Are changes to a baseline function of BLChests fair without communication?

[DarcShriek.5829]

Is this simply a matter of the chests simply changing, or did their expected value increase significantly?

[kharmin.7683]

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> Is this simply a matter of the chests simply changing, or did their expected value increase significantly?

 

"Significantly" is relative, which is IMO the issue in this thread.

[crashburntoo.7431]

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> Is this simply a matter of the chests simply changing, or did their expected value increase significantly?

 

Some would argue that the guaranteed value has increased because of the new system, and there's some merit to that. The actual "gold" value would be close to the same, on average. The addition of the statuette and the ability to save up for something is where you'd see added value.

 

Ultimately, this is very subjective. I was verbally against the way that the mount adoption licenses were marketed and presented, but I praised Anet for the positive changes to the BLCs. The difference is that I'm a fan of the work they're doing, but not always a fan of how they make it available.

 

With respect to the BLCs and the change just after a key/scrap combo sale, I have mixed feelings. The package was more of a "buy 10 keys and get 2 scraps for free" kind of deal. Ultimately, there wasn't a sale, so much as a promotion. This promotion didn't necessarily encourage players to use the keys right away, but many people would. Given that the keys were purchased at that time and with the understanding that they would open chests with a guaranteed item, 2 common spots and a chance at an uncommon + spot, any player who purchased them would get that or better. They get that if they use it immediately and even more if they waited. I don't think we can call it unfair. Certainly some who used them before the change would have preferred waiting had there been an announcement, but you did get what you paid for.

 

In the end, I think it would be wise to avoid having sales or promotional packages for keys just prior to a change in the BLCs, whether it's a content upgrade or just a seasonal shift. It's certainly a valid point that the consumers should be aware of seasonal change patterns, but the content change, while welcome, wasn't expected. Similar to mountgate, the way this played out made if feel like there may have been some manipulation with the intent of maximizing gemstore sales.

 

It's worth mentioning that they gave away a free key and chest with the content change. It doesn't change the way the promotion and change coincided nor how people feel about that, but let's remember their generosity too. For some, that free chest may have unlocked something better than the last 30 keys or the next 30, while for others, it may have amounted to almost nothing (still get a little coin at the very least). That's the nature of gambling.

[elrin.4750]

It doesn't matter if people boycott the gem store. As long as you are playing the game, ArenaNet is winning. THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS (just like the casinos).

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > Is this simply a matter of the chests simply changing, or did their expected value increase significantly?

>

> "Significantly" is relative, which is IMO the issue in this thread.

 

I think it's more complicated than that, actually.

The chests changed in a fundamental way that has been long requested by frequent consumers, and those who bought a lot of keys two to four weeks ago feel that they overspent. And they blame ANet for the absence of any hint or warning that this sea change was about to take place.

 

****

 

One of the things that people have long asked for is to reduce the impact of having bad luck repeatedly. ANet first addressed this ages ago by introducing the ticket scrap system: instead of just dropping tickets, you could get scraps and save up for an eventual ticket. This ensured that you'd see some progress, even if you never got the drop that was preferred at the time.

 

As time passed, the value of the tickets dropped (for all sorts of reasons) and people became more interested in other items relevant to them: nodes, dyes, wardrobe unlocks, contracts, and especially account bound skins (e.g. the elemental sword or baby griffon glider). The chances for many of these are even less than for tickets, but there was no "safety net" and people despaired. In effect, they again asked for ANet to give us some way to ensure that we wouldn't have continual bad luck, that we'd see some way to "eventually" get our goal.

 

The best thing about the current incarnation of the BL chest+key is that nearly everything has this "safety net". 100 keys is the most you need to acquire to ensure you get a home instance node (and one you can choose, to boot). And the community rejoiced.

 

However, many people bought their usual amount of keys in December or early January and some were inspired to spend when there was a discount: 10 keys plus 2 scraps at the same rate-per-key as 5 keys normally cost, without the guaranteed scraps. Some, and perhaps all of those people, might have held their coin until last week had they but known that ANet would change the chests again.

 

****

I don't happen to agree that this is a reasonable complaint: ANet has changed the contents of the chests every 4-8 weeks over the last 16 months. They've made fundamental changes to type of contents regularly since 2012, including the introduction of the "seasonal" packages. And there's never been any warning. And they've also had discounts and offered freebies throughout this time.

