A lot of classes and builds are not wanted in parties/squads

[Leo G.4501]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Dude, i'm a 36 year old with a full time job, and i can get better and improve. If other people can't is because they didn't try. And that's the whole problem here.. Most people complaining about this stopped giving a kitten, settled for the lowest common denominator, and now expect everyone else to bow to their mediocrity.

 

I suggest you look who you were quoting. The person you're directing advice to isn't expecting everyone else to bow or suggesting some change enforced. What you're saying is akin to offering advice to maximize profits for your advertisement firm to a rancher who is perfectly content with their trade, earnings and focusing on raising a family. They're completely different and viable paths...just like GW2 has different viable options, be that speed runs, newb clears, relaxed runs, etc.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>But if you can't put in the effort then don't blame others for not wanting your company in that content. Simple as that.

> You're not playing alone, and other players aren't your servants to carry you through the content. You say its unfun for you to put in the effort to improve your gameplay. I can understand that. But for me it's also unfun to wipe 5 times on a fractal because the ele is doing little more damage than the Magi Druid and dying 300 times in the process because he's tanking when he shouldn't.

> I don't impose on how you play, but somehow a lot of people seem to think they should impose how they play onto others.

 

But you are imposing on how people should play, at least moreso than me imposing anything. It's the reason I don't bother with fractals anymore, not because I couldn't get good but because of drama of people complaining how others don't comply, the rage quits and premadonas.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > 2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

> >

> > Actually, Cele Ele can have 2k Power in Fire attunement, 2k Toughness in Earth and 45% crit all the time (unbuffed) with a Signet build and Sigil of Accuracy. :D Source: my Cele Ele. Just saying for fun, not trying to argue or anything. x) And sure, it's still not "optimal" (for damage) but it's hella fun!

> > For some reason I really hate dying in games... I can't explain why but I find it embarassing when my character begs for help on the ground! Cele builds make me invincible, that's why I love them so much. Also, I 'm quite clumsy, I honestly can't handle glass cannon builds, lol.

>

> Not both at once. So, it's useless. And it's a single very niche case where you had to sacrifice better traits for that.

> If you can't play a glass cannon, why the hell are you playing Ele? I rarely die with necro or Ranger (Except falls). You don't see people playing Zerker ele or whatever dying all the time either. You just need to play better.

> Cele stats is a crutch that you're using to keep your play-style stale and under-performing. You're holding yourself back from actually enjoying the game, the accomplishment of mastering a class because you're using the most useless stat combo outside of pvp. Celestial isn't even a tanky stat... It's just the middle of the road stat that isn't one thing or the other... And like a wise man once said:

>

>

>

 

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > 2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

> > >

> > > Actually, Cele Ele can have 2k Power in Fire attunement, 2k Toughness in Earth and 45% crit all the time (unbuffed) with a Signet build and Sigil of Accuracy. :D Source: my Cele Ele. Just saying for fun, not trying to argue or anything. x) And sure, it's still not "optimal" (for damage) but it's hella fun!

> > > For some reason I really hate dying in games... I can't explain why but I find it embarassing when my character begs for help on the ground! Cele builds make me invincible, that's why I love them so much. Also, I 'm quite clumsy, I honestly can't handle glass cannon builds, lol.

> >

> > Not both at once. So, it's useless. And it's a single very niche case where you had to sacrifice better traits for that.

> > If you can't play a glass cannon, why the hell are you playing Ele? I rarely die with necro or Ranger (Except falls). You don't see people playing Zerker ele or whatever dying all the time either. You just need to play better.

> > Cele stats is a crutch that you're using to keep your play-style stale and under-performing. You're holding yourself back from actually enjoying the game, the accomplishment of mastering a class because you're using the most useless stat combo outside of pvp. Celestial isn't even a tanky stat... It's just the middle of the road stat that isn't one thing or the other... And like a wise man once said:

> >

> >

> >

>

> You'll eventually figure out that life isn't like a Shonen Anime where the young boy just has to train hard to get better and break all bounds of reality and skill. Some people cannot just "get better" or do not have the time to or do not possess the equipment to or find the notion of forcing ones self to perform actions within a more and more narrow bound of compatibility to gain a specific outcome unfun thus the anti-thesis of playing a game.

 

I really do love the use of the Mr. Miyagi video, and as you may have noticed from my last post, I fully understand the advantage of glass builds. However, I think you're being unnecessarily rude here. Ultimately, this is still a game and people play the way they want to play. Telling people they're "using a crutch" or "holding themselves back" is not helpful or informative. Worse, it's not even accurate!

