This balance patch = literally nothing?

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Xillllix.3485" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > This patch wasn't nothing. Weak classes getting nerfed and mesmer getting buffed isn't nothing. It makes balance _worse_, yes, but that isn't nothing.

> > >

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > The patch was a bit undertuned, sure.

> > > > But think of it this way. What if they had gone the opposite direction? What if they had done what most of us feared and made condition damage useless? That would arguably be worse than what we have now.

> > > strongly disagree. A few months with condi being nonexistant would actually be very interesting. A lot classes and builds that are rendered unplayable by condi spam would suddenly see use.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > We've had ~3 years with conditions being non-existant. It's not interesting in the least, thanks very much!

>

> These were the best 3 years from a gameplay perspective, the most balanced with the most build variety. Some good condition builds existed. And even today a good ele condi build is impossible.

 

Well, not quite, the period between Condi fixes (when they removed the 25 cap and made most stuff stack intensity not just duration) and before HoT, that was the most prolific period in PvP, no doubt. But before that, again with a few exceptions, the most prevalent builds were power.

 

> @"choovanski.5462" said:

> > @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > > @"Xillllix.3485" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > > This patch wasn't nothing. Weak classes getting nerfed and mesmer getting buffed isn't nothing. It makes balance _worse_, yes, but that isn't nothing.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > The patch was a bit undertuned, sure.

> > > > > > But think of it this way. What if they had gone the opposite direction? What if they had done what most of us feared and made condition damage useless? That would arguably be worse than what we have now.

> > > > > strongly disagree. A few months with condi being nonexistant would actually be very interesting. A lot classes and builds that are rendered unplayable by condi spam would suddenly see use.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > We've had ~3 years with conditions being non-existant. It's not interesting in the least, thanks very much!

> > >

> > > These were the best 3 years from a gameplay perspective, the most balanced with the most build variety. Some good condition builds existed. And even today a good ele condi build is impossible.

> >

> > Agree. Balance before HoT came was the best this game ever had. Many skills actually had significant cds and the whole game was overall far less spammy. PvP should be reverted back to that patch imo

>

> give me a retro server w trait points & i will reinstall

>

> id be very happy to play old valk amulet warrior with shouts & hammer. funnest build i ever played. really skillful too. all about timing interrupts & final thrust w intelligence. really cool to tactically condi clear & heal allies too

>

> this aoe spamfest on the other hand RIP fun

 

1) You can still use that build for the most part. A few traits have changed, but hambow is still viable, and probably the most played for F2P players.

2) I hope you don't mean back when you'd spend trait points to gain stats... Cause that was cancer, having to take an otherwise useless trait line because you needed power or some other stat, not fun.

3) Well, it's not a 1v1 game, so aoes are more useful when you're team fighting. Doesn't mean that good players will spam aoes on 1v1 or even spam aoes at all.

I mean i play scourge mostly, and most of the time i'm using single-target skills. Sure i use Shades to control points, but that's not different from Bunker Engis in the past filling points with turrets, or spamming grenades all over the place.

I'm going to bet you're just salty that your main class isn't as relevant as you hoped.

 

Also, back on topic, you should remember this isn't a MAJOR BALANCE PATCH. They do those on pre-seasons. This is a "minor" patch, simply aimed to "tone down" conditions a bit. It wasn't as heavy handed as some hoped or feared. So it wasn't too bad.

Do i wish they do these more often so the meta could shift faster away from stagnant toxic places (Chrono and Tempest tanks in Season 1 come to mind as having cause a lot of the loss of players in PvP), that doesn't mean this was a bad, or useless patch. Sure they left some things unclear, like some changes to ele and the buff to chrono and Firebrand heals. I mean those are probably preludes to more significant changes to come in February or Mid January, but without the complete package these changes are just adding fuel to the fire of discontentment.

