meri.9187 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > There are far more votes for Rev than Necro, and Rev as i recall was one of the least player MAIN class in the forum poll. > > > > I don't think only Rev players vote for thier class but there are far more player that do not MAIN a Rev vote for him. On the other hand, Necro was one of the most player MAIN class of all, looks like most Necro vote are actually the Necro MAIN after all. I believe the majority player are more clear on the whole picture. > > > > Core Necro, might need some buff on damage side. > > Reaper, need some slight buff, or just reduce the life force degen a little bit and they will be great. > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, slightly OP in pvp and wvw, it is okay for now or need some slight nerf, especially if core necro got buff on damage side, definitely need some nerf as trade off. > > I see you never ever played necro these days. Else you would have another opinion i guess. > > And for pve the only reason for taking a scourge is epidemic. Cause its kitten weak. > > Yes i main necro, but i also played rev a lot these days, cause necro isnt fun anymore. > The support aspect got a huge hit, and dmg as wall, even playstyle. > Cause we now have a 500ms lagg when using shade abilities. > In 1v1 scenarios, u wont hit anything with that. If you want to use f2-5 you need to predict what enemy predicts you to do and then predict the enemys action, of your predicted prediction. > > O gosh. Thats pretty bad. > > I myself think that rev sure could use some buffs or changes, but as it is right now, its > 1. Much more enjoyable to play than necro, because no laggs > 2. Rewards energy managment, that most players dont have, and then say its bad design/class > 3. Has good variation of builds I don't know if you understand what a poll is. You made this poll to try and get everyone to vote necro, when it's completely broken in WvW (both small group and blob) and still a top tier build in PvP. And when you don't get the results you wanted, you decide to complain more and try to convince everyone that Necro is worse. To make things clear: I main a Revenant. Trying to argue that Revenant has a "good variation of builds" is laughable. Pretty much every PvP herald runs the same traits- devastation-invocation-herald. There used to be a choice- you could take viper's condi rev with corruption-retribution herald. Nerfed to the ground. You could take a devastation-retribution-herald build to serve as a bunker as well as decent teamfighter. Nerfed to the ground. In Season 7, you could take a Ventari build. Nerfed to the ground. Not to mention the one build that remains (devastation-invocation-herald) is outdated and falls flat against many of the meta PvP classes. Rev as a class is pigeonholed into having the LEAST build diversity because you are forced to take two legends, and once you've chosen a legend, there is no further choice of utilities. If you are fighting another herald you know what you are going to get every time. And the persistent overnerfing of our mechanics contributes even more to the lack of build diversity. Retribution is a shadow of what it once was. Ventari rev is only good as a very niche build. Mallyx condi rev can... maybe serve as a resistance bot? I won't vote for Revenant since I believe its top builds are still good in WvW, and that's what I play. But your comment on build diversity is simply inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > Sorry but i dont understand, why so many ppl are voting rev. I said consider all gamemodes an build variants in my original post. It's funny when people make polls wanting to fish for the answers they want. Rev is a much newer class ... it's development is much farther behind necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > Sorry but i dont understand, why so many ppl are voting rev. I said consider all gamemodes an build variants in my original post. > > It's funny when people make polls wanting to fish for the answers they want. > > Rev is a much newer class ... it's development is much farther behind necro. > That and necro is one of the easiest classes in the game to play. It's really hard to argue that necro is in a worse position than say, core engineer or scrapper. I voted Rev because it has the least amount of development behind it, forcing it into using specific utilities and really eliminating a lot of variation potential that makes other classes strong. It would be like playing engineer without decent kits. Yuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabrixmgp.4758 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 People voting Ranger and Mesmer should be checked for mental disabilities. Necros only have one meta build and thats scourge in wvw. Raids would proly rather have a naked level 55 Druid over a Necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabrixmgp.4758 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > Thing is... Revs and Necros are good classes that are desired in WvW. Just like Thief/Engi/Ranger are not desirable for WvW group play. So even though in PvE as a Necro or Rev you might feel weak, there are still other modes of play where those classes often get called OP. Except all 3 of those are very good roamers. A bad Druid will still destroy a scourge in the open 1v1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I remember a discussion like this taking place before HoT came out and it was a debate between necromancer and ranger. The conclusion made by the community then was that the ranger was the absolute worst even when it had some of the strongest supporting elements in the game at the time and was out preforming necromancer at every turn aside from boon removal. Yet necromancer has been mostly ignored to rot. And here we are again. Same place as before only replace ranger with revenant.... I can't do another 4 years of being the absolute worst profession in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > There are far more votes for Rev than Necro, and Rev as i recall was one of the least player MAIN class in the forum poll. > > I don't think only Rev players vote for thier class but there are far more player that do not MAIN a Rev vote for him. On the other hand, Necro was one of the most player MAIN class of all, looks like most Necro vote are actually the Necro MAIN after all. I believe the majority player are more clear on the whole picture. > > Core Necro, might need some buff on damage side. > Reaper, need some slight buff, or just reduce the life force degen a little bit and they will be great. > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, slightly OP in pvp and wvw, it is okay for now or need some slight nerf, especially if core necro got buff on damage side, definitely need some nerf as trade off. You are completely wrong on the necromancer on this. Slight buffs are what we've been getting for years and even when the numbers paper have been comparable to other professions we've under preformed heavily. Slight buffs haven't cut it and they won't cut it. I'm sick of slight buffs that ultimately do nothing or are actually Nerf's disguised as buffs because arena net has no idea what a buff looks like when talking necromancer. No, shroud and life force need to either be scrapped and replaced or completely reworked from the ground up. The system necromancer is based on is so archaic, so poorly designed that other video gaming and card game developers would call it a parasitic mechanic and should have never left the cutting room floor. Especially with how the game has been designed around the other professions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabrixmgp.4758 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. Well... that needs some adds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivantreil.3092 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Say whatever you want necros, if you guys think that revs don't deserve to be the worst one because lack of skills (and therefore, variety), isn't a reason, you guys are blind. Don't you realize revs are doomed to the same painful balance cycle patch? They nerf shiro power, they buff it, they nerf it, buff, nerf, buff, nerf the same kitten over and over again cuz they can't change anything else, there's no other stuff to change, nor new playstyles to bring on, same goes for condi, and healer rev, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. > > Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. > Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. > Well... that needs some adds There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all. If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > > > > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. > > > > Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. > > Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. > > Well... that needs some adds > > There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all. > > If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build. Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like. What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > > > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > > > > > > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. > > > > > > Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. > > > Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. > > > Well... that needs some adds > > > > There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all. > > > > If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build. > > Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like. > > What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished". I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode. Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion. I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > > > > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > > > > > > > > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. > > > > > > > > Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. > > > > Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. > > > > Well... that needs some adds > > > > > > There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all. > > > > > > If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build. > > > > Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like. > > > > What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished". > > I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode. > > Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion. > > I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line. > The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function. One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending. I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example. I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed.. Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I't s a Toss up between Necro and Rev. I voted Rev because it was pretty much always crap in all modes. Necro can still shine in PvP now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > > > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > > > > > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > > > > > > > > > > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. > > > > > > > > > > Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. > > > > > Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. > > > > > Well... that needs some adds > > > > > > > > There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all. > > > > > > > > If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build. > > > > > > Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like. > > > > > > What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished". > > > > I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode. > > > > Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion. > > > > I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line. > > > > The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function. > > One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending. > I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example. > I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed.. > > Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot. Whatever overhaul is needed. Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexi.1398 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I was gonna vote rev, but then i remebered how badly balanced necro is then i changed my mind. Necro is GREAT in pvp/wvw, and that's precisely why I hate it - i'm tired of it being a long away ahead of literally every single other class (as opposed to still good but on par with most other classes), of only getting pinged in wvw chats by people asking for 5+ scourges to do something, of 75% of the people i see in competitive modes being scourges. Sure, it's good, but it isn't BALANCED. And then, necro builds for high level PvE just plain don't exist. Rev isn't good, and also isn't balanced, it needs major buffs to it's elite specs and it's core, but even if hypothetically it became the new ele (viable in every game mode to some extent since all of time, pretty much) i wouldn't be as mad as i am at necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireline.6093 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 As much as I want a rework on Necro I think Rev needs it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabrixmgp.4758 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Ivantreil.3092" said: > Say whatever you want necros, if you guys think that revs don't deserve to be the worst one because lack of skills (and therefore, variety), isn't a reason, you guys are blind. > > Don't you realize revs are doomed to the same painful balance cycle patch? > > They nerf shiro power, they buff it, they nerf it, buff, nerf, buff, nerf the same kitten over and over again cuz they can't change anything else, there's no other stuff to change, nor new playstyles to bring on, same goes for condi, and healer rev, period. I dont see how Revs are possibly worse than Necros. Just because you dont like their playstyle doesnt make them bad. Necros only viable build is Scourge for WvW. Revs can run Herald and we now run a few Renegades as well for Alacrity in our WvW raids. Condi Renegade parses very well on large hitboxes and they have some support where Necros bring nothing to a raid. I dont even know how they can even fix Necro dps. Right now the WvW meta is whoever brings the most Scourges wins. If they get a 2-3k dps boost then they will be even more OP in wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > * Revenant for certain. > > > * Core engi definitely needs some work, and scrapper could use more buffs, but I don't think engineer is in as bad shape as revenant. > > > * Core necro seems... ok, reaper needs some buffs, scourge is fine. > > > * Core ele and tempest need some buffs for PvP/WvW. Weaver is almost right, just needs some tweaking. > > > > Core necromancer has no support, half the damage of reaper, about a third the damage of scourge, its suitability is fine, but for the most part core necromancer is extremely bad and you should under no circumstance run it. Unless you are leveling. > > > > Reaper is way under tuned. > > > > Scourge is physically unpleasant to play after the patch. > > > > Necromancer over all causes massive balance problems in that one nerf sends it into the bin of uselessness. Which has been shown repeatedly in its time in the meta. This patch might prove that the pattern doesn't hold because scourge is just that much better than core necromancer, but history of the class has always been a problem in the game. As such this makes it the