Snowflake Conversion

[CaelestiaEmpyrea.2617]

There appears to be a bug in the conversion rate. If you convert anything other than tiny snowflakes, you wind up losing HUGE numbers of snowflakes that you should be getting. I.e. converting a Pristine snowflake SHOULD get you 32 new snowflakes, since it takes 32 tiny snowflakes to make 1 pristine. But instead you are getting only 10 new snowflakes, a loss of 22 snowflakes per pristine, or **5500** per stack of 250.

This HAS to be a bug. If ANet deliberately decided to do this, they are unfairly ripping off all players who had upgraded snowflakes to top tier in order to save inventory space. There is NO valid justification for the devaluation of higher-tier snowflakes, so this must be a bug that ANet will soon fix.

[OriOri.8724]

No, the dev who implemented this said that pristines only give you 10 of the new snowflake. Its intended.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> No, the dev who implemented this said that pristines only give you 10 of the new snowflake. Its intended.

 

To be fair to the OP, the dev didn't actually say, "we intended people to lose 2/3 of their snowflakes for wanting to reduce their inventory clutter." 10:1 is vastly different from 32:1 and it seems odd that they wouldn't explain why.

 

On the other hand, 10:1 is drastically different from 10:1, so it hardly seems likely that this happened accidentally, especially since the dev in question made it clear this is something he has been working for _years_.

 

****

Regardless, tons of people will already have converted, so I can't imagine that ANet is going to make a change now. That would compound the confusion and frustration and end up making hardly anyone happy.

[LanfearShadowflame.3189]

Since there are recipes that still call for the various tiers of snowflakes, and those haven't been changed (as far as I know) there are reasons to not convert all of your snowflakes anyway.

[crashburntoo.7431]

It's likely a matter of compression. Where there was a scale of 1:32 before in valuation and usefulness for recipes, etc., that's now been compressed into a scale of 1:10. The fact that there's only 2 types of consumables with the new system, similar to Candy Corns, means the entire dynamic has shifted. They needed a conversion strategy, and this is what they chose. I doubt that it's a rip-off, but it may appear that way without a little more explanation from the Dev team. The real telling point will be in the redesigned recipes when compared with the old ones to see if this approximate compression factor of 3 was applied.

 

Edit: I should add that if you were fortunate or masochistic enough to leave all of your materials in the Tiny form but you intend to use them in the new system for purposes similar to the Flawless form, you are going to get triple the value. Compression effects are heaviest at the top end of the scale and negligible at the bottom end of the scale. Think of it this way... the new system will translate directly from the old system based on how you could have **used** the materials.

 

Edit2: @"Alexander Youngblood II.9341", can you comment on the design/compression factor? It's best to put this to rest early. Thanks

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Regardless, tons of people will already have converted, so I can't imagine that ANet is going to make a change now. That would compound the confusion and frustration and end up making hardly anyone happy.

 

They know how many of each that people had in their bank when they introduced this change so they should be able to figure out what people should have got. They've done it in the past, I'm sure people received mails with random mats in the past.

[Ok I Did It.2854]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/314845#Comment_314845

 

Its explained here by the dev.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ok I Did It.2854" said:

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/314845#Comment_314845

>

> Its explained here by the dev.

 

****

> @"Alexander Youngblood II.9341" said:

> One Flawless snowflake no longer equals 32 Tiny Snowflakes.

> One Flawless Snowflake is equal to 10 Snowflakes. There is no way to acquire the old Snowflakes so their old values are not relevant when asking what a Flawless Snowflake is worth.

 

> > Is it intended that we lose out when converting Pristine snowflakes to the new ones?

> @"Alexander Youngblood II.9341" said:

> Following the old values, there is a conversion loss, yes. This is a consequence of moving to this new system.

 

> > @"Sir Auris.3476" said:

> > Theoratically I Just could have salvaged my 2,000 Flawless Snowflakes and get 64,000 Tiny Snowflakes. Now I'm just getting 20,000 of the new Snowflakes.

> @"Alexander Youngblood II.9341" said:

> There are often ways to theoretically have benefitted from insider knowledge about economic changes.

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

In other words:

* Did the devs realize that those who converted tinies to pristines would lose out on over 60% of the ordinary flakes? Yes.

* Is there a remote chance they are going to undo this? No. They've thought about it a lot and have made their decision.

* Should I convert my pristines? Yes, there's no reason to wait.

 

****

Bonus question:

* Do the devs think this is fair? They don't think that's a meaningful question: any conversion results in changes; some people win out with such changes and some do not.

