbringer is for WvW. Warbringer is an overarcing reward for playing WvW, the same just isn't true for Ad Infinitum in regards to PvE. It's just like raid armor: a special reward for sub-content. > Ad Infinitum is **the** PvE backpiece because it is the **only** PvE legendary backpiece. _Just as how_ Warbringer is **the** WvW backpiece because is is the **only** WvW legendary backpiece. _Just as how_ The Ascension is **the** PvP backpiece because it is the **only** PvP legendary backpiece. It doesn't matter how many different types of sub-content there is. Following your logic, The Ascension isn't the overarching PvP legendary backpiece, but rather the PvP **League** legendary backpiece. That makes no sense. Each gamemode has there own specific legendary backpiece, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. It may not mean we will get multiple paths, but affording the ability to acquire special skins exclusive to each gamemode is healthy and the right way to proceed with things. PvE has continual updates, each providing exclusive skins and other rewards to _that_ gamemode ONLY. PvP and WvW receive neither of these. We're only asking to be treated the same. It's not fair to ignore 2/3 of the gamemodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > >it's the deviation from the foundation principals of this game that are the problem. > > It's called "evolution". Or if you prefer "adaptability". Through the years ANet have tried different approaches in various aspects of the game - trait system, reward structures, endgame content, even monetization. They drop some, they introduce some, they change some. That's a normal process for a game of 5+ years. You can't expect game design from before 2012 to work the same way in 2018. The market changes, the players' expectation change, and so does the design philosophy. This is not really true, see, a game (or anything for that matter) only needs to "evolve" as you put it, if what they were doing was not working, so they would only need to change design direction if their design was failing. Which is why things like Sharks and Jellyfish have not needed to evolve over their millions of years, anyone could tell you that it's a bad idea to mess with what is working. Well.. "evolving" as you put it cost them around 25 Million in annual Sales (and I'm being real nice with this number to show minimal impact). But that is also how Evolution Works sometimes, it's called _survival of the fittest_ after all, and in a world of WoW Clones, moving away from your Foundation Design Philosophy of being the game for "**everyone else**" and taking pride in _not being a WoW Clone_ to then evolve into becoming a WoW Clone in a market saturated with WoW Clones.. Well, in the end of things, No one ever said Evolution was Intelligent Design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. > > This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. > > People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. This is your biggest problem ... somehow you have convinced yourself that things in MMO are about 'being fair' and that simply isn't the truth of these matters. You need to take a serious look around you. Fairness never was or will be a driving factor for how the game gets implemented; if it was, we wouldn't have this discussion now. There wouldn't be threads about balancing or meta either. There wouldn't be threads about PVP performance. There wouldn't be threads about why certain maps have 'bad' loot. Everywhere you look in the game, in every aspect, you see unequal and unfair implementations; the game is NOT an academic experiment in making a fair MMO game; it's a business. If having everything fair was practical to implement, none of these threads would exist, because on the whole, fairness IS a desirable feature to have and Anet would have done it. Unfortunately, there **are** many practical reasons that prevent such worthy, desired implementations from getting ingame. Ignoring the reality of this truth doesn't not make your case for multiple paths. The proof is easy ... we don't have all of these desirable, fair elements in the game. If Anet had infinitely deep resources, the conversation would be different and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a larger distribution of fair elements. The reality is that resources are finite; a practical consideration when deciding what needs to be done. Ignoring this is just a lack of understanding or appreciation for the fact this is a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > You're 100% incorrect. > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Ad Infinitum](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum): _"Ad Infinitum is a legendary back item obtainable through Fractals of the Mists."_ > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Fractals of the Mists](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists): _"(Fractals of the Mists) Type: Dungeon."_ > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Dungeon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon): _"Dungeons are optional party-based PvE instances."