So its official now then.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

 

vs power - 1 well timed dodge = 0 to minimal damage, the rest you can shrug off or out evade... Assuming they stay. (Also they can't blink and decoy twice unless chrono.) I don't consider that "no counter play".

 

vs condi - more passive application than is possible to avoid while contesting point and winning long term by essentially keeping application through all opposing resources.

 

I don't disagree that there isn't a problem with this game, and possibly both builds, assuming you refer to Chaos' super-speed, (because I see 0 problems with power mirage) but yes; with the amount of evasion, blocks, invluns, and the like (signet of stone, endure pain, etc.) in this game I am FAR more willing to fight the thing where I push them off point simply from having map awareness, and good anticipation. The ONLY thing power has that is unhealthy and problematic to the health of the game, is how easy it can run away after whiffing.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I'd defend power mes more quickly than I would condi mirage. I thought so then, and I still do now.

 

People that say that "you should have just adapted to what condi mes used to be" very often seem to omit that **the skills that they used to put burst or condition damage on you often had little telegraph or frequent reapplication time, while maintaining heavy sustain on the class that played it.** Remember, Chaotic Interruption got removed from the game because it could lock you with no warning.

(Some of those people also turn around and have an issue with pistol whip while their whole kit is full of various flavors of invulnerable and blink but that's my hangup and is beside the point.) Staff, Scepter? You can kite all day and the opponent has to burn their cleanses just to stay alive while they try to get to you, at which point you can blink away and do it all over. Even if you get hit you're probably running carrion, so you have a nice HP buffer to press your distortion or staff 2, or block, or press a distortion button, or a blind button if you're traited for that. Or a stun button if you're traited for that, or dodge and negate any followup damage you may receive. Or press another distortion button if you traited for that.

 

Power Mirage/mes? Sure you can nuke from stealth. you whiff though and you're going to be sweating bullets. Its a brittle balance, but its more balanced than what you had.

 

(And __still__ have, for that matter. Condi mirage isnt dead.)

 

No matter what the avenue of "too much" you pick, if your build gives you extreme damage output and extreme sustain on top of it, it needs a nerf. Just because you have the ability to rage out and play something you consider -even worse- for the game doesn't automatically mean that the thing you've resigned yourself to playing is fair. I don't see what you're attempting to get out of using "I could exploit you even harder but I __choose__ to be a degree less exploitative, but if you don't shut up and let me I'm going to omegaexploit you" as an argument. That makes you sound like you've had it too easy.

It just means you need another balance pass until you don't have the ability to build in such a way that your damage delivery isnt reasonably avoidable, and then pair that with a playstyle that requires a significant degree more difficulty to combat than it does to play.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> (Some of those people also turn around and have an issue with pistol whip while their whole kit is full of various flavors of invulnerable and blink but that's my hangup and is beside the point.)

Thief nearly always counters mesmer. That's why most mesmer players complain about anything thief has.

 

> Staff, Scepter? You can kite all day and the opponent has to burn their cleanses just to stay alive while they try to get to you, at which point you can blink away and do it all over.

Except you can't. Sure I can kite 2 reapers on foefire's mid, but try the same against anything else and you will find yourself on your spawn.

 

> Even if you get hit you're probably running carrion, so you have a nice HP buffer

I legit checked what year is it. Condi mirage is using Wanderer or Deadshot for the bleed on crit thing.

 

> to press your distortion or staff 2, or block, or press a distortion button, or a blind button if you're traited for that. Or a stun button if you're traited for that, or dodge and negate any followup damage you may receive. Or press another distortion button if you traited for that.

Meta condi mirage doesn't even run blind trait. You also said distortion twice.

[Math.5123]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"Genesis.5169" people dont like conditions for several reasons.

> 1 its another thing they have to look out for and keep in mind. You dont have to THINK when and how to cleanse if condi builds arent viable. makes the game easy and more newb friendly.

> 2 When you die to condi, they pretend that nothing hit them and just broken condi kills them for free, while in fact they ate 5+ abilities. Its much easier to pretend that you played properly and died cuz X broken then accept that you kitten up.

 

I think a lot of the issue stems from how condis are applied currently. Both mirage and Weaver has a very passive application of condis.

