Engineer will never work until Anet decide to add a 2nd weapon set to the class

[Stand The Wall.6987]

ill never understand this pov...

engi has everything. if you cant make engi work youre not trying hard enough.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> > @"RedSPINE.7845" said:

> > Stop asking for a weapon swap, please, that would be the worst thing to happen for the engineer ...

> > You have 7 other classes capable of it, why don' t you play them ? Let the engineer remain an original class.

>

> so your argument is let me be original and that's it? , like i said before, Eles have a good reason for not to have a 2nd set of weapons, engis on the other side not, that's a fact, we depend a lot on kits and this remove a lot of customization and options for the class, if i decide to go full elixirs with out a single kit, i'm in a inferior position compared to the other classes.

>

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Sure ... but a second weapon swap isn't the solution to those problems. It makes no sense to justify a 2nd weapon because of 'problems' when the 2nd weapon doesn't solve those problems.

>

> Of course that not having a 2nd set of weapons is the core problem of the class, try to be effective with enginner with out using holosmith or any kit, good luck with that, i'm not saying that engi is useless, i'm just saying that engi with out a kit is like playing another game in nightmare difficulty and by adding the 2nd set of weapons engi would be in a good position, you know just like the other 7 classes.

>

> It would be amazing if engi could have a 2nd set of weapons if you are not using any kit or holo.

>

>

But that's the point of the class ... you USE kits if you want to be amazing. Engi is not deficient because you _choose_ to not use the tools that will make you amazing. Look at what you are saying ... Engi will never work without a weapon swap ... because you CHOOSE to not use kits. That makes zero sense. You can't say that if you decide to not use most of your toolset, the class sucks. I mean, you CAN say that but it goes without saying that if you don't use a big part of your toolset, you won't be good.

[michelada.2947]

¡That's my point! , we are forced to use kits and i hate that, no other class is "FORCED" to use a single utility from their skills set , just engis ( Revenants don't count they have 2 utility set)

[patricide.1062]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> ¡That's my point! , we are forced to use kits and i hate that, no other class is "FORCED" to use a single utility from their skills set , just engis ( Revenants don't count they have 2 utility set)

 

So... you want the class to be amazing without having to use the core mechanics of the class because you don't like the core mechanics? That... doesn't make any sense.

[michelada.2947]

It make's sense because no other class force you to pick certain utilities, the kits are not given to the engi for free, kits are not the core mechanic of the class, Tool belt f1-f5 is the core mechanic of the class, those are given to you for free.

 

I dont understand how can you defend kits when kits have been on terrible state for a long time, are kinda useless and don't payoff, when was the last time you saw a fire thrower engi? , oh and by the way, fire thrower take a major trait from firearms line which is even worse, the only kit that you will see engis using all the time is elixir gun and that's it.

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> ¡That's my point! , we are forced to use kits and i hate that, no other class is "FORCED" to use a single utility from their skills set , just engis ( Revenants don't count they have 2 utility set)

 

I have to say, I really can't understand your problem here ... so you AREN'T willing to swap into a kit to optimize your play ... but you ARE willing to swap to a different weapon for it. That's assuming that you even HAVE a weapon worth swapping to ... Seems like you're arguing semantics to me.

 

You keep eluding to the fact that other classes aren't forced into using certain things ... but that's completely wrong. If you want optimized play on other classes like you are saying you want here, you are MOST DEFINITELY forced into using certain things to get that on other classes. This argument makes NO sense because your claim is completely wrong.

 

Not only that, but a weapon swap doesn't solve any problem and in fact, goes against the intent of the class concept. The idea just doesn't make sense. I get that you don't believe there is any kit worth using, but that's hardly a reason to justify getting a weapon swap. The solution is to fix the kits. You don't fix kits by giving people an rewarding way to not use them and then justify that by making false statements about how other classes aren't forced into specifics to optimize their play.