 

I bought several gem shop items just before shared inventory slots went on sale, which made my choices obsolete (or at least, a lot less useful to me)... but I'm still happier that we got shared slots sooner rather than having to wait longer for the convenience.

 

So while I understand that people feel they overspent, I think it's better that ANet rolled out this change this month rather than waiting another two months just to prevent any buyer's remorse.

[Klowdy.3126]

The entire system didn't change, only the rewards. If you play the lottery one week, and no one wins, the reward changes by increasing. If someone does win, the reward changes by decreasing. Who is to say if people hold the holiday chests or the new chests in higher regard. ANet should have given more of a heads up, but no one can say for sure how many people would have waited, and how many wish it would have gone longer.

[DarcShriek.5829]

Doesn't seem reasonable to me that Anet should pay people back. While it appears the volatility of the chests have been greatly reduced, I see no evidence that the expected value has changed. I call no foul on Anet's part.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

Here's the thing.

You saw stuff in Winterdays you had to rush and use your keys that was the "Discount"?

Then it's fair. You got what you wanted.

 

Didn't see the crap you wanted? Then you should've saved it until the update. It doesn't matter if they added statuettes or not. You saw something you want/didn't want and you used/waited.

 

The reason I have 48 keys (had 53 but I wanted to waste 5 on the new one to see if I get junk or not) is that I usually hold onto my keys until I see something I want.

Halloween was the last black lion chest that had anything I cared for. I did not want to be stuck with (MY OPINION) the ugly magic glider that I can't sell like I was stuck with the Fallen Balthazar that I never use as I think it's ugly, I did not want the mini Christmas mounts, I did not want the weapon skins that existed around that time either so I waited.

 

That's kind of like as I've stated above about the whole Black Friday/Cyber Monday/Boxing Day/Kill Braham Thursday.

You could've saved your money for maybe a better deal a few months later closer to Christmas, could've waited until something new came out the next year, or you could've spent your money those "deals" days.

 

Nothing unfair as you got what you paid for and used the items when you saw fit.

[Khisanth.2948]

Prices of everything everywhere are subject to change. When you buy an item decide if the price is worth it or not.

 

This reminds me of a thing that came up way too often with Path of Exile players.

 

Player 1 puts an item up for sale.

Player 2 offers X amount to buy it.

Player 1 and 2 exchange the agreed upon amount for the item.

A bit later Player 1 finds out that there is a Player 3 offering 5X for the same item and then proceeds to accuse Player 2 of being a scammer for not offering to play more at the time. -_-

[Ayakaru.6583]

To reply to a bunch of previous posts that can be summarized as followed:

“You should have known the contents are constantly changing, and you opened the 20 chests satisfied with the content at that time.”

 

Yes, i am aware the contents constantly change. Items get added, and loot tables shift.

However, when I opened the chests I did assume a possible change was imminent. One of the level of many changes prior.

Usually one or two unique skins get added, and the seasonal container changes. That seasonal container was a halloween bag, then an istani crate, and then a wintersday box. Given everything else i expected some kind of season 4 crate, or a Joko Awareness package or something silly. So that was within the realms of expectation.

 

What was not, however, within the realms of expectations, was the fact anet would randomly make a baseline change to the chests. By adding the statuettes they did not change the contents in the same way a normal BL chest update occurs, but they made a baseline improvement. On top of the container change to mini-jackal and some skins added to the loottable.

 

This whole topic is not about the regular contents, because the average wintersday gift was only slightly less worth than the mini-jackals in terms of liquid gold. But its about the addition of the statuettes which is a function update of the chests, and thus an increase if the BASELINE value of the chests. As a result, anet promoted a sale, and without any hint that something like statuettes were coming, it was **impossible** for anyone to even consider the chests would be updated with more than a minor change and a new seasonal container.

 

This whole topic is entirely about the addition of the statuettes, and not the minor changes in the loot table. It is my _opinion_ that the addition of statuettes was too big to be done without any form of communication, as its a form of marketing balance patch. You may agree, or not, but to me it feels like anet made a poor call in order of events, which is pretty harmful PR. I know feel paranoid about the gemstore and probably won’t be buying keys anymore for a little while. I will, probably, eventually buy them again, but at the moment I am disapointed in the course of events, which leads to a lose-lose situation for both me and anet.

[DarcShriek.5829]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> To reply to a bunch of previous posts that can be summarized as followed:

> “You should have known the contents are constantly changing, and you opened the 20 chests satisfied with the content at that time.”

