Confusion nerf in PvE was intended

[Hornet.6357]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

I really don't understand this, Robert Gee made a huge post about how Mesmer was being looked at. You guys only think Boon-Bot Chrono exists or something? Or did you forget that you released a whole dps oriented Elite spec just a few months ago? You guys need to look at your tools from a PvE perspective maybe kiddy script a dps rotation to see how your actions affect certain builds. This was 100% an avoidable blunder.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

>

> Confusion is an iconic condition of the mesmer while torment should have stayed with revenant and necromancer.

>

> Instead of leaving the condition alone for PvE, you've gutted mirage and their utilities/traits that apply confusion (including Jaunt, crystal sands, dune cloak, and riddle of sand on top of the axe and now magic bullet) out of a stubborn view that confusion shouldn't be split in mechancis between PvE and wvw/pvp.

>

> Changes that would have made shatters attractive to condition builds like Cry of Pain with Cry of Frustration have been made worthless as well in PvE. Ineptitude among other condition traits made garbage overnight in PvE. Scepter's Confusing Images made from a decent ability in PvE into an entirely pointless one.

>

> You've essentially made a condition pointless in the most played game format for no reason whatsoever.

>

> There was a reason you changed confusion for PvE. And you reverted to an obsolete state in what is an unjustified turn of events.

>

> Now it will take months of retooling condi mesmer damage output in PvE just because you couldn't keep the mechanical change restricted to pvp formats. What a total waste of development time to needlessly break something that will require further development sources to fix when the obvious solution was a format split.

 

This is spot on. I really can't see the upside to this, Karl. You seem to be expressing the opinion that confusion must work a certain way, even while acknowledging that it simply will not work in PvE. Now you're telling me that in this crusade to make confusion "right", you've broken the class I've been enjoying since PoF released and you're telling me you're going to take your sweet time fixing it. Why, Karl? Can we please get a dev on here to start talking about this? What information are we missing that will make sense of this incomprehensibly stupid decision?

[Aorin.9168]

The ineptitude shown with this change just baffles me. You completely gutted pve confusion, the bread and butter of the newest and most fun to play elite spec, without including changes to compensate, as you obviously intended (torment). I will not burn gold or time changing my gear because you people can’t make up your mind or balance a game properly.

 

This is just lazy, rushed, poorly planned, designed, and implemented.

 

From a player already on the fence, thanks for tipping me the rest of the way. This game will never see another login or dollar from me.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

> > >

> > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

> >

> > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

>

> You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it.

 

You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world.

[Miroe.2054]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" rambled:

> Please retain the whole (...) pasta:

> Moving (...) condition damage contribution ticks (...) in addition to its (...) punishment of (...) skills. We needed to make (...) the condition (...) to be used as spammable (...) potency. We've decided to push (...) focus on punishing skill (...). The reason for keeping any (...) message that you're under the effects of the (...) can (...) without looking (...) buff (...).

> With that said, we'll be moving (...) toward Torment, rather than (...) the process (...).

 

I have no Idea, what he's talking about...

 

 

[Tanek.5983]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

> > > >

> > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

> > >

> > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous.

> >

> > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it.

>

> You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world.

 

When a change limits build options (or even narrows them down to one) in a gameplay mode, that should signal a problem, no? And the devs seem to think it is a bit of an issue, too, if there are fixes for it planned later. Which is its own problem. I'm never a fan of the "break it now, fix it later" style, especially when it is known that there will be need of a further fix even before the change is implemented.

Things may end up in a good place later, but don't play down that people will be having problems with their builds, at least for now.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

First off, ty for the phantasm changes! I'm enjoying them thoroughly.

When you get around to changing the axe, and I hope it's sooner than next major balance patch, make sure to also "fix" the sceptre in PvE. Having 2 mh condi weapons rely on confusion in a game mode with enemies that attack slow (I know you as a balance dev can't change that) is crippling to build diversity when there are only 3 condi weapons. It also destroys torch since it can't be paired with anything good.

[Cougre.6543]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

From a PvP perspective, what is the point of changing confusion when you're going to substitute it with other conditions anyway? I feel as though a split between PvE and PvP for confusion would be much more appropriate here. It dealing most of its damage on skill activation is desirable in PvP, while it dealing unconditional DPS clearly is the only satisfactory solution in PvE if we assume that no big enemy AI overhaul is intended to be made.

 

This seems like a much simpler solution for keeping mesmer builds in check without ruining the class in another game mode than having to fiddle around with different conditions on different weapons.

[Lotheap Mitty.6103]

THIS MEANS WAR

 

edit: didn't read the second post. changing mirage axe ambush to torment will totally solve this.