 

As you can see from my videos (see tinyurl.com/mushqueen for a celestial d/d ele solo kill of the mushroom queen, and tinyurl.com/hwbounty for a viper mirage havocwreaker bounty solo - and plenty more on my channel!), I can play either style just fine. Am I really holding myself back by playing the game the way I want to play it?

 

 

[Takoyakii.2146]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Trise.2865" said:

> > Are you sure that's the problem highlighted here? Look again. You see all those lfg posts saying "meta only" or using gibberish acronyms? they're STILL WAITING. They're sitting around doing nothing, hoping to find a perfect team instead of playing the game.

> >

> > Look at who is NOT waiting around to play. Do you see any "lfg-any" groups waiting around to fill? Nope, not a one. Are there none being made? or are they filling up INSTANTLY and are ALREADY PLAYING?

> >

> > Let them wait. Enjoy your game. F the meta.

>

> Those other groups are busy getting wiped. I know first hand that joining an LFG that simply says "T4 dailies" has a very high chance of failure. The minimum you need to have is pots + food. I rather wait another 10 minutes for a chrono than wiping with a bunch of noobs for 30 minutes. Good players join the LFGs that ask for pots + food and for specific classes, that's why these groups end up filled with good players that don't wipe.

 

My experience is pretty different from you I guess. I always got pretty bad team when joining exp-pots-food party for some reason -_-.

 

Plain "T4 dailies" work best for me. Dunno it a curse or something.

[FlyingK.9720]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> . . .

> As you can see from my videos (see tinyurl.com/mushqueen for a celestial d/d ele solo kill of the mushroom queen, and tinyurl.com/hwbounty for a viper mirage havocwreaker bounty solo - and plenty more on my channel!), I can play either style just fine. Am I really holding myself back by playing the game the way I want to play it?

>

 

Yes, because it's not your game to enjoy the way you want, it's everyone's game meant to be enjoyed by all players in a way predetermined by the accepted elite /s

 

Sarcasm aside the issue is that all the offered solutions of forcing people to accept diversity won't be accepted. forced grouping will just result in the people that dodged groups prior to the event being changed to people dodging at the start of the event until the penalty for dodging is made so vindictive that people will just stop running the content altogether.

 

The only way to effectively enable diversity is to make diversity a non-issue, something akin to the original design of the GW2 where all classes where self contained with no real party support and content didn't need all the players to live through it anyway. On the other hand, one could also design the experience to be like OWPvE where groups can zerg the content and the more the merrier regardless of the individual. And I suppose another possibility would be to make all end game content like adventures where the players individuality is stripped away as they are given a transform kit that forces an event specific set of skills for the player.

 

All said, I just don't see there being a proper solution to the issue as you can't make a challenge that's equally challenging to everyone you offer it to.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Of course there is a solution for this, an easy one, Anet should simply impose randomized groups. No "LfG" per say for fractals; you go into que, and are matched up with others who want to participate at the same level. Then ban the people if they leave their fractal groups (because they're unhappy) until next day's reset.

>

> Does this mean people can't play with friends? Likely yes, but it's a case of too bad so sad; players brought this on themselves.

 

SWTOR does that.

It makes life easier.

That's why SWTOR lfg is better

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Takoyakii.2146" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > @"Trise.2865" said:

> > > Are you sure that's the problem highlighted here? Look again. You see all those lfg posts saying "meta only" or using gibberish acronyms? they're STILL WAITING. They're sitting around doing nothing, hoping to find a perfect team instead of playing the game.

> > >

> > > Look at who is NOT waiting around to play. Do you see any "lfg-any" groups waiting around to fill? Nope, not a one. Are there none being made? or are they filling up INSTANTLY and are ALREADY PLAYING?

> > >

> > > Let them wait. Enjoy your game. F the meta.

> >

> > Those other groups are busy getting wiped. I know first hand that joining an LFG that simply says "T4 dailies" has a very high chance of failure. The minimum you need to have is pots + food. I rather wait another 10 minutes for a chrono than wiping with a bunch of noobs for 30 minutes. Good players join the LFGs that ask for pots + food and for specific classes, that's why these groups end up filled with good players that don't wipe.

>

> My experience is pretty different from you I guess. I always got pretty bad team when joining exp-pots-food party for some reason -_-.