 

[choovanski.5462]

@"ReaverKane.7598" dude, im not talking about hambow. i’m talking about an offmeta shout warrior build i ran while shoutbow was a thing. as anyone who plays warrior knows, shout warrior hasn’t been viable since HoT. it’s even worse than tempest in current meta. also, it’s widely agreed by the competitive community that pre specialisations was the best pvp balance we ever had, so i would hardly call it cancer. this scourge + firebrand meta on the other hand....

 

no idea why you think hambow is viable, it isn’t. the only viable warrior build after strength was gutted in the patch is meta spellbreaker. that’s it, that’s all. berserker was nerfed out of meta pre PoF, & core has just been killed in the last patch.

 

so am i salty because warrior & engineer are awful outside of PoF? yes scourge player, i am.

but i'm also salty because of how badly designed scourge is, which has made for one of the worst metas this game has had. you wouldn’t understand because you’re playing it, but for anyone who isn’t a scourge, mirage, holo, druid, firebrand, or spellbreaker this is a terrible meta.

 

as for the patch, dude it’s an awful patch. they nerfed underperforming specs, & left OP specs alone or buffed them. but i guess since you play scourge you don’t think it was that bad. that makes sense.

 

>! prior to this patch i could play core warrior & do fine, but it’s been gutted. sure you can tell me i should just give anet £30 so i can play an OP spec like you, but dude. im not going to reward developers with money because they can’t balance their game. i’m just not going to play it.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"choovanski.5462" said:

> @"ReaverKane.7598" dude, im not talking about hambow. i’m talking about an offmeta shout warrior build i ran while shoutbow was a thing. it’s widely agreed by the competitive community that pre specialisations was the best pvp balance we ever had, so i would hardly call it cancer. this scourge + firebrand meta on the other hand....

>

If you think that having to take traits for stats was a good thing (as in when trait points where a thing), well, your opinion is immiediatly discredited. And, yes, i said so myself, that PvP was at its best before HoT, but after condi patch, which was long after they removed the whole traits-for-stats thing.

 

> as anyone who plays warrior knows, shout warrior hasn’t been viable since HoT. it’s even worse than tempest in current meta.

>

> no idea why you think hambow is viable, it isn’t. the only viable warrior build after strength was gutted in the patch is meta spellbreaker. that’s it, that’s all. berserker was nerfed out of meta pre PoF, & core has just been killed in the last patch.

>

Sure. Unless you're F2P and don't have Elites. Which are the people i said probably still use it.

I mean, since HoT, Elite specs easily outclass most core builds.

 

> so am i salty because warrior & engineer are awful outside of PoF? yes scourge player, i am.

 

Yes i play Scourge, and before that i played Soulbeast, i was going to try Firebrand, but i don't play PvP enough to really be able to run around switching classes. I prefer to stick to one i do well in instead of doing a disservice to the rest of my team. And i play scourge because i used to play Reaper, and used to play Necro. Necro has always been one of my favourite classes to play in PvP. And the fact that i play Scourge is more a twist of fate than anything.

 

Like i said i don't play a lot of PvP, i like to flit around all game modes, so i play them more on the casual side. So last season, when PoF came out i was working on finishing a couple of the achievements for the legendary back (i wasn't playing PvP because work was taking up my time before then) and i needed to finish the win 10 games on a couple classes. It just turned out that the ones i had closer to completing that, and hadn't done it yet was Ranger and Necro, so i played Soulbeast (and destroyed every scourge and Sellbreaker i fought, because they really aren't great at range (Firebrand wasn't big back then), then i played scourge, and i liked it.

 

I'm not going to excuse myself for adapting to the meta and playing a class that is good, and that i have fun playing. In fact even before the patch was revealed to not be as bad as it could have been, i was probably still going to play scourge.

 

> but i'm also salty because of how badly designed scourge is, which has made for one of the worst metas this game has had. you wouldn’t understand because you’re playing it, but for anyone who isn’t a scourge, mirage, holo, druid, firebrand, or spellbreaker this is a terrible meta.

