Please remove Vindicators from fractals.

[IseeU.4519]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

 

>

> Learn to play issue or git gud. Uncategorized is one of the easiest fractals available atm. If your group is not skilled enough to pass the platforms and unwilling to adapt via short term changes to utilities and/or traits, that's on you.

>

 

It's just an example of the random nature of the instabilities which are now just silly with vindicators, thus showing how even very experienced players can get caught somewhat unfairly. The bombs can cover all nearby platforms? You didn't realise this? Git gud right? Try some critical thinking.

 

 

 

[IseeU.4519]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

 

> You can jump back and forth on these platforms. There is plenty of time to react after seeing the traces and always avoid to get hit by an attack from Horrik. Sounds more like a cheap excuse to me.

> Also, there are enough groups without asking for a druid - really many ! And if such a group is out of stock you can easily open an own lfg. Yeah, I know that's a GW2 disease, most of the people just sitting there waiting for the right lfg to pop up. :innocent:

 

>

> And I see constantly players (also some with 150 KP+ from 100 CM) not playing the mechanics correctly in this fractal and either run several times to death during the first part of the fractal or fail to position at Amala. It's not hard if you get the mechanics right but the average GW2 player - even a lot of the T4 crowd - just smashes buttons or actually 11111 and hope that the next encounter will be deleted in that way.

>

It was one example. And no, pending on which platforms are covered you don't have enough time.

 

Also, your second statement just sounds like an outright lie. 150kp 100cm peeps running to death? Yeah, that sounds like a big whopper alright or a gross exaggeration.

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"IseeU.4519" said:

> > It was one example. And no, pending on which platforms are covered you don't have enough time.

>

> Yes, you have enough time because Mai Trin is shouting it out loud that Horrik has to shoot the cannons. So, you should be aware of the bombardement beforehand and there are clear indicators (circles) for the impacts. It's not even the case that every tile will be covered during this bombardement since it hits randomly. In case you haven't known, you can jump back and forth more than one platform and you don't need to kill every harpy before you go past it.

>

> > Also, your second statement just sounds like an outright lie. 150kp 100cm peeps running to death? Yeah, that sounds like a big whopper alright or a gross exaggeration.

>

> Nah, no exaggeration or big deal: Players still are not familiar with this fractal and have learned it by heart. Also, there isn't a solid established tactic yet because - who would have thought that - the fractal is new. If I run with a static via discord we call things out like the big wave from Amala or the need for healing etc. etc. You won't find this in a pug and it's obvious that players are struggling with a new fractal.

> I have seen CM pugs doing it quite good but also seen pugs that were rushing the first part several times and wiped miserably over and over again finally clearing the first trash mobs and I also finished Amala with 3 or 4 players alive because someone was definitely not performing well. Her actions are well indicated and the more often you fight her the easier it gets. Think about the archdiviner in cliffside. When it was revamped it was a nightmare to run the highest level in the 90s with pugs and even today my pug wiped (2 players dead before 50%!!!) and we had to restart. In the end it's way more a thing of getting used to it and a learn the encounter by heart. I mean look at MAMA in 99CM, people are wiping there with all 5 players while it was shown that you can solo her with offensive gear.

[Vinceman.4572]

Sry, double post.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"IseeU.4519" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> >

> > Learn to play issue or git gud. Uncategorized is one of the easiest fractals available atm. If your group is not skilled enough to pass the platforms and unwilling to adapt via short term changes to utilities and/or traits, that's on you.

> >

>

> It's just an example of the random nature of the instabilities which are now just silly with vindicators, thus showing how even very experienced players can get caught somewhat unfairly. The bombs can cover all nearby platforms? You didn't realise this? Git gud right? Try some critical thinking.

> > @"IseeU.4519" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> >

> > Learn to play issue or git gud. Uncategorized is one of the easiest fractals available atm. If your group is not skilled enough to pass the platforms and unwilling to adapt via short term changes to utilities and/or traits, that's on you.

> >

>

> It's just an example of the random nature of the instabilities which are now just silly with vindicators, thus showing how even very experienced players can get caught somewhat unfairly. The bombs can cover all nearby platforms? You didn't realise this? Git gud right? Try some critical thinking.

