A lot of classes and builds are not wanted in parties/squads

[Asum.4960]

If you want build diversity, give WvW a shot.

 

In high end PvE, since Druids and to some extend Chronos, anything but the highest DPS glass cannons just doesn't make much sense.

 

You can't just slot other builds into the current meta without a major loss in efficacy.

The Druid is basically mandatory to keep the glass DPS's alive and giving out Might, and the Chrono nearly doubling everybody's DPS/support is worth more than taking another DPS, or any non meta build.

Thief stuff like blind and stealth has become irrelevant in PvE content (if it ever was), and Necro's survivability is just wasted due to the mandatory Druid, while the Devs insist on Necros trading damage and utility for their survivability, so they are just flat out worse for a group in most cases than a dedicated DPS.

 

CC requirements are not harsh enough to not be just covered by the Chrono and Druid + minor contributions from the DPS's, and why would you ever not want Banners + Empower Allies from the Warrior if you have the option (BS Warrior actually being an anomaly as DPS + DPS Support).

 

The only way non meta builds work (and they obviously can work), is if everybody in the group runs them.

I can see a half DPS/half quickness bot Firebrand, a kind of DPS Rev focusing on Alacrity with a Heal/Mightbot Scourge + 2 durable DPS builds working (or something like that).

But,

A ) Good luck getting such a group together without it being a static friends/guild group that relies on everybody always playing together

B ) It will still be worse and slower than the meta group, that's why it isn't meta

and C ) Those builds will only work in that setup (like the meta builds only work well in meta groups), and you basically can't join pugs for content without being a liability to them.

 

The Design without clear roles that GW2 launched with clearly has either failed or was abandoned.

Now either Anet needs to completely shake up the meta, which I doubt they would ever do, or they need to specifically design for those roles and give every class at least one viable build for GW2's Trinity (Healer/DPS buffer, Quickness/Alacrity Bot/Tank, dedicated DPS).

 

Then we can tackle the bigger issue of how Kill Proofs currently affect the game, as I believe they are far more harmful long term, being basically a hard gate for new players, that, without a dedicated Guild or group of friends helping them, they can never overcome.

Needing to have cleared high end content numerous times already to find reasonable groups to clear the content in question in the first place can only lead to the community doing end game PvE content getting smaller and smaller over time.

 

**TL:DR**

EIther drastically nerf/alter Druid and Chrono, which in turn could also make pure glass DPS not optimal anymore, or give classes that currently don't have a slot in the meta a build that fits into GW2's current Trinity, or are good enough to create their own unique pick like the BS.

 

 

To the OP, I have never seen anyone run 3 BS. The current optimal group for Fractals is Heal/Mightbot **Druid**, Quickness/alacrity bot **Chrono**, BS **Berserker** and 2 Power DPS, generally **Weaver**, **Dragonhunter** or **Holosmith**.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> If you want build diversity, give WvW a shot.

>

> In high end PvE, since Druids and to some extend Chronos, anything but the highest DPS glass cannons just doesn't make much sense.

>

> You can't just slot other builds into the current meta without a major loss in efficacy.

> The Druid is basically mandatory to keep the glass DPS's alive and giving out Might, and the Chrono nearly doubling everybody's DPS/support is worth more than taking another DPS, or any non meta build.

> Thief stuff like blind and stealth has become irrelevant in PvE content (if it ever was), and Necro's survivability is just wasted due to the mandatory Druid, while the Devs insist on Necros trading damage and utility for their survivability, so they are just flat out worse for a group in most cases than a dedicated DPS.

>

> CC requirements are not harsh enough to not be just covered by the Chrono and Druid + minor contributions from the DPS's, and why would you ever not want Banners + Empower Allies from the Warrior if you have the option (BS Warrior actually being an anomaly as DPS + DPS Support).

>

> The only way non meta builds work (and they obviously can work), is if everybody in the group runs them.

> I can see a half DPS/half quickness bot Firebrand, a kind of DPS Rev focusing on Alacrity with a Heal/Mightbot Scourge + 2 durable DPS builds working (or something like that).

> But,

> A ) Good luck getting such a group together without it being a static friends/guild group that relies on everybody always playing together

> B ) It will still be worse and slower than the meta group, that's why it isn't meta

> and C ) Those builds will only work in that setup (like the meta builds only work well in meta groups), and you basically can't join pugs for content without being a liability to them.

>

> The Design without clear roles that GW2 launched with clearly has either failed or was abandoned.

> Now either Anet needs to completely shake up the meta, which I doubt they would ever do, or they need to specifically design for those roles and give every class at least one viable build for GW2's Trinity (Healer/DPS buffer, Quickness/Alacrity Bot/Tank, dedicated DPS).

>

> Then we can tackle the bigger issue of how Kill Proofs currently affect the game, as I believe they are far more harmful long term, being basically a hard gate for new players, that, without a dedicated Guild or group of friends helping them, they can never overcome.

> Needing to have cleared high end content numerous times already to find reasonable groups to clear the content in question in the first place can only lead to the community doing end game PvE content getting smaller and smaller over time.

>

> **TL:DR**

> EIther drastically nerf/alter Druid and Chrono, which in turn could also make pure glass DPS not optimal anymore, or give classes that currently don't have a slot in the meta a build that fits into GW2's current Trinity, or are good enough to create their own unique pick like the BS.

>

>

> To the OP, I have never seen anyone run 3 BS. The current optimal group for Fractals is Heal/Mightbot **Druid**, Quickness/alacrity bot **Chrono**, BS **Berserker** and 2 Power DPS, generally **Weaver**, **Dragonhunter** or **Holosmith**.

 

To long didn't read, this attitude drove me into the arms of ESO, trust me the mods and folks at ANet are more than capable of seeing how much money they are losing not having me around anymore, I wasn't a Whale how ever I certainly spent more money than I should have.

 

As soon as ANet buffs Power Reaper enough and the Endgame PVE community accepts Power Reaper then I'll come back and spend money, until then I plan on saving as many unhappy PVE Casuals as I can over at Reddit by opening their eyes over the nature of this game's community and the laxidasicle approach the balance team approaches balance.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > If you want build diversity, give WvW a shot.

> >

> > In high end PvE, since Druids and to some extend Chronos, anything but the highest DPS glass cannons just doesn't make much sense.

> >

> > You can't just slot other builds into the current meta without a major loss in efficacy.

> > The Druid is basically mandatory to keep the glass DPS's alive and giving out Might, and the Chrono nearly doubling everybody's DPS/support is worth more than taking another DPS, or any non meta build.

> > Thief stuff like blind and stealth has become irrelevant in PvE content (if it ever was), and Necro's survivability is just wasted due to the mandatory Druid, while the Devs insist on Necros trading damage and utility for their survivability, so they are just flat out worse for a group in most cases than a dedicated DPS.

> >

> > CC requirements are not harsh enough to not be just covered by the Chrono and Druid + minor contributions from the DPS's, and why would you ever not want Banners + Empower Allies from the Warrior if you have the option (BS Warrior actually being an anomaly as DPS + DPS Support).

> >

> > The only way non meta builds work (and they obviously can work), is if everybody in the group runs them.

> > I can see a half DPS/half quickness bot Firebrand, a kind of DPS Rev focusing on Alacrity with a Heal/Mightbot Scourge + 2 durable DPS builds working (or something like that).

> > But,

> > A ) Good luck getting such a group together without it being a static friends/guild group that relies on everybody always playing together

> > B ) It will still be worse and slower than the meta group, that's why it isn't meta

> > and C ) Those builds will only work in that setup (like the meta builds only work well in meta groups), and you basically can't join pugs for content without being a liability to them.

> >

> > The Design without clear roles that GW2 launched with clearly has either failed or was abandoned.

> > Now either Anet needs to completely shake up the meta, which I doubt they would ever do, or they need to specifically design for those roles and give every class at least one viable build for GW2's Trinity (Healer/DPS buffer, Quickness/Alacrity Bot/Tank, dedicated DPS).

> >

> > Then we can tackle the bigger issue of how Kill Proofs currently affect the game, as I believe they are far more harmful long term, being basically a hard gate for new players, that, without a dedicated Guild or group of friends helping them, they can never overcome.

