The real problem with the raiding and fractal community.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.

 

Umm, W3 and especially Xera?

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"meeflak.9714" said:

> > > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > > > Edit: All of these people claim to be of like mind. Why aren't they forming squads with each other? It's baffling to me.

> > > > Get a 10 people that don't like raids, and you will get a group of people that, surprise surprise, _still_ don't like raids.

> > > > Who would have thought?

> > > >

> > > > Hint: getting all the complaining people together still changes absolutely nothing about raids, so i have no idea why you might think it would help with anything (except perhaps making the complains more visible).

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > At least it visualizes how bloated the forum's are, with non Constructive complaints and useless criticism

> >

> > Criticism you don't agree with isn't useless.s At least some of the threads talk about an easier mode so people can see the STORIES. Stories that touch the main story line should have never been locked behind raids. They should have done it more like Fractals, with stuff that wasn't linking seasons to expansions. This is a valid complaint. I don't like raids, I do like stories. And I'm pretty sure many raiders care less about story than mechanics. This is just a pretty bad oversight on Anet's part.

>

> On the same page with the requests for a Raid easy mode, we see lots of complaining about the new Fractals, a lot of them are the same people too. The SAME posters asking for an easier mode, refuse to run the lower tiers of Fractals. Making any argument for an easy mode very weak at the very least.

 

I don't know how this works together ? I know that some people here say if you can't run it run it a tier level below.

It obvious we did it and such comments are stupid as hell and logically don't getting an answer.

[Alinora Targew.1679]

I don't post on the forums that much, but after doing t4 fotm last night with friends i had to see what people are thinking.

 

The real problem with the raiding and fractal is:

 

Timers and forced builds. dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

 

For raids - if you want to do it you must have this gear, stand there and do that (or the Pro Raiders will kick you). There are no skills or challenges involved when you just need to do a scriped-bot's job. in raids you have no veriaty or options to do otherwise becuse of timers.

 

For fotm - adding more AOE's and trash mobs doesn't make it harder just more annoing and time consuming.

 

that's all.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

> I don't post on the forums that much, but after doing t4 fotm last night with friends i had to see what people are thinking.

>

> The real problem with the raiding and fractal is:

>

> Timers and forced builds. dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

>

> For raids - if you want to do it you must have this gear, stand there and do that (or the Pro Raiders will kick you). There are no skills or challenges involved when you just need to do a scriped-bot's job. in raids you have no veriaty or options to do otherwise becuse of timers.

>

> For fotm - adding more AOE's and trash mobs doesn't make it harder just more annoing and time consuming.

>

> that's all.

 

Yeah, meta builds are a must...

 

- 10 tempest VG kill

- 10 Scourge VG kill

- 10 reaper VG kill

 

Not to mention the ton of off meta builds run by guilds who are less meta oppressive (also found on youtube). Or the ton of low man runs with 5-6 people finishing bosses.

 

As far as fractals:

 

- 100 CM skorvald solo

- 99 CM solo 1st boss

 

Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

[Turin.6921]

> @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.

>

> Umm, W3 and especially Xera?

 

No it did not...W3 is the definition of a side story. The point of the story was that Lazarus is alive (or so we thought). Shown in the very 1st LS episode. Knowing that is was Xera that tried to revive him changes nothing to the main story and has absolutely no meaning for it. At best it was a teaser for LS with that chamber showed at eh end after killing Xera. You can remove W3 story completely and nothing would have changed for the main story at all. What difference does it make for players that do not care about raids. They know from the story that the white mantle tried to revive Lazarus. Whether their leader at the time was Xera or Joe changes nothing for them.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.

> >

> > Umm, W3 and especially Xera?

>

> No it did not...W3 is the definition of a side story. The point of the story was that Lazarus is alive (or so we thought). Shown in the very 1st LS episode. Knowing that is was Xera that tried to revive him changes nothing to the main story and has absolutely no meaning for it. At best it was a teaser for LS with that chamber showed at eh end after killing Xera. You can remove W3 story completely and nothing would have changed for the main story at all. What difference does it make for players that do not care about raids. They know from the story that the white mantle tried to revive Lazarus. Whether their leader at the time was Xera or Joe changes nothing for them.

 

And even if it was extremely important, Arena Net took the care of having an NPC recap the Wing 1-3 Story beats for us with a cinematic cutscene and everything. There is a link between the first 3 wings (and arguably the 4th) and Living world, but nothing is there preventing you from joining a raid guild and tagging along, or PUGing, watching it on youtube, or get the info from the in-game sources that exist, or even just read the wiki. There's a dozen of ways to fill in that gap with or without raids. People complain because they don't want to work for the information.

This is like if people would skip Dungeons (which a lot did) at launch, because they were harder and then complained that they didn't know why is Destiny's Edge all together now.

Weirdly enough, there wasn't much brouhaha about it. But hating on Raids has been fashionable since their release, so that's why it took.

[Alinora Targew.1679]

 

> Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

 

Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

>

> > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

>

> Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

>

 

The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > I must have missed that raids affect the main story in any way. None of the wings so far is relevant or necessary for understanding the main story (be it expansions or living story). I first set foot into a raid long after LS season 3 started (must have been around release of episode 4) and never felt that some important part of the story was missing. Of course, raids do have something of a story, since a raid in a vacuum, devoid of any story, would just plain be boring.

>

> Umm, W3 and especially Xera?

Related != relevant. Turin explained the rest nicely.

[Alinora Targew.1679]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

> >

> > > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

> >

> > Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

> >

>

> The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

 

All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.

I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> Raids affect the main game story. They fill in the gap between Living Story and expansions, and yet Anet knows that only a small minority of the playerbase raids. Should I pay other players 250 gold to see story? Are you suggestion more casual players are interested in story or more raiders. How about number of players that raid or number of players that care about story.

>

 

Can you understand the story of Season 3 without ever touching any Raid? Yes.

Does the story of Season 3 make perfect sense without ever touching any Raid? Yes.

Raids do not fill any gap between expansions, in the first Raid wings 1 and 2 were pretty much an attempt to save a Pact Squad gone missing.

The Second Raid was standalone and nothing that happened there affected the story.

The Third Raid is also standalone and doesn't progress the main story of the world.

 

And that leaves us with wing 3 of the first Raid, and specifically the reveal of the chamber. Given how:

1) No NPC acknowledges that anything happened in the Raid

2) The commander doesn't seem to care to mention what happened in the Raid

3) Almorra Soulkeeper doesn't seem to even know that one of her squads was missing

4) Our characters being surprised when they see Lazarus... really a 5-year old would expect him to appear at any moment after seeing the chamber

 

We can pretty much say that even that part of the "story" didn't affect the plot of the game the least bit. From the game's standpoint it's as if it never happened.

Not to mention the rather huge plot hole, when was Balthazar put inside the stasis chamber again?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

> > >

> > > > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

> > >

> > > Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

> > >

> >

> > The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

>

> All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.

> I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

 

I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

 

As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

 

Duo VG kill done in over 1 hour (timer on VG is 8 minutes so you can imagine it expired very early)

[Alinora Targew.1679]

 

> > > > > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

> > > >

> > >

> > > The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

> >

> > All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.

> > I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

>

> I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

>

> As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

 

LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.

no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

 

and back to the my first post.

 

Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

>

> > > > > > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

> > >

> > > All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.

> > > I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

> >

> > I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

> >

> > As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

>

> LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.

> no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

>

> and back to the my first post.

>

> Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

>

>

 

Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

 

Fact is, **M**ost **E**fficient **T**actic **A**vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

 

Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

 

Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

 

Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

[Rennie.6750]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

> >

> > > > > > > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

> > > >

> > > > All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.

> > > > I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

> > >

> > > I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

> > >

> > > As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

> >

> > LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.

> > no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

> >

> > and back to the my first post.

> >

> > Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

> >

> >

>

> Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

>

> Fact is, **M**ost **E**fficient **T**actic **A**vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

>

> Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

>

> Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

>

> Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

 

Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

 

There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

 

Edit: meta stands for metagame.

[Bish.8627]

> @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > @"Bish.8627" said:

> > I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

> >

> > Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

>

> Yeah, I understand the 10 months of only open world and story releases as well as an expansion solely focused on open world means they focus too much on raids. Sound logic

 

Locking legendaries behind the most unpopular game mode in the game is sound logic too.

 

Not to mention WvW has a real lack of focus and it has a far far bigger player base, meaning more money comes in from WvW than Raids or fractals.

[Chris McSwag.4683]

> @"Bish.8627" said:

> > @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > > @"Bish.8627" said:

> > > I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

> > >

> > > Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

> >

> > Yeah, I understand the 10 months of only open world and story releases as well as an expansion solely focused on open world means they focus too much on raids. Sound logic

>

> Locking legendaries behind the most unpopular game mode in the game is sound logic too.

>

> Not to mention WvW has a real lack of focus and it has a far far bigger player base, meaning more money comes in from WvW than Raids or fractals.

 

There are legendaries earnable in different game modes, thats just how it is.

Weapons: Cant be made without open world, and a tiny bit of wvw

Backpack: Fractals, PvP, WvW

Armor: Raids, PvP, WvW

Trinket: Open world only

Ring: Raids?(not available yet and we dont know of future plans)

 

Lots of people play more than one game mode, and even if they only played one: correlation does not mean causality. Even IF the wvw population is greater than fractals and raids(id be surprised if it is, lots do fractals), it doesnt mean that the players spend more time or money in the game. I could argue that the "hardcore" community is small, but so invested in the game that they are more willing to spend on it. I obviously can't back this up, but neither can you as this information is not available.

 

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > @"Bish.8627" said:

> > > @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > > > @"Bish.8627" said:

> > > > I say this in every raid related thread. Fractals and raids are a small portion of the player based. PVE Open largest, followed by WvW and PvP just a little more than raids.

> > > >

> > > > Bring focus back to the main game modes please Anet?

> > >

> > > Yeah, I understand the 10 months of only open world and story releases as well as an expansion solely focused on open world means they focus too much on raids. Sound logic

> >

> > Locking legendaries behind the most unpopular game mode in the game is sound logic too.

> >

> > Not to mention WvW has a real lack of focus and it has a far far bigger player base, meaning more money comes in from WvW than Raids or fractals.

>

> There are legendaries earnable in different game modes, thats just how it is.

> Weapons: Cant be made without open world, and a tiny bit of wvw

> Backpack: Fractals, PvP, WvW

> Armor: Raids, PvP, WvW

> Trinket: Open world only

> Ring: Raids?(not available yet and we dont know of future plans)

>

> Lots of people play more than one game mode, and even if they only played one: correlation does not mean causality. Even IF the wvw population is greater than fractals and raids(id be surprised if it is, lots do fractals), it doesnt mean that the players spend more time or money in the game. I could argue that the "hardcore" community is small, but so invested in the game that they are more willing to spend on it. I obviously can't back this up, but neither can you as this information is not available.

>

>

 

Let's face it. Originally legendary armor was a bait for people to try raiding. Now you can craft in via pvp and wvw and I assume soon we will see open world legendary armor. And skin is irrelevant, it's ugly, flawed (as proved by Brazil) and was promised to be updated almost half a year ago with no success :)

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Rennie.6750" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

> > > > >

> > > > > All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.

> > > > > I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

> > > >

> > > > I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

> > > >

> > > > As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

> > >

> > > LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.

> > > no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

> > >

> > > and back to the my first post.

> > >

> > > Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

> >

> > Fact is, **M**ost **E**fficient **T**actic **A**vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

> >

> > Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

> >

> > Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

> >

> > Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

>

> Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

>

> There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

>

> Edit: meta stands for metagame.

 

and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

 

How much more proof do you need besides people:

 

- going in with non meta setups

- clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers

- clearing the content with vastly inferior gear

- ignoring timers

 

See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

 

Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

[Yumiko Ishida.3769]

My main issue with all of this is that I don't like being bossed around, I don't even like following a build off a site, except when its pvp and wvw, as I just want to use a charter and get going and play. For all PvE purposes, whether it be open world or A fractal, I build my own builds and usually know enough about a class (and if I don't, I read what everything does and make a well educated decision as to what to do with said class) to have it synergy well with no loose ends. I Loathe and detest when someone says its not the best build or what is on a site, and doesn't include me when I been playing both GW 1 and 2 for longer than most probably have on the whole of this site and community and should know by now how to do something. I rather be allowed to run what i want and do my best and if it doesn't work i go back to my skills and look at what can work instead. I'm my own person not a machine or cog, in the gander scheme of things, the raids in this case to be used for a means to an end.

 

What a lot here tend to forget is we are people not things and we have all feeling needs wants, etc. and Mutual respect goes along way.

What has to happen is for people to "put up and shut up" and take people willing to do raids but are not willing to be told what to do besides general orders, "Go here, Avoid that! Look out there!". Cut the crap about being perfect and having the best builds, and as long as it is effective, and isn't entirely broken, you will get through if you respect one another and work together!

 

I actually teach new players fractals on the lower tiers I never stress about gear or builds, I expect people to have half a brain and know a basic understanding of mechanics and the game like moving, using consumables and combo fields, dodging and the like. I don't yell at my party mates, I treat them like human beings not dogs. If you are 80 and going into this content you should have a basic grasp of the game by now.

 

I know myself, that, my reaction times are not good, and I'm quite terrible at using a full keyboard to play (I may just move everything to the left side eventually for ease of use). I normally only use my mouse to move and click the skills one at a time. Yet I have such good understand of the game that I make up for this.

 

In the end, all I'm saying is to stop being selfish and put others first before you especially in raids take the new players, they may surprise you. Don't impose such high ridiculous standards all the time, giving a little to others will go a long way and may even make you feel better.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Yumiko Ishida.3769" said:

> My main issue with all of this is that I don't like being bossed around, I don't even like following a build off a site, except when its pvp and wvw, as I just want to use a charter and get going and play. For all PvE purposes, whether it be open world or A fractal, I build my own builds and usually know enough about a class (and if I don't, I read what everything does and make a well educated decision as to what to do with said class) to have it synergy well with no loose ends. I Loathe and detest when someone says its not the best build or what is on a site, and doesn't include me when I been playing both GW 1 and 2 for longer than most probably have on the whole of this site and community and should know by now how to do something. I rather be allowed to run what i want and do my best and if it doesn't work i go back to my skills and look at what can work instead. I'm my own person not a machine or cog, in the gander scheme of things, the raids in this case to be used for a means to an end.

>

> What a lot here tend to forget is we are people not things and we have all feeling needs wants, etc. and Mutual respect goes along way.

> What has to happen is for people to "put up and shut up" and take people willing to do raids but are not willing to be told what to do besides general orders, "Go here, Avoid that! Look out there!". Cut the crap about being perfect and having the best builds, and as long as it is effective, and isn't entirely broken, you will get through if you respect one another and work together!

>

> I actually teach new players fractals on the lower tiers I never stress about gear or builds, I expect people to have half a brain and know a basic understanding of mechanics and the game like moving, using consumables and combo fields, dodging and the like. I don't yell at my party mates, I treat them like human beings not dogs. If you are 80 and going into this content you should have a basic grasp of the game by now.

>

> I know myself, that, my reaction times are not good, and I'm quite terrible at using a full keyboard to play (I may just move everything to the left side eventually for ease of use). I normally only use my mouse to move and click the skills one at a time. Yet I have such good understand of the game that I make up for this.

>

> In the end, all I'm saying is to stop being selfish and put others first before you especially in raids take the new players, they may surprise you. Don't impose such high ridiculous standards all the time, giving a little to others will go a long way and may even make you feel better.

 

Yet your post just reeks of selfishness.

 

Make your own group, pick what ever criteria you feel comfortable with and play away. Don't dictate others how they should play the game. Easy enough right?

[Alinora Targew.1679]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Rennie.6750" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Alinora Targew.1679" said:

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > Yeah meta builds are truly needed to succeed. Has nothing to do with people just being bad or unwilling to make their own groups. /s

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thank you for proving my point. Gimic builds and meta, yap thats that :)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The point was, if gimmick builds who lack all support can finish fights (none of those builds had alacrity, some had no quickness and certainly no distortion), the challenge is not that high that meta is a necessity.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > All hail the gimic, the meta and the dps meter for there is timer to do so.

> > > > > > I'm done talking to you becuse ill get the same response no matter what I will say so... have fun :)

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm sorry my argument made sense and was backed by video evidence while yours was pure speculation.

> > > > >

> > > > > As far as timer, some times it's of significance, some times it's not:

> > > >

> > > > LOL, thanks for bringing the video evidence they just prove my point even more first you bring me 4 gimic raids of ppl that prob have the gear and know what to do then you show me CM video of soloing and now you show me a Duo that can kill vg no prob if you give them an hour, You're right it's only the timer problem then.

> > > > no way they will take that out how will you feel better about yourself comper to others?

> > > >

> > > > and back to the my first post.

> > > >

> > > > Timers and forced builds. I dont blame the community, I blame ANet for that.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Which forced builds? There is no forced builds. The gimmick builds are not forced builds, they are not meta, they are a setup of builds made to work outside of the meta to clear the boss with lack of almost all crucial support. Just to make sure you understand, running 10 times the same class is SUPER inefficient.

> > >

> > > Fact is, **M**ost **E**fficient **T**actic **A**vailable builds make the content potentially easier but are in no way required.

> > >

> > > Players have cleared the content in greens, gear is NOT the issue.

> > >

> > > Timers are very lenient and can often even be ignored.

> > >

> > > Sorry but you seem like someone who has 0 clue about this content.

> >

> > Well if you read between the lines he's simply saying that the skill requirements are too high and that it railroads average players into specific builds they don't enjoy. Kinda ANet's design decision. Whether you agree or not isn't the point, an opinion you don't agree with on a purely subjective topic doesn't make it wrong, well because it's purely subjective. If some say it's too hard for them then it's too hard for them, what's the point in arguing endlessly about that? Do you have to prove at every step that you're better than them? Do you think they care? Since when is saying people that they're wrong to feel that way effective?

> >

> > There are objective ways to measure difficulty but the end result is always emotional.

> >

> > Edit: meta stands for metagame.

>

> and I've provided ample proof that this simply is not the case.

>

> How much more proof do you need besides people:

>

> - going in with non meta setups

> - clearing the content with vastly inferior numbers

> - clearing the content with vastly inferior gear

> - ignoring timers

>

> See one side of this argument has been providing evidence to support its claim. The other side is arguing based off of pure speculation and usually from a point of 0 experience. This has nothing to do with opinion.

>

> Meta stands literally for MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE.

 

you keep missing the point...

 

I like to play a sentinel guardian, that is what FUN for me. Good luck finding a group with that. (most effiecient != most fun for everyone).

Now, find me a video evidence of 10 sentinel guardian doing vg on timer . :) That's probably not going to happend becuse is not TMETATTNP-

 

**T**HE **M**OST **E**FFICIENT **T**ACTIC **A**VAILABLE **T**ILL **T**HE **N**EXT **P**ATCH.

 

But what do I know, I have 0 experience, right? :)

 

When I need to change my gameplay and gear to play some sort of "bot" I just don't find it FUN.