[michelada.2947]

Is easy to understand, and it's not "swapping" it's "adding", the 2nd set of weapons is free, the kit is not, imagine a scrapper with hammer/rifle, it would be amazing, even with the recent buffs, scrapper is not even used, because still lacks the optimization to make it viable, don't tell me that would be op because there are other 7 classes that can swap weapons, and eles can have 8 skillsets if they want to and that doesn't turn them into an Op class.

 

Anyways this is my last post i been giving "FACTS" and i just receive points of view like "hey dude you are not trying hard enough", "engi is fine ", "not having a 2nd set of weapons for no reason make us cool let it be".

 

In resume facts:

 

-Enginner is the only class forced to pick certain utilities. (removing optimization options for us)

-Kits are in a terrible state and we are forced to play those anyways.

-We are punished if we don't take any kit. (less build variation)

-kits are not the core mechanic of the class, tool belt is.

-Besides Holosmith, the class is in general in a bad state.

-Some traitlines still need some adjustments, i applaud anet for the lastest changes to inventions and elixirs those changes were amazing and bring a lot of synergy with other lanes.

 

I love the class and this is why i care so much that the only viable build is holosmith and no more, as a main guardian the variation of builds i can create with my guardian is abysmal compared to the engi.

[Obtena.7952]

Well, no it's not easy to understand because:

 

1. It solves no problem; kits will still be terrible

2. It's contrary to the concept of the class

3. Every class is force to pick certain utilities to optimize.

4. You can't claim you are punished if you purposefully exclude a significant part of your toolset from play.

5. Kits are as core as belts are (Seriously, you went there?)

6. Engi being in a bad state doesn't justify (or get fixed) a second weapon being added.

 

 

[Ivantreil.3092]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> It make's sense because no other class force you to pick certain utilities, the kits are not given to the engi for free, kits are not the core mechanic of the class, Tool belt f1-f5 is the core mechanic of the class, those are given to you for free.

>

> I dont understand how can you defend kits when kits have been on terrible state for a long time, are kinda useless and don't payoff, when was the last time you saw a fire thrower engi? , oh and by the way, fire thrower take a major trait from firearms line which is even worse, the only kit that you will see engis using all the time is elixir gun and that's it.

>

 

It seems that has never played raids, or in a pvp perspective, pre-hot marauder rifle.

 

Dont get me wrong, back in the old forums, i had this exact argument that engineer was doomed to triple kit or full kit all the time in order to be efficient.

 

But that was just for the PvE scenario, dependancy doesnt equal to weakness at all, what if i told you that we had a pvp meta build that used grenade kit, tool kit, 2 elixirs among with it (no elixir gun), you can still theorycraft it today, it never got nerfed, and the only reason it doesnt exist anymore is due to power creep.

 

And dude, even if we could weapon swap, kits would still be needed, because our weapons are terrible as a standalone option, youll never make a kitless build workout.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> And dude, even if we could weapon swap, kits would still be needed, because our weapons are terrible as a standalone option, youll never make a kitless build workout.

Which is why I am in favor of the **weaponswap being a kit** (on weaponswap cd, unlike kits in skill slots).

An engie would run:

P/p/toolkit+heal+3 skills+elite

Rifle/flamethrower

Hammer/elixirgun

Sword/shield/toolkit

Etc and so on.

 

Basicly, all engies get one "free" kit at the cost of weaponswap cd.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> > And dude, even if we could weapon swap, kits would still be needed, because our weapons are terrible as a standalone option, youll never make a kitless build workout.

> Which is why I am in favor of the **weaponswap being a kit** (on weaponswap cd, unlike kits in skill slots).

> An engie would run:

> P/p/toolkit+heal+3 skills+elite

> Rifle/flamethrower

> Hammer/elixirgun

> Sword/shield/toolkit

> Etc and so on.

>

> Basicly, all engies get one "free" kit at the cost of weaponswap cd.

 

The thing is, we can change from kit to weapon or weapon to kit anytime we want. Your idea would get us stuck in let’s say Flamethrower, which is a condi weapon, but can’t swap to rifle, a power weapon.

