HoT classes vs PoF classes

[Zlater.6789]

It seems like all of the balance is explicitly making HoT builds progressively worse than PoF. Looking at the balance patches so far and the leaked patches, it seems like the only things getting buffed are the PoF specializations.

 

From what I can see:

 

Scrapper = useless

Tempest = nothing vs weaver

Herald = useless except for HK xD

Daredevil = I think thief is dead overall

Reaper = literally a bigger meme than tidepods

 

Chrono = getting gutted

Druid = getting gutted

Berserker = good

Dragon Hunter = good

 

Then we have PoF

 

Holosmith = super flexible dps, absolutely rocking it atm.

Weaver = 46k dps large hitbox.

Renegade = high dps... check... stronk support... check

Scourge = king of wing 5

Mirage = what's dat broken deeps? Oh its a mirage

Soulbeast = yeah this one is just good, versatile and dependable.

Fire brand = talking one of the highest dps specs and one of the strongest future support specs?

 

Spell Breaker = it's actually almost there strangely, but not quite.

Deadeye = well, I think the uselessness of this spec justifies the op'ness of everything else PoF has.

 

I don't know, but as far as I can tell it seems that all of the Hot specs are slowly getting trashed while the PoF specs are getting tonnes of love. Do you support this design direction? It seems that a lot of the pressure for this is coming from the vocal parts of the community, what does everyone else think?

 

[Malediktus.9250]

Elite specs are Anets way to introduce pay to win. Every expansion will make it worse

[Dahkeus.8243]

What changes are you talking about with Druid getting “gutted”? So far, it’s stayed a staple of raid groups and even has might sharing now.

 

Also, the changes to chrono Don’t mean much yet. It’s so far and away a staple of raid groups that even with heavy changes, it will likely remain a staple of raid groups.

 

So without your speculation about what Chrono and Druid changes there will be, there’s5 solid HoT specs vs 7 PoF ones. Consider that Druid and Chrono are about as close to mandatory as it gets right now, that’s not a really big difference.

[CptAurellian.9537]

They're nerfing chrono for good reason and where exactly are they gutting druid? As far as the rest is concerned, I think that some HoT specs suffer from general design issues (scrapper, herald) or specific factors (tempest being replaced by a spec that's still focused on power damage was stupid) that make them unattractive for instanced PvE. Daredevil is mainly a numbers thing (don't forget they made staff #2 playable not so long ago) and reaper ... well, I guess that's the ancient necro factor. The devs certainly could and should do better balancing for the old elite specs, but it isn't as horrible as you make it sound.

[Turin.6921]

> @"Zlater.6789" said:

> It seems like all of the balance is explicitly making HoT builds progressively worse than PoF. Looking at the balance patches so far and the leaked patches, it seems like the only things getting buffed are the PoF specializations.

 

> I don't know, but as far as I can tell it seems that all of the Hot specs are slowly getting trashed while the PoF specs are getting tonnes of love. Do you support this design direction? It seems that a lot of the pressure for this is coming from the vocal parts of the community, what does everyone else think?

>

 

You are judging things only taking high challenge instance PvE into account. Which is only one game mode of many and not the only one selling expansions. In open world that is probably the majority of players, and any instance PvE expect T4 and raids none of these matter really and everything is viable. Thus the assessment that this is an actual strategy is false. They do not balance the game only looking at raids.

 

But even in looking at raids:

The chrono nerf is quite reasonable and it will not change its state as the best tank. They are just trying to open support to other classes as well. Chrono is the only mirror class left in raiding groups. I do not see how the druid is gutted. Chrono and druid will still be taking at least 1 spot in most groups.

 

You are also ignoring the tempest as a potential healer that works well as a black kiter or in SH groups since druids are more focused on pushing. Daredevil can still do fine DPS.

 

So you have Chrono, Druid, Zerk required in any groups, DH a great burst DPS choice and Daredevil and condi reaper as viable ok choices.