 

One can get chased with 3 clones up, dodge and borderline soak you in 7 different conditions. Weaver literally just stands next to you while dodging. Both of these classes apply the majority of their condis while dodging. So did Condi thief.

 

Core necro is another beast. Applying both fear and triple corrupt with no animation, instant cast traits / skills which is also just unfun and uninteractive.

Classes like mallyx rev, Condi war and what have you are "more fair" in the application of how condis are applied.

 

My issue with mesmer is more how they permanently sit at 8 boons, more so than the damage.

[Odik.4587]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> One can get chased with 3 clones up, dodge and borderline soak you in 7 different conditions.

Where can I see this 7 condis from clones only?

>My issue with **mesmer** is more how they **permanently **sit at 8 boons, more so than the damage.

Did you forget the meaning of that word - "permanently" ?

Specially watched last mAT there was few moments when Misha peaked at 8 boons thanks to AT, do you realize you complained about everything mesmer had on chaos GM (from wiki "Chaos is a core specialization for the mesmer that focuses on improving defense and the application of random boons and conditions.It does what it supposed to do)? CI/PU and now BD simultaniously with AT?

Mesmer build diversity went from dozen of builds to just two that depends on chaos. They did a good job of reducing mesmer build diversity to zero instead of bringing build diversity to others.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> I legit checked what year is it. Condi mirage is using Wanderer or Deadshot for the bleed on crit thing.

I stand corrected, fair enough.

> Meta condi mirage doesn't even run blind trait. You also said distortion twice.

Three times. It was a joke.

 

 

[Genesis.5169]

Man alot of disinformation about mesmers.

Guy said we have 7 buffs perma and 7 conditions.

 

Idk how to combat that. Just gonna ignore all the lies and slander and just say all condition builds are bad not just mirage i play mirage so it hits closer to home. Take note of the very wrong opinions Anet, and the fact you listening to the folks who said mesmers have permanent boons and 7 conditions.

 

By all means please share more this is as much for me as it is for anet.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> Man alot of disinformation about mesmers.

> Guy said we have 7 buffs perma and 7 conditions.

>

> Idk how to combat that. Just gonna ignore all the lies and slander and just say all condition builds are bad not just mirage i play mirage so it hits closer to home. Take note of the very wrong opinions Anet, and the fact you listening to the folks who said mesmers have permanent boons and 7 conditions.

>

> By all means please share more this is as much for me as it is for anet.

 

The whole reason condi mirages were so aggravating to fight (and remain largely that way) is because the avenues they use to deal their damage are less avoidable, less telegraphed, and more frequently applied than raw burst, while their playstyle remains largely passive and forgiving to the user in the sense that cc does not guarantee they will even need to spend utilities to avoid follow up damage.

 

Of course they don't sit permanently at 8 boons. they also dont hit you with 7 conditions at once. Those things not being true doesn't mean the playstyle they were afforded throughout their patches was balanced or fair for anyone that needed to fight them.

 

Competitive design that allows you to play a ranged game without clear telegraphs, but also allows you multiple avenues to avoid damage should you fail to play the ranged game properly and let someone cc you/get in close is poor, period. Classes with good melee game should have limited options to deal with range, and ranged classes should have limited options to deal with melee. condition mirages (and soulbeasts, but that's another problem entirely) have both.

 

And condi mirage isn't even dead. It's just not holding __as much__ attention as it did before because it's not __as easy__.

 

 

[MyPuppy.8970]

Issue is just soundless stinky farts. Fighting condi mirage is a matter of reaching the one whose farts come from while you have to breathe the air in the room. Well they can be loud and clear on condi weaver though, but this one has to sit on your face.

Be it power or condi, constant pressure should not be possible with constant damage avoidance or high sustainability. You can have both, but at the cost of reduced effectiveness. People would rather fight a Power Mes or FA ele because they have much less room for mistakes. Though I'd remove any passive safety net. Burst at your own risk.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

>

> Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

>

> GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

 

Once again, Mesmer Profession has absolutely nothing to do with guild wars 2 Toxicity and is clearly must not be blamed for it.