> > Needing to have cleared high end content numerous times already to find reasonable groups to clear the content in question in the first place can only lead to the community doing end game PvE content getting smaller and smaller over time.

> >

> > **TL:DR**

> > EIther drastically nerf/alter Druid and Chrono, which in turn could also make pure glass DPS not optimal anymore, or give classes that currently don't have a slot in the meta a build that fits into GW2's current Trinity, or are good enough to create their own unique pick like the BS.

> >

> >

> > To the OP, I have never seen anyone run 3 BS. The current optimal group for Fractals is Heal/Mightbot **Druid**, Quickness/alacrity bot **Chrono**, BS **Berserker** and 2 Power DPS, generally **Weaver**, **Dragonhunter** or **Holosmith**.

>

> To long didn't read, this attitude drove me into the arms of ESO, trust me the mods and folks at ANet are more than capable of seeing how much money they are losing not having me around anymore, I wasn't a Whale how ever I certainly spent more money than I should have.

 

It’s not attitude though. It’s based on testing what is optimal, using pretty simple math and methods to what rounds a 5 man group out.

That being said, you don’t need optimal to complete 100cm or any raid boss, you need competent players. Any profession is capable of being a dps, sure some output more than others, but you don’t need highest possible dps to complete content either.

Elementalists are a prime example, you could have the BiS armor and weapons, runes, sigils, the lot. If you play it like shit though, *you are not optimal*. That’s the whole point though, I’d rather take a Power Reaper or a P/P thief who stays alive, than a player who tries to play meta ele and fails to out dps the professions they don’t want in the party.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > If you want build diversity, give WvW a shot.

> > >

> > > In high end PvE, since Druids and to some extend Chronos, anything but the highest DPS glass cannons just doesn't make much sense.

> > >

> > > You can't just slot other builds into the current meta without a major loss in efficacy.

> > > The Druid is basically mandatory to keep the glass DPS's alive and giving out Might, and the Chrono nearly doubling everybody's DPS/support is worth more than taking another DPS, or any non meta build.

> > > Thief stuff like blind and stealth has become irrelevant in PvE content (if it ever was), and Necro's survivability is just wasted due to the mandatory Druid, while the Devs insist on Necros trading damage and utility for their survivability, so they are just flat out worse for a group in most cases than a dedicated DPS.

> > >

> > > CC requirements are not harsh enough to not be just covered by the Chrono and Druid + minor contributions from the DPS's, and why would you ever not want Banners + Empower Allies from the Warrior if you have the option (BS Warrior actually being an anomaly as DPS + DPS Support).

> > >

> > > The only way non meta builds work (and they obviously can work), is if everybody in the group runs them.

> > > I can see a half DPS/half quickness bot Firebrand, a kind of DPS Rev focusing on Alacrity with a Heal/Mightbot Scourge + 2 durable DPS builds working (or something like that).

> > > But,

> > > A ) Good luck getting such a group together without it being a static friends/guild group that relies on everybody always playing together

> > > B ) It will still be worse and slower than the meta group, that's why it isn't meta

> > > and C ) Those builds will only work in that setup (like the meta builds only work well in meta groups), and you basically can't join pugs for content without being a liability to them.

> > >

> > > The Design without clear roles that GW2 launched with clearly has either failed or was abandoned.

> > > Now either Anet needs to completely shake up the meta, which I doubt they would ever do, or they need to specifically design for those roles and give every class at least one viable build for GW2's Trinity (Healer/DPS buffer, Quickness/Alacrity Bot/Tank, dedicated DPS).

> > >

> > > Then we can tackle the bigger issue of how Kill Proofs currently affect the game, as I believe they are far more harmful long term, being basically a hard gate for new players, that, without a dedicated Guild or group of friends helping them, they can never overcome.

> > > Needing to have cleared high end content numerous times already to find reasonable groups to clear the content in question in the first place can only lead to the community doing end game PvE content getting smaller and smaller over time.

> > >

> > > **TL:DR**

> > > EIther drastically nerf/alter Druid and Chrono, which in turn could also make pure glass DPS not optimal anymore, or give classes that currently don't have a slot in the meta a build that fits into GW2's current Trinity, or are good enough to create their own unique pick like the BS.

> > >

> > >

> > > To the OP, I have never seen anyone run 3 BS. The current optimal group for Fractals is Heal/Mightbot **Druid**, Quickness/alacrity bot **Chrono**, BS **Berserker** and 2 Power DPS, generally **Weaver**, **Dragonhunter** or **Holosmith**.

> >

> > To long didn't read, this attitude drove me into the arms of ESO, trust me the mods and folks at ANet are more than capable of seeing how much money they are losing not having me around anymore, I wasn't a Whale how ever I certainly spent more money than I should have.

>

> It’s not attitude though. It’s based on testing what is optimal, using pretty simple math and methods to what rounds a 5 man group out.

> That being said, you don’t need optimal to complete 100cm or any raid boss, you need competent players. Any profession is capable of being a dps, sure some output more than others, but you don’t need highest possible dps to complete content either.

> Elementalists are a prime example, you could have the BiS armor and weapons, runes, sigils, the lot. If you play it like kitten though, *you are not optimal*. That’s the whole point though, I’d rather take a Power Reaper or a P/P thief who stays alive, than a player who tries to play meta ele and fails to out dps the professions they don’t want in the party.

 

Unfortunately the community doesn't view it this way, it's Meta or play in the Open World and Lower Tiers, this would be fine if there was a lower tier of raids for the undesirable players like my self.

[Carighan.6758]

Well frankly, we have:

 

* 9 classes

* 2 elite specs per class

* 5 non-elite traitlines out of which to pick either 2 or 3.

* 3x3 loadout configuration picks per traitline.

* ~40 stat combinations.

* ~50 rune options

* ~70 sigil options

* Nevermind the weapon choices

 

Contrast this with the following roles to fill:

 

* Damage

* Damage-enhancement (buffing)

* (sometimes) Healing

 

Is it any surprise that 99,99999995% of all possible combinations are unwanted?

[HyperLooser.2698]

Even in guilds and such when your let into parties and stuff they keep telling "yeah sure you can join with your rev, but would be nice if you would be a xx class" And a lot of players then actually change mains(which they like a lot) to said xx classes after a while.

 

Powergaming/Meta is THE worst thing about video games these days. Also why even online games most these days are basically single player games. Numbers are everything, no matter what.

 

And many use the "you're being selfish" if you don't play the best build in party content.

 

In the end i don't think that balancing games properly is gonna work anymore, cuz the problem is the human player and their egos.

 

[Asum.4960]

> @"HyperLooser.2698" said:

> Even in guilds and such when your let into parties and stuff they keep telling "yeah sure you can join with your rev, but would be nice if you would be a xx class" And a lot of players then actually change mains(which they like a lot) to said xx classes after a while.

>

> Powergaming/Meta is THE worst thing about video games these days. Also why even online games most these days are basically single player games. Numbers are everything, no matter what.

>

> And many use the "you're being selfish" if you don't play the best build in party content.

>

> In the end i don't think that balancing games properly is gonna work anymore, cuz the problem is the human player and their egos.

>

 

ArenaNet decided to add Raiding into the game, decided to add Ascended Gear, decided to escalate the difficulty of Fractals and to add "Raid Lite" Fractals and they decided to add the DPS test golem and allow DPS Meters.

 

Anyone who claimed this wouldn't change Guild Wars 2 and it's community drastically, or not affect the average player, was delusional or naive at best.

While a strive for efficiency will always be there for a large group of gamers, all these changes massively escalated the meta mind set in the community.

 

As a player that has multiple characters geared in fully ascended, does T4 Fractals Daily, frequently does CM's and even Raids on a weekly basis since a couple of months and having a DPS Meter on at all times for personal improvement, I can't say all these changes are bad, but they definitely changed GW2 forever.

 

Now it is ArenaNets job to operate in and cater to this meta mentality, and to be honest, they are not doing the best job at it.

 

I think Necromancer is a pretty perfect example for this in PvE.

ArenaNet simply refuses to give Necros a slot in meta groups (although they have been trying with the latest Raid), and I don't think it would even be very hard for them to fix this.

 

When we are looking at the current perfect group, we have a Healer/Might Bot, Quickness/Alacrity Bot, DPS Support and 2 dedicated DPS.