_ > > So, yes. PvE does have a representative backpack. PvE has Ad Infinitum. You get Ad Infinitum from Fractals of the Mists. Fractals of the Mists are classified as Dungeons. Dungeons are defined as: "optional party-based PvE instances." But (like raids) they are not representative of PvE. Just like Edge of the Mists is not representative of WvW. Fact is, WvW and sPvP have _core_ legendary backpack and armor, but legendary backpack and armor in pvp are available only through sidecontent. In fact, i'm pretty sure than the number of PvE players that don't have access to _any_ legendary armor (because they do not play raids, WvW and SPvP) is greater than the total number of raiders, SPvPers and WvW players together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > > > > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > > > > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. > > > > This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. > > > > People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. > > This is your biggest problem ... somehow you have convinced yourself that things in MMO are about 'being fair' and that simply isn't the truth of these matters. You need to take a serious look around you. Fairness never was or will be a driving factor for how the game gets implemented; if it was, we wouldn't have this discussion now. There wouldn't be threads about balancing or meta either. There wouldn't be threads about PVP performance. There wouldn't be threads about why certain maps have 'bad' loot. Everywhere you look in the game, in every aspect, you see unequal and unfair implementations; the game is NOT an academic experiment in making a fair MMO game; it's a business. If having everything fair was practical to implement, none of these threads would exist, because on the whole, fairness IS a desirable feature to have and Anet would have done it. Unfortunately, there **are** many practical reasons that prevent such worthy, desired implementations from getting ingame. Ignoring the reality of this truth doesn't not make your case for multiple paths. > > The proof is easy ... we don't have all of these desirable, fair elements in the game. If Anet had infinitely deep resources, the conversation would be different and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a larger distribution of fair elements. The reality is that resources are finite; a practical consideration when deciding what needs to be done. Ignoring this is just a lack of understanding or appreciation for the fact this is a business. Fairness is quite literally what Guild Wars 2 is built around. It was designed around no gear grind, no specific roles, everyone can do everything and anything they want. Maybe this isn't the case for other MMOs, but Guild Wars 2 tried to market itself around this concept. I hope you realize you are contradicting and arguing against yourself in the same post. You say, "Fairness was never a factor in MMOs." Then follow it with, "If fairness was a factor, there wouldn't be any threads citing issues on balance/meta/PvP performance etc. etc." You're essentially saying that the game isn't fair and that's why there are so many issues. And that's completely correct... You've stated both the problem and its source. Yet, your stance on this topic seems to be that fairness is bad and that all these problems are okay? It doesn't make sense to me. If you're uptight because you want to keep Envoy skins exclusive to PvE, that's fine. But saying we're wrong for asking that PvP and WvW also receive unique legendary skins with similar transformation effects to Envoy is not. Repeating the phrase, "it isn't practical," as the reason behind your approach is neither a good nor rational as you've still yet to quote an Anet dev on it. Either way, even if a dev had previously stated it wasn't practical to implement more ways to acquire legendary armor skins, it doesn't change the fact that we're not wrong simply for wanting equal treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > You're 100% incorrect. > > > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Ad Infinitum](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum): _"Ad Infinitum is a legendary back item obtainable through Fractals of the Mists."_ > > > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Fractals of the Mists](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists): _"(Fractals of the Mists) Type: Dungeon."_ > > > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Dungeon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon): _"Dungeons are optional party-based PvE instances."_ > > > > So, yes. PvE does have a representative backpack. PvE has Ad Infinitum. You get Ad Infinitum from Fractals of the Mists. Fractals of the Mists are classified as Dungeons. Dungeons are defined as: "optional party-based PvE instances." > But (like raids) they are not representative of PvE. Just like Edge of the Mists is not representative of WvW. > Fact is, WvW and sPvP have _core_ legendary backpack and armor, but legendary backpack and armor in pvp are available only through sidecontent. In fact, i'm pretty sure than the number of PvE players that don't have access to _any_ legendary armor (because they do not play raids, WvW and SPvP) is greater than the total number of raiders, SPvPers and WvW players together. > > Raids may not be representative of PvE, but they are very clearly classified as PvE content. The fact that you're saying that Ad Infinitum isn't the PvE backpiece simply because you have to play Fractals of the Mist side content to get it is completely and utterly senseless. Following your terrible logic, there are no PvE, WvW, or PvP backpieces at all because you have to play side content to get them. PvE has fractals, WvW has borderlands/battlegrounds, and PvP has leagues. Yet I'm 100% confident that the majority of the playerbase (the ones who make sense) would disagree. There are very clearly 3 separate legendary backpieces for each gamemode. Saying otherwise is flat out wrong no matter how you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. > > It's not theoretical. There are no barriers ingame to people doing raids. It is theoretical since there actually are a lot of barriers to raid-content. It doesn't matter if you want to acknowledge that fact or not. Please let me elaborate: * One of the main-reasons is that raids are quite a strong contrast to the main game. Whereas the main-game didn't feature the holy trinity and classes