Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Which is fairly worthless in terms of "data." It's basically anecdotal at best. Forum polls typically have very small sample sizes and biasing locations, which makes them junk. As I said, the only polling that would be *at all* valid beyond just shooting the breeze between us, would be if it were done using a relatively large random sample of people playing the game. Even if it were players asking other players in game, it would still be biased by being based on those players who happened to be at the location the pollster was at. For example, polling within the Mistlock Sanctuary would bias results in favor of people who spend money, and also likely to some degree people who play Fractals (although I'm sure plenty there do not). polling within LA would bias toward F2Ps and people who like to stand around all day, like crafters/traders or showoffs. Polling inside the Aerodrome would obviously be highly biased in favor of raids, while polling outside of it would likely see a lot less raiders. None of these locations would be *all* one thing or another, obviously, but the results would be heavily biased, and plenty of people would be missed entirely, like players running world completion on random maps, or going through personal story, or something of that sort.

>

> We're better served just speaking for ourselves and making compelling arguments. It's up to ANet to take the steps to actually weigh player populations.

 

So when the polls here are useless, why do you use them trying to prove your points?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Which is fairly worthless in terms of "data." It's basically anecdotal at best. Forum polls typically have very small sample sizes and biasing locations, which makes them junk. As I said, the only polling that would be *at all* valid beyond just shooting the breeze between us, would be if it were done using a relatively large random sample of people playing the game. Even if it were players asking other players in game, it would still be biased by being based on those players who happened to be at the location the pollster was at. For example, polling within the Mistlock Sanctuary would bias results in favor of people who spend money, and also likely to some degree people who play Fractals (although I'm sure plenty there do not). polling within LA would bias toward F2Ps and people who like to stand around all day, like crafters/traders or showoffs. Polling inside the Aerodrome would obviously be highly biased in favor of raids, while polling outside of it would likely see a lot less raiders. None of these locations would be *all* one thing or another, obviously, but the results would be heavily biased, and plenty of people would be missed entirely, like players running world completion on random maps, or going through personal story, or something of that sort.

> >

> > We're better served just speaking for ourselves and making compelling arguments. It's up to ANet to take the steps to actually weigh player populations.

>

> So when the polls here are useless, why do you use them trying to prove your points?

 

As I say, it's anecdotal. It's interesting enough to discuss amongst ourselves, but it's worthless in terms of making final judgements.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> raids have the slowest release circle already of all pve content in the game

Yes. If we're comparing releases in the same amount of time, then obviously 5 full raid wings are a much smaller amount of content than 4 new fractals (each fractal being smaller than a raid wing).[/sarcasm]

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

In my opinion, raiding is garbage in this game. I'm glad they have it because many player love it, but I wouldn't personally care to see resources put toward creating multiple modes of content I just don't find appealing. This isn't a trinity game, and instanced PvE is simply not very good as a result. That's my take on it.

[Necronaut.6028]

As a returning player who just came back a few months ago, I'd like to chime in. I got bored of GW2 in 2012 and decided to quit, I then gave the game another chance again six years later. With the release of two xpacs, I'm having lots of fun. I would be more inclined to venture into the world of GW2 raiding if it had an easy/normal mode. One of the things that really turned me off to fractals six years ago was that they were confusing/difficult to understand, though I'm much better at them today. I don't play games to get frustrated or overly confused, but I love orchestrated events with real people that are hands on, but not too difficult to master. World bosses, bounty hunting, ect. I love watching big groups of players smash a boss like a pinata, without the risk of frequent wipes, arguments, or drama.

 

I avoid raids & such because I don't feel like partaking in the whole "raid leader (x) authoritarian scrutiny" shtick anymore, and if I wanted to learn a complicated and lengthy rotation, I would do so outside of the game (learning to play the piano, or a guitar). Hardcore gaming for me had its heyday in 2003-2008, yet it doesn't really fit a broad audience in today's entirely entertainment saturated world. My attitude for the most part is much more "couch gamer" relaxation centered now a days, so I'd always be willing to give entertainment avenues a chance which support that: I.E. easy/normal raids.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Now to the matter at hand, we've discussed plausible changes to vg to allow it to become easier to handle with an inexperienced group, which of the aforementioned changes would best fit to be an invitation to people to play and enjoy the game mode? An explanation of your stance would be appreciated. As a refresher:

>

> >1) increase the radius of greens to ensure it is more noticeable and easier to get to. Greens still wipes the party to compensate.