Also healer tempest and herald useful situational.

The scrapper was also never supposed to be a PvE Spec (even though they gutted him on PvP but thats a different discussion).

 

And in the PoF side you have Weaver, Holo, Renegade, firebrand, scourge. SB and mirage (which is good but only exceptional in places like Cairn or Matt) as DPS classes that are great but as DPS classes can be interchangeable with any other viable one from HoT.

 

Thats what 5 (or 6) vs 7, on which the 3 of the ones from HoT being basically mandatory. So the situation is not as serious as you make it.

 

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Zlater.6789" said:

> Reaper = literally a bigger meme than tidepods


[narcx.3570]

> @"Zlater.6789" said:

> From what I can see:

>

> Scrapper = useless

> Tempest = nothing vs weaver

> Herald = useless except for HK xD

> Daredevil = I think thief is dead overall

> Reaper = literally a bigger meme than tidepods

>

 

Condi DD is still a top pick in a couple of raid encounters and both it and Power DD are respectable in several others.

 

And tempest is still used quite a bit as a third healer in the PUG scene for fights like Matt, Desmina, and River.

 

> Chrono = getting gutted

 

Distortion sharing aside... The upcoming changes are mostly doom, gloom, and overreaction from the community. Honestly, with a few trait adjustments, Chrono's probably going to be better than ever at quickness and alacrity uptime after the patch.

[Nayaru.4716]

I'm not going to speak for all the classes just for DH's "Good" rating there. In the game modes I play it's still one of the most desirable classes. I play everything but PvP/WvW and I haven't been doing much raiding, everywhere else a power DH is freaking awesome, another one or two DH's and who even needs anything else to do the content outside of the above.

[Henrik.7560]

Chrono is a viable support and dps spec currently.

Druid can share might and offensive buffs while healing or providing 16-17k dps.

DD is decent

Berserker remains outstanding and required in every group for unique buffs and competant dps.

DH remains very good, strong burst, decent sustained dps vs small hitbox

Scrapper, Tempest, Reaper, and Herald are lacklusters atm, though power herald received interesting buffs.

[Despond.2174]

Umm what?

 

Druid = Gods

DH = Gods

Zerker = Good

Staff DD = Fantastic

Chrono = Still good

Reaper = Average, still fine in fractals.

Herald = SubparDPS, but has a solid healing option.

Scrapper: Agreed

Tempest = Good, fresh air still great for it's very basic rotation.

 

It's not even remotely as bleak as you're post suggests. Yeah overall POF is better, it's the new expansion, but everything else is not obsolete. I still play many of the HoT builds because they are better in many game modes.

[blambidy.3216]

I laughed when you said thief is useless. Daredevil staff Kicks butt in fractals. The dps is underrated. As much as what people think. If I am ever down it takes the team three times longer to get down a mob then a thief. Thieves kill much faster then most people think.

 

Daredevil is beast. D/p in pvp is still better then deadeye in pvp. If you ever encounter it just hide for a second and then when you see him steal and murder the deadeye. They suck up close.

 

Druid gutted? Ummmmmm druid is still the best healer in the game no matter what people say. U need a Druid in raids. Especially if there are hiccups. When everyone drops Druid can instant revive without restarting the raid. Healing is still better then other classes.

 

Last time I remember ele could do 40k without using weaver soooooo? I remember you could do 40k with just using regular specs.

 

Ranger has always been best and condi as far as I rember even without soul beast. Soul beast just amped it a little.

 

I agree I do wish arenanet would work on balancing the old elites too though however as far as better? No. Since they are new people think they are better.

[Sorin Noroku.5342]

so, since it’s a necropost... let’s give an update of changes since OP posted.

 

HEART OF THORNS

> Scrapper = useless

Has a healer option on SC

> Tempest = nothing vs weaver

Scepter tempest has come back

> Herald = useless except for HK xD

Now is a viable off healer and buffer! (Though still kinda meh)

> Daredevil = I think thief is dead overall

Going strong

> Reaper = literally a bigger meme than tidepods

Doing just fine! Power reaper is seen in a lot now!