were self-sufficient, raids are based on trinity-gameplay and thus deliver quite a whole different gaming-experience. Whereas the main-game is quite easy and you can be quite careless, you at least have to put in some concentration when doing raids. Whereas the main game is - arguable too - easy, raids actually feature at least some difficulty. You could actually argue that raids don't even fit into the game to begin with on a conceptual level. Nonetheless, this leads to raids being largely secluded from the main-game, which in turn often leads to players thinking that people who're only doing main-game-content aren't good players. That in turns leads to a seclusion of the raiding-community leading further into a two-class society which GW2 currently features. You even get that as argument as to why raids are the fastest aquisition-method for legendary armor quite often ("Everyone can do WvW or PvP, but not everyone can do raids."). * The lack of difficulty in main-game-content is also the main-reason why GW2 isn't really a very sociable MMORPG. You're not forced to socialize (at least on a deeper level) with other people and thus don't make all that much friends like you would do in other MMORPGs where you're often forced to team up and have downtimes to regenerate where you can chat with people. In other, more traditional MMORPGs, these mostly become the people you do group-based content with. Pair this with having basically no gear-progression in this game, having ascended stuff being craftable and not locked to instanced content like in traditional MMORPGs (where it also is the main PvE content) and you have the result that GW2 essentially can be a single-player-experience with optional multiplayer (which is in turn mostly used for OW-content). If you're not lucky and have a dedicated raid-guild, you're always dependent on random people which - in combination with aforementioned arguments - leads to absurd expectations/requirements. * GW2 makes it far too easy to exclude people for superficial reasons. LI/KPs are no proof of skill; they also aren't a proof for the opposite, the lack of skill. They're only proof that you did the specific encouter even if you may have only bought it. I'd rather have a gear/build-inspect-feature than the ability to post LI and KPs. The discriminating factor should always be skill and having both a proper build and proper gear should be more worth than superficial skill-indicators. The way it is, people who want to get into raiding have huge problems since most LFG-squads, even training-squads, have some sort of LI/KP-requirement which - in its quantity - isn't healthy for the game; it on the contrary: it hard-locks people from content. * Another problem is the horrible class-balance and the meta-madness this community suffers from. Some classes are vastly overrepresentated in raid-setups. What this game needs is a major PvE-balance-patch. Especially Chrono and Druid need at least two real alternatives. That's the balance-problem in PvE-content anyway. It's mostly always just "Need Chrono" or "Need Druid" or even both. Too many slots are "reserved" for those specializations, in the end meaning you may can't play the profession you want to. This is a real problem as that inbalance also locks out people because they can't play their profession. * All that together mostly leads to situations where you either won't be able to raid because you play the wrong profession, because you won't meet the LI/KP-requirements, because you may don't have the time for raiding in statics because you have a job and raid-times just won't fit. The problem is that this also effects own efforts. You already have the problem in fractals where a lot of people will downright leave instantly if (e.g.) they see that the ranger in the party is a soulbeast and not a druid. The setup-madness is real in this game. Pair that with everything else and you have the current situation. So yeah, there definitely are (quite high) barriers to successful raiding in GW2 and I think that ANet finally needs to adress this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > > > > > > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > > > > > > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. > > > > > > This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. > > > > > > People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. > > > > This is your biggest problem ... somehow you have convinced yourself that things in MMO are about 'being fair' and that simply isn't the truth of these matters. You need to take a serious look around you. Fairness never was or will be a driving factor for how the game gets implemented; if it was, we wouldn't have this discussion now. There wouldn't be threads about balancing or meta either. There wouldn't be threads about PVP performance. There wouldn't be threads about why certain maps have 'bad' loot. Everywhere you look in the game, in every aspect, you see unequal and unfair implementations; the game is NOT an academic experiment in making a fair MMO game; it's a business. If having everything fair was practical to implement, none of these threads would exist, because on the whole, fairness IS a desirable feature to have and Anet would have done it. Unfortunately, there **are** many practical reasons that prevent such worthy, desired implementations from getting ingame. Ignoring the reality of this truth doesn't not make your case for multiple paths. > > > > The proof is easy ... we don't have all of these desirable, fair elements in the game. If Anet had infinitely deep resources, the conversation would be different and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a larger distribution of fair elements. The reality is that resources are finite; a practical consideration when deciding what needs