> >2) Increase the time it takes for greens to close, and reduce the number of people required to save the group from it. Greens still wipes the party to compensate.

> >3)Reduce the randomness of green's spawn locations

> >4)Reduction of the green's damage

> >5)QOL with the visual clutter

> >6)Increased time for blue circles to detonate

> >7)Reduction of the seeker orbs, either the radius of it or the pulsing damage

> >8)Removal of the bullet hell

> >9)Introduction of a "mistlock singularity" in the raid instance with 3-5 stacks

> >10)Reduction of the boss' bullet storm attack (not to be confused with the passive bullet hell) and/or reduction of its break bar.

 

Solid points. I have only been in VG, so, I am not sure what other raids provide in the way of content. So to be honest, I am not sure what the "Bullet Hell" is.

 

**Removing Mechanics:**

 

I am not sure if _removing_ a Mechanic is the right thing to do. In other MMO's I played, that had Difficulty Scales, Mechanics were not Removed, they were just more forgiving. I mean, it might be for the best to remove them, but, I think if it does not need to come to that, it shouldn't.

 

Case in point, The Damage from Missing a Circle in VG. In most cases wipes the group. If that was changed to only doing say 5K Damage, players could still see and learn that mechanic, but if they fumbled, it did not end the encounter for them or the rest of the group. Equally so, if the Damage Field on the Floor in VG was reduced, so players could accidentally step on it, or even power heal through standing on it to get the green circle, that would also make the real fun raid a team work experience because most characters are not built for healing, so they would not have the means to solo-heal though standing on the damage floor to get the green circle, but a if a heal spec Druid/Ele assisted them, they could pull it off.

 

So it builds that team dynamic, which is the overall goal of a Raid like content.

 

In this case, All or Nothing Mechanics (Miss the Circle and we all Die) are annoying, because it allows the group to blame that one person that missed the circle, now that works for players that enjoy high stress mechanics, but not so much for casuals or people looking to "get into things" they like that ability to make a mistake during the raid and it not end the whole thing.

 

**As for your idea of Mistlock**

 

I could get behind an idea like that. I had a discussion before about Legendary Armor having a "Legendary Slot" that would have functioned like an Agony Resit Slot, just against Legendary Mobs and Effects. While not needed to do the Raids, because some players are so good they can do raids in greens, but for other players working their way up slowly, having that slot, could make doing the higher level raids easier on them and give them the confidence to move above their comfort zone. Equally so, this slot would only be for Raids, Only Affect Raids, and only be Sold in Raids.

 

I am not even sure if I like my own idea on that one, as any slot will look like a "Power" slot, but, it was just an idea. And like any idea, there is always room to talk about them politely.

 

But, singularity ideas, a lot of that depends on how they are added or put in.

 

**Story**

I personally think there needs to be more _Story_ and instruction. Like for example, a Cut Scene that explains each mechanic, like a _Story Mode_, that cannot be skipped, so that everyone in the group gets a run down on how things work, by the NPC. "This mob can only be hurt by Conditions, like bleeding" and they say it.. in their little Monologue Screen.

 

Also..maybe toss out something to talk about outside "Loot and More Loot" why am I here again?

 

In a way, just the Cut Scenes, that can't be skipped, would be enough to stop anyone that simply wants to grind the content. (nothing like 10 min of monologue to really slow the pace down)

 

Just some ideas.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > And this is why I wanted to steer the conversation towards how easy mode should work. Discussing whetber or not we should have 1 always ended up with: it'll work because x company did it vs it won't work because this happened to company x because of it.

>

> True, but at the same time, discussing the nitty-gritty of how an easy mode would function is a bit pointless if we caan't agree that they should exist even *in principle.* It's like redecorating the kitchen before you've even bought the house.

>

> >Should it just be as ohoni wants, a group encounter that you can solo with 0 threat of failure and bring peope along with you to reduce the time it takes to kill the boss?