So we have 2 slots completely dedicated to buffing and healing in an active manner, 2 slots dedicated to dealing damage in an active manner, and one slot doing decent damage while adding massive damage buffs without any active component or skill.

 

What's completely absent from that list is a debuffer.

 

It would be very simple (one imagines) for ArenaNet to add boons to most mobs in the game, and make bosses apply high value boons to themselves on short intervals.

If ArenaNet slightly nerfed the damage and health of most bosses, while making them apply boons like 25 Might, Protection and Resistance to themselves on ~10 second intervals (with potential "cover boons" mixed in), it would absolutely necessitate the creation of a new meta role, diversifying the average Fractal and Raid group drastically.

 

If they wanted to really shake up the game with some major changes, they could add to that a minor nerf to what could be considered accidental or passive boon removal across most classes/specs not intended design wise for the Debuffer role, while also drastically reducing all the vulnerability floating around (a condition that never has been a mechanic due it's sheer overabundance), while changing more Necro skills with clear design towards Boon Removal and Vulnerability application in mind ("Corrupt Boon" is a perfect example of this, and criminally useless currently), they could make Necro absolute meta with very few changes, without making it a DPS Powerhouse, or escalating it's solo potential by much.

 

As this would also create a completely new Role, it would also open up new design avenues for future Elite Specialisations.

 

Even existing Elite Specs like the Spellbreaker could find their way into the PvE Meta with this role, although they would obviously have to be careful not to just make Boonremoval Spellbreaker with the boring old OP Banners/Empower Allies absolutely optimal.

 

On a similar Note, they could reverse the Druid change to Grace of The Land, as they are mandatory regardless, freeing up the might Bot slot once again.

In tandem, they could further improve the QoL of Deadeye might generation, while giving them a Trait which changes their Mark to give allies a similar DPS increase as Warrior Banners.

 

If they could also work in some sort of Group buff to Tempest's close to Ranger Spirits, you could diversify the possible party roster even more.

 

With a proper large scale balance patch, we could have:

 

**Dedicated Healer:** Druid; Tempest; Herald; Firebrand

**Dedicated Buffer:** Chronomancer; Herald; Firebrand

**Debuffer + Lite DPS:** Scourge; Spellbreaker; Scapper

**DPS Buffer/Might Bot + Lite DPS:** Berseker; Deadeye

**Dedicated Power DPS:** Weaver; Dragon Hunter; Holosmith; Reaper; Daredevil

**Dedicated Condi DPS:** Firebrand; Renegade; Mirage; Daredevil; Soulbeast

 

 

That list is obviously rudimentary and a pipe dream, but one I think would massively revitalise the game with it's role and class diversity.

A Raid squad could decide to stack all the available Damage buffs while each bringing lower individual damage, or bring a baseline of Buffs (one Might Bot/Buffer and one debuffer), while adding classes with more individual DPS, scaling better with the buffs, while providing no other benefit themselves.

 

Having 5 (or 6 with damage type in mind) defined roles as a design rule set would allow for clearer design and better overall balance, and allow to easily identify in which space a particular profession is lacking, for balancing as well as addition of future Elite Specialisations.

 

Most importantly, with a diverse but not to complex list of clear defined roles, there wouldn't be any one Profession slipping through the cracks or disappearing at the bottom of a benchmark of one single measurement like DPS.

 

Need a Debuffer + Lite DPS for your Raidsquad? Well there are 3 Specs to pick from, and while one might be considered optimal, one of the other 2 will most likely do.

Sure, at this boss this particular Healer might shine, but overall we are probably fine with a really good one of that other Spec.

etc.

 

It would also allow people to specialise into a specific Role with multiple options for different Bosses, other than DPS players.

 

You can't beat the Meta mindset in modern online gaming, so embrace it Anet!

My take on it is, it can actually be fun, but only if you operate under diverse but clear roles and provide every profession with viable options.

The current Druid, Chrono, BS + 2 DPS Meta, with only minor diversity for DPS players, is going to get stale really quickly, if it isn't already.

Trying to make half assed buff (might)+ healing (barrier) + DPS specs like Scourge, which does nothing well in PvE, is only going to get worse with future Specialisations.

You need to define a design goal for every Specialisation, and then balance it within that space, while designing the game to keep every one of those defined roles relevant.

 

It's a daunting task to start on to be sure, but balancing would be much easier and fulfilling once such a rule set is established.

 

 

**TL;DR**

Bored Nerd and Theory crafter rambling about balance dreams that will never become reality.

[AliamRationem.5172]

 

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

>

> Unfortunately the community doesn't view it this way, it's Meta or play in the Open World and Lower Tiers, this would be fine if there was a lower tier of raids for the undesirable players like my self.

 

I think this thread is evidence that the community doesn't have a uniform view on this issue.

[mercury ranique.2170]

It is something I see in almost all games I have played. There are a type of players who are very demanding when it comes to the harder content. At the start of GW2 it was in the dungons (specifically the harder ones like Arah or CoE). Then it moved to fractals and now also in raids.

 

My advice is to ignore it and not follow along if you dont want to. Just find the right guild and people around you who are not jerkstyle like this.

I actually started to enjoy doing dungeons once more cause of this. These elitsts are gone to content I disliked in the first place leaving a much nicer community for the format I enjoy.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> And what this thread is about is claiming that some classes aren't wanted, which is **FALSE**, also others suggest randomized groups so that the people that don't put in a effort to be of value to the group can go without problems.

>

 

I agree. Just because only a handful of classes are requested by name in many of the groups listed for T4 CMs, etc. doesn't mean that all other classes aren't wanted.

 

One side of the issue is player ability. T4s/raids are not designed for all players. They're designed to offer the highest level of challenge. If you find yourself getting kicked from groups routinely (Which, for the record, I have never and will never do based on performance! I would rather not complete the content or drop group myself than single another player out in a video game in this way!) it is not because you aren't playing one of the few anointed classes.

 

The other is player attitudes. Take ReaverKane.7598 and myself, for example. We more or less agree on the facts, but seem to take very different approaches in how we apply that information. He wouldn't think twice about kicking an under-performing player from the group because he believes it's selfish (and I can agree to some extent!) for 1 player to place themselves before 4-9 others. As I said, I'm not willing to do that.

 

Oil and water don't mix, guys. If you're a laid-back player that would rather slow yourself down than make another player feel unwelcome (even if it means failure!), then you should really avoid grouping with players like ReaverKane. He doesn't want you there and you don't want to be there. Find players like me instead and everyone is happy, huh?

[Henry.5713]

Pretty sure most of the people who come to the forums to complain wouldn't even have gotten a kick if they had asked nicely or had been honest with their parties after they knowingly disprected four others and their wishes.

[Ashen.2907]

There are a lot of different playstyles under the umbrella of mmo content. Play with those whose preferred play style matches your own and you are more likely to have fun than trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > If you want build diversity, give WvW a shot.

> > > >

> > > > In high end PvE, since Druids and to some extend Chronos, anything but the highest DPS glass cannons just doesn't make much sense.

> > > >

> > > > You can't just slot other builds into the current meta without a major loss in efficacy.

> > > > The Druid is basically mandatory to keep the glass DPS's alive and giving out Might, and the Chrono nearly doubling everybody's DPS/support is worth more than taking another DPS, or any non meta build.

> > > > Thief stuff like blind and stealth has become irrelevant in PvE content (if it ever was), and Necro's survivability is just wasted due to the mandatory Druid, while the Devs insist on Necros trading damage and utility for their survivability, so they are just flat out worse for a group in most cases than a dedicated DPS.

> > > >

> > > > CC requirements are not harsh enough to not be just covered by the Chrono and Druid + minor contributions from the DPS's, and why would you ever not want Banners + Empower Allies from the Warrior if you have the option (BS Warrior actually being an anomaly as DPS + DPS Support).

> > > >

> > > > The only way non meta builds work (and they obviously can work), is if everybody in the group runs them.

> > > > I can see a half DPS/half quickness bot Firebrand, a kind of DPS Rev focusing on Alacrity with a Heal/Mightbot Scourge + 2 durable DPS builds working (or something like that).