 

Clearly, this is more interpretative on my part — the dev didn't say this in as many words; it's just close to the philosophy they have stated in the past and consistent with the explanation above.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I had 40 stacks of Flawless Snowflakes, which I gathered over the past weeks for our guildhall. Last years wintersday was a horrible desaster in our guild, because only two players contributed snowflakes and we ended up with 2 snow cannons and one tree and a few very ugly cubes, which look like anything but ice/snow. I was expecting a conversion rate of 100 Flawless Snoflakes to 1 Pile of Snow. That are 40x250/100 = 100 Piles of Snow.

 

Opposite to you guys, who keep studying patchnotes and reports/guides, I jumped straight into Wintersday. When I wanted to exchange my Snowflakes for decoration, I noticed the new version and the conversion system. When I converted my first stack, I was literally like O_O (for 1 minute straight).

 

I am happy with the result, more than happy. OP gave me quite a heart-attack. Big thanks to @"Ok I Did It.2854" for the link and so saving my evening ^^.

[crashburntoo.7431]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> I had 40 stacks of Flawless Snowflakes, which I gathered over the past weeks for our guildhall. Last years wintersday was a horrible desaster in our guild, because only two players contributed snowflakes and we ended up with 2 snow cannons and one tree and a few very ugly cubes, which look like anything but ice/snow. I was expecting a conversion rate of 100 Flawless Snoflakes to 1 Pile of Snow. That are 40x250/100 = 100 Piles of Snow.

>

> Opposite to you guys, who keep studying patchnotes and reports/guides, I jumped straight into Wintersday. When I wanted to exchange my Snowflakes for decoration, I noticed the new version and the conversion system. When I converted my first stack, I was literally like O_O (for 1 minute straight).

>

> I am happy with the result, more than happy. OP gave me quite a heart-attack. Big thanks to @"Ok I Did It.2854" for the link and so saving my evening ^^.

 

Exactly... intended use... conversion with compression... nothing to be alarmed about.

 

Glad you're happy with the results!

[mtpelion.4562]

Due to the conversion change, I have had 4,576 new snowflakes stolen from me by ArenaNet. Hopefully the rewards are just as crappy as in years past so it won't matter.

[ThomasC.1056]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Bonus question:

> * Do the devs think this is fair? They don't think that's a meaningful question: any conversion results in changes; some people win out with such changes and some do not.

 

I'll remember that next time someone asks me how tall I am. Instead of answering in meters, I'll answer in feets, and I'll probably get 68% shorter in the process.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Bonus question:

> > * Do the devs think this is fair? They don't think that's a meaningful question: any conversion results in changes; some people win out with such changes and some do not.

>

> I'll remember that next time someone asks me how tall I am. Instead of answering in meters, I'll answer in feets, and I'll probably get 68% shorter in the process.

 

That analogy sure sounds amusing; it just doesn't have anything to do with the snowflake changes. Height is height, but conversion from one economic system to isn't an exact science; there's no clear way to do it that is completely fair. When East & West Germany reunified, the DDR Deutschemark had a variety of values compared to the BRD's, driven up & down by speculation. For the actual merger, someone had to decide on a specific conversion rate and it was going to end up being unfair to lots of people regardless of the figure. Make the rate too high and the economy would inflate due to the sudden influx of new marks untied to the old capitalist market forces. Too low and people in East Germany wouldn't be able to afford to live in their own homes.

 

Snowflake conversion involves a lot potential pitfalls, such as the pre-announcement TP prices, the ratios of value, the amounts stockpiled, and so on. Our personal feelings about what the rate should be aren't important; protecting the economy overall is.

[ThomasC.1056]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > Bonus question:

> > > * Do the devs think this is fair? They don't think that's a meaningful question: any conversion results in changes; some people win out with such changes and some do not.

> >

> > I'll remember that next time someone asks me how tall I am. Instead of answering in meters, I'll answer in feets, and I'll probably get 68% shorter in the process.

>

> That analogy sure sounds amusing; it just doesn't have anything to do with the snowflake changes. Height is height, but conversion from one economic system to isn't an exact science; there's no clear way to do it that is completely fair. When East & West Germany reunified, the DDR Deutschemark had a variety of values compared to the BRD's, driven up & down by speculation. For the actual merger, someone had to decide on a specific conversion rate and it was going to end up being unfair to lots of people regardless of the figure. Make the rate too high and the economy would inflate due to the sudden influx of new marks untied to the old capitalist market forces. Too low and people in East Germany wouldn't be able to afford to live in their own homes.

