Discussion about Confusion [merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Irokou.3215" said:

> Unless I am ill-informed

You're not. That last axe fix was just Anet admitting there is a problem but refusing to see (or, at least, _acknowledge_) what the problem was.

The Confusion remains as broken after it as it was before, which is something Anet will have to address eventually. I just hope it will happen sooner than later, before they will break other things trying to "fix away" the consequences of the problem, instead of its source.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

> >

> > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

>

> Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

Yes, you're right. Now it is also about the axe.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Irokou.3215" said:

> > Unless I am ill-informed

> You're not. That last axe fix was just Anet admitting there is a problem but refusing to see (or, at least, _acknowledge_) what the problem was.

> The Confusion remains as broken after it as it was before, which is something Anet will have to address eventually. I just hope it will happen sooner than later, before they will break other things trying to "fix away" the consequences of the problem, instead of its source.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

> > >

> > > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

> >

> > Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

> Yes, you're right. Now it is also about the axe.

 

Not "now". Since the 6th its been about the axe/mirage as well.

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

> >

> > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

>

> Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

 

Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless and seeing that Anet changed it I guess Confusion will stay like this for a long time, at least for this expansion.

 

Still the best action for the game itself would have been to revert the confusion change for PvE.

[Thornum.8607]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > The "This condition remains split between PvE and PvP/WvW" part has unfortunately caused unintended confusion.

> > >

> > > To Clarify: Condition damage contribution of the damage-over-time component of confusion has been removed from ALL formats. 'Remains split' was meant to indicate that the base damage ticks are higher in PvE still, even without condition damage contribution.

> >

> > Ok Karl. First question. Why did you do this in PvE? Especially AFTER you made that condition useful in PvE in the August 2017 Patch?

> >

> > And base damage in PvE is horrible, a damage tick less than 20 in PvE is not good, you could have unsplit the base damage and it wouldn't even matter.

>

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Late to the discussion, but wanted to add my share. Karl, you say you **needed** to make that choice, which obviously is untrue. You **wanted** to make that choice, and rather than going into a discussion of semantics, I want to ask the question of whether that choice truly had to be made? In PvE people were happy with how confusion worked. In PvP I can respect the choice to make it a 'hex' style mechanic (actually, I enthusiastically support that decision). In addition, you guys have shown with increasing frequency that splitting skills based on their game mode is a positive thing. Has it been considered to keep PvE confusion as it was while changing the PvP/WvW mechanics to the 'hex' style, especially taking into account the considerations that were used to make the August 2017 change to confusion (which to my knowledge have not changed since)?

 

Note that I am a casual player, and do not care about damage benchmarks at all. Nerf confusion in any game mode all you want to the level that you're comfortable with. I am simply disappointed that the **feel** of playing my Mirage has changed so significantly. Replacing confusion with torment is not a solution, it's a band-aid. Confusion fits the Mesmer thematically, I have enjoyed using the old version with Glamour builds in WvW (which is why I applaud the recent change), and I have thoroughly enjoyed using confusion on my Mirage in PvE. Can those things not coexist simply because internally you guys decided there was a need to make this choice?

 

_Edits: grammar._

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> I'd rather they didn't try to make it better (and break it even further in the attempt) and just reverted it to pre-patch state for PvE, which is known to work well enough.

>

> I simply don't believe they can make their idea for confusion work in PvE without it having some unintended negative consequences.

 

Agreed. Just give pve their DoT confusion back and make the change apply to pvp/wvw only - and then please replace confusion on axe!

[Oglaf.1074]

Since you’re adamant in keeping Confusion as utter garbage in PvE (as evident by just giving Mirage moar Torment) please do the same to other traits and abilities that currently deal Confusion.

 

You destroyed the condition in PvE and now you have to fix what you done, Anet.

[Oglaf.1074]

Don’t try and do anything fancy.

 

Just do a PvE/PvP split with the PvE version working as pre-patch.

[SaltAndLight.4652]

Especially Mind Blast, mesmers down skill that applies confusion in PvE and Scepter 3.

[Vajra.3157]

Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

 

For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

[Loosmaster.8263]

Both those conditions should have died right along with Scarlet Briar!!!