to be done. Ignoring this is just a lack of understanding or appreciation for the fact this is a business. > > Fairness is quite literally what Guild Wars 2 is built around. It was designed around no gear grind, no specific roles, everyone can do everything and anything they want. Maybe this isn't the case for other MMOs, but Guild Wars 2 tried to market itself around this concept. > > I hope you realize you are contradicting and arguing against yourself in the same post. > You say, "Fairness was never a factor in MMOs." > Then follow it with, "If fairness was a factor, there wouldn't be any threads citing issues on balance/meta/PvP performance etc. etc." > > You're essentially saying that the game isn't fair and that's why there are so many issues. And that's completely correct... You've stated both the problem and its source. Yet, your stance on this topic seems to be that fairness is bad and that all these problems are okay? It doesn't make sense to me. > No, that's just how you are reading into it ... I'm saying it's the reality of the game ... and many others, because they are constrained by resources. You see GW2 built around fairness? If it is, Anet does a terrible job implementing it .... I've given many examples, non-trivial, where lack of fairness is quite evident, and not because Anet simply ignores those elements either. I'm sure there are many more. Just out of pure interest, I would love to hear what you see that convinces you otherwise because I don't see many examples in the game where Anet has strived to provide fair options for players. The difference is that I don't fault them for it, you do. Again, this isn't about what's right or wrong, it's about what is practical on the business side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > > > > > > > > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. > > > > > > > > This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. > > > > > > > > People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. > > > > > > This is your biggest problem ... somehow you have convinced yourself that things in MMO are about 'being fair' and that simply isn't the truth of these matters. You need to take a serious look around you. Fairness never was or will be a driving factor for how the game gets implemented; if it was, we wouldn't have this discussion now. There wouldn't be threads about balancing or meta either. There wouldn't be threads about PVP performance. There wouldn't be threads about why certain maps have 'bad' loot. Everywhere you look in the game, in every aspect, you see unequal and unfair implementations; the game is NOT an academic experiment in making a fair MMO game; it's a business. If having everything fair was practical to implement, none of these threads would exist, because on the whole, fairness IS a desirable feature to have and Anet would have done it. Unfortunately, there **are** many practical reasons that prevent such worthy, desired implementations from getting ingame. Ignoring the reality of this truth doesn't not make your case for multiple paths. > > > > > > The proof is easy ... we don't have all of these desirable, fair elements in the game. If Anet had infinitely deep resources, the conversation would be different and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a larger distribution of fair elements. The reality is that resources are finite; a practical consideration when deciding what needs to be done. Ignoring this is just a lack of understanding or appreciation for the fact this is a business. > > > > Fairness is quite literally what Guild Wars 2 is built around. It was designed around no gear grind, no specific roles, everyone can do everything and anything they want. Maybe this isn't the case for other MMOs, but Guild Wars 2 tried to market itself around this concept. > > > > I hope you realize you are contradicting and arguing against yourself in the same post. > > You say, "Fairness was never a factor in MMOs." > > Then follow it with, "If fairness was a factor, there wouldn't be any threads citing issues on balance/meta/PvP performance etc. etc." > > > > You're essentially saying that the game isn't fair and that's why there are so many issues. And that's completely correct... You've stated both the problem and its source. Yet, your stance on this topic seems to be that fairness is bad and that all these problems are okay? It doesn't make sense to me. > > > No, that's just how you are reading into it ... I'm saying it's the reality of the game ... and many others, because they are constrained by resources. You see GW2 built around fairness? If it is, Anet does a terrible job implementing it .... I've given many examples, non-trivial, where lack of fairness is quite evident. I'm sure there are many more. Just out of pure interest, I would love to hear what you see that convinces you otherwise. > > Again, this isn't about what's right or wrong, it's about what is practical on the business side. > > It seems like you have the tendency to extremely misunderstand everything you read. It doesn't matter what anyone says, you twist their words (or genuinely cannot understand what they're saying) to fit your interests. You respond with things that are completely unrelated or out-of-the-blue to the current discussion and continue to put words into other people's mouths. I don't see the point in arguing with someone who doesn't make sense. Nor do I feel like talking with someone trapped in their own delusions. As I've said previously... Instead of: - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena - "Lolwut" - Everyone It's now: - "The lack of fairness is a problem." - Everyone - "The lack of fairness is **the** problem but at the same time it's not a problem (lolwut) because of the lack of practicality and resources." - Obtena - "This