BUT IT'S STILL WAR FOR NOT DOING IT STRAIGHT AWAY MAKING ME FEEL INSIGNIFICANT FOR AT LEAST 2 DAYS

[Oglaf.1074]

Talk about double-standards:

 

Torment was buffed to Bleed levels of passive damage a while ago simply because it didn’t perform as well in PvE: mobs didn’t trigger it consistently enough.

 

Why is your views on Confusion the total opposite of that? They work on the same principle (movement vs. skill use) and the same reason why it sucks in PvE applies just the same; mobs don’t trigger it consistently enough.

 

I am confused, ironically.

 

P.S - Rework Merciless Hammer on Warrior. It was terrible before and now it is beyond terrible in the light of this nerf.

[Flauvious.6195]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

>

> I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters.

 

Power mesmer is strong af.

[Cantatus.4065]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

>

> Confusion is an iconic condition of the mesmer while torment should have stayed with revenant and necromancer.

>

> Instead of leaving the condition alone for PvE, you've gutted mirage and their utilities/traits that apply confusion (including Jaunt, crystal sands, dune cloak, and riddle of sand on top of the axe and now magic bullet) out of a stubborn view that confusion shouldn't be split in mechancis between PvE and wvw/pvp.

>

> Changes that would have made shatters attractive to condition builds like Cry of Pain with Cry of Frustration have been made worthless as well in PvE. Ineptitude among other condition traits made garbage overnight in PvE. Scepter's Confusing Images made from a decent ability in PvE into an entirely pointless one.

>

> You've essentially made a condition pointless in the most played game format for no reason whatsoever.

>

> There was a reason you changed confusion for PvE. And you reverted to an obsolete state in what is an unjustified turn of events.

>

> Now it will take months of retooling condi mesmer damage output in PvE just because you couldn't keep the mechanical change restricted to pvp formats. What a total waste of development time to needlessly break something that will require further development sources to fix when the obvious solution was a format split.

 

Exactly this. I've always liked the idea behind confusion, but it's obviously one that isn't as strong in PvE due to the rate at which mobs attack. I thought this issue was solved _years_ ago when they added a DoT to it as sort of a compromise. If they want to go back to making the trigger stronger in PvP to make make it more unique, I support that since it fits the mesmer well, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the usefulness of confusion in PvE which is currently the case.

 

Confusion is far too big a part of the class's identity to become so weak in PvE. Like you said, it will especially impact mirage since so much of the spec is designed around confusion - and adding torment to axe is not going to fix that. But it also reaches far across our class since it's our core condition. It's part of what makes mesmers mesmers.

 

I don't mind us having some specs that are more oriented for PvP, but where they can be made to be effective in PvE, they should. And this is one case where it'd be very easy to have confusion work well in both PvP and PvE by scaling the numbers differently.

[Xstein.2187]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

As I hinted at in the other thread, please don't change Axe towards Torment. This really feels like a rash bandaid fix. There are other confusion orriented weapons, skills, and traits besides axe. Confusion is built into the mesmer class waaay too much for the condition to only be beneficial in pvp. The real fix is to make confusion beneficial in pve, not to flee from the condition altogether.

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Lotheap Mitty.6103" said:

> THIS MEANS WAR

>

> edit: didn't read the second post. changing mirage axe ambush to torment will totally solve this.

> BUT IT'S STILL WAR FOR NOT DOING IT STRAIGHT AWAY MAKING ME FEEL INSIGNIFICANT FOR AT LEAST 2 DAYS

 

It's so much more than just the axe; a lot of core mechanics to mirage contain confusion. Spends some time hovering over your traits and skills.

[Blaeys.3102]

Here is where the logic falls down on this change -

 

The stated intent of confusion is to make it a hex that punishes the enemy for using abilities. I'm all for that kind of gameplay.

 

The first problem is, if it is meant to be a situational hex, why is it included on the AUTO ATTACK of multiple main hand weapons. Are we supposed to hold our auto attack until the boss begins a string of quick attacks? There is no real logic or situations where playing smart would make a difference.

 

Next, if the vast majority of PVE enemies primarily spam the same attacks, then there is no real "counterplay" at work - or, in the case of most raid and fractal bosses, where they hit VERY VERY slowly, then even the modified confusion is going to do next to nothing on most enemies when compared to other conditions.

 

The solution is obvious - if you want a hex like this, make it a utility skill or limit it on the 4 or 5 attack of the weapon. Then you can make the kind of meaningful changes that involve "punishing the enemy."

 

Now, if the reality is what I (and most others) suspect and this was a change designed for PvP, that's fine (there is opportunity for smart counterplay there) - but then it should have - of course - been limited to pvp.