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

 

I'm with the others on this one. Just revert it to pre-nerf status in PvE. It was working perfectly fine. Why re-invent the wheel?

[Fussion.3247]

I genuinly have a sad feeling having spent my money on Astralaria now. Guess it was fun for a months though.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

> > >

> > > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

> >

> > Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

>

> Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless and seeing that Anet changed it I guess Confusion will stay like this for a long time, at least for this expansion.

>

> Still the best action for the game itself would have been to revert the confusion change for PvE.

 

The best action would be to completely split pve confusion and pvp confusion. Same with pve torment and pvp torment. At least axe mriage is back on track with the torment and the phantasms in the rota witch mostly fixes the issue the confusion change caused in pve.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Fussion.3247" said:

> I genuinly have a sad feeling having spent my money on Astralaria now. Guess it was fun for a months though.

 

Axe for mesmer is good the changes they did made it good again.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Vajra.3157" said:

> Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

>

> For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

 

Its fine tbh the changes put mirage back on track and the torment ticks for the same dmg as bleed on stationary targets making it fine.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

 

Yikes, no. :cry: While it might be a cute way to add synergy for raids, it'd be obnoxious in PvP or for soloing.

 

If Confusion got a rework, I'd support having it treated like Blind. During its duration, if a skill is used, the stacks activate, do damage, then disappear.

Clean, effective for PvP and PvE.

[Thornum.8607]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Vajra.3157" said:

> > Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

> >

> > For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

>

> Its fine tbh the changes put mirage back on track and the torment ticks for the same dmg as bleed on stationary targets making it fine.

 

That is implying that 'everything is fine' when damage benchmarks are back on track. It completely ignores the fact that there are many other sources of confusion that have once again become obsolete in PvE, on top of the fact that many players find confusion to be part of the Mesmer identity. Many players will play a class for its theme, its feel, its visual aspects. Torment simply does not fit the Mesmer identity as well as confusion, and while you might be happy that the benchmarks are back to meta levels, for many people that does not fix the core issue.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> > Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

>

> Yikes, no. :cry: While it might be a cute way to add synergy for raids, it'd be obnoxious in PvP or for soloing.

>

> If Confusion got a rework, I'd support having it treated like Blind. During its duration, if a skill is used, the stacks activate, do damage, then disappear.

> Clean, effective for PvP and PvE.

As someone pointed out before, skill activation as a trigger is useless in PvE for burst type damage, because you usually want to burst the most at the point where the target is stunned and doesn't do anything. It would also make you **not** want to break defiance bars on bosses (because then, again, no damage). Damaging condition that is only good against trash mobs that will go down to autoattacking anyway is a condition wasted.

 

 

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> > > @"BrokenGlass.9356" said:

> > > Make the activated damage tick when hard or soft cc is applied. (for small or large damage respectively)

> >

> > Yikes, no. :cry: While it might be a cute way to add synergy for raids, it'd be obnoxious in PvP or for soloing.

> >

> > If Confusion got a rework, I'd support having it treated like Blind. During its duration, if a skill is used, the stacks activate, do damage, then disappear.

> > Clean, effective for PvP and PvE.

> As someone pointed out before, skill activation as a trigger is useless in PvE for burst type damage, because you usually want to burst the most at the point where the target is stunned and doesn't do anything. It would also make you **not** want to break defiance bars on bosses (because then, again, no damage). Damaging condition that is only good against trash mobs that will go down to autoattacking anyway is a condition wasted.

 

Trust me, I'm not married to the idea. BUT, if ANet wants "purity of purpose" for Confusion, we need to be willing to make concessions and think outside the box.

 

As detailed earlier (possibly on reddit or somewhere else in this thread), condition duration would make the difference between PvP and PvE versions. Possibly also damage scaling to contend with PvE enemies having more HP.

 

PvP version: 2 seconds, does moderate to high damage

PvE version: 4, possibly 5 or 6 seconds base, boosted with Expertise. Breaking a defiance bar usually only puts a boss down for 5 seconds, then it acts. Don't want to get stuck with "useless" Confusion? Stack it during the stun phase (sticking point: Confusion damage would have to have special behavior during those stun phases) or take enough Expertise to extend past it. Make the damage explosive enough, and it'll still be worth it.