>

The worse meta the game has had was post HoT (Season 1) when you'd spend the whole match without anyone dying because extreme tank meta. And that lasted a whole season without changing. Current meta is NOTHING compared to that crap. Scourge has counters, firebrand has counters, Spellbreaker has counters. Sadly most of those counters are other PoF classes, and yes that's a problem. But unlike Season 1 where the whole problem persisted for 3 months, we're already seeing changes.

 

And still, you've named 6/9 professions as very viable (maybe even OP) in the current meta. I wouldn't say that's anywhere near as terrible as you make it, don't you think.

I'll tell you more, as someone that plays a scourge, there are VERY defined weaknesses in scourge. Those are shared with a couple of those classes you mentioned.

 

> as for the patch, dude it’s an awful patch. they nerfed underperforming specs, & left OP specs alone or buffed them. but i guess since you play scourge you don’t think it was that bad. that makes sense.

>

Scourge got nerfed... All condi skills in Scourge got nerfed, like most other condi skills.

Sure they buffed axe, and improved the usability of barrier. But for the most part, yeah Scourge damage went down, at least the bursty part.

Also, you keep forgetting this is a "minor" patch for Arena Net, so they weren't aiming on remaking the meta, just toning down some of the burst potential in conditions.

 

> sure you can tell me i should just give anet £30 so i can play an OP spec like you, but dude. im not going to reward developers with money because they can’t balance their game. i’m just not going to play it.

Ah! Now i see where you're coming from. You're salty that you can't be as good as the people who ACTUALLY BOUGHT THE GAME? Yes, i have no pity for you. And good riddance. If you're not supporting the game by at least buying it, you're just dead weight.

If you can't pony up 30€ for a game you like, you have really no business criticizing it. You're like the lazy ass people that don't bring them selves to get their asses off the couch to go vote, and then complain daily about the guy that got elected.

 

 

 

 

 

[choovanski.5462]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Ah! Now i see where you're coming from. You're salty that you can't be as good as the people who ACTUALLY BOUGHT THE GAME? Yes, i have no pity for you. And good riddance. If you're not supporting the game by at least buying it, you're just dead weight.

> If you can't pony up 30€ for a game you like, you have really no business criticizing it. You're like the lazy kitten people that don't bring them selves to get their kitten off the couch to go vote, and then complain daily about the guy that got elected.

 

what do you mean? actually bought the game? i bought both gw2 & HoT (f2p can’t post in forums btw, so there are no f2p players here), i have bought gems too. i have absolutely supported this company. i didn’t buy PoF because i don’t have £30 to throw around, i didn’t buy it because i didn’t like the direction balance & this game was going. i still don’t.

 

while you might think that each set of elite specialisations being removed from the meta (excluding druid) to make way for the next expansion is fine- i don’t, & this is not an unpopular opinion. having 6 out of 18 elite specs being viable in pvp is not great, it’s anything but. it ruins build diversity & player experience, just so anet can make more £££.

 

we could have had a great meta with a ton of variety. for example engineers could choose between dps with holo, & sustain with scrapper, rev could have been viable. this game could have been so much better. not that you care, as long as each new expansion is more power creeped than the last, & there is a new OP faceroll spec for you to play you’re happy. wow dude, how disappointing.

[ReaverKane.7598]

Well, here's the thing...

I have a friend, higher ranked than me, he plays Reaper.

I've played Spvp with DragonHunter. Obviously some of the new Elites were more PvP Oriented. I mean Spellbreaker is pretty much useless in PvE. Punishment skills lose most of their power in PvE. So why wouldn't these obviously more pvp-oriented specializations be better in PvP than the previous ones?

And although they are slightly better, others aren't invalidated. I prefer Soulbeast (or core Ranger) to Druid, yet druid is more preferable to the others.

You're pretty much the old guy raging against smartphones...