worst. > > > > Revenant needs more skills. They don't need their mechanic completely reworked and all of their skills and traits completely reworked. They just need more of them. > > I can't speak to core necro, as I don't generally see it. The few times I have recently have been MM builds. Scourge still has plenty of play all-around still, and lots of potential in all game modes. Reaper is undertuned, to be certain, but it's not too far from where it needs to be. A few slight damage buffs to underperforming skills should bring it to where it belongs. > > I also get the feeling that necro's don't seem to realize how good they've got it. They don't have to do [ridiculous rotations like a condi engi to get subpar DPS](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28506/sc-vanilla-condi-engi-benchmark-post-02-06-2018-patch "ridiculous rotations like a condi engi to get subpar DPS"). If they got the engi treatment, you can bet people might actually care. basilcy every one one want damage, support, tanky in core stuff, necros already have scourge.... and reaper is still gud people just want to be carried when they say they are unplayeable while reaper is actually strong .... if u know how to built it and play it... that is the same has cry omg core guard cant heal has much has FB..... Atm the classes that have more issues are guardian stuff that gets overwhelmed easilly, SW still not working, signets still completelly useless, 1min sanctuary CD after be traited, no elite nor healing skill correspnding to consecrations., shouts need to be tweaked from anything else rather than seve for boon stacking, they are basicly weak mantra but can perform on aoe.... while shout healing skill is still cone....like a mantra... And then we have ravenant that is basicly play condi mace or hammer while behind the zerg w/o basicly anything else rather than keep hammer spam alive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostt.1293 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 revenant is still a unfinished profession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > You need to break this poll up by game mode and by specialization for it to be useful in any capacity. > > > > The strongest specs in the PvP formats are the weakest ones in the PvE ones and vice versa. There is no universally-weak class, but there are massively under-performing specializations in various modes. > > Yeah maybe. Cause i think most people are just voting and not reading my description You simply spread your poll too wide and didn't get the answer you wanted to hear. You think people were going to ignore Scourge PVP/WvW performance when voting here? it might be of little consolation to you that necro PVE performance is trash, but that means quite a bit to people that want to maintain the status quo for WvW/PVP performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > > > > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > > > > > > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. > > > > > > Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. > > > > > > Well... that needs some adds > > > > > > > > > > There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all. > > > > > > > > > > If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build. > > > > > > > > Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like. > > > > > > > > What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished". > > > > > > I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode. > > > > > > Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion. > > > > > > I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line. > > > > > > > The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function. > > > > One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending. > > I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example. > > I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed.. > > > > Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot. > > Whatever overhaul is needed. > > Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time. This is why in my suggestion I say that shroud and life force need to be overhauled. Make them more streamline so that the mechanic isn't so swingy. Because everyone knows that life force either over preforms or under preforms. And thats because of how swingy it is. Making it a regenerating energy mechanic, all be it a really slow one I feel could be a step in the right direction. Arena net wants the necromancer to be an attrition profession? Well their mechanic needs to act like an attrition mechanic that gets better the longer the fight goes. A player could come up to a necromancer, intentionally bait out their life force and drain it, flee, let their skills recharge and come back and the necromancer's defenses are gone. This is only one aspect of my suggestion though. So I might make a lengthy post about it on the necromancer forms but this change, as simple as it sounds requires dozens of traits to be changed, dozens of skills to be changed and the Death Shroud, Reaper's Shroud and Shades to be changed. And that's JUST from changing how life force accumulates! That seemingly minor change has massive implications for everything around the necromancer. And I know this. Which Is why I said the necromancer needs close to a 90% of everything changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said: > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dabrixmgp.4758" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Crossaber.8934" said:. > > > > > > > > > Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss. > > > > > > > Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic. > > > > > > > Well... that needs some adds > > > > > > > > > > > > There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build. > > > > > > > > > > Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like. > > > > > > > > > > What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished". > > > > > > > > I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode. > > > > > > > > Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion. > > > > > > > > I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line. > > > > > > > > > > The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function. > > > > > > One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending. > > > I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example. > > > I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed.. > > > > > > Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot. > > > > Whatever overhaul is needed. > > > > Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time. > > This is why in my suggestion I say that shroud and life force need to be overhauled. Make them more streamline so that the mechanic isn't so swingy. Because everyone knows that life force either over preforms or under preforms. And thats because of how swingy it is. Making it a regenerating energy mechanic, all be it a really slow one I feel could be a step in the right direction. Arena net wants the necromancer to be an attrition profession? Well their mechanic needs to act like an attrition mechanic that gets better the longer the fight goes. A player could come up to a necromancer, intentionally bait out their life force and drain it, flee, let their skills recharge and come back and the necromancer's defenses are gone. This is only one aspect of my suggestion though. So I might make a lengthy post about it on the necromancer forms but this change, as simple as it sounds requires dozens of traits to be changed, dozens of skills to be changed and the Death Shroud, Reaper's Shroud and Shades to be changed. And that's JUST from changing how life force accumulates! That seemingly minor change has massive implications for everything around the necromancer. And I know this. Which Is why I said the necromancer needs close to a 90% of everything changed. