Flushing Toilet combat mechanic

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

**Do you like this mechanic, and why? **

 

I don't mind it terribly, but I would mind it less if people would figure out that they need to break the damn bar to save everyone. You can dodge roll out of it if you face away from the boss. But I can deal, even on my warrior in melee range. Sometimes I take the full blast on my warrior and survive with a wee bit of health left, but I'm not sure why.

 

**So why is there so much of this all of a sudden, and do you find it fun/rewarding?**

 

I suspect because they developed the "wind" mechanic that they used in the Orr living story episode of S3, and they were super excited to implement it in combat. Their position on it is that it's not really a control effect or some such, so stability shouldn't work. Shrug. I don't personally think that's consistent with other places in the game where the wind can knock you off things, such as in the Cliffside fractal. Stability works fine there.

 

I don't have any more problem with it than I do with any other boss mechanic. But I'm not the kind of person who finds gameplay junk like that "fun/rewarding" at any point. I'm not combat-centered in my appreciation of gaming.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"eyestrain.3056" said:

> > There's a difference between a good challenge that feels satisfying to overcome, and a frustrating/annoying one that one just gets through and then never wants to experience again. Most of that difference comes with player control.

>

> I mean, it felt satisfying to me. You can dodge, CC (enough to stop the attack), Block, Distort, anything else that provides immunity/invlun or creative use of leaps/dashes/blinks.

>

> Sure its annoying when all of those are on cooldown, but the option to get it to stop is entirely controllable.

 

Are we talking about the same attack? The pull from this effect seems 100% unstoppable. You can't block it, dodge it, become invulnerable to it, or anything else I've tried (except teleporting out - that works great!). As far as avoiding the damage, I'm unclear that the swirl itself does any damage. It's difficult to be certain as the animation obscures underlying area effects, enemies, projectiles, the state of California, and anything else on the screen besides the UI! As best I can tell, if you are standing at the center of the swirl when it ends and you are not invulnerable, you die. I have been completely unable to dodge this effect so far, but as I can't really see it's a bit of guess what's going on in there as far as timing goes.

 

So, are you saying that you have been able to block or dodge the auto-death if you're at the center when the effect ends?

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Donari.5237" said:

> I think Block works as a means of getting out. At least, using my Daredevil's blocking utility gets me the ability to wade out to the edge, then turn and shoot at the source.

 

Are you sure? I don't have good access to block for something like this on the build I'm playing. The reason I ask is it appears that the swirl is not actually hitting you with anything, which is (I'm guessing) why nothing works against it. For instance, when I use invulnerability rather than seeing "Invulnerable" pop up in reaction to an effect that is prevented, I see nothing at all and I continue to swirl. I expected block to perform the same way - no actual attack to block, so you just keep swirling.

 

I also don't recall the swirl preventing movement in any direction other than opposite the flow. I believe you can move toward the outer edge, but it may be difficult to tell as your movement in that direction is slowed while you move quickly in another direction. But I haven't seen this attack all that much yet, so I am still trying to learn how it functions.

[Carlin Sanders.3587]

would downvote OP, was expecting request for enemy flushing toilets. not enough toilet humor.

[Fenom.9457]

I kinda like it..

 

Also I thought you were being happy about a new extra skill that flushes toilets. I'm sad that's not a thing now. :(

[Umut.5471]

They don't bother me much but that light blast at the end of the attack is seizure inducing.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"eyestrain.3056" said:

> > > There's a difference between a good challenge that feels satisfying to overcome, and a frustrating/annoying one that one just gets through and then never wants to experience again. Most of that difference comes with player control.

> >

> > I mean, it felt satisfying to me. You can dodge, CC (enough to stop the attack), Block, Distort, anything else that provides immunity/invlun or creative use of leaps/dashes/blinks.

> >

> > Sure its annoying when all of those are on cooldown, but the option to get it to stop is entirely controllable.

>

> Are we talking about the same attack? The pull from this effect seems 100% unstoppable. You can't block it, dodge it, become invulnerable to it, or anything else I've tried (except teleporting out - that works great!). As far as avoiding the damage, I'm unclear that the swirl itself does any damage. It's difficult to be certain as the animation obscures underlying area effects, enemies, projectiles, the state of California, and anything else on the screen besides the UI! As best I can tell, if you are standing at the center of the swirl when it ends and you are not invulnerable, you die. I have been completely unable to dodge this effect so far, but as I can't really see it's a bit of guess what's going on in there as far as timing goes.

>

> So, are you saying that you have been able to block or dodge the auto-death if you're at the center when the effect ends?

 

Yes and if you'd like a video id be more than willing to put together a clip of how you can avoid this attack on any class.

[Ameepa.6793]

It's not hard to avoid or survive, it's just plain annoying because almost every boss and champ spam it every 30 secs or so. It is just overused. Should be a mechanic for 1 boss and that's it.