>

> I will note, I think *zero* threat of failure is a bit further than I'd want. Better then the current option, obviously, but not ideal. I'm just saying, aim for the current content standards elsewhere in the game, if you go in and "just press one" then you should all die. If you aren't paying attention *at all* then you should die. But if everyone at least *attempts* to dodge most telegraphs as best they can, if everyone uses their full selection of attacks (even on non-meta builds and without ideal boon distribution" then they should pull through eventually, even if it takes a bit longer than normal. And if a few people completely drop the ball (figuratively or literally) then a few try-hards can still carry them along without too much trouble (I would be one of the latter, in that scenario).

>

> Attempts should fail, they should just fail at a *much* lower rate than you'd currently expect out of even somewhat experienced teams, and certainly much less often than you'd see in the sort of random pugs we're talking about here. I don't think it's helpful to exaggerate the position of either side.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > That actually goes both ways. Happy consumers are silen consumers you know the consumers that are in game and having fun. The fact that the unhappy players that constantly complain are at most 20%~more than what ever ppl are on the forums that do raid says alot.

>

> Yes, but many of those "happy players" would also be *happy* to do easy mode raiding, so you really can't assume where they'd fall one way or the other.

>

Possibly but they are having to much fun with the current system to come and ask for an easy mode so i thi k its unlikely.

 

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> >Overall HP of the Boss to be reduced by 35% and a 25% reduction in their personal damage effects (with Trash mobs getting a 50% reduction in their HP and Damage Effects)

>

> Hey STIHL, consider this alternative, don't reduce anyone's HP. I think that so long as damage is reduced to manageable levels, and "auto-fail" conditions like enrage timers and updraft "ammo" are removed, basically if the boss fights could theoretically last hours if necessary, then reducing the bosses HP wouldn't be necessary, and teams with lower DPS would just take longer to kill the boss than teams with meta DPS builds. I think this would be a good self-balancing mechanism, as easy mode could then be *designed* to take longer per kill than hard mode (but more reliably successful), which would reduce the "playing easy mode is faster and therefore a better use of time" arguments. If you *can* reliably kill on hard mode, you should. If you can't, easy mode is also an option.

>

> I don't entirely *agree* with your other options, but I would play that mode anyway, it's good enough.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > >The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > The fact is this:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > * I like how the game is now and you don't.

> > > > > > > * If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be *upset* that we are *happy* playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Please don't speculate how or why I would feel. You're way off. Not to mention I have repeatedly stated clearly, in more or less correct English, what I think. Again, it is irrelevant if you agree, or even if I am right. Since you don't have any real data to back your position, you cannot possibly expect anyone to take your own opinion as more important or valid than their own. You're only backing up your opinion with your opinion and somehow decide it has some greater value. Come on...

> > > >

> > > > Again, I don't claim that my opinion is more valid than anyone else's. It doesn't need to be more valid than anyone else's to justify developing an easy mode. You having the opinion that you would not like an easy mode does not counteract my opinion that there should be one, they are just two distinct viewpoints. If I say chocolate is good and you say chocolate is bad, the net result is not that chocolate is neutral, it's that some people like chocolate, and if chocolate were available, some people would eat it, and other people wouldn't, which is fine.

> > >

> > > this isn't about opinion, In fact:

> > >

> > > 1) the majority of players in GW2 do not play Raids in its current form, they do play 5 man instances in its current format - theres are obviously issues going on here a) elitism and b) the must have restrictive builds/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe... gameplay style.

> >

> > Thats the case for high tier fractals as well. And for dungeon groups back in the day. Nothin wrong with those.

> >

> > > 2) It has been proven in all the other big AAA mmorpg with raids that the majority will lap up normal mode raids and that the amount of players playing normal will vastly outstrip the niche playing the hardest difficulty.

> > >

> > Thats all well and dandy but thats an arguement that would matter if raids where the main thing to do in gw2 and they were the only thing developed.

> >

> > Thats not the case, couldnt be further from the truth, raids have the slowest release circle already of all pve content in the game so the "majority" enjoy content made for them more than anyone else.

> >

> > > Its the equivalent to members of a sports club that requires regular attendance and a high level of commitment objecting to a club being opened in the area with less exclusive rules and standards, for no other reason than they would feel less special in their club.