 

But, I'd be perfectly fine going back to the way it was. The tick damage was at least close to Bleed, so it was worth using regardless, but it *still* suffered from PvE enemies not attack fast enough or bosses getting stunned. That was *always* an issue with the previous approach.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

> > >

> > > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

> >

> > Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

>

> Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless

Not much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

 

Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

> > > >

> > > > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

> > >

> > > Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

> >

> > Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless

> Not much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

>

> Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.

>

 

Tell me ouside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Thornum.8607" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Vajra.3157" said:

> > > Okay, the way you deal with Confusion, by replacing it with Torment, is just meh. It doesn't solve the problem with Confusion that you've created in PvE. There are also still a lot of traits and skills that involve Confusion. Are you gonna change them, or just leave them useless like that in PvE? You put what you have decided on players without listening to them and giving them a sound reason why Confusion has to be changed back to the oldest version in PvE. If you want to make Confusion like a 'hex' style punishment, then you probably have to change the behaviors of PvE enemies as well. My 'hexes' deal no damage at all to objects and many bosses with long skill activation/cooldown and I have no control over it (Chak Gerent, for example, when it makes rocks falling, it counts as one skill activation). This is the problem of the nature of Confusion that you had actually solved it in the PvE environment, and I just see no reason for reverting this part to the state that it is broken, or complicating things with a bunch of adjustments.

> > >

> > > For now, Torment has a based DPS and you may kite movable enemies around to increase it, which can be a temporary solution. However, I feel it just does not fit Mirage/Mesmer so well thematically. Maybe, it takes time to adapt to what you have forced us to play.

> >

> > Its fine tbh the changes put mirage back on track and the torment ticks for the same dmg as bleed on stationary targets making it fine.

>

> That is implying that 'everything is fine' when damage benchmarks are back on track. It completely ignores the fact that there are many other sources of confusion that have once again become obsolete in PvE, on top of the fact that many players find confusion to be part of the Mesmer identity. Many players will play a class for its theme, its feel, its visual aspects. Torment simply does not fit the Mesmer identity as well as confusion, and while you might be happy that the benchmarks are back to meta levels, for many people that does not fix the core issue.

 

Both fit it equally well. The game aslo has many diff aspects u'd expect diff things to be strong in diff areas. There no issue because confusion isnt useless its still good in pvp and wvw.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > ...seems Anet completely misunderstood the problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > No, it's not about the axe. It's about Confusion. **All** of it in PvE. Don't think you have solved the problem by changing two skills. You didn't.

> > > >

> > > > Its partially about the axe as well. Removing its confusions and giving it torment is a bad change .

> > >

> > > Thing is, if Anet isn't going to change confusion back to its useful state in PvE then changing Axe to applying torment is much better then leaving it with a condition that completely useless

> > Not much better though. It simply masks the problem and lets Anet ignore it for the next half a year (or more). If they hadn't changed the axe, there would have been some hope they'd be forced to reconsider their fail attempt at Confusion rework. Now however they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

> >

> > Duct-taping the crumbling fundaments and pretending it will hold is generally not a good idea. It may help a little, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.

> >

>

> Tell me ouside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion.

 

It killed Condition Core Engineer if I’m not mistaken. (Probably mistaken though)

[noobymaniac.9483]

Confusion mechanically as a heavy dot seems redundant to me. There are 3 conditions that fill that role pretty well. I'm glad the direction Anet is going with the condition. However, if duration was lowered and potency increased for the condition, it could help. Ideally, you would anticipate an attack from a mob/player and slap confusion before they finish the move. This would make the effect timing similar to timing an aegis and make the skill more useful against mobs that attack less often.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Tell me outside of mesmer whats the problem with confusion in pve? Which other class is crippled from the changes to confusion?

 

1. It's a problem with an entire profession. That's enough reason to be concerned about this change.

2. It's *not* exclusively about some meta benchmarks that apply to a smattering of high-end content. "Fixing" axe leaves a glaring hole in something fundamental in condition play. And it touches possible builds in Mesmer, Warrior, Engineer, Ranger, and Revenant.