[lokh.2695]

I like the mechanic and the tech behind it a lot, makes things different....but, and this is important for me, BUT, when the mechanic is paired with AoE Spam that one shots you, or 50 mobs unloading their skills everywhere around the place, it's too much. In a game where positioning is so important I get why they make mechanics that play with positioning, even forcing ppl to be positioned, but it just doesn't work that well in the open world where scaling is a thing.

[zealex.9410]

> @"eyestrain.3056" said:

> With the release of living story 4-1, a number of bosses now use what i'm dubbing "Flushing Toilet" mechanic where you're swirled around the room with total disregard for whether your character has stability or not. It's present in the new fractal, in the living story, the new map, even the new raid. It's very frustrating to direct the character when control is literally sucked away from you, and can make simple tasks extremely difficult. On its own it might be interesting but it's paired with bosses that require a lot of smart positioning, and it becomes as much a fight with the controls as with the boss itself.

> Do you like this mechanic, and why? I'm finding it 100% annoying and arbitrary, and it completely ignores one of the basic mechanics we've had for years: Stability. So why is there so much of this all of a sudden, and do you find it fun/rewarding?

 

Iirc most of not all classes have acess to stab doe. You can also tweak your build at any moment when you are out of combat so i dont see a problem.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"eyestrain.3056" said:

> > With the release of living story 4-1, a number of bosses now use what i'm dubbing "Flushing Toilet" mechanic where you're swirled around the room with total disregard for whether your character has stability or not. It's present in the new fractal, in the living story, the new map, even the new raid. It's very frustrating to direct the character when control is literally sucked away from you, and can make simple tasks extremely difficult. On its own it might be interesting but it's paired with bosses that require a lot of smart positioning, and it becomes as much a fight with the controls as with the boss itself.

> > Do you like this mechanic, and why? I'm finding it 100% annoying and arbitrary, and it completely ignores one of the basic mechanics we've had for years: Stability. So why is there so much of this all of a sudden, and do you find it fun/rewarding?

>

> Iirc most of not all classes have acess to stab doe. You can also tweak your build at any moment when you are out of combat so i dont see a problem.

 

You should probably read through the thread a bit. We've covered this: The pull on this effect doesn't actually "hit" you with anything. So it doesn't give effects like stability - or even block/evade/invuln - anything to prevent. You will continue to swirl as long as you're within the area of effect no matter what you do. The damage component at the end is preventable with invulnerability, however.

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"eyestrain.3056" said:

> > > > There's a difference between a good challenge that feels satisfying to overcome, and a frustrating/annoying one that one just gets through and then never wants to experience again. Most of that difference comes with player control.

> > >

> > > I mean, it felt satisfying to me. You can dodge, CC (enough to stop the attack), Block, Distort, anything else that provides immunity/invlun or creative use of leaps/dashes/blinks.

> > >

> > > Sure its annoying when all of those are on cooldown, but the option to get it to stop is entirely controllable.

> >

> > Are we talking about the same attack? The pull from this effect seems 100% unstoppable. You can't block it, dodge it, become invulnerable to it, or anything else I've tried (except teleporting out - that works great!). As far as avoiding the damage, I'm unclear that the swirl itself does any damage. It's difficult to be certain as the animation obscures underlying area effects, enemies, projectiles, the state of California, and anything else on the screen besides the UI! As best I can tell, if you are standing at the center of the swirl when it ends and you are not invulnerable, you die. I have been completely unable to dodge this effect so far, but as I can't really see it's a bit of guess what's going on in there as far as timing goes.

> >

> > So, are you saying that you have been able to block or dodge the auto-death if you're at the center when the effect ends?

>

> Yes and if you'd like a video id be more than willing to put together a clip of how you can avoid this attack on any class.

 

Please do share video. I'm a big fan of that! But I don't need you to show me how to avoid the effect on each class. I'm simply trying to fully understand how this attack works.

 

Questions I have:

 

Does anything work against the swirl effect besides teleporting out of it? I have verified that it ignores evade and invulnerability. I assume it ignores blocking as well, but I'd like to be sure.

 

I suspect this is due to the fact that the pull doesn't actually hit you with anything, therefore there is no "attack" for these effects to prevent. Toward that end, it would be useful to show the combat log during the effect to see if we can identify whether or not the pull has an attack associated with it in the combat log.

 

How is the damage dealt? Does it deal damage only once, when the effect ends? Do only players standing at the center of it at this point take damage? Or do players standing within the area of effect, but closer to the outer edge take reduced damage? No damage at all?

 

What effects are capable of preventing the damage component? So far I've only had success with invulnerability. It doesn't prevent the swirl, but if you're invulnerable when the damage is delivered it will prevent it. I am curious if evade/block work as well, but so far I have died every time I've tried to time a dodge to evade the damage after letting it pull me in. However, I find it impossible to see what is happening behind this effect, so it's possible I am simply off on my timing. So, can you dodge/block the damage at the end?