> Chrono = getting gutted

Never was gutted, now is easier than ever! Just as strong

> Druid = getting gutted

Still never saw this being gutted, super strong

> Berserker = good

Still true, and base war is too!

> Dragon Hunter = good

Kinda “meh” now.. not seen much.

 

PATH OF FIRE

> Holosmith = super flexible dps, absolutely rocking it atm.

Still same

> Weaver = 46k dps large hitbox.

Damage dropped off, now it uses a sword!!

> Renegade = high dps... check... stronk support... check

Still “check”, alacrity share is better

> Scourge = king of wing 5

Had a heavy heavy hit, but bounced back with solid support

> Mirage = what's dat broken deeps? Oh its a mirage

Still a good dps class

> Soulbeast = yeah this one is just good, versatile and dependable.

Kinda “meh” now, but not terrible.

> Fire brand = talking one of the highest dps specs and one of the strongest future support specs?

Firebrand dropped HARD imo, support still kinda there. People still trying for FB+Ren.

> Spell Breaker = it's actually almost there strangely, but not quite.

Still somewhat true.. viable but there’s better options

> Deadeye = well, I think the uselessness of this spec justifies the op'ness of everything else PoF has.

Is now meta.

 

 

Think that wraps up necro-post nicely!

 

[Clyan.1593]

Isn't Druid Ranger with Harrier stats meta for raids?

OP, are you talking about PVP, WVW or PVE?

 

EDIT: Necro post, nvm

[zealex.9410]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> They're nerfing chrono for good reason and where exactly are they gutting druid? As far as the rest is concerned, I think that some HoT specs suffer from general design issues (scrapper, herald) or specific factors (tempest being replaced by a spec that's still focused on power damage was stupid) that make them unattractive for instanced PvE. Daredevil is mainly a numbers thing (don't forget they made staff #2 playable not so long ago) and reaper ... well, I guess that's the ancient necro factor. The devs certainly could and should do better balancing for the old elite specs, but it isn't as horrible as you make it sound.

 

Well i mean, weaver is more of a dps spec than tempest. Tempest screams support spec.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > Dragon Hunter = good

> Kinda “meh” now.. not seen much.

Actually it's quite good, has an amazing burst, seen quite often both in fractals and raids.

 

[Sorin Noroku.5342]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > > Dragon Hunter = good

> > Kinda “meh” now.. not seen much.

> Actually it's quite good, has an amazing burst, seen quite often both in fractals and raids.

>

 

I raid a LOT and rarely see them anymore compared to other classes. And it’s still “meh” when ya compare to others

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > > > Dragon Hunter = good

> > > Kinda “meh” now.. not seen much.

> > Actually it's quite good, has an amazing burst, seen quite often both in fractals and raids.

> >

>

> I raid a LOT and rarely see them anymore compared to other classes. And it’s still “meh” when ya compare to others

 

Well, recently there was a record kill on kc that was using dragonhunters, soulbeasts and weavers as dps so they cannot be bad right?

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Tempest is absolutely awesome. Auramancer is fun and super easy to play and you are extremely tanky without losing a lot of DPS and helping your party with lots of unique auras.

 

I hate this negativity all the time. You present the old elite especs as if they aren't used at all and totally useless. In reality they are played a lot and most people enjoy them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > > > Dragon Hunter = good

> > > Kinda “meh” now.. not seen much.

> > Actually it's quite good, has an amazing burst, seen quite often both in fractals and raids.

> >

>

> I raid a LOT and rarely see them anymore compared to other classes. And it’s still “meh” when ya compare to others

 

Since W1 and W4 are the most commonly run Wings, and Dragonhunter isn't very good at W4 (Base Guardian can be better) I can understand why DH popularity might be down. Plus a lot of the raid community members don't know how to think for themselves. If someone for whatever reasons says "DH is weak", it will spread very quickly and they will be treated as being weak. The raid community (especially pugs) is really gullible.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > > > > Dragon Hunter = good

> > > > Kinda “meh” now.. not seen much.