>

> Plain "T4 dailies" work best for me. Dunno it a curse or something.

 

Right, that's it. I've always had the impression that those "exp pls" or "p+f" people usually are noobs who just want to be carried, so I rarely bother with these things. Just had a hilarious experience in yesterday's T4s. My friend and I had advertised plain "T4 dailies" as usual and then some clown scourge joined who cried that everyone must use pots and food. In the end, he did less than a quarter of the dps of the food-less scourge and I'm pretty sure I could have beaten his dps with my heal druid if I had tried.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"FlyingK.9720" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > . . .

> > As you can see from my videos (see tinyurl.com/mushqueen for a celestial d/d ele solo kill of the mushroom queen, and tinyurl.com/hwbounty for a viper mirage havocwreaker bounty solo - and plenty more on my channel!), I can play either style just fine. Am I really holding myself back by playing the game the way I want to play it?

> >

>

> Yes, because it's not your game to enjoy the way you want, it's everyone's game meant to be enjoyed by all players in a way predetermined by the accepted elite /s

>

> Sarcasm aside the issue is that all the offered solutions of forcing people to accept diversity won't be accepted. forced grouping will just result in the people that dodged groups prior to the event being changed to people dodging at the start of the event until the penalty for dodging is made so vindictive that people will just stop running the content altogether.

>

> The only way to effectively enable diversity is to make diversity a non-issue, something akin to the original design of the GW2 where all classes where self contained with no real party support and content didn't need all the players to live through it anyway. On the other hand, one could also design the experience to be like OWPvE where groups can zerg the content and the more the merrier regardless of the individual. And I suppose another possibility would be to make all end game content like adventures where the players individuality is stripped away as they are given a transform kit that forces an event specific set of skills for the player.

>

> All said, I just don't see there being a proper solution to the issue as you can't make a challenge that's equally challenging to everyone you offer it to.

 

There are a couple of side-discussions going on in this thread at this point (My fault, in part! Sorry!). I wasn't actually advocating for class diversity, although I believe part of the task of balancing any game of this sort is to ensure that all classes have a valuable role in group content. That's the ideal, of course. In reality, balancing is a constant process and there will always be a "meta".

 

As I said, I just took issue with the argument that players are holding themselves back if they do anything other than the meta. In fact, the entire point of my lengthy post with images and videos included was to illustrate the strong advantage glass builds have over tanky builds in group content. I agree that it's "selfish" (in a sense - see my post regarding feeling "guilty" about bringing tanky builds into group play) to bring low-damage builds into groups where your contribution - aside from staying alive, reviving the downed, and providing CC when necessary - amounts to how much damage you can output.

 

In any event, I certainly never proposed any plan to shoehorn low-damage builds into group play. I think the focus on DPS is simply a side-effect of the decision to avoid the trinity. With no defined class roles, everyone becomes responsible for being their own tank/healer (Mostly! I am aware druids exist!) in group content. What's left but DPS?

[DarkForcE.9210]

They should make each class playable with various weapon and builds with less flaw like Diablo 3 Season 12 updates...

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> In any event, I certainly never proposed any plan to shoehorn low-damage builds into group play. I think the focus on DPS is simply a side-effect of the decision to avoid the trinity. With no defined class roles, everyone becomes responsible for being their own tank/healer (Mostly! I am aware druids exist!) in group content. What's left but DPS?

No matter whether trinity or not, it's always about dps. In the trinity, the additional tanks just allow damage dealers to do their job, nothing more. In the end, the boss has x HP that need to be removed by damage. I'm just glad the devs introduced proper healing into GW2, since that allows the creation of halfway interesting encounters in contrast to the utterly primitive stuff we had in vanilla.

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"FlyingK.9720" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > . . .

> > As you can see from my videos (see tinyurl.com/mushqueen for a celestial d/d ele solo kill of the mushroom queen, and tinyurl.com/hwbounty for a viper mirage havocwreaker bounty solo - and plenty more on my channel!), I can play either style just fine. Am I really holding myself back by playing the game the way I want to play it?

> >

>

> Yes, because it's not your game to enjoy the way you want, it's everyone's game meant to be enjoyed by all players in a way predetermined by the accepted elite /s

>

> Sarcasm aside the issue is that all the offered solutions of forcing people to accept diversity won't be accepted. forced grouping will just result in the people that dodged groups prior to the event being changed to people dodging at the start of the event until the penalty for dodging is made so vindictive that people will just stop running the content altogether.