>

> Yes, i am aware the contents constantly change. Items get added, and loot tables shift.

> However, when I opened the chests I did assume a possible change was imminent. One of the level of many changes prior.

> Usually one or two unique skins get added, and the seasonal container changes. That seasonal container was a halloween bag, then an istani crate, and then a wintersday box. Given everything else i expected some kind of season 4 crate, or a Joko Awareness package or something silly. So that was within the realms of expectation.

>

> What was not, however, within the realms of expectations, was the fact anet would randomly make a baseline change to the chests. By adding the statuettes they did not change the contents in the same way a normal BL chest update occurs, but they made a baseline improvement. On top of the container change to mini-jackal and some skins added to the loottable.

>

> This whole topic is not about the regular contents, because the average wintersday gift was only slightly less worth than the mini-jackals in terms of liquid gold. But its about the addition of the statuettes which is a function update of the chests, and thus an increase if the BASELINE value of the chests. As a result, anet promoted a sale, and without any hint that something like statuettes were coming, it was **impossible** for anyone to even consider the chests would be updated with more than a minor change and a new seasonal container.

>

> This whole topic is entirely about the addition of the statuettes, and not the minor changes in the loot table. It is my _opinion_ that the addition of statuettes was too big to be done without any form of communication, as its a form of marketing balance patch. You may agree, or not, but to me it feels like anet made a poor call in order of events, which is pretty harmful PR. I know feel paranoid about the gemstore and probably won’t be buying keys anymore for a little while. I will, probably, eventually buy them again, but at the moment I am disapointed in the course of events, which leads to a lose-lose situation for both me and anet.

 

As you say, you are aware of the constantly changing nature of the chests. You knew when the festival was ending and you probably figured the chests would change as they usually do at the end of festivals. You could have held on to the keys. You weren't required to use the keys immediately. Anet didn't sell you chests, they sold you keys.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> To reply to a bunch of previous posts that can be summarized as followed:

> “You should have known the contents are constantly changing, and you opened the 20 chests satisfied with the content at that time.”

>

> Yes, i am aware the contents constantly change. Items get added, and loot tables shift.

> However, when I opened the chests I did assume a possible change was imminent. One of the level of many changes prior.

> Usually one or two unique skins get added, and the seasonal container changes. That seasonal container was a halloween bag, then an istani crate, and then a wintersday box. Given everything else i expected some kind of season 4 crate, or a Joko Awareness package or something silly. So that was within the realms of expectation.

>

> What was not, however, within the realms of expectations, was the fact anet would randomly make a baseline change to the chests. By adding the statuettes they did not change the contents in the same way a normal BL chest update occurs, but they made a baseline improvement. On top of the container change to mini-jackal and some skins added to the loottable.

>

> This whole topic is not about the regular contents, because the average wintersday gift was only slightly less worth than the mini-jackals in terms of liquid gold. But its about the addition of the statuettes which is a function update of the chests, and thus an increase if the BASELINE value of the chests. As a result, anet promoted a sale, and without any hint that something like statuettes were coming, it was **impossible** for anyone to even consider the chests would be updated with more than a minor change and a new seasonal container.

>

> This whole topic is entirely about the addition of the statuettes, and not the minor changes in the loot table. It is my _opinion_ that the addition of statuettes was too big to be done without any form of communication, as its a form of marketing balance patch. You may agree, or not, but to me it feels like anet made a poor call in order of events, which is pretty harmful PR. I know feel paranoid about the gemstore and probably won’t be buying keys anymore for a little while. I will, probably, eventually buy them again, but at the moment I am disapointed in the course of events, which leads to a lose-lose situation for both me and anet.

 

You are, of course, free to be disappointed. And given your expectations, I can't imagine how you would feel any other way.

 

But honestly, do you really think that there wouldn't be some vocal subset of players that wouldn't have been upset based on the change? Let's say they had announced the new loot table on January 2 (when Wintersday ended) to drop on the 22nd (rather than the 9th, as it did). Then of course, people who bought 10-with-two-bonus-scraps might have held off and been able to make a more-informed decision.

 

But what about those who bought them in December? Aren't they equally entitled to a heads up? All those folks who got holiday season gift cards and spent them on keys. For them, the answer would be to have made the announcement in November. Then not only does ANet lose all the potential sales for a month, but what about the people who purchased to get in on the Halloween loot table. Didn't they also lose the same opportunity?