>

> Snowflake conversion involves a lot potential pitfalls, such as the pre-announcement TP prices, the ratios of value, the amounts stockpiled, and so on. Our personal feelings about what the rate should be aren't important; protecting the economy overall is.

 

It's not an economic system conversion, it's a currency conversion. Each tier of snowflakes has a multiple value of the previous one, which means that the obvious thing to do would be to keep the multiplication when you translate snowflakes to a new version. It's just as if you were switching 1 pfenning for 1 euro cent, but 1 euro for 32 pfennings, while simultaneously stating 1 euro = 100 euro cents. It makes no sense, even from an economical point of view.

 

I'm an exact scientist, so maybe I'm too cartesian to forsee the future, but I honestly can't see what harm to the economy a simple re-labeling of something with a 1:1 ratio including an inheritane in all the multiples could do.

[CaelestiaEmpyrea.2617]

So essentially, ANet decided to start off Wintersday by STEALING from players. This isn't a "conversion", it's a ripoff. Instead of being able to get 54 Diamond snowflakes with what I previously had I can only get 17! And the developers won't even tell anyone WHY this ripoff is occurring. Just a vague comment about the price of a new system.

 

What next? There's too much gold in the economy, let's take away 70 silver for every gold a player has? Then rename the coins "guilders" and say it's just the price of conversion?

[Pifil.5193]

> @"CaelestiaEmpyrea.2617" said:

> So essentially, ANet decided to start off Wintersday by STEALING from players. This isn't a "conversion", it's a ripoff. Instead of being able to get 54 Diamond snowflakes with what I previously had I can only get 17! And the developers won't even tell anyone WHY this ripoff is occurring. Just a vague comment about the price of a new system.

>

> What next? There's too much gold in the economy, let's take away 70 silver for every gold a player has? Then rename the coins "guilders" and say it's just the price of conversion?

 

Yep, Happy Holidays everyone, I hope that ~~ArenaNet~~the Grawnk don't steal too much of your stuff!

 

Gossamer Cloth too cheap? Don't worry! The introduction of Cossamer Gloth will soon solve that problem!

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > Bonus question:

> > > > * Do the devs think this is fair? They don't think that's a meaningful question: any conversion results in changes; some people win out with such changes and some do not.

> > >

> > > I'll remember that next time someone asks me how tall I am. Instead of answering in meters, I'll answer in feets, and I'll probably get 68% shorter in the process.

> >

> > That analogy sure sounds amusing; it just doesn't have anything to do with the snowflake changes. Height is height, but conversion from one economic system to isn't an exact science; there's no clear way to do it that is completely fair. When East & West Germany reunified, the DDR Deutschemark had a variety of values compared to the BRD's, driven up & down by speculation. For the actual merger, someone had to decide on a specific conversion rate and it was going to end up being unfair to lots of people regardless of the figure. Make the rate too high and the economy would inflate due to the sudden influx of new marks untied to the old capitalist market forces. Too low and people in East Germany wouldn't be able to afford to live in their own homes.

> >

> > Snowflake conversion involves a lot potential pitfalls, such as the pre-announcement TP prices, the ratios of value, the amounts stockpiled, and so on. Our personal feelings about what the rate should be aren't important; protecting the economy overall is.

>

> It's not an economic system conversion, it's a currency conversion. Each tier of snowflakes has a multiple value of the previous one, which means that the obvious thing to do would be to keep the multiplication when you translate snowflakes to a new version. It's just as if you were switching 1 pfenning for 1 euro cent, but 1 euro for 32 pfennings, while simultaneously stating 1 euro = 100 euro cents. It makes no sense, even from an economical point of view.

The old material/currency doesn't exist anymore, so the economics changed. It only doesn't make sense because you want things to work the way they did last week, but that doesn't allow for looking at the market holistically.

 

>

> I'm an exact scientist, so maybe I'm too cartesian to forsee the future, but I honestly can't see what harm to the economy a simple re-labeling of something with a 1:1 ratio including an inheritane in all the multiples could do.

 

The day before the patch, there were 16.5 million tinies on the TP and nearly 5.9 million pristines.

* Converting at the old rate: 205 Million flakes

* Converting at Youngblood's rate: 75 Million flakes

 

I hope you can see how that difference would make a huge impact on the economy and the sorts of rewards they could offer us.