person is actually insane." - Everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Throwing around ad hominem won't help the discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tails.9372 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > Raids may not be representative of PvE, but they are very clearly classified as PvE content. The fact that you're saying that Ad Infinitum isn't the PvE backpiece simply because you have to play Fractals of the Mist side content to get it is completely and utterly senseless. Have you even read what he said? He said that these things do not represent PvE, not that they're not PvE content. But go ahead, explain to us which part of getting Ad Infinitum represents raids nstuff. > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > Following your terrible logic, there are no PvE, WvW, or PvP backpieces at all because you have to play side content to get them. Well then tell me, which WvW side content do you **have to** play in order to get Warbringer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > > > > > > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > > > > > > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. > > > > > > This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. > > > > > > People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. > > > > This is your biggest problem ... somehow you have convinced yourself that things in MMO are about 'being fair' and that simply isn't the truth of these matters. You need to take a serious look around you. Fairness never was or will be a driving factor for how the game gets implemented; if it was, we wouldn't have this discussion now. There wouldn't be threads about balancing or meta either. There wouldn't be threads about PVP performance. There wouldn't be threads about why certain maps have 'bad' loot. Everywhere you look in the game, in every aspect, you see unequal and unfair implementations; the game is NOT an academic experiment in making a fair MMO game; it's a business. If having everything fair was practical to implement, none of these threads would exist, because on the whole, fairness IS a desirable feature to have and Anet would have done it. Unfortunately, there **are** many practical reasons that prevent such worthy, desired implementations from getting ingame. Ignoring the reality of this truth doesn't not make your case for multiple paths. > > > > The proof is easy ... we don't have all of these desirable, fair elements in the game. If Anet had infinitely deep resources, the conversation would be different and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a larger distribution of fair elements. The reality is that resources are finite; a practical consideration when deciding what needs to be done. Ignoring this is just a lack of understanding or appreciation for the fact this is a business. > > Fairness is quite literally what Guild Wars 2 is built around. It was designed around no gear grind, no specific roles, everyone can do everything and anything they want. Maybe this isn't the case for other MMOs, but Guild Wars 2 tried to market itself around this concept. > > I hope you realize you are contradicting and arguing against yourself in the same post. > You say, "Fairness was never a factor in MMOs." > Then follow it with, "If fairness was a factor, there wouldn't be any threads citing issues on balance/meta/PvP performance etc. etc." > > You're essentially saying that the game isn't fair and that's why there are so many issues. And that's completely correct... You've stated both the problem and its source. Yet, your stance on this topic seems to be that fairness is bad and that all these problems are okay? It doesn't make sense to me. > > If you're uptight because you want to keep Envoy skins exclusive to PvE, that's fine. But saying we're wrong for asking that PvP and WvW also receive unique legendary skins with similar transformation effects to Envoy is not. Repeating the phrase, "it isn't practical," as the reason behind your approach is neither a good nor rational as you've still yet to quote an Anet dev on it. Either way, even if a dev had previously stated it wasn't practical to implement more ways to acquire legendary armor skins, it doesn't change the fact that we're not wrong simply for wanting equal treatment. As an avid wvw player, i would rather have anet use resources to make new armor skins for pve content (eg fractal armor, which would be awesome). Wvw should get more and better rewards, and besides, the mode has more pressing issues to address. I am happy they implemented leggy armor in wvw at all. And, let's face it, you can afk and leech pips in outnumbered/normal maps, week after week (still tedious but doable), whereas pve raids dont offer that (you can buy raids, still, but it is super expensive to buy every LI). They require more effort. So, let them have their exclusive skin. I think envoy armor looks very ugly (Except maybe heavy armor skin). The T3 wvw looks so much better! (subjective, i know). We cant have equal treatment in everything, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > >it's the deviation from the foundation principals of this game that are the problem. > > > > It's called "evolution". Or if you prefer "adaptability". Through the years ANet have tried different approaches in various aspects of the game - trait system, reward structures, endgame content, even monetization. They drop some, they introduce some, they change some. That's a normal process for a game of 5+ years. You can't expect game design from before 2012 to work the same way in 2018. The market changes, the players' expectation change, and so does the design philosophy. > > This is not really true, see, a game (or anything for that matter) only needs to "evolve" as you put it, if what they