Yes META build are the best way to do stuff but I find them boring.

I did the 2 easy wings with no problems when someone told me: use this & gear, stand here, do that. use those skill at this time, and BAM no problems. Sorry that's not FUN for ME.

 

You like this, that's your gamestyle and its fine. Some like you feel better about themselves for killing XXX boss faster and /or soloing it.

 

so there are players like you and players like me, you have your opinion and i have mine, let's agree to disagree.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Let's face it. Originally legendary armor was a bait for people to try raiding.

 

That contradicts what we know: it was always intended to be a unique reward for those who mastered the hardest content in the game, proportionate to the challenge. ANet realized it was a mistake to also gate the swap-stat feature to niche content, so they made that available outside of raiding. The skins remain the unique reward.

 

It's impossible for a reward to be good enough to feel rewarding without also tempting people outside their comfort zone, so of course, some who had zero interest in raiding were drawn to raids because of the armor. But that's not why ANet gated the skins to raiding.

 

 

[Shiyo.3578]

Raids were a mistake.

 

The direction fractals are being taken is also a mistake. HAMSTRUNG? Really? For what purpose? To force you to always bring a healer or you'll have a bad time? The new fractals greatly encourage a healer role already enough.

 

Remaking and adding new fractals that all take 15-30m isn't very fun. Fractals are meant to be a daily routine, when that routine is taking up to 2 hours it's really not ok.

 

Constantly making harder and more difficult content in this MEGA casual mmo where the player base is INCREDIBLY casual and had no challenge for 3 years of this games life span so is used to extremely easy content, is a horrible direction to take this game. Raids are currently incredibly easy compared to any other MMO's raids and you already have people going completely insane over requirements and comps and LI and kill proof etc etc. Making raids ACTUALLY difficult is just going to make raiding done by even less of the player base and cause even more issues with people trying to get into them. Raids are already a gigantic waste of dev time, making them harder is going to make them the biggest waste of dev time since season1 living story.

[Vella the knight.6072]

when you have a set difficulty or when the content comes out and is played for months/years, then per say oh lets randomly change a fractal out of the blue aka motlen boss fractal for the worst you basically show hey we don't like you doing that content so we are making it longer. this isn't the case of being the first time of it happening.

dungeons went thru it pretty hard.

 

I've gone thru Cof path nerfing,dungeon nerfing(use to be per a character so you could potentially get bunch of tokens the more characters you had), then dungeons got nerf again with reduced gold etc, finally getting some minor buffs if you can manage to do 8 paths. oh and Changes/fix/extending some paths here and there thru the years AC path 2 use to be the easiest path to do and now its t eh more shied away path to be done etc. and this is all content i Loved to play thru these years and I as a player got shitted on every time shit happen to them. I mean almost every type of player in gw2 gets shit on by Anet. wvw gets left in the dust, pvp suffered from forced esports but again everything was suffering because forced esports.

 

raids overall are fine they are only ever hard because someone in the raid group fucks everyone else up. while im only mid tier raider because raid groups require 250 LI and hundreds of kp of every boss before being accepted into pugs(overthe top but that how it seems like coming back into the game seriously). and haven't bother with w5 yet.

 

GW2 is not known for its difficulty or skill if i wanted to work my ass harder or other reason THERE are other games that I can play that and feed that difficult need.

while i understand the grind part of gw2 that is pretty much accept while not smiled upon its there to keep players to coming back but after the removal of Fotm 40 farm As well as removing karma rewards then stacking a Grind long term plan for Fractals is basically TAKING A MASSIVE SHIT ON players(AKA ME a pve grinder) AND SAYING TOUGH IT OUT FOR THE LONG TERM.

 

and it doesn''t HELP THEY THROW everything on the gemstore more so then before.

 

and at the end of the day We are all just human version of gold farming bots.