> > > > But,

> > > > A ) Good luck getting such a group together without it being a static friends/guild group that relies on everybody always playing together

> > > > B ) It will still be worse and slower than the meta group, that's why it isn't meta

> > > > and C ) Those builds will only work in that setup (like the meta builds only work well in meta groups), and you basically can't join pugs for content without being a liability to them.

> > > >

> > > > The Design without clear roles that GW2 launched with clearly has either failed or was abandoned.

> > > > Now either Anet needs to completely shake up the meta, which I doubt they would ever do, or they need to specifically design for those roles and give every class at least one viable build for GW2's Trinity (Healer/DPS buffer, Quickness/Alacrity Bot/Tank, dedicated DPS).

> > > >

> > > > Then we can tackle the bigger issue of how Kill Proofs currently affect the game, as I believe they are far more harmful long term, being basically a hard gate for new players, that, without a dedicated Guild or group of friends helping them, they can never overcome.

> > > > Needing to have cleared high end content numerous times already to find reasonable groups to clear the content in question in the first place can only lead to the community doing end game PvE content getting smaller and smaller over time.

> > > >

> > > > **TL:DR**

> > > > EIther drastically nerf/alter Druid and Chrono, which in turn could also make pure glass DPS not optimal anymore, or give classes that currently don't have a slot in the meta a build that fits into GW2's current Trinity, or are good enough to create their own unique pick like the BS.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > To the OP, I have never seen anyone run 3 BS. The current optimal group for Fractals is Heal/Mightbot **Druid**, Quickness/alacrity bot **Chrono**, BS **Berserker** and 2 Power DPS, generally **Weaver**, **Dragonhunter** or **Holosmith**.

> > >

> > > To long didn't read, this attitude drove me into the arms of ESO, trust me the mods and folks at ANet are more than capable of seeing how much money they are losing not having me around anymore, I wasn't a Whale how ever I certainly spent more money than I should have.

> >

> > It’s not attitude though. It’s based on testing what is optimal, using pretty simple math and methods to what rounds a 5 man group out.

> > That being said, you don’t need optimal to complete 100cm or any raid boss, you need competent players. Any profession is capable of being a dps, sure some output more than others, but you don’t need highest possible dps to complete content either.

> > Elementalists are a prime example, you could have the BiS armor and weapons, runes, sigils, the lot. If you play it like kitten though, *you are not optimal*. That’s the whole point though, I’d rather take a Power Reaper or a P/P thief who stays alive, than a player who tries to play meta ele and fails to out dps the professions they don’t want in the party.

>

> Unfortunately the community doesn't view it this way, it's Meta or play in the Open World and Lower Tiers, this would be fine if there was a lower tier of raids for the undesirable players like my self.

 

Actually they do.

For the most part the problem with people being excluded is that they don't even try **not to be excluded**.

A lot of people assume everyone else is an a-hole and just don't even try, while the truth is 90% of the community will take you if you don't suck. I've said it 100 times before, but i'll say it again. I do t4 fractals daily, and i've not yet ran into a group that kicked someone as they join. I've had people with 6 mastery points and 1000 AP on my group, they had crap dps, but we did all fractals first try, so he finished with us. That's pretty much how the majority of people on the LFG will behave. They assume you know what you're doing if you join a t4 group, and will kick you the hell out if you prove them wrong, which is fair enough.

I have a friend that **NEVER EVER** plays meta builds. He rarely even tries to adapt to the meta. BUT he does pvp daily (high gold, low plat), he does T4 fractals daily, and he Raids weekly.

He just adapts his build to be close enough to meta that it works, but far enough from meta that he enjoys it.

> @"Asum.4960" said:

>

> **TL;DR**

> Bored Nerd and Theory crafter rambling about balance dreams that will never become reality.

Well, what you consider balance might not be what's best for the game.

And regarding your comment about meta builds having been "engineered" by Arena Net as the game progressed is simply BS.

Since day one week one, there has been meta builds. Unless every class is **exactly** the same numerically and mechanically (which would be idiotic) there will **always** be one that is more suited for X than another.

And the community and theory crafters know that, that's why there's theory crafting. So we can hone in on the best combination of circumstances to achieve the best performance (or at least a good one that's fun).

 

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> It is something I see in almost all games I have played. There are a type of players who are very demanding when it comes to the harder content. At the start of GW2 it was in the dungons (specifically the harder ones like Arah or CoE). Then it moved to fractals and now also in raids.

>

> My advice is to ignore it and not follow along if you dont want to. Just find the right guild and people around you who are not jerkstyle like this.

> I actually started to enjoy doing dungeons once more cause of this. These elitsts are gone to content I disliked in the first place leaving a much nicer community for the format I enjoy.

The majority of people won't exclude you from content. If a group is asking for dps, just about anything that isn't using magi, givers, minstrels and other heal/support builds will work.

If they're asking for a specific class build that isn't yours, move on. When you're looking for a job do you complain that every single add doesn't fit your profile?

 

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > And what this thread is about is claiming that some classes aren't wanted, which is **FALSE**, also others suggest randomized groups so that the people that don't put in a effort to be of value to the group can go without problems.

> >

>

> I agree. Just because only a handful of classes are requested by name in many of the groups listed for T4 CMs, etc. doesn't mean that all other classes aren't wanted.

>

> One side of the issue is player ability. T4s/raids are not designed for all players. They're designed to offer the highest level of challenge. If you find yourself getting kicked from groups routinely (Which, for the record, I have never and will never do based on performance! I would rather not complete the content or drop group myself than single another player out in a video game in this way!) it is not because you aren't playing one of the few anointed classes.

>

> The other is player attitudes. Take ReaverKane.7598 and myself, for example. We more or less agree on the facts, but seem to take very different approaches in how we apply that information. He wouldn't think twice about kicking an under-performing player from the group because he believes it's selfish (and I can agree to some extent!) for 1 player to place themselves before 4-9 others. As I said, I'm not willing to do that.

>

> Oil and water don't mix, guys. If you're a laid-back player that would rather slow yourself down than make another player feel unwelcome (even if it means failure!), then you should really avoid grouping with players like ReaverKane. He doesn't want you there and you don't want to be there. Find players like me instead and everyone is happy, huh?

Hey! I'm not the bad guy here, lol.

Like i said before a few times, if a person comes into my group and asks for help, says he doesn't know, whatever, i'll gladly help out. Hell i have give away enough +9 agony infusions to people that didn't have enough that i could outfit a whole character.

But if a guy comes onto my group, doesn't say anything and just expects to be carried when he doesn't even listen to when people tell him how to do stuff, then yes, i won't think twice. But i don't just go out and kick a guy without even trying to explain to him what he's doing wrong.

Like i said, i've finished runs when i'm looking at a DPS meter and i see that a guy is doing less damage than the healer and the support chrono, but the group is coping with it, so i don't give a damn. All i want is to finish the 6fractals before reset.

Now if i have a guy that's for example leading Mai Trin away from every single electric bomb when he's targeted, and i tell him twice not to do that, by name, and he's still doing that, then yes. I vote for the kick.

The reason why i do kick instead of leaving is simple: I rarely play Fractals by myself. If i leave, then **at least** 2/5 of the party will (and that's usually the healer and the chrono). So it's easier to just kick the one rotten apple, than have to reform the whole group.

 

Hell, one of the best times i've had recently in fractals was when i was playing with a full party of guildies and friends, and we were trash talking to each other about dps, and ended up with me and my brother (chrono and druid) switching to our main chars (DH and Berzerker) to school them on dps. We failed so many encounters, but it was fun.

If you knew me, you'd know i'm very anti-meta, actually. I rarely ever play meta builds, but i do play interpretations of them. The closest thing i have to a meta build on a character is my DH. It's pretty much the same thing as the power DH build, but i don't use full Berzerker's, i use mostly Valkyries instead, since i can still squeeze out 100% crits without all the precision of a Berzerker build.

I am building a meta scourge though. But i'll probably be using carrion or rabid trinkets and backs from fractals, instead of LS3 viper ones.

 

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> Pretty sure most of the people who come to the forums to complain wouldn't even have gotten a kick if they had asked nicely or had been honest with their parties after they knowingly disprected four others and their wishes.

So true!

