Is there a reason for the increasing escalation of mechanics and difficulty of fractals?

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > 100% agree with this as a predominantly T1 player (I occasionally treat myself to a t2..woo!). I would personally say Shattered Observatory did not meet this criteria at all and was too overwhelming at t1 vs other fractals.

> It was rebalanced later on to make that problem less visible, but still t3 SO is on a difficulty level that would easily fit within t4 difficulty tier (and not even at the bottom of it).

>

>

 

Solid ocean is easily soloed on all levels if you know how to dodge the jade beam. This is the worst example you could bring up. Everyone knows Solid Ocean is one of the main fractals that needs a rework.

 

All teirs of it are basically the same.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > 100% agree with this as a predominantly T1 player (I occasionally treat myself to a t2..woo!). I would personally say Shattered Observatory did not meet this criteria at all and was too overwhelming at t1 vs other fractals.

> > It was rebalanced later on to make that problem less visible, but still t3 SO is on a difficulty level that would easily fit within t4 difficulty tier (and not even at the bottom of it).

> >

> >

>

> Solid ocean is easily soloed on all levels if you know how to dodge the jade beam. This is the worst example you could bring up. Everyone knows Solid Ocean is one of the main fractals that needs a rework.

>

> All teirs of it are basically the same.

 

SO being Shattered Observatory not Solid Ocean in our context

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > > 100% agree with this as a predominantly T1 player (I occasionally treat myself to a t2..woo!). I would personally say Shattered Observatory did not meet this criteria at all and was too overwhelming at t1 vs other fractals.

> > > It was rebalanced later on to make that problem less visible, but still t3 SO is on a difficulty level that would easily fit within t4 difficulty tier (and not even at the bottom of it).

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Solid ocean is easily soloed on all levels if you know how to dodge the jade beam. This is the worst example you could bring up. Everyone knows Solid Ocean is one of the main fractals that needs a rework.

> >

> > All teirs of it are basically the same.

>

> SO being Shattered Observatory not Solid Ocean in our context

 

Ah my bad. Carry on then.

[Cyninja.2954]

Solid Ocean is a perfect example though of a fractal which simply does not fit any longer.

 

Back then Solid Ocean was introduced, it was the first boss fractal (back then every even fractal number would get an extra boss fractal) and was very soon changed to be an agony check. Meaning you either had the agony to survive, or you died. Difficulty was never an issue for this fractal, it was a gating mechanism which was to prevent people from reaching to high fractal levels (because you eventually couldn't proceed further due to lack of agony resistance, after all the bugs and exploits around the agony mechanic were fixed).

 

Now it's nothing more but free loot hardly worth mentioning. Sorry but this is not challenging T4 content.

[reikken.4961]

taking defensive support builds makes things a lot easier

blood scourge, auramancer, etc

[Zunki.3916]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> There's a lot of bickering and people slinging things as facts that aren't, so let me clarify something. Internally we want T2 fractals to be similar to core tyria dungeons in difficulty. T4 fractals should be the hardest 5 man PvE content in the game other than CMs, but notably easier than raids. CMs should be very close to raid difficulty, but not quite there (this is tough to accomplish). Saying T4 Amala is as hard as a raid is simply not true.

 

Hey Ben, I think you guys nailed it pretty well. I mean, I love how there are different style fracs, easier ones and harder ones, raid-lite ones and dungeon ones. Make variaty, don't be afraid to make something like SO again, but also provide other stuff too.

 

Fractals msut be different, that's the whole Thing about them. That's great and noone HAS to do any fractal anyway. If you don't like one specific, screw it and skip it that day.

[Payne.1250]

"If you don't like one specific, screw it and skip it that day." this is absolutely true, but it's the third in a row being like this, it seems they don't know how to do something else, at least some people are asking for something else, a kind of rotation, but actually it's like talking to a wall since 9 months

[miku.3025]

well i manage a guild of around 350 players sadly many has already quit hence inactive in the guild (we do not kick people unless we needed to free up space). we do have around 30-40 players online during my playtime. perhaps only around 10 that does t4 daily and maybe 5 that does 100cm not on daily basis. I reckon it is the reward and the trouble that are not worth the trouble imo. I myself and my husband are mature players but we play all the content in the games. We have tried to encourage guildies to join us so we do not have to pug our t4 but sadly it seems too hard and too much of the trouble. I do not know the solution for this tbh :P

imo t4 isn't hard at all. but for some people it is. perhaps pump up the reward, it might encourage more people to try harder. i don't know if that will help