> > >

> > No, its the equivalent of 2 diff clubs being open in a town that serve diff purpose and attract diff member for diff reasons.

> >

> > > Acid test, if anet released a normal mode raid tomorrow what would the impact be?

> > >

> > > Existing raiding impacted - no.

> > > New content for anyone including the majority of the player base has new content - yes.

> > >

> >

> > But its not about the existing content, it never was. Its about future content and how its developement will be impacted by this. Developers and development resources dont grow on tree and by extention neither do raids.

>

> Ok, are Raiders currently happy with how long it takes to create raids and get them shipped?

>

 

An easy mode wont speed it up.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > >The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > The fact is this:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > * I like how the game is now and you don't.

> > > > > > > > * If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be *upset* that we are *happy* playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please don't speculate how or why I would feel. You're way off. Not to mention I have repeatedly stated clearly, in more or less correct English, what I think. Again, it is irrelevant if you agree, or even if I am right. Since you don't have any real data to back your position, you cannot possibly expect anyone to take your own opinion as more important or valid than their own. You're only backing up your opinion with your opinion and somehow decide it has some greater value. Come on...

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, I don't claim that my opinion is more valid than anyone else's. It doesn't need to be more valid than anyone else's to justify developing an easy mode. You having the opinion that you would not like an easy mode does not counteract my opinion that there should be one, they are just two distinct viewpoints. If I say chocolate is good and you say chocolate is bad, the net result is not that chocolate is neutral, it's that some people like chocolate, and if chocolate were available, some people would eat it, and other people wouldn't, which is fine.

> > > >

> > > > this isn't about opinion, In fact:

> > > >

> > > > 1) the majority of players in GW2 do not play Raids in its current form, they do play 5 man instances in its current format - theres are obviously issues going on here a) elitism and b) the must have restrictive builds/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe... gameplay style.

> > >

> > > Thats the case for high tier fractals as well. And for dungeon groups back in the day. Nothin wrong with those.

> > >

> > > > 2) It has been proven in all the other big AAA mmorpg with raids that the majority will lap up normal mode raids and that the amount of players playing normal will vastly outstrip the niche playing the hardest difficulty.

> > > >

> > > Thats all well and dandy but thats an arguement that would matter if raids where the main thing to do in gw2 and they were the only thing developed.

> > >

> > > Thats not the case, couldnt be further from the truth, raids have the slowest release circle already of all pve content in the game so the "majority" enjoy content made for them more than anyone else.

> > >

> > > > Its the equivalent to members of a sports club that requires regular attendance and a high level of commitment objecting to a club being opened in the area with less exclusive rules and standards, for no other reason than they would feel less special in their club.

> > > >

> > > No, its the equivalent of 2 diff clubs being open in a town that serve diff purpose and attract diff member for diff reasons.

> > >

> > > > Acid test, if anet released a normal mode raid tomorrow what would the impact be?

> > > >

> > > > Existing raiding impacted - no.

> > > > New content for anyone including the majority of the player base has new content - yes.

> > > >

> > >

> > > But its not about the existing content, it never was. Its about future content and how its developement will be impacted by this. Developers and development resources dont grow on tree and by extention neither do raids.

> >

> > Ok, are Raiders currently happy with how long it takes to create raids and get them shipped?

> >

>

> An easy mode wont speed it up.

 

No? maybe Feanor would like to pitch in here. How can Raids be completed faster?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > And this is why I wanted to steer the conversation towards how easy mode should work. Discussing whetber or not we should have 1 always ended up with: it'll work because x company did it vs it won't work because this happened to company x because of it.

> >

> > True, but at the same time, discussing the nitty-gritty of how an easy mode would function is a bit pointless if we caan't agree that they should exist even *in principle.* It's like redecorating the kitchen before you've even bought the house.

> >

> > >Should it just be as ohoni wants, a group encounter that you can solo with 0 threat of failure and bring peope along with you to reduce the time it takes to kill the boss?