 

The other way the could have done this is by sticking with the 10:1 rate for pristines and reducing the rate for tinies to 1:3 (i.e. one ordinary flake costs three tinies).

 

Regardless of what they chose, the value of all flakes spiked today, so everyone choosing to sell flakes is financially better off now than yesterday... and since the price is likely to drop down (normal post-festival market behavior), folks can buy up the flakes they need and still end up tucking some gold away.

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > Bonus question:

> > > > > * Do the devs think this is fair? They don't think that's a meaningful question: any conversion results in changes; some people win out with such changes and some do not.

> > > >

> > > > I'll remember that next time someone asks me how tall I am. Instead of answering in meters, I'll answer in feets, and I'll probably get 68% shorter in the process.

> > >

> > > That analogy sure sounds amusing; it just doesn't have anything to do with the snowflake changes. Height is height, but conversion from one economic system to isn't an exact science; there's no clear way to do it that is completely fair. When East & West Germany reunified, the DDR Deutschemark had a variety of values compared to the BRD's, driven up & down by speculation. For the actual merger, someone had to decide on a specific conversion rate and it was going to end up being unfair to lots of people regardless of the figure. Make the rate too high and the economy would inflate due to the sudden influx of new marks untied to the old capitalist market forces. Too low and people in East Germany wouldn't be able to afford to live in their own homes.

> > >

> > > Snowflake conversion involves a lot potential pitfalls, such as the pre-announcement TP prices, the ratios of value, the amounts stockpiled, and so on. Our personal feelings about what the rate should be aren't important; protecting the economy overall is.

> >

> > It's not an economic system conversion, it's a currency conversion. Each tier of snowflakes has a multiple value of the previous one, which means that the obvious thing to do would be to keep the multiplication when you translate snowflakes to a new version. It's just as if you were switching 1 pfenning for 1 euro cent, but 1 euro for 32 pfennings, while simultaneously stating 1 euro = 100 euro cents. It makes no sense, even from an economical point of view.

> The old material/currency doesn't exist anymore, so the economics changed. It only doesn't make sense because you want things to work the way they did last week, but that doesn't allow for looking at the market holistically.

>

> >

> > I'm an exact scientist, so maybe I'm too cartesian to forsee the future, but I honestly can't see what harm to the economy a simple re-labeling of something with a 1:1 ratio including an inheritane in all the multiples could do.

>

> The day before the patch, there were 16.5 million tinies on the TP and nearly 5.9 million pristines.

> * Converting at the old rate: 205 Million flakes

> * Converting at Youngblood's rate: 75 Million flakes

>

> I hope you can see how that difference would make a huge impact on the economy and the sorts of rewards they could offer us.

>

> The other way the could have done this is by sticking with the 10:1 rate for pristines and reducing the rate for tinies to 1:3 (i.e. one ordinary flake costs three tinies).

>

> Regardless of what they chose, the value of all flakes spiked today, so everyone choosing to sell flakes is financially better off now than yesterday... and since the price is likely to drop down (normal post-festival market behavior), folks can buy up the flakes they need and still end up tucking some gold away.

>

 

So I should sell my higher tier snowflakes to get some profit of it from suckers who dont read the forum is what your saying?

Edit

And about your there is no way to be fair when converting to the new currency, really not like they could have allowed everyone to deconstruct every kind of snowflake down to tiny to get the exact same anmunt as everyone else.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > > Bonus question:

> > > > > > * Do the devs think this is fair? They don't think that's a meaningful question: any conversion results in changes; some people win out with such changes and some do not.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll remember that next time someone asks me how tall I am. Instead of answering in meters, I'll answer in feets, and I'll probably get 68% shorter in the process.

> > > >

> > > > That analogy sure sounds amusing; it just doesn't have anything to do with the snowflake changes. Height is height, but conversion from one economic system to isn't an exact science; there's no clear way to do it that is completely fair. When East & West Germany reunified, the DDR Deutschemark had a variety of values compared to the BRD's, driven up & down by speculation. For the actual merger, someone had to decide on a specific conversion rate and it was going to end up being unfair to lots of people regardless of the figure. Make the rate too high and the economy would inflate due to the sudden influx of new marks untied to the old capitalist market forces. Too low and people in East Germany wouldn't be able to afford to live in their own homes.

> > > >

> > > > Snowflake conversion involves a lot potential pitfalls, such as the pre-announcement TP prices, the ratios of value, the amounts stockpiled, and so on. Our personal feelings about what the rate should be aren't important; protecting the economy overall is.

