What if scourge shades could be cc'd and killed

[Flauvious.6195]

Renegade gets to spend energy and it's ability to use weapon skills to put out char summons which die in seconds through ambient damage without even being focused. Even before they die they are cc'd by random aoe effects and do absolutely nothing. This is considered balanced, so why can't we kill and cc scourge shades in the same way?

 

You know, for counterplay.

[Ragion.2831]

Revenant isnt balanced with the same logic as other classes.

[Crinn.7864]

It would mean basically nothing. You forget that the Scourge themselves cast F skills and shade attacks from their own position in addition to the position of shades. In PvP shades are not really used for much beyond the on-drop corrupt. If a Scourge really wants to kill someone they just run to within 300 and take advantage of the point-blank cleave. This is a far more effective method of attacking people than trying to get a opponent to stay in a immobile circle.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> Renegade gets to spend energy and it's ability to use weapon skills to put out char summons which die in seconds through ambient damage without even being focused. Even before they die they are cc'd by random aoe effects and do absolutely nothing. This is considered balanced, so why can't we kill and cc scourge shades in the same way?

>

> You know, for counterplay.

 

You ask this as though Kalla isn't the weakest legend Revenants have and in need of buffs. Personally, I think Kalla spirits should have unstrippable Stability (like Earth Elementals in PvE). Can still be killed, but not totally neutralized by the AoE CC.

[ArthurDent.9538]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> It would mean basically nothing. You forget that the Scourge themselves cast F skills and shade attacks from their own position in addition to the position of shades. In PvP shades are not really used for much beyond the on-drop corrupt. If a Scourge really wants to kill someone they just run to within 300 and take advantage of the point-blank cleave. This is a far more effective method of attacking people than trying to get a opponent to stay in a immobile circle.

 

 

Would really like to see that entire mechanic removed or at least make it require a new grand-master trait so it can't be combo'd with savant. Would make shade placement much more meaningful and allow melee builds some counter-play by potentially forcing the scourge out of the shades where there would be actual vulnerability windows where the scourge can't unleash massive instant cast counter pressure. It might be a pretty harsh nerf but even if it completely removes scourge from the meta it would increase spec diversity given how many things are completely shut down by scourge spam and it would be interesting to see how non overpowered scourge would play in the meta since it has been op since beta. Also it wouldn't do anything to hurt pve dps so that crowd won't be too upset as long as they are reasonable.

[Nilkemia.8507]

Another "nerf Scourge" thread, this time thinly disguised.

Why not make this apply to all other AoEs then?

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

AoE deals damage to AoE

 

*mind blown

[Morwath.9817]

Ooo, if you could damage Shades, then Firebrand could heal them, wooo-hooo!

[narcx.3570]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> Ooo, if you could damage Shades, then Firebrand could heal them, wooo-hooo!

 

I certainly miss when necros/reapers would use their shroud and then miss out on all of their supports' sweet heals.

[Morwath.9817]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > Ooo, if you could damage Shades, then Firebrand could heal them, wooo-hooo!

>

> I certainly miss when necros/reapers would use their shroud and then miss out on all of their supports' sweet heals.

 

Honestly? Quaggan was/is rather annoyed when hes on Firebrand or Druid and Reaper goes Shroud right after Quaggan goes Tome / Celestial Avatar.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > @"narcx.3570" said:

> > > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > Ooo, if you could damage Shades, then Firebrand could heal them, wooo-hooo!

> >

> > I certainly miss when necros/reapers would use their shroud and then miss out on all of their supports' sweet heals.

>

> Honestly? Quaggan was/is rather annoyed when hes on Firebrand or Druid and Reaper goes Shroud right after Quaggan goes Tome / Celestial Avatar.

 

Oh, I should note that I meant that from the PoV of somebody who's killing said Reaper/Necro.

[otto.5684]

Let’s not popularize fail designs. Kalla’s summon warband concept should be burnt with fire and never to be heard off again.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

Wouldn't change much because all the instacast effects happen around the necro anyway. The levels of bullshit around what makes scourge cancer are too great.