>

> The only way to effectively enable diversity is to make diversity a non-issue, something akin to the original design of the GW2 where all classes where self contained with no real party support and content didn't need all the players to live through it anyway. On the other hand, one could also design the experience to be like OWPvE where groups can zerg the content and the more the merrier regardless of the individual. And I suppose another possibility would be to make all end game content like adventures where the players individuality is stripped away as they are given a transform kit that forces an event specific set of skills for the player.

>

> All said, I just don't see there being a proper solution to the issue as you can't make a challenge that's equally challenging to everyone you offer it to.

 

No one's forcing anyone to play anything any given way. I just don't think it's fair that people that can't be bothered to put in a minimal effort still think it's legitimate to come to the forums and complain about elitism.

I don't force anyone to play any given way. In fact i actually changed from playing on my favourite classes to play on one of the classes i liked the least just to make the whole process of playing fractals easier (also because i've always played as a tank in every game, and Chrono is the most viable one), so i don't take lightly that people jump around on the forums complaining they can't play when then can't even be bothered to improve the build and mechanics on their favourite class.

If they don't want to improve its easy. Play T1-3, play Open World, play Dungeons. Just don't complain you don't fit in on high tier content if you don't put in a high-tier effort.

 

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Dude, i'm a 36 year old with a full time job, and i can get better and improve. If other people can't is because they didn't try. And that's the whole problem here.. Most people complaining about this stopped giving a kitten, settled for the lowest common denominator, and now expect everyone else to bow to their mediocrity.

>

> I suggest you look who you were quoting. The person you're directing advice to isn't expecting everyone else to bow or suggesting some change enforced. What you're saying is akin to offering advice to maximize profits for your advertisement firm to a rancher who is perfectly content with their trade, earnings and focusing on raising a family. They're completely different and viable paths...just like GW2 has different viable options, be that speed runs, newb clears, relaxed runs, etc.

>

Fair enough. Just don't complain you can't get into parties because the majority of people running T4 want to relax and do it quickly, so they ask for "meta" comps. Because, nothing's more relaxed than playing with a group that has proper DPS and knows what they're doing.

 

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >But if you can't put in the effort then don't blame others for not wanting your company in that content. Simple as that.

> > You're not playing alone, and other players aren't your servants to carry you through the content. You say its unfun for you to put in the effort to improve your gameplay. I can understand that. But for me it's also unfun to wipe 5 times on a fractal because the ele is doing little more damage than the Magi Druid and dying 300 times in the process because he's tanking when he shouldn't.

> > I don't impose on how you play, but somehow a lot of people seem to think they should impose how they play onto others.

>

> But you are imposing on how people should play, at least moreso than me imposing anything. It's the reason I don't bother with fractals anymore, not because I couldn't get good but because of drama of people complaining how others don't comply, the rage quits and premadonas.

>

No. No one's imposing anything, least of all me.

When i do T4 fractals, 90% of the time i do them with my brother, i run mins Chrono, he runs magi druid. We used to (and still run now and then) with a Guard and a Warr, but we changed because we wanted to practice rotations for Raids, and it's also easier to LFG when you already have those two slots filled.

So my LFG is always "T4 Daily", and then "recs". Sometimes when someone leaves halfway we change it to state the levels we're doing.

When my brother can't play i ask for a Druid.

I don't ask anything else, because where i'm from people that want to get something done either know what they need to do and what's required of them, or they ask.

If you ask me, i'll tell you. If you don't do what you should be doing, i'll warn you.

If we fail too much because you're dragging us back, i'll vote to kick you. If you're doing T4 you should know all those things because, theoretically at lest, you should have done that a ton of times from T1-T4.

I won't even complain that you're dragging us down if the runs go smooth, i simply don't care about anyone's individual performance. If they want to improve they can.

What i do care is that people who don't want to improve are just wasting my, and 3 other people's time, and making what should be a quick and fun time into a frustrating experience.

So yes, those people are imposing their lack of drive on me and the rest of the group, and spoiling our game experience.

 

That's not to say that the problem is just people who don't run meta builds. There's a lot of people that run meta builds, and that think that's enough, and are too self-important to play with others, and end up failing the group in exactly the same way. So yes, there are "_prima donnas_" that mess up the party just as bad and end up rage quitting. But the funny thing is. From my experience, 100% of the time that one of those people rage quit from a party, the party always finishes the encounter on the first try after.