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"miku.3025" said:

> well i manage a guild of around 350 players sadly many has already quit hence inactive in the guild (we do not kick people unless we needed to free up space). we do have around 30-40 players online during my playtime. perhaps only around 10 that does t4 daily and maybe 5 that does 100cm not on daily basis. I reckon it is the reward and the trouble that are not worth the trouble imo. I myself and my husband are mature players but we play all the content in the games. We have tried to encourage guildies to join us so we do not have to pug our t4 but sadly it seems too hard and too much of the trouble. I do not know the solution for this tbh :P

> imo t4 isn't hard at all. but for some people it is. perhaps pump up the reward, it might encourage more people to try harder. i don't know if that will help

 

Constant rush for "challenging" content destroyed my 3 year old guild aswell. Anet shifted from no-risk content to annoying aoe spam content with 0 balance between content type delivery and focusing on competing between teams who creates more obnoxious mechanics to be praised on teatime it seems.

[miku.3025]

i don't think it was due to too much challenging content that cause my guildies to stop playing. i think it is from something else :D I was trying to give a clearer picture of my guild condition with numbers :P note tht, our guild isn't active like many other guilds that constantly engage activities for guildies. we sort of have a good handful of mature players and players that likes to solo the content. back in the days even before fractal we does a lot of dungeon runs and so on. things changed since raid.

i am not saying the current fractal is bad because it isnt and i do them on daily basis. just getting others from the guild to join us is difficult and they aren't interested due to too much of a trouble for them i suppose. and the agony resistance makes it hard for us to take any newbie with us because they cant really enjoy t4 with us without proper gearing and stuff.

[Sykper.6583]

Part of that major issue I believe Miku is the lack of support for Guild Missions.

 

That's probably one of the biggest thing hurting the game right now is the continued support for Guild Missions, and while Guild Halls addressed one thing, I believe the pendulum should swing back to yet another rework / content boost to guild content in the game, and rewards as well.

[Zypp.7921]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> There's a lot of bickering and people slinging things as facts that aren't, so let me clarify something. Internally we want T2 fractals to be similar to core tyria dungeons in difficulty. T4 fractals should be the hardest 5 man PvE content in the game other than CMs, but notably easier than raids. CMs should be very close to raid difficulty, but not quite there (this is tough to accomplish). Saying T4 Amala is as hard as a raid is simply not true.

 

I did my first raid this week, just Gorseval. As a DPS class it was so easy to me: the boss has a very predictable pattern. Just read up on a guide and follow the steps. The difficulty of the raid lies in getting a group with a good composition together, assigning roles and attempting the fight until nobody makes any serious mistakes that mess up that attempt. The difficulty in a lot of t4 fractal lies in dancing around aoe's being spammed at me that will take over 50% of my life if I don't respond instantly, while also trying to avoid clumsy teammates trying to kill me with social awkwardnes.

 

They are different types of difficulty and will be experienced differently by different players. To me the easiest (and only) raid I did was far easier than the hardest fractals (among which the new twilight oasis fractal).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"miku.3025" said:

> > well i manage a guild of around 350 players sadly many has already quit hence inactive in the guild (we do not kick people unless we needed to free up space). we do have around 30-40 players online during my playtime. perhaps only around 10 that does t4 daily and maybe 5 that does 100cm not on daily basis. I reckon it is the reward and the trouble that are not worth the trouble imo. I myself and my husband are mature players but we play all the content in the games. We have tried to encourage guildies to join us so we do not have to pug our t4 but sadly it seems too hard and too much of the trouble. I do not know the solution for this tbh :P

> > imo t4 isn't hard at all. but for some people it is. perhaps pump up the reward, it might encourage more people to try harder. i don't know if that will help

>

> Constant rush for "challenging" content destroyed my 3 year old guild aswell. Anet shifted from no-risk content to annoying aoe spam content with 0 balance between content type delivery and focusing on competing between teams who creates more obnoxious mechanics to be praised on teatime it seems.