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> Looks like what was already strong got some buffs and what was weak/subpar got nerfed. Why? What's the point. Patch is just a wall of text about nothing.

 

I think you answered your own question. It's literally something. In your opinion, it's figuratively nothing.

[Aylaine.1036]

Did Mirage get buffed in PvP? I know core mesmer stuff got upped, like mantras, but I've only seen one Mirage use axe in PvP so far. Rest are doing the meta build which uses sword. So I don't think all the crying about Mirage getting buffed holds much merit. They do need to be nerfed, but they only got buffed in PvE as far as I can tell.

[Kapax.3801]

I do not expect anything from the balance team, and even then they manage to disappoint me ... that's GW2's 5 year history.

[Xibalbar.7459]

I lost my confidence about the balanceteam in total.6/10 of classes in a match are fbs/necros and mesmers. You cant survive with melee in any scenario to this. Its absurd, its a shame calling it out pvp.

[lilypop.7819]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"lilypop.7819" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > My biggest complaint is that I still think they're missing the point on condi.

> > >

> > > Conditions were not designed to work like DoTs in Everquest - they were given short durations with armor penetration. The problem is not that they were ramping up too quickly, it's that they simply were doing too much damage. If ramp up is the metric Anet cares about, what's the point of them ignoring armor? These condi changes do nothing but reinforce the sort of broken gameplay we have now where armor means next to nothing and you're forced to run a bunch of anti condi in your kit.

> > >

> > > Everything would work way better if condi did lowish overall damage, but ramped up quickly with very limited target access to cleanse/immunity. They should have reduced the damage from condi and kept the same duration instead of increasing the duration and keeping the same damage. Makes no sense.

> >

> > I think they still believe that there is fundamentally enough cleanse in the game to counteract condi spam. The change is really a token to give peeps more time to cleanse.

> >

> > Problem is that they taken no account of the bee-hive condi spamming that occurs in PvP that has come to negate everything else in the game in terms of tactics and that the UI doesn't support such lethal condition damage.

> >

> > Frankly it's one thing to be repeatedly slashed by a GS another to be pinned to the ground by ramping small numbers on very small red squares. Thing is the defence is passive with the onus on the receiver. This is why huge fast condi damage is so popular, the spammer doesn't have to think much about the opponent's actions - it's all very very marco friendly. Of course if instead of 'cleanse' you had a 'reflect' element - I have suggested a x% movement slow for every active condition on opponents - then the game would be a bit more interesting ...

> >

> > As is - at the lower end anyway - PvP is just Spamwars2 and very poor gameplay, a complete mess and I suspect very marco driven - the team with the most condi specs/marcos pretty much always wins. Obviously when you get very skilled at PvP, this may not be the case, but peeps aren't going to make it that far are they?

> >

> > Condi splatter is just turning the PvP gameplay into mush, maybe balanced mush, but mush none the less.

> >

> > ---------------

> >

> > Regards the UI, I would suggest a set of different coloured bubbles that grow in size as per damage inflicted per tick.

> >

> > --------------

> >

> > Putting the onus on the receiver and camo-ing the application just isn't playing fair if the intent is to equalised dots and dd. Clearly there is no equality and the preference will be for condi splatter and marco driven gaming.

>

> Right, but the obvious proper solution is to significantly lower condition damage and remove most sources of cleanse/immunity. Having it this way just throws the game way out of balance in all kinds of ways.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with equalising condi and DD burst - personally I don't like it (see above) - however what I am sure of is that the PvP Combat UI doesn't support such equalisation. So I have argued for an additional penalty for dropping lots of AoE conditions which would not affect the PvE game - i.e. some sort of movement restriction penalty. There is something not right about all that condi AoE combined with high mobility, imo - it circumvents LoS and de-targeting mechanics which can be pretty nasty for DDers, so what is/are the drawback(s) for condi splatter? With equalisation there doesn't appear to be any, except odd little 1 and 2s of DoT removal bound into lots actions when faced with burst drops of the order of 10 to 20 - it's as clear a mud what a character can do to survive.