[Vagrant.7206]

Welcome to the engineer turret problem. We've been here since launch.

[Flauvious.6195]

> @"Nilkemia.8507" said:

> Another "nerf Scourge" thread, this time thinly disguised.

> Why not make this apply to all other AoEs then?

 

Thinly disguised? There is no disguise here, thin or otherwise. I thought it was pretty clearly a nerf scourge thread. These threads need to and will continue to be made constantly, because scourge needs to be nerfed.

 

Although it's funny that me suggesting making something work like renegade is considered a nerf. Really says something about the garbage dump that is renegade.

 

But people in this thread are right, this wouldn't really change much. The REAL nerf we need is for shade skills to not cast around both the necro and the shade. You know, inject some meaningful decision-making into the button mashing that is scourging. Do I put my shade at range to melt those poor souls over there, or do I keep it next to me so that I'm invulnerable to melee? Hmm, decision making.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

And while they're at it give shade skills cast times. Core necro and reaper would also be OP if you could use all their skills at the same time.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> Wouldn't change much because all the instacast effects happen around the necro anyway. The levels of kitten around what makes scourge cancer are too great.

 

^^this.

They would have to rework effect on shades and probably put cast times on those.

[Nilkemia.8507]

> @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> > @"Nilkemia.8507" said:

> > Another "nerf Scourge" thread, this time thinly disguised.

> > Why not make this apply to all other AoEs then?

>

> Thinly disguised? There is no disguise here, thin or otherwise. I thought it was pretty clearly a nerf scourge thread. These threads need to and will continue to be made constantly, because scourge needs to be nerfed.

>

Demands Scourge be nerfed, missing/forgeting/ignoring the other broken PoF specs. (especially Mirage, which is arguably worse to fight.)

> Although it's funny that me suggesting making something work like renegade is considered a nerf. Really says something about the garbage dump that is renegade.

>

Incorrect. If you were suggesting to make renegade work, you'd have suggested a way to buff or change these summons to make them more useful, not suggest nerfing a different profession.

> But people in this thread are right, this wouldn't really change much. The REAL nerf we need is for shade skills to not cast around both the necro and the shade. You know, inject some meaningful decision-making into the button mashing that is scourging. Do I put my shade at range to melt those poor souls over there, or do I keep it next to me so that I'm invulnerable to melee? Hmm, decision making.

 

To melt some poor souls, they need the life force to do it first, and someone spamming their shade skills off cooldown is someone who'll be out of life force fast. And having the shade around them doesn't protect them from melee either, just means whoever tries that has to be ready for it. Firebrands can mitigate or outheal it depending on their build, Spellbreakers can get free full counters off of that (especially the F5), and most others can simply stay out/away and shoot them.

 

The only time Scourge is really dangerous is if they manage to get full life force and get the drop on you, if there are two of them, or if there's someone else keeping them alive. Otherwise, they're just as much a free kill as they were before. Ranged still counters them, CC-locking counters them, focusing counters them (even more so with less defense, the shrouds aren't good defenses and barriers even less so) , and simply running off elsewhere counters them.

 

I guess what you really want is for another specialization to be as useless as the renegade.

 

[Cynz.9437]

@Nilkemia.8507

I would like to point out that same scourges cry rivers and ask for nerfs when someone does pick ranged spec in attempt to counter them.

[Nilkemia.8507]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> @Nilkemia.8507

> I would like to point out that same scourges cry rivers and ask for nerfs when someone does pick ranged spec in attempt to counter them.

What they should be asking for is better options to deal with that, then. Then again, considering all they were given was a nearly worthless utility and a reaper shoud leap, seems ArenaNet couldn't care less either. And, with nearly everyone else calling for their immediate nerfing now (while usually forgetting a few other broken specs), I can't blame them too much. At least one of those ranged specs (Deadeye, the only one with decent rifle skills) deserves it too.

[Flauvious.6195]

> @"Nilkemia.8507" said:

 

> Demands Scourge be nerfed, missing/forgeting/ignoring the other broken PoF specs. (especially Mirage, which is arguably worse to fight.)