 

And the abundance of no-risk content paired with a lack of challenging one destroyed mine a while ago. Like it or not, this game needs challenging content and ANet are doing a really good job providing it.

[Bugabuga.9721]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> Its ok for difficulty to vary quite a bit between different fractals, but T1 should always be super easy, and difficulty should always escalate per tier.

 

Okay. But 16's final battle is quite hectic and I wouldn't call it "super easy" for people who didn't do this type of content before. I mean it is easy for someone who already played T4s before, but to unsuspecting player Oasis is going to be a big jump in difficulty. And rewards are now quite bad given how long it takes unprepared group to finish all individual protectors and then kill final boss (we're basically back to 30 minutes for one fractal, get two greens and blue. er... two locked matrices that require a key to unlock).

 

Should those who just start fractals have some hope that "even more hectic/difficult version of this will actually give you something nice"?

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"Bugabuga.9721" said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > Its ok for difficulty to vary quite a bit between different fractals, but T1 should always be super easy, and difficulty should always escalate per tier.

>

> Okay. But 16's final battle is quite hectic and I wouldn't call it "super easy" for people who didn't do this type of content before. I mean it is easy for someone who already played T4s before, but to unsuspecting player Oasis is going to be a big jump in difficulty. And rewards are now quite bad given how long it takes unprepared group to finish all individual protectors and then kill final boss (we're basically back to 30 minutes for one fractal, get two greens and blue. er... two locked matrices that require a key to unlock).

>

> Should those who just start fractals have some hope that "even more hectic/difficult version of this will actually give you something nice"?

 

I dont know. I went to the fractal 16 with 4 newbies who had ever only done t1 fractals. 2 of them had never done any fractals. We did Amala without any deaths.

[Genesis.5169]

As a person who pugs cms everyday. Most of this thread is BS, if you wipe once or twice or even 10times that's fine, pugs are clearing the content don't speak for other people its YOUR skill thats underwhelming FotM is fine.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> As a person who pugs cms everyday. Most of this thread is BS, if you wipe once or twice or even 10times that's fine, pugs are clearing the content don't speak for other people its YOUR skill thats underwhelming FotM is fine.

 

Anecdotal evidence works for both sides :)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > As a person who pugs cms everyday. Most of this thread is BS, if you wipe once or twice or even 10times that's fine, pugs are clearing the content don't speak for other people its YOUR skill thats underwhelming FotM is fine.

>

> Anecdotal evidence works for both sides :)

 

ANet's data is anecdotal? According to them, plenty of people succeed every day. Surely you don't think that all of them are in static/guild groups.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > As a person who pugs cms everyday. Most of this thread is BS, if you wipe once or twice or even 10times that's fine, pugs are clearing the content don't speak for other people its YOUR skill thats underwhelming FotM is fine.

> >

> > Anecdotal evidence works for both sides :)

>

> ANet's data is anecdotal? According to them, plenty of people succeed every day. Surely you don't think that all of them are in static/guild groups.

 

They never said how many fail in comparison to succesful runs or even how many people try playing fractals :)

 

What they said is incomplete and irrelevant without true numbers :)

 

Also my response was an answer to quoted poster who provides anecdotal evidence. A small detail you chose to ignore :)

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Sooloo.1364" said:

> Being in a guild of more mature folks im finding it increasingly difficult to entice anyone to even do them anymore.

> I remember it started with Swampland and even then people found it way too hard, some pugs still do. Then Chaos, which is great but some find way too hard.

> But these latest additions are impossible for a lot of people, T4 Observatory and this new Oasis Fractal. Too fast, too much AOE, too much everything.

> Fractals used to be a fun distraction when people were bored, I could always rally a group. Nobody wants to do these though, it's just too much work.

> And pls dont even suggest doing them at lower tiers, if you can't handle T4 then you shouldn't even be in there... and pugs, I dont even wanna try that again.

> Im curious though, if my guild isnt doing them regularly anymore because of this, how many others feel the same?

 

I've noticed this sift as well as the newer and revised fractals are much longer and more tedious and full of spam effects then previous ones, As best I can surmise, this is due to the fact that development team wants to reform GW2's PvE content into a Raid focused End Game, as such, Fractals are becoming more aligned to be Mini-raid, or Raid-Prep content.