 

It's arbitrary where ANet (or any firm) draws the line on announcements versus sales versus promotions versus new & improved. Someone is always going to be disappointed.

 

And what about people who spent 100 gems on Vials of Dye, for a small chance at an Exclusive Dye, only to find the TP prices dropping below 10 gold for about 20 of the colors, i.e. under 40 gems for a guaranteed chance.

 

So I'm not saying "you should have known." I'm saying that ANet's behavior is consistent with their past practices. You're not crazy to be disappointed, but neither is ANet crazy to have implemented the changes as they did.

 

For me, the bottom line is that they updated the chests to be much more like people have been asking: for a huge assortment of items, they've removed the possibility of suffering unreasonably bad luck. I think that's good for the game, for the community, and probably for ANet, too. I further think it's better that ANet implement that change sooner rather than later; I'd rather have a few people grumpy in January so that everyone purchasing now has a better sense of what they are getting.

[Bunter.3795]

> @"Swoll.1483" said:

> It is extremely deceptive of them, and I'm requesting a refund through my CC (little good it will do). If/when that fails, I've resolved to never spend another dime in their store. I've always been of the mind if you like the game you should support it but after being taken advantage of in this regard I have no interest in supporting the company further.

>

> I would also like to point out that I love this game, I feel it is the best on the market, and I am a fanboy in every sense of the word. But this store 'move' was extremely disheartening to me over all and I'm just sad about it.

 

BTW a chargeback with your credit card will cause your account to be blocked. If the CC company even agrees with you, you purchased gems from Anet and you got those gems so there is no refund needed or even warranted.

[Etienne.3049]

Did you actually get any less than you expected at the time you decided to buy the keys?

You knew (or could have known) what was in the boxes at the time and, presumably, got exactly what you (should have) expected. Which, given that you did buy and use the keys, you decided was a good deal.

Unless anything that you did get from the chest has massively decreased in value because of the larger than usual change to the chests I can't see any valid complaint here.

 

It looks to me like: You knew what you were buying, you got what you bought, and now you're complaining you didn't get more than you bought.

 

And regarding your poll, it's not even "the risk of gambling", it's you getting exactly what you bought.

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

 

> And what about people who spent 100 gems on Vials of Dye, for a small chance at an Exclusive Dye, only to find the TP prices dropping below 10 gold for about 20 of the colors, i.e. under 40 gems for a guaranteed chance.

 

...or those of us who spent 150 gold on an exclusive dye in the TP, just to find the price dropped to 21 gold two days later...

 

Life is full of small regrets and disappointments and missed opportunities and if-onlies. Best thing to do is let it pass. Grumble a little if it makes you feel better. (I'm not going to forget that dye purchase any time soon.) But in the large scheme of things, this is a very small thing.

[Bunter.3795]

I'd love to see the lines at the gas stations by all the people claiming this was "unfair" or whatever after the price in gas decreases. Do you go back the next day and ask for a refund because the price decreased over night? I don't think so.

 

You got what you bought, 10 keys and 2 scraps, whether or not you used the keys is up to you.

 

I will agree that yeah, the timing could have been better but in the overall sense of things, it's really a minor thing.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Do keep in mind: It's not the first (nor last, probably), what some consider a 'baseline', change to the Black Lion Chests. One example is the Guaranteed Wardrobe Unlocks. Another is Weapon and Armor Guaranteed Unlocks. In fact, there have been quite a few 'baseline' changes lately. Thus, one might always keep that expectation in mind for upcoming Black Lion Chest changes. If we could all predict the future, we would all be rich, I'd guess. We can, however, make more- or less-considered guesses.

 

Good luck.

[Drecien.4508]

But you knew the bl chests were changing on tuesday. they always change them after an event/festival is over, and always on a tuesday. This isnt a hidden secret. They have done it for years. Dont complain cause you couldnt wait a few days to open chests.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Drecien.4508" said:

> But you knew the bl chests were changing on tuesday. they always change them after an event/festival is over, and always on a tuesday. This isnt a hidden secret. They have done it for years. Dont complain cause you couldnt wait a few days to open chests.

 

As said before (many times), the expectation was the change of the seasonal contents. The addition of statuettes was not a seasonal change.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Drecien.4508" said:

> > But you knew the bl chests were changing on tuesday. they always change them after an event/festival is over, and always on a tuesday. This isnt a hidden secret. They have done it for years. Dont complain cause you couldnt wait a few days to open chests.