were doing was not working, so they would only need to change design direction if their design was failing. Which is why things like Sharks and Jellyfish have not needed to evolve over their millions of years, anyone could tell you that it's a bad idea to mess with what is working. > > Well.. "evolving" as you put it cost them around 25 Million in annual Sales (and I'm being real nice with this number to show minimal impact). But that is also how Evolution Works sometimes, it's called _survival of the fittest_ after all, and in a world of WoW Clones, moving away from your Foundation Design Philosophy of being the game for "**everyone else**" and taking pride in _not being a WoW Clone_ to then evolve into becoming a WoW Clone in a market saturated with WoW Clones.. Well, in the end of things, No one ever said Evolution was Intelligent Design. Evolution is a process driven mostly by changing conditions. Which is true in this case - the game market is changing, and is changing a lot over 5+ years. What you say is true if you're top of the food chain, but see, that only applies to specific niches. Like sharks, or, say, Minecraft. A MMO usually tries NOT to be niche *on purpose*. They generally rely on large playerbase and large revenues, needed to cover their large development and support costs. Furthermore, you're drawing wrong conclusions based on their earning reports. A decline in sales is normal. Nothing keeps the same revenues it get at launch, **nothing**. Even subscription-based games will show a decline in revenue as they age. (By the way the subscription model is a nice example of evolution, as MMOs at large dropped it and in some cases converted to microtransactions). So no. ANet's decisions and adaptability have kept GW2 in business and in good shape. You can find many MMOs which launched after it and are already de facto dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Throwing around ad hominem won't help the discussion... I gave you a thumbs up and completely agree with what you said because you pretty much hit the nail on its head. However, I'm done arguing with someone who: - Continues to contradict themselves in every post - Refuses to actually cite any official sources/developer responses to back up their claims - Repeatedly citing the lack of resources/practicality (where did they get this information from) as the reason for saying that asking for fairness is wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. > > > > > > > > > > This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. > > > > > > > > > > People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. > > > > > > > > This is your biggest problem ... somehow you have convinced yourself that things in MMO are about 'being fair' and that simply isn't the truth of these matters. You need to take a serious look around you. Fairness never was or will be a driving factor for how the game gets implemented; if it was, we wouldn't have this discussion now. There wouldn't be threads about balancing or meta either. There wouldn't be threads about PVP performance. There wouldn't be threads about why certain maps have 'bad' loot. Everywhere you look in the game, in every aspect, you see unequal and unfair implementations; the game is NOT an academic experiment in making a fair MMO game; it's a business. If having everything fair was practical to implement, none of these threads would exist, because on the whole, fairness IS a desirable feature to have and Anet would have done it. Unfortunately, there **are** many practical reasons that prevent such worthy, desired implementations from getting ingame. Ignoring the reality of this truth doesn't not make your case for multiple paths. > > > > > > > > The proof is easy ... we don't have all of these desirable, fair elements in the game. If Anet had infinitely deep resources, the conversation would be different and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a larger distribution of fair elements. The reality is that resources are finite; a practical consideration when deciding what needs to be done. Ignoring this is just a lack of understanding or appreciation for the fact this is a business. > > > > > > Fairness is quite literally what Guild Wars 2 is built around. It was designed around no gear grind, no specific roles, everyone can do everything and anything they want. Maybe this isn't the case for other MMOs, but Guild Wars 2 tried to market itself around this concept. > > > > > > I hope you realize you are contradicting and arguing against yourself in the same post. > > > You say, "Fairness was never a factor in MMOs." > > > Then follow it with, "If fairness was a factor, there wouldn't be any threads citing issues on balance/meta/PvP performance etc. etc." > > > > > > You're essentially saying that the game isn't fair and that's why there are so many issues. And that's completely correct... You've stated both the problem and its source. Yet, your stance on this topic seems to be that fairness is bad and that all these problems are okay? It doesn't make sense to me. > > > > > No, that's just how you are reading into it ... I'm saying it's the reality of the game ... and many others, because they are constrained by resources. You see GW2 built around fairness? If it is, Anet does a terrible job implementing it .... I've given many examples, non-trivial, where lack of fairness is quite evident. I'm sure there are many more. Just out of pure interest, I would love to hear what you see that convinces you otherwise. > > > > Again, this isn't about what's right or wrong, it's about what is practical on the business side. > > > > > > It seems like you have the tendency to extremely misunderstand everything you read. It doesn't matter what anyone says, you twist their words (or genuinely cannot understand what they're