I would hate to get stuck in a kit or can’t pick up the kit anytime I want. Cooldowns - a big no from me.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> > > And dude, even if we could weapon swap, kits would still be needed, because our weapons are terrible as a standalone option, youll never make a kitless build workout.

> > Which is why I am in favor of the **weaponswap being a kit** (on weaponswap cd, unlike kits in skill slots).

> > An engie would run:

> > P/p/toolkit+heal+3 skills+elite

> > Rifle/flamethrower

> > Hammer/elixirgun

> > Sword/shield/toolkit

> > Etc and so on.

> >

> > Basicly, all engies get one "free" kit at the cost of weaponswap cd.

>

> The thing is, we can change from kit to weapon or weapon to kit anytime we want. Your idea would get us stuck in let’s say Flamethrower, which is a condi weapon, but can’t swap to rifle, a power weapon.

> I would hate to get stuck in a kit or can’t pick up the kit anytime I want. Cooldowns - a big no from me.

Since when are you "stuck" with a weaponswap? It's the same limitation all other classes have. I didnt say remove all other kits from the skill slots. You could still run 3 skill kits with 0s cd - and a 4th kit on weaponswap cd. Pick and choose which kits you want on 0s cd - or dont even kitten choose a weaponswap kit, engie would be the same as now no change.

 

Example scenario:

Use p/p/toolkit. Start with p/p. Swap to elixir gun, fire cleansing field. Swap back to p/p on 0s cd. Weaponswap to toolkit. Swap back to elixir gun, 0s cd. Swap back to toolkit. Still whatever cd remaining on weaponswap before you can swap to p/p. Swap to bomb kit on 0s cd. Swap back to toolkit. Swap to p/p as weaponswap cd is done. Swap to bomb kit on 0s cd. Swap back to p/p. Etc etc etc.

 

This change would literally be a *free extra kit* for the engie, clearing up one skill slot for other things at a minor cost in flexibility. Completely optional, just like not putting a second weaponset in on any other class.

 

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> > > > And dude, even if we could weapon swap, kits would still be needed, because our weapons are terrible as a standalone option, youll never make a kitless build workout.

> > > Which is why I am in favor of the **weaponswap being a kit** (on weaponswap cd, unlike kits in skill slots).

> > > An engie would run:

> > > P/p/toolkit+heal+3 skills+elite

> > > Rifle/flamethrower

> > > Hammer/elixirgun

> > > Sword/shield/toolkit

> > > Etc and so on.

> > >

> > > Basicly, all engies get one "free" kit at the cost of weaponswap cd.

> >

> > The thing is, we can change from kit to weapon or weapon to kit anytime we want. Your idea would get us stuck in let’s say Flamethrower, which is a condi weapon, but can’t swap to rifle, a power weapon.

> > I would hate to get stuck in a kit or can’t pick up the kit anytime I want. Cooldowns - a big no from me.

> Since when are you "stuck" with a weaponswap? It's the same limitation all other classes have. I didnt say remove all other kits from the skill slots. You could still run 3 skill kits with 0s cd - and a 4th kit on weaponswap cd. Pick and choose which kits you want on 0s cd - or dont even kitten choose a weaponswap kit, engie would be the same as now no change.

>

> Example scenario:

> Use p/p/toolkit. Start with p/p. Swap to elixir gun, fire cleansing field. Swap back to p/p on 0s cd. Weaponswap to toolkit. Swap back to elixir gun, 0s cd. Swap back to toolkit. Still whatever cd remaining on weaponswap before you can swap to p/p. Swap to bomb kit on 0s cd. Swap back to toolkit. Swap to p/p as weaponswap cd is done. Swap to bomb kit on 0s cd. Swap back to p/p. Etc etc etc.

>

> This change would literally be a *free extra kit* for the engie, clearing up one skill slot for other things at a minor cost in flexibility.

>

 

We are not stuck with a Weapon, we are stuck with a Kit. Most kits are used for their #2-3-4-5 skills (Except Bomb Kit). Then swapping back to weapon.