 

Lol where you been, I've been complaining about every pof spec since the damn thing came out. They're all bonkers. Why is scourge complained the most? Well, as dumb as mirage is, there's a crucial difference between mirage and scourge: there is not a mirage in every one of my games. There are 4 scourges nearly every game.

 

 

> Incorrect. If you were suggesting to make renegade work, you'd have suggested a way to buff or change these summons to make them more useful, not suggest nerfing a different profession.

 

I wasn't suggesting a way to make it work, plenty of those threads in revenant sub. I was complaining about how bad one elite can be while another has a similar mechanic that's just better in every way.

 

 

> To melt some poor souls, they need the life force to do it first, and someone spamming their shade skills off cooldown is someone who'll be out of life force fast. And having the shade around them doesn't protect them from melee either, just means whoever tries that has to be ready for it. Firebrands can mitigate or outheal it depending on their build, Spellbreakers can get free full counters off of that (especially the F5), and most others can simply stay out/away and shoot them.

>

Yea, and those firebrand outhealing everything aren't doing any damage, and those spellbreakers can get their resistance corrupted, get weakened and do nothing. you're talking like scourge just has no ability to handle any of those. Can "most others" really just stay out of the way shoot them? Is that really healthy design, here's a class that you have to stay far away from at all times, unless you're a bunker firebrand?

> The only time Scourge is really dangerous is if they manage to get full life force and get the drop on you, if there are two of them, or if there's someone else keeping them alive. Otherwise, they're just as much a free kill as they were before. Ranged still counters them, CC-locking counters them, focusing counters them (even more so with less defense, the shrouds aren't good defenses and barriers even less so) , and simply running off elsewhere counters them.

>

You're describing things that counter anything. Who doesn't "cc-locking" counter? Focusing? Focusing counters them? Once again, is that really good design, when a spec is so over the top that you are required to focus them immediately all the time, deadeye sniping you from the roof be damned?

> I guess what you really want is for another specialization to be as useless as the renegade.

>

The mental gymnastics necro players jump through to try and justify the scourge man...

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> And while they're at it give shade skills cast times. Core necro and reaper would also be OP if you could use all their skills at the same time.

 

Actually that is not a bad idea. I would rather let scourges have their crazy condi application, that is a strong trait that they need. But if we had a nice follow-up animation to know when to dodge or drop blind. That wouldn't be a direct nerf but would give a reasonable counterplay to condispam.

On the other hand, maybe it's just my latency, but I think that necro staff animations are kind of weird. It feels like the moment a character starts to raise their hand, the symbol is already on the ground, triggered if someone is already on the same spot as the mark. By the time an enemy player gets hit by the mark, necro ends the animation.

Sometimes it's hard to react and dodge the marks if they take effect in the very instant a hand movement begins (it should once it ends). But I would also say that it's just a minor thing that doesn't have to be changed.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

The main issue with putting cast times on the Shade skills is that 3/4 of those absolutely need to be instant cast for the Scourge to have any defense. Only the F2 can actually still be usable with a cast time.

 

F5, I could see a slight change to. Increase total time by 1 second, but damage/condition pulses don't happen until 1 second after the cast. Barrier still must be immediate, though.

[JayAction.9056]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Let’s not popularize fail designs. Kalla’s summon warband concept should be burnt with fire and never to be heard off again.

 

How did it make it live is what's confusing me.

 

Literally like 5 minutes with it and you can see it doesn't work vs a person and still fails vs the computer in cases where it is decent.

 

I'm convinced it was made bad on purpose. All of renegade, shortbow and legend.

 

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> The main issue with putting cast times on the Shade skills is that 3/4 of those absolutely need to be instant cast for the Scourge to have any defense. Only the F2 can actually still be usable with a cast time.

>

> F5, I could see a slight change to. Increase total time by 1 second, but damage/condition pulses don't happen until 1 second after the cast. Barrier still must be immediate, though.

 

None of them need to be instant. Necro has never had or needed instant cast fears, corrupts, or barriers, and if that instant cast AoE corruption is so important then you can spec into Spiteful Spirit.