 

Having said this I noticed for the first time a new graphic whilst in PvP tonight - a purple solid half disc around my character perhaps indicating potential confusion damage? Been playing for a number of years and I have never noticed this before. Maybe someone is experimenting or maybe I need to be more observant. Whatever, but the current scheme of little squares with little numbers all at the bottom of the screen may be ok for PvE but it is very sucky in PvP with condi burst equalisation. The PvP Combat UI was a bit dated five years ago and could do with some modernisation. I swear that the current Combat UI is no better than the fifteen year old EQ1. DoTs in that game - which was primarily PvE - where long and very nasty and most definitely not bursty (was common to die long after your had killed your foe).

[lilypop.7819]

It might be better to have three separate PvP Queues, Core/HoT/PoF with the specs limited to the associated PvE environments - i.e. if you use a HoT elite trait line in your build spec then you go into the HoT Queue and so forth. Would make more sense than the current Unranked/Ranked Queues, imo. Certainly this would take some pressure off the Balance Team :) who appear to be balancing solely for the far more popular PvE environments.

 

Ofc ANet might sell less product as a consequence, but I am not too sure that would be the case. Afterall the Elite specs are most definitely more flashy than core specs. You could even then include the use of mounts in the PoF Queue with appropriately new maps!!! Hehe. The HoT Queue could have the addition of some fairly nasty NPCs guarding selective points. All good USPs.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Xillllix.3485" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > This patch wasn't nothing. Weak classes getting nerfed and mesmer getting buffed isn't nothing. It makes balance _worse_, yes, but that isn't nothing.

> > >

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > The patch was a bit undertuned, sure.

> > > > But think of it this way. What if they had gone the opposite direction? What if they had done what most of us feared and made condition damage useless? That would arguably be worse than what we have now.

> > > strongly disagree. A few months with condi being nonexistant would actually be very interesting. A lot classes and builds that are rendered unplayable by condi spam would suddenly see use.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > We've had ~3 years with conditions being non-existant. It's not interesting in the least, thanks very much!

>

> These were the best 3 years from a gameplay perspective, the most balanced with the most build variety. Some good condition builds existed. And even today a good ele condi build is impossible.

 

Anet could had gone with the hex casting and damage skills like deadly swarm, but they wanted a game where they dont wanted to spend time working on decent skill design, they would rather add something oposite to what is imba wich imo is even worse.

Same behavior with boons wich resulted in the game being overfloed with just boon stacking mindlessy.

 

Sadly this game is all about aoe...nothing more... since aoe gameplay makes it very friendly for a new player, they dont need even to know what targets need to be taken down like we had on gw1 gvg/pvp gameplay, all that matters is aoe and high damage...

 

stack direct condition aplyers with good spam capabilitiy if aoe the better.

Stacking and spam from cleaves and aoe, if range the better...

Stack aoe boon classes like a manied and keep spamming...

 

Theres to much aoe in this game... feels unskilled and looks ugly when observing the game...

[Apolo.5942]

Conditions need to be NORMALIZED.

 

- SINGLE player conditions stack on DURATION.

- MULTIPLE players conditions stack on INTENSITY.

- REBALANCE duration, damage and aplication.

 

And reevaluate from there.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Coronit.9432" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > This patch wasn't nothing. Weak classes getting nerfed and mesmer getting buffed isn't nothing. It makes balance _worse_, yes, but that isn't nothing.

> > > >

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > The patch was a bit undertuned, sure.

> > > > > But think of it this way. What if they had gone the opposite direction? What if they had done what most of us feared and made condition damage useless? That would arguably be worse than what we have now.

> > > > strongly disagree. A few months with condi being nonexistant would actually be very interesting. A lot classes and builds that are rendered unplayable by condi spam would suddenly see use.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > We've had ~3 years with conditions being non-existant. It's not interesting in the least, thanks very much!