 

For example, let’s say I have Hammer/Elixir Gun. In a teamfight, I use my hammer #3 to engage, then I have so many condis on me, I swap to Elixir Gun, use #5 and #3 for cleanse, then swap back to hammer. Use #4 to block some damage and #2 to deal damage/reflect projectiles. Then swap back to elixir gun to blast my water field (Regenerating Mist/Elixir Gun toolbelt) with #4. Then swap back to hammer again. That won’t happen with your idea.

 

Another example. I have a Rifle. I’m 1v1ing in a side node. Why would I swap to Flamethrower at all? Zero damage if I don’t have any Condi stats equipped.

Then Toolkit. The worst kit of utility kits except the #5 Pull.

Kits should have low cooldowns and be swappable anytime.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> Another example. I have a Rifle. I’m 1v1ing in a side node. Why would I swap to Flamethrower at all?

Then dont use a frikking flamethrower then. You are arguing against my *examples* of what you *could* equip as a *choice*. I said rifle/ft on random. I could have said rifle/toolkit. Rifle/bomb kit. Rifle/grenade kit. It's completely irrelevant. That's like going to the warrior forum and arguing why I would ever want to swap to mace/torch on my zerker spellbreaker, this doesnt work the warrior is broken because I dont want to swap to mace/torch.

 

Your example would happen exactly like that with my idea if you choose the elixir gun as your skill 1-3 rather than the one weaponswap kit.

[zinkz.7045]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Not only that, but a weapon swap doesn't solve any problem and in fact, goes against the intent of the class concept.

 

The class concept is flawed for multiple reasons such as the imbalance between kits (at least if most of them were up to par) and other utility skills is too large, or that the pressure on utility slots is too much, especially when it comes to things like stun breaks where you have an opportunity cost, which is why engy has always had lots of passive stun breaks, problem is they are inferior much of the time because you have no control over them.

 

If the concept is kits are a must (if they were all actually decent) and you are only intended to play engy with at least some kits, then the concept would make more sense if engy were forced to take at least one kit with a dedicated kit slot in addition to the utility slots, or at the least if kits were able to be switched into whilst you were stunned/dazed so they could put stun breaks in some of them, rather than the shitty passive ones and at the same time making certain utility skills less mandatory.

 

> The solution is to fix the kits.

 

Except the Anet solution since HoT has been firstly to make a weapon so strong (hammer), that could do so much, it compensated for only having one weapon, at least before all the nerfs, or to basically give engy an additional weapon anyway with Holosmith, the original "concept" of engy simply has not worked since HoT, it is outdated in the game in 2018. (and to be blunt unless you've spent all your time in PvP the engy concept hasn't exactly been working great in the rest of the game over the last 5 years)

 

 

 

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > Another example. I have a Rifle. I’m 1v1ing in a side node. Why would I swap to Flamethrower at all?

> Then dont use a frikking flamethrower then. You are arguing against my *examples* of what you *could* equip as a *choice*. I said rifle/ft on random. I could have said rifle/toolkit. Rifle/bomb kit. Rifle/grenade kit. It's completely irrelevant. That's like going to the warrior forum and arguing why I would ever want to swap to mace/torch on my zerker spellbreaker, this doesnt work the warrior is broken because I dont want to swap to mace/torch.

>

> Your example would happen exactly like that with my idea if you choose the elixir gun as your skill 1-3 rather than the one weaponswap kit.

 

I’m not going to argue semantics, seems like there was a misunderstanding about your example statements.

 

I don’t understand the second one too to be honest. Why would I want Elixir Gun’s #1 and #3 only? Or why would I want only some of the skills of a kit?

 

I just want to swap to my kits whenever I want, and swap to my weapon again whenever I want. Engineer’s rotations (or whatever you call them) include swapping to your kits and weapons quickly.