saying) to fit your interests. You respond with things that are completely unrelated or out-of-the-blue to the current discussion and continue to put words into other people's mouths. > > I don't see the point in arguing with someone who doesn't make sense. Nor do I feel like talking with someone trapped in their own delusions. > > As I've said previously... > > Instead of: > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > - "Lolwut" - Everyone > > It's now: > > - "The lack of fairness is a problem." - Everyone > - "The lack of fairness is **the** problem but at the same time it's not a problem (lolwut) because of the lack of practicality and resources." - Obtena > - "This person is actually insane." - Everyone I have not strayed from my position ONCE in this thread; what you are demonstrating here is just your self-serving interpretation to attempt to make me look like a flake, which I can't be bothered to continually correct you on; it has no bearing on this discussion and is a diversion tactic ... as some astute person already noticed, you tend to like to attack people to discredit their ideas when you want to avoid addressing direct questions posed to you ... and I'm not at all surprised because your answers are shallow and seem to be ignoring the game as a business, not an experiment in player satisfaction. My position is clear; the implementation of multiple paths is limited by practical realities of the game, not about fairness. That includes the position I have that ANYONE can raid to get legendary armor (which is ironically, quite fair). Those are NOT mutually exclusive or contradictory positions or statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Tails.9372" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > Raids may not be representative of PvE, but they are very clearly classified as PvE content. The fact that you're saying that Ad Infinitum isn't the PvE backpiece simply because you have to play Fractals of the Mist side content to get it is completely and utterly senseless. > Have you even read what he said? He said that these things do not represent PvE, not that they're not PvE content. But go ahead, explain to us which part of getting Ad Infinitum represents raids nstuff. Fractals are very clearly defined as PvE content in the Official Wiki. They do represent PvE just as how Leagues represent PvP despite being "side-content." Quote me where I said, "Ad Infinitum represents raids." because I've yet to see any actual examples as to where I'm exaggerating or "claiming ridiculous things." Everything I've said has either been backed up with quotes or official sources. Both of which, the people arguing with me seem to lack in their entirety. > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > Following your terrible logic, there are no PvE, WvW, or PvP backpieces at all because you have to play side content to get them. > Well then tell me, which WvW side content do you **have to** play in order to get Warbringer? Sure. If Raids and Fractals of the Mist are considered as "side-content" in PvE... and Leagues are considered as "side-content" in PvP... It must stand to reason that Battlegrounds and Borderlands are "side-content" in WvW. You are unable to earn Warbringer through any other WvW content asides from Battlegrounds/Borderlands, just as how... You are unable to earn Ad Infinitum through any other PvE content asides from Fractals... You are unable to earn The Ascension through any other PvP content asides from Leagues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may not be a contest, but it is a pretty good indicator of where the majority of opinions lie. Many people agree with what the OP is saying. Not many people agree with what you have to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again ... it's irrelevant with who is thumbs uping who ... that's not a compelling argument. This isn't a morality issue, it's a practical one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know why Anet put legendary armor in raids ... where it was placed is not about 'fairness' or disrespect to people that don't want to do raids. If it wasn't about fairness in the first place, it makes no sense to justify multiple paths because of fairness now. You aren't thinking about the fact this is a business ... there are practical limitations. > > > > > > > > > > > > This whole issue is about fairness. The fact that you're saying otherwise just proves why you have so few thumbs ups in the first place. You don't know what's happening and can't contribute meaningfully. > > > > > > > > > > > > People are saying it's not fair that PvE is getting all of these things while PvP and WvW are left in the dust. It doesn't matter if it's practical or not. This is a big issue and stating that it is not one because it may or may not be practical to implement is foolish. You still have yet to provide proof as to where Anet said this wasn't practical. If you're claiming they did, then the burden of proof lies on you. > > > > > > > > > > This is your biggest problem ... somehow you have convinced yourself that things in MMO are about 'being fair' and that simply isn't the truth of these matters. You need to take a serious look around you. Fairness never was or will be a driving factor for how the game gets implemented; if it was, we wouldn't have this discussion now. There wouldn't be threads about balancing or meta either. There wouldn't be threads about PVP performance. There wouldn't be threads about why certain maps have 'bad' loot. Everywhere you look in the game, in every aspect, you see unequal and unfair implementations; the game is NOT an academic experiment in making a fair MMO game; it's a business. If having everything fair was practical to implement, none of these threads would exist, because on the whole, fairness