> >

> > I will note, I think *zero* threat of failure is a bit further than I'd want. Better then the current option, obviously, but not ideal. I'm just saying, aim for the current content standards elsewhere in the game, if you go in and "just press one" then you should all die. If you aren't paying attention *at all* then you should die. But if everyone at least *attempts* to dodge most telegraphs as best they can, if everyone uses their full selection of attacks (even on non-meta builds and without ideal boon distribution" then they should pull through eventually, even if it takes a bit longer than normal. And if a few people completely drop the ball (figuratively or literally) then a few try-hards can still carry them along without too much trouble (I would be one of the latter, in that scenario).

> >

> > Attempts should fail, they should just fail at a *much* lower rate than you'd currently expect out of even somewhat experienced teams, and certainly much less often than you'd see in the sort of random pugs we're talking about here. I don't think it's helpful to exaggerate the position of either side.

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > That actually goes both ways. Happy consumers are silen consumers you know the consumers that are in game and having fun. The fact that the unhappy players that constantly complain are at most 20%~more than what ever ppl are on the forums that do raid says alot.

> >

> > Yes, but many of those "happy players" would also be *happy* to do easy mode raiding, so you really can't assume where they'd fall one way or the other.

> >

> Possibly but they are having to much fun with the current system to come and ask for an easy mode so i thi k its unlikely.

>

 

Their fiscal reports say otherwise.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > >The latest poll on these forums had a total of around 30%+ combined of ppl that raid alot and ppl that raid some times. It also had alot of ppl picking the option "something else" of which alot asked if training raids count and the op said no. Another easy 5-10%~ of ppl that do training runs which yes, is raidind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But again, a poll listed ON the raiding forum, so obviously one that would skew heavily toward players interested in that sort of thing, so if 30% indicated that they raid occasionally, that was the cap, not the baseline.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > Your goal is not a feature in a vacuum. You're disregarding all the effects you don't like. It doesn't mean they disappear. So yeah, you're trying to impose your opinion on others. Or rather, it's effects.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You're doing the same about the inclusion of raids in the first place, of course.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > The fact is this:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > * I like how the game is now and you don't.

> > > > > > > > > * If your proposed changes went through, you'd like how the game is and I won't.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's symmetrical, exactly the same when regarded as a personal opinion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No, it's not symmetrical. We don't like the game how it is now because it's lacking something we would like to enjoy playing. You would not like it if it changed because you would be *upset* that we are *happy* playing our new mode. You cannot frame that as a symmetrical argument. It's like if you had a burger, and another person did not, and he were given a burger, you claim that it would be a "symmetrical argument" to be as upset at him getting that burger as he was to not have one, even though in either case you'd still have your own burger.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please don't speculate how or why I would feel. You're way off. Not to mention I have repeatedly stated clearly, in more or less correct English, what I think. Again, it is irrelevant if you agree, or even if I am right. Since you don't have any real data to back your position, you cannot possibly expect anyone to take your own opinion as more important or valid than their own. You're only backing up your opinion with your opinion and somehow decide it has some greater value. Come on...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, I don't claim that my opinion is more valid than anyone else's. It doesn't need to be more valid than anyone else's to justify developing an easy mode. You having the opinion that you would not like an easy mode does not counteract my opinion that there should be one, they are just two distinct viewpoints. If I say chocolate is good and you say chocolate is bad, the net result is not that chocolate is neutral, it's that some people like chocolate, and if chocolate were available, some people would eat it, and other people wouldn't, which is fine.

> > > > >

> > > > > this isn't about opinion, In fact:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1) the majority of players in GW2 do not play Raids in its current form, they do play 5 man instances in its current format - theres are obviously issues going on here a) elitism and b) the must have restrictive builds/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe/try/wipe... gameplay style.

> > > >

> > > > Thats the case for high tier fractals as well. And for dungeon groups back in the day. Nothin wrong with those.

> > > >

> > > > > 2) It has been proven in all the other big AAA mmorpg with raids that the majority will lap up normal mode raids and that the amount of players playing normal will vastly outstrip the niche playing the hardest difficulty.

> > > > >

> > > > Thats all well and dandy but thats an arguement that would matter if raids where the main thing to do in gw2 and they were the only thing developed.

> > > >

> > > > Thats not the case, couldnt be further from the truth, raids have the slowest release circle already of all pve content in the game so the "majority" enjoy content made for them more than anyone else.