>

> As said before (many times), the expectation was the change of the seasonal contents. The addition of statuettes was not a seasonal change.

 

And as others have said, it wasn't an unprecedented change. I get that you're disappointed. I'm hoping that you get that doesn't mean it was unfair. I hope you agree that it was a positive change for the contents and that it was better that ANet implemented it sooner rather than later. That changes the concern to "what would be the least painful way to roll it out, for the greatest number of people?"

 

Or put another way, some group of BL Key purchasers was bound to be frustrated by just having missed out. Why is the group that bought during the the last week of 2017/first week of 2018 any different than the groups that bought earlier?

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Swoll.1483" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > Thinking on it, what's the difference between this and Boxing Day/ Black Friday/Cyber Monday/Ghastly Tuesday?

> > >

> > > They give a sale/good deal (or so people think) just before releasing a newer/better thing.

> >

> > The point is, the question here is "Did people get the value for keys they used" ... well, people did because when they opened those chests AT THAT TIME, they knew what they could get; the decision to use those keys AT THAT TIME, was theirs; they could have held onto them to gamble on better offerings in the future. It's nonsense to complain that there was better value from a future offering, so Anet is being dishonest or unfair. This thread is just sour grapes.

>

> The point is, which you seem to continually miss, is that holding a promotion for an item before you drastically change/upgrade it is deceptive and rubs people the wrong way. Everything else you're talking about is moot.

 

Ah, you mean something that you learn in Marketing 101 and is used by almost ALL business in the real world? Yes, I see it all the time, something is put on discount to entice sales and after the sales either an improved version or better yet, a new sale with additional bonuses comes out. Perfectly normal and very common.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Bunter.3795" said:

> I'd love to see the lines at the gas stations by all the people claiming this was "unfair" or whatever after the price in gas decreases. Do you go back the next day and ask for a refund because the price decreased over night? I don't think so.

 

I'm happy to point out your analogy is very bad. Gas prices are mostly dictated by worldwide oil market. Meanwhile gemstore prices and its content are 100% arbitrary decisions.

 

[Mourningcry.9428]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Bunter.3795" said:

> > I'd love to see the lines at the gas stations by all the people claiming this was "unfair" or whatever after the price in gas decreases. Do you go back the next day and ask for a refund because the price decreased over night? I don't think so.

>

> I'm happy to point out your analogy is very bad. Gas prices are mostly dictated by worldwide oil market. Meanwhile gemstore prices and its content are 100% arbitrary decisions.

>

 

If by arbitrary, you mean intentionally set mostly according to various pricing and marketing analysis, then yep, completely arbitrary.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Bunter.3795" said:

> > > I'd love to see the lines at the gas stations by all the people claiming this was "unfair" or whatever after the price in gas decreases. Do you go back the next day and ask for a refund because the price decreased over night? I don't think so.

> >

> > I'm happy to point out your analogy is very bad. Gas prices are mostly dictated by worldwide oil market. Meanwhile gemstore prices and its content are 100% arbitrary decisions.

> >

>

> If by arbitrary, you mean intentionally set mostly according to various pricing and marketing analysis, then yep, completely arbitrary.

 

Yes, arbitrary. Because nothing forces them to make prices this way. Meanwhile gas station won't sell you gas for 1,50$ when oil is 3,00$

[Mourningcry.9428]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Mourningcry.9428" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Bunter.3795" said:

> > > > I'd love to see the lines at the gas stations by all the people claiming this was "unfair" or whatever after the price in gas decreases. Do you go back the next day and ask for a refund because the price decreased over night? I don't think so.

> > >

> > > I'm happy to point out your analogy is very bad. Gas prices are mostly dictated by worldwide oil market. Meanwhile gemstore prices and its content are 100% arbitrary decisions.

> > >

> >

> > If by arbitrary, you mean intentionally set mostly according to various pricing and marketing analysis, then yep, completely arbitrary.

>

> Yes, arbitrary. Because nothing forces them to make prices this way. Meanwhile gas station won't sell you gas for 1,50$ when oil is 3,00$

 

Yep, nothing at all... nothing like salaries, benefits, rent, infrastructure or silly stuff like that. Why would a company sell software (items) for less than the cost to develop them.