 

Let’s take a look at Raid Power Holosmith Rotation for example;

 

When you hit %100 Heat, you swap to Rifle use #3 #4 #5 and swap to Grenade Kit use #2 #4 #5 and swap to Bomb Kit use #2 #1 #1 #1 then swap to Grenade Kit again use #2 then swap to Bomb Kit and use #1 until your overheat cools down.

There are tons of examples which you swap kits over and over again.

 

Losing flexibility of quickly swapping kits is not worth for just 1 more utility slot. Especially when the swap has a 10 second cooldown.

 

Edit : Typo

[Obtena.7952]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Not only that, but a weapon swap doesn't solve any problem and in fact, goes against the intent of the class concept.

>

> The class concept is flawed for multiple reasons such as the imbalance between kits (at least if most of them were up to par) and other utility skills is too large, or that the pressure on utility slots is too much, especially when it comes to things like stun breaks where you have an opportunity cost, which is why engy has always had lots of passive stun breaks, problem is they are inferior much of the time because you have no control over them.

>

> If the concept is kits are a must (if they were all actually decent) and you are only intended to play engy with at least some kits, then the concept would make more sense if engy were forced to take at least one kit with a dedicated kit slot in addition to the utility slots, or at the least if kits were able to be switched into whilst you were stunned/dazed so they could put stun breaks in some of them, rather than the kitten passive ones and at the same time making certain utility skills less mandatory.

>

> > The solution is to fix the kits.

>

> Except the Anet solution since HoT has been firstly to make a weapon so strong (hammer), that could do so much, it compensated for only having one weapon, at least before all the nerfs, or to basically give engy an additional weapon anyway with Holosmith, the original "concept" of engy simply has not worked since HoT, it is outdated in the game in 2018. (and to be blunt unless you've spent all your time in PvP the engy concept hasn't exactly been working great in the rest of the game over the last 5 years)

>

>

>

 

OK ... that still doesn't mean a second weapon swap is the solution to bad kits. The discussion here isn't about whether kits are not good, it's about the idea of adding a second weapon to eng. That's a much higher consideration outside of kits being bad.

[zinkz.7045]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Not only that, but a weapon swap doesn't solve any problem and in fact, goes against the intent of the class concept.

> >

> > The class concept is flawed for multiple reasons such as the imbalance between kits (at least if most of them were up to par) and other utility skills is too large, or that the pressure on utility slots is too much, especially when it comes to things like stun breaks where you have an opportunity cost, which is why engy has always had lots of passive stun breaks, problem is they are inferior much of the time because you have no control over them.

> >

> > If the concept is kits are a must (if they were all actually decent) and you are only intended to play engy with at least some kits, then the concept would make more sense if engy were forced to take at least one kit with a dedicated kit slot in addition to the utility slots, or at the least if kits were able to be switched into whilst you were stunned/dazed so they could put stun breaks in some of them, rather than the kitten passive ones and at the same time making certain utility skills less mandatory.

> >

> > > The solution is to fix the kits.

> >

> > Except the Anet solution since HoT has been firstly to make a weapon so strong (hammer), that could do so much, it compensated for only having one weapon, at least before all the nerfs, or to basically give engy an additional weapon anyway with Holosmith, the original "concept" of engy simply has not worked since HoT, it is outdated in the game in 2018. (and to be blunt unless you've spent all your time in PvP the engy concept hasn't exactly been working great in the rest of the game over the last 5 years)

> >

> >

> >

>

> OK ... that still doesn't mean a second weapon swap is the solution to bad kits. The discussion here isn't about whether kits are not good, it's about the idea of adding a second weapon to eng. That's a much higher consideration outside of kits being bad.

 

My point wasn't really about whether kits are good or bad, or even whether a weapon swap is the solution.

 

You stated weapon swap "goes against the intent of the class concept", the point being the class concept is a poorly thought through, poorly implemented mish mash, that has failed, even more so as the game as aged, so arguing things are against a class concept that hasn't really worked is nonsensical, engy needs the mesmer treatment - a rework.