> > > >

> > > > > Its the equivalent to members of a sports club that requires regular attendance and a high level of commitment objecting to a club being opened in the area with less exclusive rules and standards, for no other reason than they would feel less special in their club.

> > > > >

> > > > No, its the equivalent of 2 diff clubs being open in a town that serve diff purpose and attract diff member for diff reasons.

> > > >

> > > > > Acid test, if anet released a normal mode raid tomorrow what would the impact be?

> > > > >

> > > > > Existing raiding impacted - no.

> > > > > New content for anyone including the majority of the player base has new content - yes.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But its not about the existing content, it never was. Its about future content and how its developement will be impacted by this. Developers and development resources dont grow on tree and by extention neither do raids.

> > >

> > > Ok, are Raiders currently happy with how long it takes to create raids and get them shipped?

> > >

> >

> > An easy mode wont speed it up.

>

> No? maybe Feanor would like to pitch in here. How can Raids be completed faster?

 

Aside from optimizing the production pipeline and nailing down the process with experience, there isn't much you can do to speed up content creation. It takes time. But certainly, diluting your efforts will only slow it down.

[STIHL.2489]

They could put in something like[ Neverwinter's ](https://www.arcgames.com/en/splash/ads/neverwinter/?hoff_transaction_id=1024f9688879e4236b3733af0a4a3b&hoff_vendor_id=1200&hoff_offer_id=84&hoff_campaign_id={campaign_id}&hoff_aff_sub1=1809897463&hoff_aff_sub2=21589_38138630530&hoff_aff_sub3=&hoff_aff_sub4=&hoff_aff_sub5=&gclid= " Neverwinter's ")Foundry.

[Feanor.2358]

User-generated content is a whole new can of worms. It's a ton of work to get it started, it requires lots of support and to top it off you have no control over the quality of the produced content. Not to mention "rule 38 of Internet" and the likes. Don't get me wrong, it helps if you're small enough. But a successful MMO of the size of GW2 just doesn't need to go through all the trouble for the uncertain positives.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> User-generated content is a whole new can of worms. It's a ton of work to get it started, it requires lots of support and to top it off you have no control over the quality of the produced content. Not to mention "rule 38 of Internet" and the likes. Don't get me wrong, it helps if you're small enough. But a successful MMO of the size of GW2 just doesn't need to go through all the trouble for the uncertain positives.

 

I must be missing something here but what does "A cat is fine too" have to do with user generated content ?

Considering that's pretty much all we get from the festivals team anyway....i fail to see a difference.

 

 

[CptAurellian.9537]

I find a definition of rule 38 of the internet which I definitely won't quote here, but I expected as much. Apart from these issues, I tend to agree with Feanor - I don't think all the troubles associated with user-generated content (what kind of QC do you implement? where do you draw a line? etc.) are worth it. Yes, there are mods out there that blow most AAA games out of the water, but they're incredibly rare. Most of the stuff out there is, as Sturgeon's law states, trash. That works for SP and normal MP games, but not for a MMO.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> I find a definition of rule 38 of the internet which I definitely won't quote here, but I expected as much. Apart from these issues, I tend to agree with Feanor - I don't think all the troubles associated with user-generated content (what kind of QC do you implement? where do you draw a line? etc.) are worth it. Yes, there are mods out there that blow most AAA games out of the water, but they're incredibly rare. Most of the stuff out there is, as Sturgeon's law states, trash. That works for SP and normal MP games, but not for a MMO.

 

I'm guessing the rule was supposed to be 34 whose definition is more questionable.

Either way, it's just funny when someone says rule 38 in the context of GW2, because lets face it our "Festival rewards" for the better part of 3 years have been cats.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > I find a definition of rule 38 of the internet which I definitely won't quote here, but I expected as much. Apart from these issues, I tend to agree with Feanor - I don't think all the troubles associated with user-generated content (what kind of QC do you implement? where do you draw a line? etc.) are worth it. Yes, there are mods out there that blow most AAA games out of the water, but they're incredibly rare. Most of the stuff out there is, as Sturgeon's law states, trash. That works for SP and normal MP games, but not for a MMO.

>

> I'm guessing the rule was supposed to be 34 whose definition is more questionable.

> Either way, it's just funny when someone says rule 38 in the context of GW2, because lets face it our "Festival rewards" for the better part of 3 years have been cats.