 

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> There are a lot of different playstyles under the umbrella of mmo content. Play with those whose preferred play style matches your own and you are more likely to have fun than trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

The problem with this post is that people want the round pegs and hole to become square.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

Hey, sorry about that. I didn't really mean to make you out to be the bad guy. Oil and water and all that. I just think there are very different expectations depending on the player and rather than be ultra-sensitive about that and turn it into, well, a forum discussion like this one, players might do better to evaluate what type of player they are and which types of players they work best with when approaching group content.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > If you want build diversity, give WvW a shot.

> > > > >

> > > > > In high end PvE, since Druids and to some extend Chronos, anything but the highest DPS glass cannons just doesn't make much sense.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can't just slot other builds into the current meta without a major loss in efficacy.

> > > > > The Druid is basically mandatory to keep the glass DPS's alive and giving out Might, and the Chrono nearly doubling everybody's DPS/support is worth more than taking another DPS, or any non meta build.

> > > > > Thief stuff like blind and stealth has become irrelevant in PvE content (if it ever was), and Necro's survivability is just wasted due to the mandatory Druid, while the Devs insist on Necros trading damage and utility for their survivability, so they are just flat out worse for a group in most cases than a dedicated DPS.

> > > > >

> > > > > CC requirements are not harsh enough to not be just covered by the Chrono and Druid + minor contributions from the DPS's, and why would you ever not want Banners + Empower Allies from the Warrior if you have the option (BS Warrior actually being an anomaly as DPS + DPS Support).

> > > > >

> > > > > The only way non meta builds work (and they obviously can work), is if everybody in the group runs them.

> > > > > I can see a half DPS/half quickness bot Firebrand, a kind of DPS Rev focusing on Alacrity with a Heal/Mightbot Scourge + 2 durable DPS builds working (or something like that).

> > > > > But,

> > > > > A ) Good luck getting such a group together without it being a static friends/guild group that relies on everybody always playing together

> > > > > B ) It will still be worse and slower than the meta group, that's why it isn't meta

> > > > > and C ) Those builds will only work in that setup (like the meta builds only work well in meta groups), and you basically can't join pugs for content without being a liability to them.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Design without clear roles that GW2 launched with clearly has either failed or was abandoned.

> > > > > Now either Anet needs to completely shake up the meta, which I doubt they would ever do, or they need to specifically design for those roles and give every class at least one viable build for GW2's Trinity (Healer/DPS buffer, Quickness/Alacrity Bot/Tank, dedicated DPS).

> > > > >

> > > > > Then we can tackle the bigger issue of how Kill Proofs currently affect the game, as I believe they are far more harmful long term, being basically a hard gate for new players, that, without a dedicated Guild or group of friends helping them, they can never overcome.

> > > > > Needing to have cleared high end content numerous times already to find reasonable groups to clear the content in question in the first place can only lead to the community doing end game PvE content getting smaller and smaller over time.

> > > > >

> > > > > **TL:DR**

> > > > > EIther drastically nerf/alter Druid and Chrono, which in turn could also make pure glass DPS not optimal anymore, or give classes that currently don't have a slot in the meta a build that fits into GW2's current Trinity, or are good enough to create their own unique pick like the BS.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > To the OP, I have never seen anyone run 3 BS. The current optimal group for Fractals is Heal/Mightbot **Druid**, Quickness/alacrity bot **Chrono**, BS **Berserker** and 2 Power DPS, generally **Weaver**, **Dragonhunter** or **Holosmith**.

> > > >

> > > > To long didn't read, this attitude drove me into the arms of ESO, trust me the mods and folks at ANet are more than capable of seeing how much money they are losing not having me around anymore, I wasn't a Whale how ever I certainly spent more money than I should have.

> > >

> > > It’s not attitude though. It’s based on testing what is optimal, using pretty simple math and methods to what rounds a 5 man group out.

> > > That being said, you don’t need optimal to complete 100cm or any raid boss, you need competent players. Any profession is capable of being a dps, sure some output more than others, but you don’t need highest possible dps to complete content either.

> > > Elementalists are a prime example, you could have the BiS armor and weapons, runes, sigils, the lot. If you play it like kitten though, *you are not optimal*. That’s the whole point though, I’d rather take a Power Reaper or a P/P thief who stays alive, than a player who tries to play meta ele and fails to out dps the professions they don’t want in the party.

> >

> > Unfortunately the community doesn't view it this way, it's Meta or play in the Open World and Lower Tiers, this would be fine if there was a lower tier of raids for the undesirable players like my self.

>

> Actually they do.

> For the most part the problem with people being excluded is that they don't even try **not to be excluded**.

> A lot of people assume everyone else is an kitten and just don't even try, while the truth is 90% of the community will take you if you don't suck. I've said it 100 times before, but i'll say it again. I do t4 fractals daily, and i've not yet ran into a group that kicked someone as they join. I've had people with 6 mastery points and 1000 AP on my group, they had crap dps, but we did all fractals first try, so he finished with us. That's pretty much how the majority of people on the LFG will behave. They assume you know what you're doing if you join a t4 group, and will kick you the hell out if you prove them wrong, which is fair enough.

> I have a friend that **NEVER EVER** plays meta builds. He rarely even tries to adapt to the meta. BUT he does pvp daily (high gold, low plat), he does T4 fractals daily, and he Raids weekly.

> He just adapts his build to be close enough to meta that it works, but far enough from meta that he enjoys it.

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> >

> > **TL;DR**

> > Bored Nerd and Theory crafter rambling about balance dreams that will never become reality.

> Well, what you consider balance might not be what's best for the game.

> And regarding your comment about meta builds having been "engineered" by Arena Net as the game progressed is simply BS.

> Since day one week one, there has been meta builds. Unless every class is **exactly** the same numerically and mechanically (which would be idiotic) there will **always** be one that is more suited for X than another.

> And the community and theory crafters know that, that's why there's theory crafting. So we can hone in on the best combination of circumstances to achieve the best performance (or at least a good one that's fun).

>

> > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > It is something I see in almost all games I have played. There are a type of players who are very demanding when it comes to the harder content. At the start of GW2 it was in the dungons (specifically the harder ones like Arah or CoE). Then it moved to fractals and now also in raids.

> >

> > My advice is to ignore it and not follow along if you dont want to. Just find the right guild and people around you who are not jerkstyle like this.

> > I actually started to enjoy doing dungeons once more cause of this. These elitsts are gone to content I disliked in the first place leaving a much nicer community for the format I enjoy.

> The majority of people won't exclude you from content. If a group is asking for dps, just about anything that isn't using magi, givers, minstrels and other heal/support builds will work.

> If they're asking for a specific class build that isn't yours, move on. When you're looking for a job do you complain that every single add doesn't fit your profile?

>

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > And what this thread is about is claiming that some classes aren't wanted, which is **FALSE**, also others suggest randomized groups so that the people that don't put in a effort to be of value to the group can go without problems.

> > >

> >

> > I agree. Just because only a handful of classes are requested by name in many of the groups listed for T4 CMs, etc. doesn't mean that all other classes aren't wanted.

> >

> > One side of the issue is player ability. T4s/raids are not designed for all players. They're designed to offer the highest level of challenge. If you find yourself getting kicked from groups routinely (Which, for the record, I have never and will never do based on performance! I would rather not complete the content or drop group myself than single another player out in a video game in this way!) it is not because you aren't playing one of the few anointed classes.

> >

> > The other is player attitudes. Take ReaverKane.7598 and myself, for example. We more or less agree on the facts, but seem to take very different approaches in how we apply that information. He wouldn't think twice about kicking an under-performing player from the group because he believes it's selfish (and I can agree to some extent!) for 1 player to place themselves before 4-9 others. As I said, I'm not willing to do that.

> >

> > Oil and water don't mix, guys. If you're a laid-back player that would rather slow yourself down than make another player feel unwelcome (even if it means failure!), then you should really avoid grouping with players like ReaverKane. He doesn't want you there and you don't want to be there. Find players like me instead and everyone is happy, huh?

> Hey! I'm not the bad guy here, lol.

> Like i said before a few times, if a person comes into my group and asks for help, says he doesn't know, whatever, i'll gladly help out. Hell i have give away enough +9 agony infusions to people that didn't have enough that i could outfit a whole character.

> But if a guy comes onto my group, doesn't say anything and just expects to be carried when he doesn't even listen to when people tell him how to do stuff, then yes, i won't think twice. But i don't just go out and kick a guy without even trying to explain to him what he's doing wrong.