[Menadena.7482]

> @"eyestrain.3056" said:

> > @"Tseison.4659" said:

> > I actually like this mechanic and it adds a good challenge to it. Yeah it might be annoying for some people but you know what, you guys just love things that are easy because you’re so confirmed to it...

> >

> > As a Mesmer, how I deal with this mechanic is that once it starts, just surrender to its current. What’s the final blast is immenant then immediately use a stun break, stability, invulnerable, blink or evade and you WON’T be damaged.

> >

> > I’ve done this many times especially dodge rolling against the spin and haven’t received any damage. Now for those who have PC problems for when it occurs, maybe they’ll tweek it a bit so it’s not causing laggy or visual issues.

>

> To me the issue isn't the damage from the attack, but the inability to position your character out of immediate danger. Being dragged directly into a cluster of aoes is no problem when I have one or two dodges handy, but once i'm out of endurance and still at the mercy of the flush, it's up to luck whether i'm able to pray my character several feet from where I am to avoid another big, dangerous aoe. I end up taking tons of damage that I can see coming, but can't really do anything about. This is my biggest problem with the toilet flush.

> Also- assuming I just want everything to be a loot pinata I can press 1 to win against is pretty patronizing. There's a difference between a good challenge that feels satisfying to overcome, and a frustrating/annoying one that one just gets through and then never wants to experience again. Most of that difference comes with player control.

 

Yes, my biggest annoyance is no control. Damage from a boss is expected, not fun but expected. I do not expect to not even have an idea where I am aiming. Fighting a boss then winding up in a corner facing a wall with no way out of it almost feels like accidental map breaking.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Please do share video. I'm a big fan of that! But I don't need you to show me how to avoid the effect on each class. I'm simply trying to fully understand how this attack works.

>

> Questions I have:

>

> Does anything work against the swirl effect besides teleporting out of it? I have verified that it ignores evade and invulnerability. I assume it ignores blocking as well, but I'd like to be sure.

>

> I suspect this is due to the fact that the pull doesn't actually hit you with anything, therefore there is no "attack" for these effects to prevent. Toward that end, it would be useful to show the combat log during the effect to see if we can identify whether or not the pull has an attack associated with it in the combat log.

>

> How is the damage dealt? Does it deal damage only once, when the effect ends? Do only players standing at the center of it at this point take damage? Or do players standing within the area of effect, but closer to the outer edge take reduced damage? No damage at all?

>

> What effects are capable of preventing the damage component? So far I've only had success with invulnerability. It doesn't prevent the swirl, but if you're invulnerable when the damage is delivered it will prevent it. I am curious if evade/block work as well, but so far I have died every time I've tried to time a dodge to evade the damage after letting it pull me in. However, I find it impossible to see what is happening behind this effect, so it's possible I am simply off on my timing. So, can you dodge/block the damage at the end?

 

Give me a few minutes to make and process it, i can answer based on what i currently know now.

 

The only attack (damage) occurs at the end of the animation. I think there is scaling damage based on distance (will find out more after making the video).

 

 

[Nemo.5609]

I'm fairly certain I have gotten lucky and evaded the central blast a few times. Otherwise, the damage scales with how close you are to the caster - it takes around 25-30% of my healthbar on the outer fringes and downs in the centre. It is easiest to stand right next to a piece of geometry (pillar, crate, wall) if possible so you don't get spun around that much. You do have to be mindful of the direction the spin is going in that case.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

Stability should be a counter. Otherwise its just another swirl of color where you can't see whats going on.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Give me a few minutes to make and process it, i can answer based on what i currently know now.

>

> The only attack (damage) occurs at the end of the animation. I think there is scaling damage based on distance (will find out more after making the video).

 

Just as an update, the game is really unstable right now and i cannot record anything without the game crashing every 2-3 minutes. I'll try again once a hotfix goes out.

 

 

[Ardid.7203]

I think mobility skills might counter it. At least rocket boots does.

[eyestrain.3056]

Teleports and rocket boots work, but only because you're able to move the (sometimes massive) distance to escape the effect entirely. On some story and open world bosses, the AOE takes up the entire room, however, so even using a large leap/teleport won't get you entirely out of its radius.

 

> @"Carlin Sanders.3587" said:

> would downvote OP, was expecting request for enemy flushing toilets. not enough toilet humor.

 

Sorry to disappoint, and thank you for not downvoting. I wouldnt want my forum reputation to go down the crapper.

[Raizel.8175]

I kinda... don't get the problem? You're supposed to break the casters defiance bar to interrupt the swirly-swirly-attack, aren't you? Kinda feels like the Eater-of-souls-discussion. People really have to learn about cc. The only real problem these days is the visual cluster-f***, which obscures AoE-Circles and the like. Everything else is perfectly fine.

[eyestrain.3056]

I just ran into this mechanic yet again against the last boss of raid wing 5. In this case there is no defiance bar to break... you just have to endure this long attack against which all you can do is struggle to keep your character near the edges of the room. I found this mechanic not very fun and somewhat questionable before, but it's become actively annoying to find it in more and more situations.