>

 

Yeah, cat's were not what I meant. I always forget the numbers, so I usually go to urban dictionary to look it up. It's about the TTP metric.

[Curennos.9307]

It seems foolish to create content aimed at a very small percentage of a game's population. To me, it feels like they're wasting their time if they don't implement difficulty modes for raids. Scale the rewards like they do for 1-100 fractals/CMs and call it a day.

 

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > I find a definition of rule 38 of the internet which I definitely won't quote here, but I expected as much. Apart from these issues, I tend to agree with Feanor - I don't think all the troubles associated with user-generated content (what kind of QC do you implement? where do you draw a line? etc.) are worth it. Yes, there are mods out there that blow most AAA games out of the water, but they're incredibly rare. Most of the stuff out there is, as Sturgeon's law states, trash. That works for SP and normal MP games, but not for a MMO.

> >

> > I'm guessing the rule was supposed to be 34 whose definition is more questionable.

> > Either way, it's just funny when someone says rule 38 in the context of GW2, because lets face it our "Festival rewards" for the better part of 3 years have been cats.

> >

>

> Yeah, cat's were not what I meant. I always forget the numbers, so I usually go to urban dictionary to look it up. It's about the TTP metric.

That's Sturgeon's Law. Rule 34 is about... something else. Although it also might be appropriate to bring up in context of user-created content.

 

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > > I find a definition of rule 38 of the internet which I definitely won't quote here, but I expected as much. Apart from these issues, I tend to agree with Feanor - I don't think all the troubles associated with user-generated content (what kind of QC do you implement? where do you draw a line? etc.) are worth it. Yes, there are mods out there that blow most AAA games out of the water, but they're incredibly rare. Most of the stuff out there is, as Sturgeon's law states, trash. That works for SP and normal MP games, but not for a MMO.

> > >

> > > I'm guessing the rule was supposed to be 34 whose definition is more questionable.

> > > Either way, it's just funny when someone says rule 38 in the context of GW2, because lets face it our "Festival rewards" for the better part of 3 years have been cats.

> > >

> >

> > Yeah, cat's were not what I meant. I always forget the numbers, so I usually go to urban dictionary to look it up. It's about the TTP metric.

> That's Sturgeon's Law. Rule 34 is about... something else. Although it also might be appropriate to bring up in context of user-created content.

>

 

if it exists, there's an image of an inappropriate nature of it somewhere in the internet

-internet rule 34

[STIHL.2489]

Well, Cryptic, in a open interview about their foundry, explained that Players produce Professional Quality Dungeons at around the same pace as Developers Can, with the only catch to UGC being that there are a lot of lower quality content also being made at the same time. Otherwise, once set up, a Foundry like system can feed the game new content to play constantly.

 

And in a game like GW2 where style is a huge deal, I would imagine they have a large portion of creative people playing this game. My guild often makes JP in their guild hall every event, because they like that stuff... and they think its funny when half of us fall to our deaths.

[zealex.9410]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

 

Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > > I find a definition of rule 38 of the internet which I definitely won't quote here, but I expected as much. Apart from these issues, I tend to agree with Feanor - I don't think all the troubles associated with user-generated content (what kind of QC do you implement? where do you draw a line? etc.) are worth it. Yes, there are mods out there that blow most AAA games out of the water, but they're incredibly rare. Most of the stuff out there is, as Sturgeon's law states, trash. That works for SP and normal MP games, but not for a MMO.

> > >

> > > I'm guessing the rule was supposed to be 34 whose definition is more questionable.

> > > Either way, it's just funny when someone says rule 38 in the context of GW2, because lets face it our "Festival rewards" for the better part of 3 years have been cats.

> > >

> >

> > Yeah, cat's were not what I meant. I always forget the numbers, so I usually go to urban dictionary to look it up. It's about the TTP metric.

> That's Sturgeon's Law. Rule 34 is about... something else. Although it also might be appropriate to bring up in context of user-created content.

>

 

No, I didn't mean the quality I meant exactly the "something else". TTP - "Time To Penis". The time from the moment user generated content feature goes online and the moment somebody finishes drawing a penis with it.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

>

> Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

 

yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.