> Like i said, i've finished runs when i'm looking at a DPS meter and i see that a guy is doing less damage than the healer and the support chrono, but the group is coping with it, so i don't give a kitten. All i want is to finish the 6fractals before reset.

> Now if i have a guy that's for example leading Mai Trin away from every single electric bomb when he's targeted, and i tell him twice not to do that, by name, and he's still doing that, then yes. I vote for the kick.

> The reason why i do kick instead of leaving is simple: I rarely play Fractals by myself. If i leave, then **at least** 2/5 of the party will (and that's usually the healer and the chrono). So it's easier to just kick the one rotten apple, than have to reform the whole group.

>

> Hell, one of the best times i've had recently in fractals was when i was playing with a full party of guildies and friends, and we were trash talking to each other about dps, and ended up with me and my brother (chrono and druid) switching to our main chars (DH and Berzerker) to school them on dps. We failed so many encounters, but it was fun.

> If you knew me, you'd know i'm very anti-meta, actually. I rarely ever play meta builds, but i do play interpretations of them. The closest thing i have to a meta build on a character is my DH. It's pretty much the same thing as the power DH build, but i don't use full Berzerker's, i use mostly Valkyries instead, since i can still squeeze out 100% crits without all the precision of a Berzerker build.

> I am building a meta scourge though. But i'll probably be using carrion or rabid trinkets and backs from fractals, instead of LS3 viper ones.

>

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > Pretty sure most of the people who come to the forums to complain wouldn't even have gotten a kick if they had asked nicely or had been honest with their parties after they knowingly disprected four others and their wishes.

> So true!

>

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > There are a lot of different playstyles under the umbrella of mmo content. Play with those whose preferred play style matches your own and you are more likely to have fun than trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

> The problem with this post is that people want the round pegs and hole to become square.

>

 

That's reassuring, if I get burned out from the library of story and Dragon Knight tanking from ESO I'll come back and try joining a Raid on my non META Power Reaper,

[Asum.4960]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Well, what you consider balance might not be what's best for the game.

 

I didn't make that claim either, I was just "thinking out loud" on how they could increase build and role diversity.

That might not be what the game needs, but I'm personally tired of watching people jump ship to other games with less narrow metas.

Lack of balance and build diversity is the the number one reason I hear from people when catching up with them after they seem to have quit playing GW2.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> And regarding your comment about meta builds having been "engineered" by Arena Net as the game progressed is simply BS.

 

Can you point me to where I made that claim?

I stated that, in my opinion, Anet **now** needs to engineer builds, or at least engineer frameworks for builds/roles with the idea of a meta in mind, since clearly that mind set has become established in the community, see LFG for any difficult content.

If they keep throwing out Elite Specs with no clear purpose in design which don't find a place in 2/3s of the game (or at all), people playing those professions will loose more and more interest in the game.

Alot of people are loosing connections to their characters, with them just becoming tools to chase the meta, or complain about being unwanted in groups because they don't want to give up on their non meta professions, see people really enjoying Reaper, Scrapper and so on.

 

With a diverse set of roles, and Specialisations to play those roles with, people could find their identity in one of those roles (I'm a Healer, so I have all of these Professions with a dedicated Healer Elite Specialisation), or in a character and therefore profession again (I'm X professions, and I can fill all the roles it has Elite Specialisations designed for).

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Since day one week one, there has been meta builds. Unless every class is **exactly** the same numerically and mechanically (which would be idiotic) there will **always** be one that is more suited for X than another.

> And the community and theory crafters know that, that's why there's theory crafting. So we can hone in on the best combination of circumstances to achieve the best performance (or at least a good one that's fun).

 

That's exactly my point. So why not cater to that more and diversify it?

 

Actually make mechanical diversity, but make the different ways of healing, doing damage, buffing etc similar enough in effectiveness to be competitive to each other and with each other.

 

How long will healers want to do their Druid thing? How long will Mesmers mains want to play quickness/alacrity bot and how long will Warrior mains want to place Banners?

 

DPS players are really the only community sub set enjoying build and class diversity (lucky me), and you can't really invent the wheel new there.

Now imagine a list of viable professions like DPS has them (Weaver might be technically optimal, but plenty other Specs get used as well), just for healers and Supports as well, and add to that an entirely new role like the debuffer I described, and a fleshed out role of "Might bots" or Lite-DPS's with damage support like the BS, or more like cPS before that.

We need more options than 3 specific builds of 3 specific professions + 2 DPS for every group.

 

Personally I think adding mechanically different roles (like a debuffer), and diversifying existing roles (like adding more meta viable Healers and Supports) is vital for the game long term.

 

If that's just me though, that's fine too.

If people are good with one healer build, one support build and one quirky passive DPS support, with an increasing number of Elite Specialisations without clear purpose slowly being forgotten, then I might have misjudged the community and what the game needs to address balancing issues (no sarcasm intended).

[Alehin.3746]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > > @"arenta.2953" said:

> > > > considering my main characters are a Knight Soulbeast (power, prec, toughness)

> > > >

> > > > a Soldier/Knight Reaper (Power, Prec, Tough, Vit)

> > > >

> > > > and a Marauder Deadeye(power,prec,ferocity,vit)

> > > >

> > > > it really does suck that so few builds are viable.....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GW2 used to be fun, bring what build u want. and if we die, keep trying cause its fun to play (anyone remember Ascalon Catacombs Underwear runs? where we keep running to the boss until we grind him down. usually ending up with all our armor broken)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > but now...if you don't meet the requriement of this level dps or this specific class/armor set up. you'll be lucky to participate.....

> > > >

> > > > durable builds.....suffer =(

> > >

> > > I love your builds! :D I think people who say defensive stats are bad never actually tried them and they are the ones who get downed in one hit during meta events while I'm still above 80% HP as a Celestial Engineer, lol.

> >

> > Love my celestial ele, too!

> >

> > Having said that, running arcdps has been a real eye-opener for me. I never considered it impossible for a large group to be carried by a few players. However, I didn't realize that this is usually the case in open world. I've seen some pretty extreme examples (e.g. 47% of damage carried by a single player against a legendary hydra bounty in a 40 man squad!).

> >

> > I almost feel guilty using a tanky build now! And if someone isn't there to bring the damage, I now find myself thinking how much easier this would be if I were dealing more myself.

> The tanky builds enable them to do that much damage anyway. Mobs generally focus on toughness, remember? That single player would probably have died if the hydra accidentally sneezed on him.

>

> I fail to see why anyone should feel "guilty" running a tank. "Tanks" in GW2 with 2000+ toughness can still have 2000+ power, 30%+ crit chance and 200%+ crit dmg. And thats just power, if you put all that into condi instead you can have like 1800+ condi dmg.

 

1- No, mobs don't focus on the person with high toughness. **There's no need for tanks in dungeons/fractals/open world pve**.

2- You shouldnt feel guilty about being a "tank", but you also shouldn't blame people for not wanting to play with you. **People have their preferences, if you can't stand them just make your own group and specify it as "no meta" or "chill" group.**

 

I personally don't like playing with more than one healer or "tanks" in my party, the only exception for "tanks" are chronotanks, because they provide boons that improve the party DPS. But thats because an extra healer or any other "tank" is useless, i don't mind people playing power (berserker/marauder) reaper or any other off-meta spec as long as they are trying to do their part.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > If you want build diversity, give WvW a shot.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In high end PvE, since Druids and to some extend Chronos, anything but the highest DPS glass cannons just doesn't make much sense.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You can't just slot other builds into the current meta without a major loss in efficacy.

> > > > > > The Druid is basically mandatory to keep the glass DPS's alive and giving out Might, and the Chrono nearly doubling everybody's DPS/support is worth more than taking another DPS, or any non meta build.

> > > > > > Thief stuff like blind and stealth has become irrelevant in PvE content (if it ever was), and Necro's survivability is just wasted due to the mandatory Druid, while the Devs insist on Necros trading damage and utility for their survivability, so they are just flat out worse for a group in most cases than a dedicated DPS.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > CC requirements are not harsh enough to not be just covered by the Chrono and Druid + minor contributions from the DPS's, and why would you ever not want Banners + Empower Allies from the Warrior if you have the option (BS Warrior actually being an anomaly as DPS + DPS Support).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The only way non meta builds work (and they obviously can work), is if everybody in the group runs them.