 

Here is Original-Mesmer Profession in Legendary Guild Wars-

 


 

Gwen as Mesmer Profession was not a Toxic Killing Kitten in Guild Wars nor was she was a Toxic +1 shot machine either. In fact, her world of Guild Wars did not harbor any of guild wars 2 Toxicity: she would immediately eliminate its threat with Ascalon.

 

Gwen is a strong kind-hearted, strong-will humble, serious and well respected beautiful-spirit kindred-spirit who earned her name and respect for fighting against Injustice and against hate. Yes, Gwen personality was cold at times due to her high standards and to her strong spirit. In fact; she would never tolerate Toxicity or with anything that would ruin Guild Wars and Mesmer Profession image.

 

The blame should be solely directed at Guild Wars 2 Toxicity and how it ruined her identity and her reputation as Guild Wars Heroine

 

To conclude, Please! Respect her naame and her Profession at all costs, no matter what of how guild wars 2 Toxicity portrays her.

 

'Stop Using Her Name To Justify Guild Wars 2 Toxicity!!'

 

'Respect Gwen Thackeray Profession -Mesmer'

 

 

 

--**What Should Be Official Is Honoring Gwen Thackeray By Returning Mesmer Identity**--

 

--**After-all: Mesmer Is Guild Wars**--

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

> >

> > Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

> >

> > GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

>

> Once again, Mesmer Profession has absolutely nothing to do with guild wars 2 Toxicity and is clearly must not be blamed for it.

>

> Here is Original-Mesmer Profession in Legendary Guild Wars-

>

> 

>

> Gwen as Mesmer Profession was not a Toxic Killing Kitten in Guild Wars nor was she was a Toxic +1 shot machine either. In fact, her world of Guild Wars did not harbor any of guild wars 2 Toxicity: she would immediately eliminate its threat with Ascalon.

>

> Gwen is a strong kind-hearted, strong-will humble, serious and well respected beautiful-spirit kindred-spirit who earned her name and respect for fighting against Injustice and against hate. Yes, Gwen personality was cold at times due to her high standards and to her strong spirit. In fact; she would never tolerate Toxicity or with anything that would ruin Guild Wars and Mesmer Profession image.

>

> The blame should be solely directed at Guild Wars 2 Toxicity and how it ruined her identity and her reputation as Guild Wars Heroine

>

> To conclude, Please! Respect her naame and her Profession at all costs, no matter what of how guild wars 2 Toxicity portrays her.

>

> 'Stop Using Her Name To Justify Guild Wars 2 Toxicity!!'

>

> 'Respect Gwen Thackeray Profession -Mesmer'

>

>

>

> --**What Should Be Official Is Honoring Gwen Thackeray By Returning Mesmer Identity**--

>

> --**After-all: Mesmer Is Guild Wars**--

>

 

As a semi regular player of GW1. The GW1 Mesmer is far superior to her GW2 sister, How I wish the devs had stuck with the original spirit of the class.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

> > >

> > > Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

> > >

> > > GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

> >

> > Once again, Mesmer Profession has absolutely nothing to do with guild wars 2 Toxicity and is clearly must not be blamed for it.

> >

> > Here is Original-Mesmer Profession in Legendary Guild Wars-

> >

> > 

> >

> > Gwen as Mesmer Profession was not a Toxic Killing Kitten in Guild Wars nor was she was a Toxic +1 shot machine either. In fact, her world of Guild Wars did not harbor any of guild wars 2 Toxicity: she would immediately eliminate its threat with Ascalon.

> >

> > Gwen is a strong kind-hearted, strong-will humble, serious and well respected beautiful-spirit kindred-spirit who earned her name and respect for fighting against Injustice and against hate. Yes, Gwen personality was cold at times due to her high standards and to her strong spirit. In fact; she would never tolerate Toxicity or with anything that would ruin Guild Wars and Mesmer Profession image.

> >

> > The blame should be solely directed at Guild Wars 2 Toxicity and how it ruined her identity and her reputation as Guild Wars Heroine

> >

> > To conclude, Please! Respect her naame and her Profession at all costs, no matter what of how guild wars 2 Toxicity portrays her.

> >

> > 'Stop Using Her Name To Justify Guild Wars 2 Toxicity!!'