> > >

> > > It's not an economic system conversion, it's a currency conversion. Each tier of snowflakes has a multiple value of the previous one, which means that the obvious thing to do would be to keep the multiplication when you translate snowflakes to a new version. It's just as if you were switching 1 pfenning for 1 euro cent, but 1 euro for 32 pfennings, while simultaneously stating 1 euro = 100 euro cents. It makes no sense, even from an economical point of view.

> > The old material/currency doesn't exist anymore, so the economics changed. It only doesn't make sense because you want things to work the way they did last week, but that doesn't allow for looking at the market holistically.

> >

> > >

> > > I'm an exact scientist, so maybe I'm too cartesian to forsee the future, but I honestly can't see what harm to the economy a simple re-labeling of something with a 1:1 ratio including an inheritane in all the multiples could do.

> >

> > The day before the patch, there were 16.5 million tinies on the TP and nearly 5.9 million pristines.

> > * Converting at the old rate: 205 Million flakes

> > * Converting at Youngblood's rate: 75 Million flakes

> >

> > I hope you can see how that difference would make a huge impact on the economy and the sorts of rewards they could offer us.

> >

> > The other way the could have done this is by sticking with the 10:1 rate for pristines and reducing the rate for tinies to 1:3 (i.e. one ordinary flake costs three tinies).

> >

> > Regardless of what they chose, the value of all flakes spiked today, so everyone choosing to sell flakes is financially better off now than yesterday... and since the price is likely to drop down (normal post-festival market behavior), folks can buy up the flakes they need and still end up tucking some gold away.

> >

>

> So I should sell my higher tier snowflakes to get some profit of it from suckers who dont read the forum is what your saying?

No, that's nothing close to what I said. Someone said that they had less value as a result of the conversion and the math says otherwise. The price went up because people have a use for the new flakes that they didn't for the old ones, not because people did or did not read the patch notes. But the point is: the price went up. And it did so for every type of flake; it just didn't go up as much for pristines as it did for tinies.

 

> Edit

> And about your there is no way to be fair when converting to the new currency, really not like they could have allowed everyone to deconstruct every kind of snowflake down to tiny to get the exact same anmunt as everyone else.

They could have done that, but that would have been more work (for them and for us) than just giving 32 ordinary flakes per pristine; there's no mathematical difference. Worse, we would have ended up with nearly triple the amount of ordinary snowflakes, which would have made everything worthless. This way, the price of all the old flakes went up.

 

 

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

Can someone tell me how to do the conversions?

The wiki is not helping.

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> Can someone tell me how to do the conversions?

> The wiki is not helping.

 

If you have old snowflakes of any tier in your inventory, either doubleclick them or rightclick->consume all to convert them into new snowflakes.

 

You can also talk to the charity corps seraph vendor, his last tab is the snowflake exchange, where you can exchange them in bulk, if you have more than 1 stack of any of the old flakes.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > Can someone tell me how to do the conversions?

> > The wiki is not helping.

>

> If you have old snowflakes of any tier in your inventory, either doubleclick them or rightclick->consume all to convert them into new snowflakes.

>

> You can also talk to the charity corps seraph vendor, his last tab is the snowflake exchange, where you can exchange them in bulk, if you have more than 1 stack of any of the old flakes.

 

Wait so those "old" ones like tiny/unique/etc doesn't work no more?

 

If so... how do I make some of those recipes then that's on the wiki that list the old ones and not the new ones?

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > Can someone tell me how to do the conversions?

> > > The wiki is not helping.

> >

> > If you have old snowflakes of any tier in your inventory, either doubleclick them or rightclick->consume all to convert them into new snowflakes.

> >

> > You can also talk to the charity corps seraph vendor, his last tab is the snowflake exchange, where you can exchange them in bulk, if you have more than 1 stack of any of the old flakes.

>

> Wait so those "old" ones like tiny/unique/etc doesn't work no more?

>

> If so... how do I make some of those recipes then that's on the wiki that list the old ones and not the new ones?

 

all recipes that used the old tiered snowflakes now use the new snowflakes in varying quantities. The wiki is maintained by players, so it usually takes a couple of days after a big patch to be up to date with info like that.

[Solvar.7953]

If one thinks that the tiny snowflake is in fact overvalued (should really be 2 tiny = 1 new), then all the values for the other snowflakes start to become more reasonable (in fact, some end up coming out better). The pristine are still undervalues, at 10 vs 16. Arguably, the real flow here is that it should have taken 2 tiny to get 1 new one.