>

>

>

 

I'm well aware the bombs cover multiple platforms. There is enough time to either:

 

- get out of the way

- tank through with reflects, stability and healing and/or shroud/barrier

- stealth past the harpies and portal

 

Your team not being skilled enough to manage this is exactly what get good means. Has very little to do with critical thinking on my part, but thanks for the toxicity.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > This instability doesn't affect people playing well at all.

> > Yes, that's the idea. It encourages people to learn the mechanics better rather than blindly following a build because it's been declared "meta."

> Generally "not dying" is good enough benefit to that end.

>

> Comebacks are already something that is hard to do. Making them even harder to pull off does not encourage people - quite the opposite.

>

 

Comebacks in gw2 are far easier than in other games since resses are unlimited.

[Turin.6921]

Annoying as hell and frustrating but a really cool instability. Really drives you to actually get good and not be a rally bot. I think it is a pretty cool instability, no matter how many times i shout t them at the screen...

 

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> Vindicators are working exactly as we hoped! I do wonder what would happen if the downed player could rally off them. We want to avoid instabilities that make it easier, but a little give and take might be cool.

 

Thats a nice idea...Maybe being able to rally might be a bit too much of a give. But maybe a dead vindicator can give a small party buff. Just like a small push for a few seconds...

[Vyrulisse.1246]

Boring, uncreative mechanic. All the posters trying to show how good they are by saying how much they love them were to be expected but you cannot ignore the fact that they are stale and really add nothing unique.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> Boring, uncreative mechanic. All the posters trying to show how good they are by saying how much they love them were to be expected but you cannot ignore the fact that they are stale and really add nothing unique.

 

I'm actually not all that good and that's why I like this mechanic: it forces me to think about how to play better. And then, once having done so, I'm rewarded by not having to deal with as many instabilities. In contrast, random conditions is boring (for me) because it means adjusting a couple of skills/traits/gear and that's it; you can't pretend it's not there, but neither does it matter all that much. Toxic trails can sometimes be avoided by better playing, but some foes move around regardless of what the team does.

 

It's really tricky to come up with mechanics that are going to be universally appreciated. I think the best ANet can hope for is to create several kinds of instabilities, some of which reward better game play, some of which are designed to interfere with meta-strategies, and some of which are just silly (e.g. last laugh).

[Rennie.6750]

> @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> Boring, uncreative mechanic. All the posters trying to show how good they are by saying how much they love them were to be expected but you cannot ignore the fact that they are stale and really add nothing unique.

 

In the dev's defence, creating a full set of interesting and equally fun anomalies that work for everyone isn't really trivial. Some are going to be better than others, and a few are probably really bad, but I'm sure that if you go to ANet's office with 10 new awesome anomalies everyone is going to love, they're going to consider offering you a job. =)

 

I don't disagree that vindicators are probably not among the best they got, but they do need variety.

[Turin.6921]

> @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> Boring, uncreative mechanic. All the posters trying to show how good they are by saying how much they love them were to be expected but you cannot ignore the fact that they are stale and really add nothing unique.

 

It might be a shocking proposal but there is always the chance that when someone says that he loves sth it is not because he wants to show-off but maybe, just maybe, he actually likes it.

 

It is really arrogant and uncommunity-like to present your opinion as objective fact while invalidating other people's opposite opinion as fake.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > Boring, uncreative mechanic. All the posters trying to show how good they are by saying how much they love them were to be expected but you cannot ignore the fact that they are stale and really add nothing unique.

>

> It might be a shocking proposal but there is always the chance that when someone says that he loves sth it is not because he wants to show-off but maybe, just maybe, he actually likes it.

Fun fact, most of the people that claimed they love the mechanics most probably aren't affected by it at all.

 

 

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> I kinda like the whole idea behind the Vindicator, but there's a bit duality as well ... You get punished for playing recklessly or going toooo glass cannony, but at the same time: you fix the problem (the spawning of the vindicator) with DAMAGEEEEEEE ... which probably got you in this situation in the first place ... A bit dual to me.