 

But those _prima donnas_ aren't constantly running back to the forums asking for the game to be changed because they can't be bothered to change themselves. **And that's the main thing i take issue with in here. It's not that people play a certain way. Its that they refuse to adapt to the circumstances, and just want the circumstances to be adapted to them.**

 

[Mea.5491]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Not both at once. So, it's useless. And it's a single very niche case where you had to sacrifice better traits for that.

> If you can't play a glass cannon, why the hell are you playing Ele? I rarely die with necro or Ranger (Except falls). You don't see people playing Zerker ele or whatever dying all the time either. You just need to play better.

> Cele stats is a crutch that you're using to keep your play-style stale and under-performing. You're holding yourself back from actually enjoying the game, the accomplishment of mastering a class because you're using the most useless stat combo outside of pvp. Celestial isn't even a tanky stat... It's just the middle of the road stat that isn't one thing or the other...

 

I play Ele because I do what I want and I am not wasting your (or anyone's) free time in any way! "Underperforming" is relative. I've soloed the whole story (including living world) with my Cele Ele without deaths and I can do any meta event without getting downed, so to me, that means my build is awesome. I think the squishy glass cannons who die in one hit during Palawadan every 30 seconds are the ones who are underperforming because they do nothing but waiting for revive on the ground. Also, you're saying that I've been playing this game for 5+ years but I don't actually enjoy it because I'm not meta... Weird logic but whatever. :)

 

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> I hate dying in games too! Thats why I run full glass cannon and git gud. So that way i can be top dps AND not dead.

 

What if I told you that not everyone is perfect like you? I'm an older person with nerve issues so my reflexes are not super fast. However, the good thing is that this is a video game so I play whatever I find comfortable. I don't actually have to "git gud" because this is not a job and I don't have to live up to people's expectations.

[Obtena.7952]

This isn't a problem. It's just a consequence of It's just a result of a situation where players optimize their play.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Not both at once. So, it's useless. And it's a single very niche case where you had to sacrifice better traits for that.

> > If you can't play a glass cannon, why the hell are you playing Ele? I rarely die with necro or Ranger (Except falls). You don't see people playing Zerker ele or whatever dying all the time either. You just need to play better.

> > Cele stats is a crutch that you're using to keep your play-style stale and under-performing. You're holding yourself back from actually enjoying the game, the accomplishment of mastering a class because you're using the most useless stat combo outside of pvp. Celestial isn't even a tanky stat... It's just the middle of the road stat that isn't one thing or the other...

>

> I play Ele because I do what I want and I am not wasting your (or anyone's) free time in any way! "Underperforming" is relative. I've soloed the whole story (including living world) with my Cele Ele without deaths and I can do any meta event without getting downed, so to me, that means my build is awesome. I think the squishy glass cannons who die in one hit during Palawadan every 30 seconds are the ones who are underperforming because they do nothing but waiting for revive on the ground. Also, you're saying that I've been playing this game for 5+ years but I don't actually enjoy it because I'm not meta... Weird logic but whatever. :)

 

I'm not saying you're not enjoying it without meta. I'm saying that by never pushing yourself to play your class to full potential, you're basically playing on a numbed out version of ele.

But to each his own. If you want to play like that, do so.

Soloing personal story isn't that much of an achievement though, nor completing meta events. Check @"AliamRationem.5172" post for more info on why and how your perception isn't that accurate.

I've been playing since 5+ years ago, and i've played all kinds of builds on all my main classes. I've played Knight's Guardian, Soldiers DH, Berzerker DH, now i'm doing a mix of Valk with assassin's and Berzerkers for DH while i whip out some gear to play more with Firebrand.

On My ranger i started out with zerker, then moved to Raiders (i think), then back to Assassin's Ascended gear (that was before they fixed condis), and i've stuck with that because i want to gear up other classes with ascended before redoing that particular build.

On my necro i started out carrior exotics, then changed to berzerker when Reaper came out and it seemed at first to be best with power, then i changed some stuff to condi, but never did the full change, now i'm running viper's armor and weapons (mostly ascended, still working on the torch) for scourge.

I could go on, trust me...

That is to say, one of the most interesting things and fun parts of MMORPGs is the theory-crafting, improving your character, trying new things. I honestly believe that by keeping to a single non-committal build you're really doing yourself a disservice. But again, to each his own.

 

**BUT** the line is drawn when you want your opinions on what is the best build to play on a given character to mandate how the rest of the community needs to play.