IS a desirable feature to have and Anet would have done it. Unfortunately, there **are** many practical reasons that prevent such worthy, desired implementations from getting ingame. Ignoring the reality of this truth doesn't not make your case for multiple paths. > > > > > > > > > > The proof is easy ... we don't have all of these desirable, fair elements in the game. If Anet had infinitely deep resources, the conversation would be different and it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a larger distribution of fair elements. The reality is that resources are finite; a practical consideration when deciding what needs to be done. Ignoring this is just a lack of understanding or appreciation for the fact this is a business. > > > > > > > > Fairness is quite literally what Guild Wars 2 is built around. It was designed around no gear grind, no specific roles, everyone can do everything and anything they want. Maybe this isn't the case for other MMOs, but Guild Wars 2 tried to market itself around this concept. > > > > > > > > I hope you realize you are contradicting and arguing against yourself in the same post. > > > > You say, "Fairness was never a factor in MMOs." > > > > Then follow it with, "If fairness was a factor, there wouldn't be any threads citing issues on balance/meta/PvP performance etc. etc." > > > > > > > > You're essentially saying that the game isn't fair and that's why there are so many issues. And that's completely correct... You've stated both the problem and its source. Yet, your stance on this topic seems to be that fairness is bad and that all these problems are okay? It doesn't make sense to me. > > > > > > > No, that's just how you are reading into it ... I'm saying it's the reality of the game ... and many others, because they are constrained by resources. You see GW2 built around fairness? If it is, Anet does a terrible job implementing it .... I've given many examples, non-trivial, where lack of fairness is quite evident. I'm sure there are many more. Just out of pure interest, I would love to hear what you see that convinces you otherwise. > > > > > > Again, this isn't about what's right or wrong, it's about what is practical on the business side. > > > > > > > > > > It seems like you have the tendency to extremely misunderstand everything you read. It doesn't matter what anyone says, you twist their words (or genuinely cannot understand what they're saying) to fit your interests. You respond with things that are completely unrelated or out-of-the-blue to the current discussion and continue to put words into other people's mouths. > > > > I don't see the point in arguing with someone who doesn't make sense. Nor do I feel like talking with someone trapped in their own delusions. > > > > As I've said previously... > > > > Instead of: > > > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > > - "Lolwut" - Everyone > > > > It's now: > > > > - "The lack of fairness is a problem." - Everyone > > - "The lack of fairness is **the** problem but at the same time it's not a problem (lolwut) because of the lack of practicality and resources." - Obtena > > - "This person is actually insane." - Everyone > > I have not strayed from my position ONCE in this thread; what you are demonstrating here is just your interpretation, which I can't be bothered to continually correct you on. My position is that the implementation of multiple paths is limited by practical realities of the game, not about fairness. That includes the position I have that ANYONE can raid to get legendary armor (which is ironically, quite fair). Those are NOT mutually exclusive or contradictory positions or statements. Again. You seem to have the tendency to extremely misunderstand everything you read. I've said nothing about whether or not you've strayed from your position, yet you respond with that as if that was my main issue (or any issue at all). You still fail to cite a developer commenting on the lack of practicality and resources as the reason behind not implementing multiple paths towards legendary armor. And yes, they are contradictory when you say that the lack of fairness is causing issues, yet at the same time aren't issues because of the lack of practicality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Implying I was contradicting myself WAS related to your comment. I'm not misunderstandin. I don't need to cite a developer ... the fact we don't have it is proof enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I don't need to cite a developer ... the fact we don't have it is proof enough. "The lack of proof is the proof." - Obtena Hence why I say you're contradictory and insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Another enormous waste of development time? No thanks! /votes NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > Throwing around ad hominem won't help the discussion... > > I gave you a thumbs up and completely agree with what you said because you pretty much hit the nail on its head. > > However, I'm done arguing with someone who: > - Continues to contradict themselves in every post > - Refuses to actually cite any official sources/developer responses to back up their claims > - Repeatedly citing the lack of resources/practicality (where did they get this information from) as the reason for saying that asking for fairness is wrong But insulting people still isn't a solution. People have different opinions. Either they agree on a consensus or not. That's how the world works. No need to get rude and insult someone just because s/he has a different opinion. I also don't necessarily agree with her/him. I'd be content with reaching a consesus where raid-accessibility should be improved though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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