> What about making the Vindicator exceptionally vulnerable to CC and obviously defensive mechanics (like healing/blocking/dodging/etc.) as well, but make it stronger the more damage it receives. E.g. the vindicator dissing out more damage itself and gaining more toughness making it even harder to kill the more damage it receives. Obviously it should then have some sort of a timer on it or killing it can only be done by CC'ing it or something ...

 

You've got a point. Maybe they should be a bit like those annoying chak that die when your break their bar, but without being immune to damage. So you could kill them with damage if you do not have CC, but breaking their bar would be much faster, maybe killing them instantly, or making them extremely vulnerable to any damage.

[Lavyros.6258]

> @"TwilightSoul.9048" said:

 

> * The already mentioned Social Awkwardness

> * Afflicted (Although I'd prefer a little fewer conditions but we get them constantly through a poison cloud or something that fills the entire fractal)

 

SA is the worse instability in game atm, it was created so ppl wouldn't stack in fractals behind cornerc, etc. It didn't work. The only way to split ppl is by designing good encounters. But it's bad not cause it's awfull and doesn't do what it intended, it's bad cause it never explained properly ingame, 90% of pugs don't know how it works. Afflicted is just plainly bad, it doesn't change uproach atall, especially for meta group, cause news splash, meta comp has druid.

I'm not going to comment on rest, you clearly don't understand what 'meta' even means.

[Jason Reynolds.4297]

We're looking at some ways to ease of the snowball nature of the Vindicators. We do like them as an Instability, but it is silly easy to get wiped out by them because one player went downed on accident. One change we are looking at is to allow players to rally when killing a Vindicator (as Ben mentioned). It would keep Vindicators as a threat that need to be dealt with, but remove the need to additionally revive the downed player(s).

[Samnang.1879]

same ole pattern

anet releases challenge content

players complain on forum

nerf incoming

 

i wish they would just stick to it. but at this point any comment that opposes the nerf change is useless

[CedarDog.9723]

Aside from the Mistlock Instabilities in fractals, they should make the mists leak into the normal world. I'd LOVE to see Fractal Vindicators ooo...or social awkwardness spawn at world events like Tequatl, etc. :)

[Kain Francois.4328]

> @"Jason Reynolds.4297" said:

> We're looking at some ways to ease of the snowball nature of the Vindicators. We do like them as an Instability, but it is silly easy to get wiped out by them because one player went downed on accident. One change we are looking at is to allow players to rally when killing a Vindicator (as Ben mentioned). It would keep Vindicators as a threat that need to be dealt with, but remove the need to additionally revive the downed player(s).

 

Why not give Vindicators a more purity of purpose? If you want them to be additional enemies that teams have to deal with, then simply make them make them additional enemies that players have to deal with.

 

Change the instability so bosses spawn them at specific intervals.

 

I prefer instabilities that make the level design harder, rather than debuffs the players.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > @"Jason Reynolds.4297" said:

> > We're looking at some ways to ease of the snowball nature of the Vindicators. We do like them as an Instability, but it is silly easy to get wiped out by them because one player went downed on accident. One change we are looking at is to allow players to rally when killing a Vindicator (as Ben mentioned). It would keep Vindicators as a threat that need to be dealt with, but remove the need to additionally revive the downed player(s).

>

> Why not give Vindicators a more purity of purpose? If you want them to be additional enemies that teams have to deal with, then simply make them make them additional enemies that players have to deal with.

>

> Change the instability so bosses spawn them at specific intervals.

>

> I prefer instabilities that make the level design harder, rather than debuffs the players.

 

If you don't die you don't have problems. Also it's actually better than avengers for mesmers, for example.

[Takoyakii.2146]

> @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > @"Jason Reynolds.4297" said:

> > We're looking at some ways to ease of the snowball nature of the Vindicators. We do like them as an Instability, but it is silly easy to get wiped out by them because one player went downed on accident. One change we are looking at is to allow players to rally when killing a Vindicator (as Ben mentioned). It would keep Vindicators as a threat that need to be dealt with, but remove the need to additionally revive the downed player(s).