If you want to LFG and use a half and half build, you can, just pull your own weight. If you can't pull your own weight, and the group fails, don't go to the forums complain that they kicked you out. **Understand that's the consequence of your own choice.**

(NB i don't mean that you specifically have that behaviour, just mean this in general)

[Mea.5491]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> If you want to LFG and use a half and half build, you can, just pull your own weight. If you can't pull your own weight, and the group fails, don't go to the forums complain that they kicked you out. Understand that's the consequence of your own choice.

 

Um, I literally never do instanced group content. I'm not gonna slow you (or anyone) down in instances, I'm not stupid, I know my build is not for that. I'm a 100% open world player. That's why I said I do whatever I want, lol.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > If you want to LFG and use a half and half build, you can, just pull your own weight. If you can't pull your own weight, and the group fails, don't go to the forums complain that they kicked you out. Understand that's the consequence of your own choice.

>

> Um, I literally never do instanced group content. I'm not gonna slow you (or anyone) down in instances, I'm not stupid, I know my build is not for that. I'm a 100% open world player. That's why I said I do whatever I want, lol.

Well... Literally my last sentence... Which you neglected to include on your quote.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> (NB i don't mean that you specifically have that behaviour, just mean this in general)

 

 

[Vulf.3098]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> In any event, I certainly never proposed any plan to shoehorn low-damage builds into group play. I think the focus on DPS is simply a side-effect of the decision to avoid the trinity. With no defined class roles, everyone becomes responsible for being their own tank/healer (Mostly! I am aware druids exist!) in group content. What's left but DPS?

 

Durable dps builds that existed in dungeons stopped being common the second dedicated healing support was added to the game. Unless Anet makes it where people can not heal/barrier each other anymore they won't be coming back to instanced group content at least not in a way you are talking about.

 

That doesn't mean Anet can not make future encounters that encourage such builds. Look at Soulless Horror for example. Trailblazer Scourge is really good as one of the tanks on that fight while still doing a rather decent amount of damage.

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> > Here is a screenshot from lfg for T4 fractals, that's something I see everyday. Almost everyone wants a party that consists of 3 BS, one mesmer and one druid. Well, some parties are just looking for dps, but even they aren't really happy when a thief or a necro joins them. Often parties wait for more than 30 minutes just because they don't want to start without a mesmer/druid, though it can be done even without these classes.

> > In WvW rangers, engineers and thieves sometimes get kicked from squads when there is not enough space for guards and scourges.

> > 2 years ago it was a problem only for raids (something I don't even want to mention here), and now almost everything is affected.

> >

> > 

> >

> > What's the point in adding new specializations, when most of them are not needed anyway?

> > It doesn't look like balance changes can fix this, it's only getting worse. Do you see any solutions to this problem?

> >

> > (I apologize for any mistakes, English isn't my first language.)

>

>

> Where is your group welcoming everyone?

It filled before I could take a Screenshot.. I'll try again today

[Zedek.8932]

> @"VaaCrow.3076" said:

> All i see there is people playing how THEY want. Which is what alot of people on this forum use as their rally cry "NO I PLAY HOW I WANT!". That's simply like minded people finding groups to play through content together. If you don't like it form your own groups... i really don't see an issue, every game has some classes that are better at certain parts of the game, GW2 is no different.

 

Just a question out of curiousity: Where are Thieves and Engineers good at that can not be done equally good or better by the other professions shown in the screen?

 

**That** is the actual problem here I guess.

LoL has the same problem: Only 40 out of the 120 champs are played for the same reason.

Why playing support X, Y and A (from 2010) when the newly released ones A, B and C are doing everything better? Why are the general community having a high winrate on certain classes (support, AD carry,...) - but only on certain characters while others have no pickrate and if, a low winrate? Your answer: "Meta". Pretty weak answer.

 

If we do a proper matrix of all professions, you will see how much stuff has been given to other professions that were once exclusive.

For example stealth -- Engineer//Scrapper. Really? What did Thieves get? "Range" with Deadeye? Which is still higher on Rangers. "+1"'ing? Can't that be done with every class if you are not asleep behind the keyboard?

 

Hear me, I am playing solo all the way, and as much as I love Deadeye, Thief is by far the profession that has been put into disadvantage since I play - 2.5 years, but still. Not mainly by nerfing per se, but by simple neglection. Like a PC with WinXP we are not even getting serviced anymore and updated to the today's games requirements.