> >

> > 'Respect Gwen Thackeray Profession -Mesmer'

> >

> >

> >

> > --**What Should Be Official Is Honoring Gwen Thackeray By Returning Mesmer Identity**--

> >

> > --**After-all: Mesmer Is Guild Wars**--

> >

>

> As a semi regular player of GW1. The GW1 Mesmer is far superior to her GW2 sister, How I wish the devs had stuck with the original spirit of the class.

 

oh no.

 

mesmer was a pita back in gw1.

 

had a friend Fear the Unusual and boy o boi could he make people rage.

 

ruptasaurus rex dominator

 

mesmer was toxic af back then too

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > > We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

> > > >

> > > > GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

> > >

> > > Once again, Mesmer Profession has absolutely nothing to do with guild wars 2 Toxicity and is clearly must not be blamed for it.

> > >

> > > Here is Original-Mesmer Profession in Legendary Guild Wars-

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> > > Gwen as Mesmer Profession was not a Toxic Killing Kitten in Guild Wars nor was she was a Toxic +1 shot machine either. In fact, her world of Guild Wars did not harbor any of guild wars 2 Toxicity: she would immediately eliminate its threat with Ascalon.

> > >

> > > Gwen is a strong kind-hearted, strong-will humble, serious and well respected beautiful-spirit kindred-spirit who earned her name and respect for fighting against Injustice and against hate. Yes, Gwen personality was cold at times due to her high standards and to her strong spirit. In fact; she would never tolerate Toxicity or with anything that would ruin Guild Wars and Mesmer Profession image.

> > >

> > > The blame should be solely directed at Guild Wars 2 Toxicity and how it ruined her identity and her reputation as Guild Wars Heroine

> > >

> > > To conclude, Please! Respect her naame and her Profession at all costs, no matter what of how guild wars 2 Toxicity portrays her.

> > >

> > > 'Stop Using Her Name To Justify Guild Wars 2 Toxicity!!'

> > >

> > > 'Respect Gwen Thackeray Profession -Mesmer'

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --**What Should Be Official Is Honoring Gwen Thackeray By Returning Mesmer Identity**--

> > >

> > > --**After-all: Mesmer Is Guild Wars**--

> > >

> >

> > As a semi regular player of GW1. The GW1 Mesmer is far superior to her GW2 sister, How I wish the devs had stuck with the original spirit of the class.

>

> oh no.

>

> mesmer was a pita back in gw1.

>

> had a friend Fear the Unusual and boy o boi could he make people rage.

>

> ruptasaurus rex dominator

>

> mesmer was toxic af back then too

 

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > > We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

> > >

> > > Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

> > >

> > > GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

> >

> > Once again, Mesmer Profession has absolutely nothing to do with guild wars 2 Toxicity and is clearly must not be blamed for it.

> >

> > Here is Original-Mesmer Profession in Legendary Guild Wars-

> >

> > 

> >

> > Gwen as Mesmer Profession was not a Toxic Killing Kitten in Guild Wars nor was she was a Toxic +1 shot machine either. In fact, her world of Guild Wars did not harbor any of guild wars 2 Toxicity: she would immediately eliminate its threat with Ascalon.

> >

> > Gwen is a strong kind-hearted, strong-will humble, serious and well respected beautiful-spirit kindred-spirit who earned her name and respect for fighting against Injustice and against hate. Yes, Gwen personality was cold at times due to her high standards and to her strong spirit. In fact; she would never tolerate Toxicity or with anything that would ruin Guild Wars and Mesmer Profession image.

> >

> > The blame should be solely directed at Guild Wars 2 Toxicity and how it ruined her identity and her reputation as Guild Wars Heroine

> >

> > To conclude, Please! Respect her naame and her Profession at all costs, no matter what of how guild wars 2 Toxicity portrays her.

> >

> > 'Stop Using Her Name To Justify Guild Wars 2 Toxicity!!'

> >

> > 'Respect Gwen Thackeray Profession -Mesmer'

> >

> >

> >

> > --**What Should Be Official Is Honoring Gwen Thackeray By Returning Mesmer Identity**--

> >

> > --**After-all: Mesmer Is Guild Wars**--

> >

>

> As a semi regular player of GW1. The GW1 Mesmer is far superior to her GW2 sister, How I wish the devs had stuck with the original spirit of the class.

 

**+10**

 

I completely agree