>

> Why not give Vindicators a more purity of purpose? If you want them to be additional enemies that teams have to deal with, then simply make them make them additional enemies that players have to deal with.

>

> Change the instability so bosses spawn them at specific intervals.

>

> I prefer instabilities that make the level design harder, rather than debuffs the players.

 

We already have mist convergence for that though ..

 

Also it's not like someone trip on lava and down. Vindi spawn and your group is done for. If the party care a bit about downed people. Vindicator can be easily dealt with. Interrupt 100 blade +blind or stun it and res people up. It's only snowball when 2-3 people go down all at once which shouldn't happen if people play properly.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > Boring, uncreative mechanic. All the posters trying to show how good they are by saying how much they love them were to be expected but you cannot ignore the fact that they are stale and really add nothing unique.

> >

> > It might be a shocking proposal but there is always the chance that when someone says that he loves sth it is not because he wants to show-off but maybe, just maybe, he actually likes it.

> Fun fact, most of the people that claimed they love the mechanics most probably aren't affected by it at all.

>

>

 

I loved getting my ass handed to me when i failed and the dud spawned it made me realise that i needed to do better :)

[zealex.9410]

> @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > @"Jason Reynolds.4297" said:

> > We're looking at some ways to ease of the snowball nature of the Vindicators. We do like them as an Instability, but it is silly easy to get wiped out by them because one player went downed on accident. One change we are looking at is to allow players to rally when killing a Vindicator (as Ben mentioned). It would keep Vindicators as a threat that need to be dealt with, but remove the need to additionally revive the downed player(s).

>

> Why not give Vindicators a more purity of purpose? If you want them to be additional enemies that teams have to deal with, then simply make them make them additional enemies that players have to deal with.

>

> Change the instability so bosses spawn them at specific intervals.

>

> I prefer instabilities that make the level design harder, rather than debuffs the players.

 

The have the purest of purpose. To make ressing players more tactical and i love it.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > Boring, uncreative mechanic. All the posters trying to show how good they are by saying how much they love them were to be expected but you cannot ignore the fact that they are stale and really add nothing unique.

> >

> > It might be a shocking proposal but there is always the chance that when someone says that he loves sth it is not because he wants to show-off but maybe, just maybe, he actually likes it.

> Fun fact, most of the people that claimed they love the mechanics most probably aren't affected by it at all.

>

>

 

Fun fact, you have no way of proving that. I mostly pug my t4 fotm (maybe 1 guildy with me); almost always my ranger but swapping between power, condi and heal druid/sb. I have to deal with those vindicators all the time and I like the mechanic. Break bars made blinds, weakness and short duration CC useless in a lot of fights but the vindicators reward people for adjusting their builds as necessary. As someone that likes messing with builds and planning/swapping utilities around, vindicators add another level of enjoyment for me in both build craft and dynamic oh shit moments that you can recover from.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > I've had some experience with vindicators, and currently the biggest problem is that PUGs completely ignore vindicators.

> >

> > Vinds are not tough. They don't have much health, and they have no special immunities. They are glass cannons, and as such they are priority 1 enemies. If a player goes down, what everyone _should_ do is quickly focus down the Vind then rez the player. What everybody does is ignore the Vind and continue on as normal. This causes the vind to quickly kill the downed player, then systematically hunt down and kill every other player one by one, until there's an army of Vinds chasing one guy.

> >

> > Why do pugs ignore them? I don't know.

> You're expecting of those pugs a level of skill and organization they obviously don't have - because if they had it, they wouldn't be getting downed in the first place.

>

 

 

There is this thing called "call target." I believe the default is ctrl+T. Use it and become the organization that pugs need. Then cc/blind and burst them down. If you're playing a good build, you don't need them to help you. If not, not every pug I play with responds to it but you only need 1 or 2 and there is always someone that does.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Fun fact, most of the people that claimed they love the mechanics most probably aren't affected by it at all.

> >

> Fun fact, you have no way of proving that.

That's what i've got from reading this thread. Assuming of course that the posters were saying the truth (that's where the "most probably" came from). Your personal experiences had nothing to do with it, seeing as you've posted in this thread only _after_ me.