Nothing actually have been really buffed except for some (!) damage numbers last patch (! which was absolutely necessary and not a courtesy), but also "fixing bugs" (read as: Remove) damage sources and handing free stuff to every profession (tagword: Power creep) to everyone every expansion, but some classes are obviously left out, hence the shif into requirements. The amount of Thieves for example I see myself is very low, often I don't see one in several days. The last time I played I saw a Daredevil in Joko's Domain. It is that special that I even can remember when and where, might as well mark it into the calendar because it's such a rare occurence. Deadeye? Not a single one in SEVERAL WEEKS.

 

But else, it's Mesmer, Mesmer² and Mesmer³, when I stand in Metrica Province, chilling and cleaing up my inventory, new players: Mesmer, Mesmer, Mesmer, Warrior, Warrior,.... Just place yourself in your starter town for a while and make a list...

 

Excelsior.

 

[Orpheal.8263]

I can only fully agree to what zedek has posted before me.

There is currently absolutely nothing at what Thieves especially are best anymore, the other classes and their specs do practically everythign better than Thieves, either with much more DPS than Thieves, or with much much more Group Support together on same level of DPS like Thieves.. we can outrunned by stupid coward warriors in HEAVY ARMORS since several years, with the difference, that the moment they decide to fight, they can do that at full power, while we are like sitting ducks on the silver platter without any initiative left to fight back at all, until we bought ourself with dodges and stealth first some time to get initiative enough back to be able to fight - which is if you are unlovcky oftenly enough time to get rammed into the ground quickly, if they happen to hit you strong enough. and even if you seriously try to fight such troll builds, they even with that build have then on top of that ridicullous amonts of self regeneration, that you barely deal any damage to them, which isn#t in a matter of seconds outhealed again ...

Playing Thief now 2018 isn't by far anymore as balanced and fun, like what it was like 2013 around, which was imo back then the best year for GW2 as playing a thief in this game. after that year went everything quickly down hill for the Thief Class with the pinacle being the balance patch of 23rd september of 2015 and shortly after that HoT and its massive hard cc spam that came along with it through the first set of E-Specs, basically forcing everybody to switch over to Daredevil, if you wanted to stay halfway competitive. This situation hasn't changed sadly until today.

 

PS: @ Zedek: you forgot Necromancers, cause Scourges are selling due to their OPness itself like hot cakes, same as much as like Mesmers do with their OP Mirages.

 

have sadly made no picture of it, but a few weeks ago before i looged out out of annoyance from the massive imbalances in this game to the point, that playing WVW makes more and more absolutely no fun anymore, I saw once on my enemy side some kind of small squad, like 10 peopel or soo, all of them being only Scourges .. says everything to me ... how bad PoF has been for this game's class diversity ... and they all literally playing the same build usign the same tactics of just spammign together their enemies to death with massive condi bombs and their shades >.> basicalyl most likely on command in TS coordinated ...

[Ayakaru.6583]

Ultimately, there's two roads.

You can make your own party.

Or join one.

When you join one, you must make sure you can meet the demands of the party owner.

That can be "the most optimal combination of classes and specs" or "only necromancers in pink dresses"

[JVJD.4912]

Warrior for example being the only one with banners make them wanted in every group, regardless of their set up. I see the mandatory PS warrior fading

A thief and necroare at a short end of the stick unfortunately.

 

However notice the competition in groups unlike raids there is a lot more group and the demands will eventually curbs such groups in randoms. Which his why this meta fantasy never stuck in small groups and were destroyed in dungeons as forming and clearing was incredible easy for anyone. They had to suffice their nature with pre-mades

[Lilyanna.9361]

You know it's sad, because I come from an mmo where this was never an issue.

 

It asked for one tank, two DPS, and a healer. Didn't matter which one. Granted, some juiced out a wee bit more DPS because of the class changes and fixes, but for the most part, no one gave a shit of which healer, DPS, or tank you ran.

 

Kind of a shame you guys are having issues with this, when I can literally boot up my game, hop into any tier I want with mostly any build I want and be a-okay. And I'm mostly playing in full ascended WvW builds so it's always amusing to watch both sides flail about.