> >

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > This patch wasn't nothing. Weak classes getting nerfed and mesmer getting buffed isn't nothing. It makes balance _worse_, yes, but that isn't nothing.

> > > >

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > The patch was a bit undertuned, sure.

> > > > > But think of it this way. What if they had gone the opposite direction? What if they had done what most of us feared and made condition damage useless? That would arguably be worse than what we have now.

> > > > strongly disagree. A few months with condi being nonexistant would actually be very interesting. A lot classes and builds that are rendered unplayable by condi spam would suddenly see use.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > We've had ~3 years with conditions being non-existant. It's not interesting in the least, thanks very much!

> >

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > This patch wasn't nothing. Weak classes getting nerfed and mesmer getting buffed isn't nothing. It makes balance _worse_, yes, but that isn't nothing.

> > > >

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > The patch was a bit undertuned, sure.

> > > > > But think of it this way. What if they had gone the opposite direction? What if they had done what most of us feared and made condition damage useless? That would arguably be worse than what we have now.

> > > > strongly disagree. A few months with condi being nonexistant would actually be very interesting. A lot classes and builds that are rendered unplayable by condi spam would suddenly see use.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > We've had ~3 years with conditions being non-existant. It's not interesting in the least, thanks very much!

> >

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"reikken.4961" said:

> > > > This patch wasn't nothing. Weak classes getting nerfed and mesmer getting buffed isn't nothing. It makes balance _worse_, yes, but that isn't nothing.

> > > >

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > The patch was a bit undertuned, sure.

> > > > > But think of it this way. What if they had gone the opposite direction? What if they had done what most of us feared and made condition damage useless? That would arguably be worse than what we have now.

> > > > strongly disagree. A few months with condi being nonexistant would actually be very interesting. A lot classes and builds that are rendered unplayable by condi spam would suddenly see use.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > We've had ~3 years with conditions being non-existant. It's not interesting in the least, thanks very much!

> >

> > Well, that were the best years of gw2...

> > PvP got downhill with the trait revamp.

> >

> > To the topic, bad balance team did their thing. No idea why they still get payed.

>

> Actually no. It was AFTER the trait and condi revamp that pvp peaked. What actually broke pvp was the crappy balance at the beginning of PoF plus their decision to get rid of team queues a while later.

> I mean a TON of people simply stopped playing PvP on season 1 because of the ridiculousness of the tank meta at the time. I mean chronos and tempests were unkillable. And that went on for the whole season.

 

Mmm sorry to say this isn't true. Untying stats from traits and allowing three full lines would have worked if ANet had actually adjusted the traits and skills to work with peoples' new builds which had optimized stats. There were a lot of fantastic traits for damage and defenses in lines with healing power and class mechanic synergy/cooldown reduction, and these traits were balanced around the old values and not updated. This just resulted in people dealing like 15% more damage across the board and getting access to way more passive effects which previously, they couldn't.

 

The game was still fun afterwards, but the PvP communities were faltering before HoT even landed. Once HoT dropped things started getting real shaky from tank chrono etc., which is why the entire competitive league literally left the game and GW2 was dropped by the ESL on the basis of not being a competitive game.

 

I'd honestly slap down $150 or more just to go back to late-2013-era GW2 with just enough support for bug fixes. Or I'd pay like a $20/mo sub. Like choo, it's not about the money for me. I dropped hundreds if not over a thousand dollars on the core game without issue. I just refuse to support a company which has zero reason to fail but can't get it's shit together, and when I can take a few hours to design and fix concepts better than they can in three months.

 

If I had the background experience to justify myself professionally as a game developer (while I have MMO production experience, that was administrative, not development), I'd go as far as taking an extended trip to Bellevue and consulting ANet for free.

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Celtus.8456" said:

> How many gems does it cost to unlock a new balance team ?

 

over 400,000 gems to hire a new balance team

>!for twelve seconds.