> > > Actually it's quite good, has an amazing burst, seen quite often both in fractals and raids.

> > >

> >

> > I raid a LOT and rarely see them anymore compared to other classes. And it’s still “meh” when ya compare to others

>

> Since W1 and W4 are the most commonly run Wings, and Dragonhunter isn't very good at W4 (Base Guardian can be better) I can understand why DH popularity might be down. Plus a lot of the raid community members don't know how to think for themselves. If someone for whatever reasons says "DH is weak", it will spread very quickly and they will be treated as being weak. The raid community (especially pugs) is really gullible.

 

Also another reason why dragonhunter is not that popular is this:

If someone starts raiding then they most likely start as dps. Power classes are much easier to gear then condi classes. (berserker extocis vs viper exotic/ascended......, ascended berserker trinkets vs viper trinkets.). Up until recently there were only 3 good power dps options: Weaver, holo and dragonhunter. Out of those, weaver is too hard for begginers, holo is in the middle but if i remember correctly eng is not that popular class. Dragonhunter is the easiest out of them and so it was considered begginer raid dps. But recently more power options were added to top tier, namely soulbeast, daredevil and deadeye. They bring great dps but are not that complicated as weaver so I guess most raiders now gear deadeye instead of DH.

 

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Tempest fresh air is the "safer" elem build, it doesn't have the 50k/s burst of weaver but for fractals pugs constant >25k, 40% protection, mid range (Last Laugh, Social Awkwardness, etc) stab, some support traits and skills...

Actually I prefere tempest rather than weaver that die stupidly from poison fields, the balls at arks, or fail all his aoe at Ensolyss etc.

[Sorin Noroku.5342]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Sorin Noroku.5342" said:

> > > > > Dragon Hunter = good

> > > > Kinda “meh” now.. not seen much.

> > > Actually it's quite good, has an amazing burst, seen quite often both in fractals and raids.

> > >

> >

> > I raid a LOT and rarely see them anymore compared to other classes. And it’s still “meh” when ya compare to others

>

> Well, recently there was a record kill on kc that was using dragonhunters, soulbeasts and weavers as dps so they cannot be bad right?

 

Oh trust me, I 100% love guardian, and played it myself last night. It’s not bad, just... there...

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Well, recently there was a record kill on kc that was using dragonhunters, soulbeasts and weavers as dps so they cannot be bad right?

 

Its not bad and i actually like playing Power Soulbeast. Its fun but not really there imo. Soulbeast got 25k towards the end of that fight, which is still 2k lower than the DH. The reason Soulbeast was taken is the insane scaling those classes (Ele and DH) get with One Wolf Pack in combination with leader of the pack + the extra damage from the 1 orb at KC.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Well, recently there was a record kill on kc that was using dragonhunters, soulbeasts and weavers as dps so they cannot be bad right?

>

> Its not bad and i actually like playing Power Soulbeast. Its fun but not really there imo. Soulbeast got 25k towards the end of that fight, which is still 2k lower than the DH. The reason Soulbeast was taken is the insane scaling those classes (Ele and DH) get with One Wolf Pack in combination with leader of the pack + the extra damage from the 1 orb at KC.

 

I know that. I just wanted to point out that they could have taken weavers instead of DHs and still took DHs so there must be a reason for that choice. (I think it was answered in coments of that video but I forgot that).

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> I know that. I just wanted to point out that they could have taken weavers instead of DHs and still took DHs so there must be a reason for that choice. (I think it was >answered in coments of that video but I forgot that).

 

Well yeah, the insane scaling with One Wolf Pack, Higher DPS than Holo or Thief on this boss and good cleave for the statues. This allowed the Weavers to go Sword instead of Staff, gaining more DPS.