 

Zerk+Valk+Soldier Weaver

Maurauder+soldier+zerk Thief or Daredevil depending how cocky I'm feeling

Trailblazer Mirage

Minstrel/Cleric/Commander Chrono

Maurauder/Zerk Reaper

Maurauder/Zerk Soulbeast

Trailblazer Condi Soulbeast

Commander/Minstrel Druid

Zerk Dragonhunter

Vipers Engie

Vipers Zerker

Trailblazer Tempest

Power Spellbreaker

Power Renegade/Herald (Another toss up depending on the boon application of the other people)

 

Those are most of my builds. About three of them can be for 'high-tier' crap, while the others depends what people need. Need a healer and boons. Grab the druid. Need more Condi, grab the war or mirage. Needs a solid dpser but can bruise? Lemme get on Weaver or the Power Soulbeast.

 

People be looking into what these classes has the potential to do instead of either

A: Just glueing themselves to metabattle or whatever site that does the number crunching for them

B: Reverting to a build that legit does nothing except pet your own ego.

 

You can still be slightly off-meta while still being viable. It's possible. I've done it, a lot of people do it, and in the long run it makes a lot of those specific people happier if they took the time to sit down and do the number crunching.

 

The zerk heads that gets one-shot by the mobs even when he claims he's practiced for 5+ years or the meathead that has abyssmal DPS and says he's actually doing something are both viable complaints. It feels nice to be on the middle ground and not have to worry about such trivial things. Just boot up the game and go.

[STIHL.2489]

The last thing Thieves need is more DPS, the little stealth gankers

[Faaris.8013]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> Right, that's it. I've always had the impression that those "exp pls" or "p+f" people usually are noobs who just want to be carried, so I rarely bother with these things. Just had a hilarious experience in yesterday's T4s. My friend and I had advertised plain "T4 dailies" as usual and then some clown scourge joined who cried that everyone must use pots and food. In the end, he did less than a quarter of the dps of the food-less scourge and I'm pretty sure I could have beaten his dps with my heal druid if I had tried.

 

It seems like you are picking an example and decide that this represents your own idea best, and then go for it. When my guild mates and I need more people for T4s, we always ask for pots and food, and no, we are not noobs that want to be carried. We don't want to carry noobs. You got it the way around ^^

 

People who don't use fractal potions for T4s probably don't know what these are actually doing. Only exception is Aquatic Ruins, only thing you need there is coffee to not fall asleep.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Fair enough. Just don't complain you can't get into parties because the majority of people running T4 want to relax and do it quickly, so they ask for "meta" comps. Because, nothing's more relaxed than playing with a group that has proper DPS and knows what they're doing.

>

> No. No one's imposing anything, least of all me.

 

I don't complain about parties, so yeah, pretty unimposing stance on team comps.

 

And you don't think you're imposing in this regard? Not picking on you but you seem so very defensive about it...at some point, if you have a preference that you like to share, you're going to impose it somehow and saying "So yes, those people are imposing their lack of drive on me and the rest of the group, and spoiling our game experience. " usually comes with the caveat that you're imposing a level of "drive" to your party members. What "drive" could mean is obviously going to be fluid for your argument, but in the context of this thread and in relation to my quotes and posts, it likely relates to non-meta builds in non-meta environments. So a guy wants to use celesial ele in open-world, LW, maybe a dungeon or guild event but that's considered "not enough drive" for an unrelated meta-environment? Hmm, that doesn't sit well with me...

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> But those _prima donnas_ aren't constantly running back to the forums asking for the game to be changed because they can't be bothered to change themselves. **And that's the main thing i take issue with in here. It's not that people play a certain way. Its that they refuse to adapt to the circumstances, and just want the circumstances to be adapted to them.**

>

 

How do you know that? I mean, yeah, I can definitely see your observations as part of the examples, but there are definitely primadonnas complaining on the forums, whining about being kicked or "carrying" players they likely weren't actually carrying or begging for player exam features and so on and so forth (basically asking for features to harass other players or enforce their imposing level of play on everyone). And to me, it's not about people playing a certain way either, but hinges on the circumstances of adaptation. The game has shifted to being abnormal to naturally learn how to play certain instances, to watching youtube videos and guides first. That removes over half the fun of what makes a game interesting, challenging the player's ability to observe and adapt on the fly. And people wonder why a lot of players never get better, the environment doesn't facilitate actually becoming "good", only copying others...but that is way off topic.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> I'm not saying you're not enjoying it without meta. I'm saying that by never pushing yourself to play your class to full potential, you're basically playing on a numbed out version of ele.

> But to each his own. If you want to play like that, do so.

 

Again, this isn't a Shonen Anime...