> > > > > > I can see a half DPS/half quickness bot Firebrand, a kind of DPS Rev focusing on Alacrity with a Heal/Mightbot Scourge + 2 durable DPS builds working (or something like that).

> > > > > > But,

> > > > > > A ) Good luck getting such a group together without it being a static friends/guild group that relies on everybody always playing together

> > > > > > B ) It will still be worse and slower than the meta group, that's why it isn't meta

> > > > > > and C ) Those builds will only work in that setup (like the meta builds only work well in meta groups), and you basically can't join pugs for content without being a liability to them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Design without clear roles that GW2 launched with clearly has either failed or was abandoned.

> > > > > > Now either Anet needs to completely shake up the meta, which I doubt they would ever do, or they need to specifically design for those roles and give every class at least one viable build for GW2's Trinity (Healer/DPS buffer, Quickness/Alacrity Bot/Tank, dedicated DPS).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then we can tackle the bigger issue of how Kill Proofs currently affect the game, as I believe they are far more harmful long term, being basically a hard gate for new players, that, without a dedicated Guild or group of friends helping them, they can never overcome.

> > > > > > Needing to have cleared high end content numerous times already to find reasonable groups to clear the content in question in the first place can only lead to the community doing end game PvE content getting smaller and smaller over time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **TL:DR**

> > > > > > EIther drastically nerf/alter Druid and Chrono, which in turn could also make pure glass DPS not optimal anymore, or give classes that currently don't have a slot in the meta a build that fits into GW2's current Trinity, or are good enough to create their own unique pick like the BS.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To the OP, I have never seen anyone run 3 BS. The current optimal group for Fractals is Heal/Mightbot **Druid**, Quickness/alacrity bot **Chrono**, BS **Berserker** and 2 Power DPS, generally **Weaver**, **Dragonhunter** or **Holosmith**.

> > > > >

> > > > > To long didn't read, this attitude drove me into the arms of ESO, trust me the mods and folks at ANet are more than capable of seeing how much money they are losing not having me around anymore, I wasn't a Whale how ever I certainly spent more money than I should have.

> > > >

> > > > It’s not attitude though. It’s based on testing what is optimal, using pretty simple math and methods to what rounds a 5 man group out.

> > > > That being said, you don’t need optimal to complete 100cm or any raid boss, you need competent players. Any profession is capable of being a dps, sure some output more than others, but you don’t need highest possible dps to complete content either.

> > > > Elementalists are a prime example, you could have the BiS armor and weapons, runes, sigils, the lot. If you play it like kitten though, *you are not optimal*. That’s the whole point though, I’d rather take a Power Reaper or a P/P thief who stays alive, than a player who tries to play meta ele and fails to out dps the professions they don’t want in the party.

> > >

> > > Unfortunately the community doesn't view it this way, it's Meta or play in the Open World and Lower Tiers, this would be fine if there was a lower tier of raids for the undesirable players like my self.

> >

> > Actually they do.

> > For the most part the problem with people being excluded is that they don't even try **not to be excluded**.

> > A lot of people assume everyone else is an kitten and just don't even try, while the truth is 90% of the community will take you if you don't suck. I've said it 100 times before, but i'll say it again. I do t4 fractals daily, and i've not yet ran into a group that kicked someone as they join. I've had people with 6 mastery points and 1000 AP on my group, they had crap dps, but we did all fractals first try, so he finished with us. That's pretty much how the majority of people on the LFG will behave. They assume you know what you're doing if you join a t4 group, and will kick you the hell out if you prove them wrong, which is fair enough.

> > I have a friend that **NEVER EVER** plays meta builds. He rarely even tries to adapt to the meta. BUT he does pvp daily (high gold, low plat), he does T4 fractals daily, and he Raids weekly.

> > He just adapts his build to be close enough to meta that it works, but far enough from meta that he enjoys it.

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > >

> > > **TL;DR**

> > > Bored Nerd and Theory crafter rambling about balance dreams that will never become reality.

> > Well, what you consider balance might not be what's best for the game.

> > And regarding your comment about meta builds having been "engineered" by Arena Net as the game progressed is simply BS.

> > Since day one week one, there has been meta builds. Unless every class is **exactly** the same numerically and mechanically (which would be idiotic) there will **always** be one that is more suited for X than another.

> > And the community and theory crafters know that, that's why there's theory crafting. So we can hone in on the best combination of circumstances to achieve the best performance (or at least a good one that's fun).

> >

> > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > > It is something I see in almost all games I have played. There are a type of players who are very demanding when it comes to the harder content. At the start of GW2 it was in the dungons (specifically the harder ones like Arah or CoE). Then it moved to fractals and now also in raids.

> > >

> > > My advice is to ignore it and not follow along if you dont want to. Just find the right guild and people around you who are not jerkstyle like this.

> > > I actually started to enjoy doing dungeons once more cause of this. These elitsts are gone to content I disliked in the first place leaving a much nicer community for the format I enjoy.

> > The majority of people won't exclude you from content. If a group is asking for dps, just about anything that isn't using magi, givers, minstrels and other heal/support builds will work.

> > If they're asking for a specific class build that isn't yours, move on. When you're looking for a job do you complain that every single add doesn't fit your profile?

> >

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > And what this thread is about is claiming that some classes aren't wanted, which is **FALSE**, also others suggest randomized groups so that the people that don't put in a effort to be of value to the group can go without problems.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I agree. Just because only a handful of classes are requested by name in many of the groups listed for T4 CMs, etc. doesn't mean that all other classes aren't wanted.

> > >

> > > One side of the issue is player ability. T4s/raids are not designed for all players. They're designed to offer the highest level of challenge. If you find yourself getting kicked from groups routinely (Which, for the record, I have never and will never do based on performance! I would rather not complete the content or drop group myself than single another player out in a video game in this way!) it is not because you aren't playing one of the few anointed classes.

> > >

> > > The other is player attitudes. Take ReaverKane.7598 and myself, for example. We more or less agree on the facts, but seem to take very different approaches in how we apply that information. He wouldn't think twice about kicking an under-performing player from the group because he believes it's selfish (and I can agree to some extent!) for 1 player to place themselves before 4-9 others. As I said, I'm not willing to do that.

> > >

> > > Oil and water don't mix, guys. If you're a laid-back player that would rather slow yourself down than make another player feel unwelcome (even if it means failure!), then you should really avoid grouping with players like ReaverKane. He doesn't want you there and you don't want to be there. Find players like me instead and everyone is happy, huh?

> > Hey! I'm not the bad guy here, lol.

> > Like i said before a few times, if a person comes into my group and asks for help, says he doesn't know, whatever, i'll gladly help out. Hell i have give away enough +9 agony infusions to people that didn't have enough that i could outfit a whole character.

> > But if a guy comes onto my group, doesn't say anything and just expects to be carried when he doesn't even listen to when people tell him how to do stuff, then yes, i won't think twice. But i don't just go out and kick a guy without even trying to explain to him what he's doing wrong.

> > Like i said, i've finished runs when i'm looking at a DPS meter and i see that a guy is doing less damage than the healer and the support chrono, but the group is coping with it, so i don't give a kitten. All i want is to finish the 6fractals before reset.

> > Now if i have a guy that's for example leading Mai Trin away from every single electric bomb when he's targeted, and i tell him twice not to do that, by name, and he's still doing that, then yes. I vote for the kick.

> > The reason why i do kick instead of leaving is simple: I rarely play Fractals by myself. If i leave, then **at least** 2/5 of the party will (and that's usually the healer and the chrono). So it's easier to just kick the one rotten apple, than have to reform the whole group.

> >

> > Hell, one of the best times i've had recently in fractals was when i was playing with a full party of guildies and friends, and we were trash talking to each other about dps, and ended up with me and my brother (chrono and druid) switching to our main chars (DH and Berzerker) to school them on dps. We failed so many encounters, but it was fun.

> > If you knew me, you'd know i'm very anti-meta, actually. I rarely ever play meta builds, but i do play interpretations of them. The closest thing i have to a meta build on a character is my DH. It's pretty much the same thing as the power DH build, but i don't use full Berzerker's, i use mostly Valkyries instead, since i can still squeeze out 100% crits without all the precision of a Berzerker build.