 

I have no idea whether weapon swap is the answer, nor really have much preference on it either way, though it is amusing given this thread that the thing currently keeping engy relevent in PvP/PvE (as always it is still irrelevant in WvW) is basically a glorified weapon swap with a resource mechanic slapped on it.

[Obtena.7952]

Weapon swap isn't a solution to bad kits because kits will still be bad if you get a weapon swap. Besides ... do you believe that a weapon swap can even come close to what variety you get with kits? GL with that.

[MrForz.1953]

I'm not exactly sure what you'd gain from swapping weapons anyways. P/P into P/Sh? Rifle into Sw/Sh or Hammer? Given how atrocious the majority of weapons are to begin with that won't be much of an improvement. Kits are supposed to offset that. I don't recall the last time I saw someone with a Tool Kit, the actual shield swapping option.

[Iozeph.5617]

Kits are a small part of the problem. The rest is a lot of vestigial items that never should have been tampered with for the sake of shoehorning in dubious elite professions-turrets and gadgets and elixirs. We have an abundance of abilities -arguably more than any other profession- which we just don't use. That's bad. The latest changes helped somewhat- at least for thumper turret. But what we don't need is weapon swap. We need everything we have in the core of the profession to be brought back to a level where it once again becomes a matter of tough choices as to what you want to use. Yes, in the past we had a lot of options- but that was offset by the still-existing limitations of the hot bar. Right now we don't have such good choices. All they'd done is change how we have to cleanse conditions. If anything giving us less freedom to choose.

 

As others have said it here, adding weapon swap right now is just going to give you a completely mediocre and underwhelming profession that now has access to weapon swap. Imagine the memes generated by that. -

 

'Engineer! Now with twice the fail!'

[RedSPINE.7845]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> ¡That's my point! , we are forced to use kits and i hate that, no other class is "FORCED" to use a single utility from their skills set , just engis ( Revenants don't count they have 2 utility set)

 

Go back to what I said, if you don't like how the class works, choose another class and let us be happy with our favourite profession -_-

[Xruptor.3965]

I think that Kits are part of the problem. They haven't been scaled in a long time and are extremely outdated (boons, power buffs, etc..). If they went back and polished them a bit I'm sure things would be fine. That being said I don't think Engineers should get a weaponswap. Just use the kits. (Yes, yes I know you DON'T want to use kits... but it's part of the profession. Don't look at me like that... I know I said they are outdated. Use them anyways!). If you desperately want to 'feel' like you have a weapon swap then go Holosmith and go into Photon Forge. There you go a weaponswap. Sure it's not the same but it gives you the "feel" for one. Or you can simply just swap to a Kit. Either way I seriously don't think Engineer needs a secondary weaponswap.

 

Now turrets.... don't even get me started on those. I feel like they have been abandoned by Anet in general. I wish they would go back and update or at least rethink the turrets for Engineer. Such an interesting mechanic for Engineer that is left behind.

[Ardid.7203]

Kits are instantaneous and full of options. The price we pay for having them is not getting weapon swap. This is what conforms most of Engie's gameplay style and makes it unique. And it is AWESOME.

 

Kits needs to be better balanced and better recognized as profession mechanic. That's all.

 

We don't need Engie to become another warrior.

[Rezzet.3614]

> @"ukuni.8745" said:

> > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > the only viable build right now for engineer is holosmith, and you know why? , because you can have a 2nd set of skill for free. Eles and engineers are the only classes that can't have a 2nd weapon set but compared to the ele that can have 20 weapon skills no matter what weapons you choose, enginners are forced to use kits that removes utility slot from your build.

> > > i just got tired of trying to make this class work, i hope Anet notice that engineer class need some work to be on par with the other classes.

> >

> > scrapper is a friggin juggernaut after the patch

> >

> > holosmith has two effective builds 3 if you count pve

> >

> > what was overnerfed was condi cleanse tho

>

> I think our condi clense got better ive been taking hardlight arena and dropping it on necros and just going to town face tanking

 

yeah core engi lost a bit of cleanse but scrapper and holosmith dont have to rely on elixirs anymore