 

The kind of ability you discuss here sounds good on paper, but doesn't really work the way you describe in practice. All you have done is cripple viable condition dps builds with the vague promise of fixing in the future.

 

That is bad design and shows a disconnect with the community/game. This needs to be fixed sooner rather than soon*.

[Bofouci.1320]

Solution is even more simple. Individual gameplay balance patches.

[Lotheap Mitty.6103]

> @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > @"Lotheap Mitty.6103" said:

> > THIS MEANS WAR

> >

> > edit: didn't read the second post. changing mirage axe ambush to torment will totally solve this.

> > BUT IT'S STILL WAR FOR NOT DOING IT STRAIGHT AWAY MAKING ME FEEL INSIGNIFICANT FOR AT LEAST 2 DAYS

>

> It's so much more than just the axe; a lot of core mechanics to mirage contain confusion. Spends some time hovering over your traits and skills.

 

axe ambush and axe 3 is pretty much all the confusion for clone mirage. like 90%

or if you are talking about scepter or other builds, they wouldn't mind a change from zero damage to negative damage XD

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Lotheap Mitty.6103" said:

> > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > > @"Lotheap Mitty.6103" said:

> > > THIS MEANS WAR

> > >

> > > edit: didn't read the second post. changing mirage axe ambush to torment will totally solve this.

> > > BUT IT'S STILL WAR FOR NOT DOING IT STRAIGHT AWAY MAKING ME FEEL INSIGNIFICANT FOR AT LEAST 2 DAYS

> >

> > It's so much more than just the axe; a lot of core mechanics to mirage contain confusion. Spends some time hovering over your traits and skills.

>

> axe ambush and axe 3 is pretty much all the confusion for clone mirage. like 90%

 

? major part of clone mirage rotation includes using Crystal Oasis and Jaunt both of which rely on confusion or damage.

[Tanek.5983]

> @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> Solution is even more simple. Individual gameplay balance patches.

 

At launch, their stated goal was to keep skills the same across PvE, PvP, and WvW rather than have skills split between the game modes like in GW1. If they had kept to that, I may not like it, but I could understand where the PvP changes sometimes have detrimental PvE consequences.

Now that some skills _are_ effectively split, though, I don't understand the logic in having one mode negatively impact the other.

[Bofouci.1320]

> @"Tanek.5983" said:

> > @"Bofouci.1320" said:

> > Solution is even more simple. Individual gameplay balance patches.

>

> At launch, their stated goal was to keep skills the same across PvE, PvP, and WvW rather than have skills split between the game modes like in GW1. If they had kept to that, I may not like it, but I could understand where the PvP changes sometimes have detrimental PvE consequences.

> Now that some skills _are_ effectively split, though, I don't understand the logic in having one mode negatively impact the other.

 

True. They said a lot of things before and at launch that just either didn't happen, was not sustainable on their end or has changed since.

[Crossaber.8934]

Make a passive skill for every pve boss that automatically use a skill (a skill do nothing and no effect) every X sec in combat to trigger confusion punishment, there you can keep the new confusion for all game mode.

[Zoser.7245]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing:

> Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar.

> With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows.

 

Keeping the confusion as it was in pve would have been preferable till the future changes are made, now we have to suffer the consequencies.

 

Please if instead of change the confusion for pve you decide to change our weapons's skills, don't forget update the scepter too, at least for pve or in all game modes if you want to maintaing the same skills between pve/pvp/WvW, but confusion generate us a lot of collateral problems, shatters, utilities , Jaunt... we lost too much.

 

Thanks for letting us know about future changes.

[Levetty.1279]

* Axe isn't the only skills that uses confusion. Are condi shatters, Jaunt, Crystal Sands, confusing images going to be changed to torment?

* If all these skills change to torment won't that remove confusion from PvP?

* Why did you bother to do PvE/PvP spits for these skills in the balance patch if confusion was being made useless in PvE?

* Why did you buff Jaunt's confusion duration in PvE?

 

This who thing just baffles me.

[plushiesoda.8150]

Deleted in protest of anet leaving support ticket #7495730 without answer since October 10th 2019. It's sad how if this were a money-related issue you'd have answered within a couple of hours. At this point I'm not even mad, but disappointed by the mediocrity displayed by your community managers.

[atlashugged.7642]

Everyone is looking at this the wrong way IMO. The problem isn't that the DoT does too little. It's that the punishment does too little in PvE. Making confusion a boring DoT for pve would be a step backwards. Increase the Burst to make it so well timed bursts of confusion can actually keep up in DPS with other builds, and it would be fine.