> > I am building a meta scourge though. But i'll probably be using carrion or rabid trinkets and backs from fractals, instead of LS3 viper ones.

> >

> > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > Pretty sure most of the people who come to the forums to complain wouldn't even have gotten a kick if they had asked nicely or had been honest with their parties after they knowingly disprected four others and their wishes.

> > So true!

> >

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > There are a lot of different playstyles under the umbrella of mmo content. Play with those whose preferred play style matches your own and you are more likely to have fun than trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

> > The problem with this post is that people want the round pegs and hole to become square.

> >

>

> That's reassuring, if I get burned out from the library of story and Dragon Knight tanking from ESO I'll come back and try joining a Raid on my non META Power Reaper,

 

Power Reaper is actually slightly better atm. But don't expect to get a ton of damage out of it.

You have to understand a thing about raids. All raid bosses have a DPS requirement. All bosses will enrage and pretty much make you fail the encounter if the group doesn't have enough DPS. It doesn't mean that you HAVE to bring a full meta comp, but you must at least try to bring a build that can help with the dps.

That being said, unless you're experienced with Raids, you should try to take a build that is as close to meta as you can play it well, after you're familiar with the mechanics and the encounters, and if you have a like-minded group you can experiment a lot. There's been several encounters done with duo comps, some even soloed, and a lot of people have done stuff like all Necro Veil Guardian, etc.

But when you're still braving the LFG and learning the mechanics, you should give yourself the most advantages possible.> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Well, what you consider balance might not be what's best for the game.

>

> I didn't make that claim either, I was just "thinking out loud" on how they could increase build and role diversity.

> That might not be what the game needs, but I'm personally tired of watching people jump ship to other games with less narrow metas.

> Lack of balance and build diversity is the the number one reason I hear from people when catching up with them after they seem to have quit playing GW2.

>

Well, to be fair, that's the reason most people will cite for leaving every game. After a while they start creating expectations and when they aren't met, they bolt.

The game isn't that imbalanced as people claim. The thing is in **every game** meta is about BiS. And there can only be one of those. SO people view it as a narrow choice. Which it actually isn't. If you're competent and familiar with the content you'll know how to build your character in a way that it's fun for you and viable for the content you want.

You have to remember there are very strict DPS gates in a lot of Raid encounters, where if you don't burn through a mob or a boss in specific windows you might fail the whole encounter.

That's why meta or Kill proofs are encouraged in LFG, because people don't know how experienced you are or aren't. Something that works in open world may or may not work on Raids, or T4 fractals, simply because the content itself is more demanding.

 

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > And regarding your comment about meta builds having been "engineered" by Arena Net as the game progressed is simply BS.

>

> Can you point me to where I made that claim?

> I stated that, in my opinion, Anet **now** needs to engineer builds, or at least engineer frameworks for builds/roles with the idea of a meta in mind, since clearly that mind set has become established in the community, see LFG for any difficult content.

> If they keep throwing out Elite Specs with no clear purpose in design which don't find a place in 2/3s of the game (or at all), people playing those professions will loose more and more interest in the game.

> Alot of people are loosing connections to their characters, with them just becoming tools to chase the meta, or complain about being unwanted in groups because they don't want to give up on their non meta professions, see people really enjoying Reaper, Scrapper and so on.

>

> With a diverse set of roles, and Specialisations to play those roles with, people could find their identity in one of those roles (I'm a Healer, so I have all of these Professions with a dedicated Healer Elite Specialisation), or in a character and therefore profession again (I'm X professions, and I can fill all the roles it has Elite Specialisations designed for).

Actually, they don't need to do anything of that. I guess i missinterpreted your original statement.

But Arena Net is the one that **creates** the environment that favours this or that meta. If Druid wasn't so great at healing, you'd be running Centaur Revenants or Healing Tempests, or maybe even Guardians, because you **need** healers for Raids, because Arena Net designed Raids to need healers.

If chrono didn't have alacrity and quickness, we'd probably be using Timewarps and Guardian shouts for quickness (and Firebrands now).

Etc, etc.

It was Arena Net that created the need for these roles by establishing the DPS gates, it was them that gave the meta builds the tools that made them meta. It's Anet that can change the meta by changing the classes. And, honestly PoF created new alternatives. The thing is to replace a Chronomancer atm, you need a Firebrand + Renegade, and unless they both use Concentration gear they'll probably have less uptime, so a chronomancer is still better than those, because it takes less slots.

But **maybe** with a few tweaks we could have had Centaur/jalis Renegades with minstrel's gear as an alternative to druids, if they hadn't changed Phalanx Strength and made Druids the primary source of might.

 

The problem isn't that they don't balance, or provide variety. The problem is that they're **slow** at doing it. By now, 4 months after the expansion release, there should have been at least 4 iterations of balance, if not more. We had barely one.

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Since day one week one, there has been meta builds. Unless every class is **exactly** the same numerically and mechanically (which would be idiotic) there will **always** be one that is more suited for X than another.

> > And the community and theory crafters know that, that's why there's theory crafting. So we can hone in on the best combination of circumstances to achieve the best performance (or at least a good one that's fun).

>

> That's exactly my point. So why not cater to that more and diversify it?

>

> Actually make mechanical diversity, but make the different ways of healing, doing damage, buffing etc similar enough in effectiveness to be competitive to each other and with each other.

>

> How long will healers want to do their Druid thing? How long will Mesmers mains want to play quickness/alacrity bot and how long will Warrior mains want to place Banners?

>

> DPS players are really the only community sub set enjoying build and class diversity (lucky me), and you can't really invent the wheel new there.

> Now imagine a list of viable professions like DPS has them (Weaver might be technically optimal, but plenty other Specs get used as well), just for healers and Supports as well, and add to that an entirely new role like the debuffer I described, and a fleshed out role of "Might bots" or Lite-DPS's with damage support like the BS, or more like cPS before that.

> We need more options than 3 specific builds of 3 specific professions + 2 DPS for every group.

>

> Personally I think adding mechanically different roles (like a debuffer), and diversifying existing roles (like adding more meta viable Healers and Supports) is vital for the game long term.

>

> If that's just me though, that's fine too.

> If people are good with one healer build, one support build and one quirky passive DPS support, with an increasing number of Elite Specialisations without clear purpose slowly being forgotten, then I might have misjudged the community and what the game needs to address balancing issues (no sarcasm intended).

Yes, they should increase variability, and they do, but they are stubborn, slow, and kind of dumb in their approach.

By restricting themselves to adding 1 elite spec every 2 years, it'll take at least 4 more years for them to have enough elite specs for the game to offer enough alternatives. The same thing with their self-imposed bi-monthly balance restriction. It just hinders their ability to change the game at a pace that matters.

Well, they actually added **two** debuffers (Scourge and Spellbreaker) in PoF... People didn't seem to like it... Especially since not many mobs do use boons, the result is two classes that, especially with the over-abundance of boons from HoT, are extremely overpowering in PvP, but not very useful for PvE.

Other than that... If you mean classes that will weaken the adversary, we've had that since launch in the form of classes that inflict vuln, weakness, confusion, and later torment.

 

[Samnang.1879]

not all classes were created equally; it's as simple as that.

 

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Samnang.1879" said:

> not all classes were created equally; it's as simple as that.

>

 

Neither were games as I just discovered recently, I learned I no longer have to settle for second rate balancing.

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Samnang.1879" said:

> > not all classes were created equally; it's as simple as that.

> >

>

> Neither were games as I just discovered recently, I learned I no longer have to settle for second rate balancing.

 

sounds a lot like some one has had a personal victory ;) :3 them are the good things in life to enjoy the most ,. cough just wait till march cough cough #farcry5 :p :p

[Kraitan.8476]

Just another result of poor balancing..

[Lunateric.3708]

The amount of people that think balance is standardizing every single class is too damn high!

 

Balance has been getting better over time and benchmarks should gradually become more compact as we have seen, there remain big outliers like Weaver and reaper of course but I don't expect things to not change over time and I won't jump on the "instant balance or nerdrage" bandwagon. Truth is

 

* **There will never be the perfect balance**

* **Most people here if not all have 0 clue about what the game needs to be balanced further**