 

And as far as i can tell from what the Devs have said directly on this matter, that seems to where they want to go.. so, either hold on for the ride.. or get ready to get out.

[Talindra.4958]

well to be honest.. my husband and me, both of us likes challenging content - well we basically play everything. i think it will be nicer if we can involve people of all background, people who also not so hardcore into the group run.. i feel that those players are missing out and many distant themselves from the challenging content not because they didn't want to play, they just couldn't .. its just too hard for them to catch up to the speed - maybe due to not able to play hardcore or perhaps other reasons.. I would love to be able to take anyone, anyone to t4 at least.. if not 100cm, but it is impossible with the way the game is set up, we don't mind 3 men t4 but people will not be able to enjoy the run with us without having proper gearing at least the required AR and theres soo much mechanics involve in all the recent updates... There is no reason for us to do low level fractal again on daily basis because it does not benefit us at all. The reason we are doing t4 is the daily reward and liquid gold and the reason I am doing 100cm is the infusion drop - ofc i never get them...

Back in the good old days, we can take anyone.. absolutely anyone into dungeon and have a full run with them.. it was so much fun during that time.. so so much fun, everyone basically from all background can enjoy it. i do CMs + t4 if not daily.. quite frequently and wing 1-4 under approx. 2 hours full clear once a week. I see huge separation between players of different play style. if only we can still party up with players that is not hardcore, if we can mix players of different play skill and still be able to get daily content done comfortably without stress for them and for us.. similar to dungeon run it will be very nice.. since there is no more update on dungeon and with current small group content update, we can not involve anyone we wish not unless they are geared properly (and understand how to counter game mechanic). what if, more rewards is added into less challenging content for daily, so people of all background will do them? i dont know, I'd love to play with anyone, but with busy daily life, there is no good reason for me to do low level fractals and i don't see myself repeating dungeon again after so many hundred million runs years ago :P new dungeon will be nice....... highly welcome

[Linken.6345]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Sooloo.1364" said:

> > Being in a guild of more mature folks im finding it increasingly difficult to entice anyone to even do them anymore.

> > I remember it started with Swampland and even then people found it way too hard, some pugs still do. Then Chaos, which is great but some find way too hard.

> > But these latest additions are impossible for a lot of people, T4 Observatory and this new Oasis Fractal. Too fast, too much AOE, too much everything.

> > Fractals used to be a fun distraction when people were bored, I could always rally a group. Nobody wants to do these though, it's just too much work.

> > And pls dont even suggest doing them at lower tiers, if you can't handle T4 then you shouldn't even be in there... and pugs, I dont even wanna try that again.

> > Im curious though, if my guild isnt doing them regularly anymore because of this, how many others feel the same?

>

> I've noticed this sift as well as the newer and revised fractals are much longer and more tedious and full of spam effects then previous ones, As best I can surmise, this is due to the fact that development team wants to reform GW2's PvE content into a Raid focused End Game, as such, Fractals are becoming more aligned to be Mini-raid, or Raid-Prep content.

>

> And as far as i can tell from what the Devs have said directly on this matter, that seems to where they want to go.. so, either hold on for the ride.. or get ready to get out.

 

Becouse people can still not do any tier except t4?

Its t4 or get ready to get out it seems.

[JVJD.4912]

I got burnt out farming the fractal backpiece back in vanilla, i do fractals for the new story content they add and be on my way

Raids are too much of a time investment and commitment for me to bother

I play when and how i want, leave when i want >:). Riad are play what is needed not what you want...gg

 

I am seriously not surprised if there are many who feel the same way

[Shiyo.3578]

I do not like the direction fractals are going. This games player base is extremely casual and not used to difficult content. Fractals are meant to be a daily thing. Making fractals not only MUCH more difficult but also making them all take MUCH longer just makes them incredibly annoying - something that a DAILY CHORE should not be.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> I do not like the direction fractals are going. This games player base is extremely casual and not used to difficult content. Fractals are meant to be a daily thing. Making fractals not only MUCH more difficult but also making them all take MUCH longer just makes them incredibly annoying - something that a DAILY CHORE should not be.

 

Be that as it may.. this is the way Anet wants Fractals to go.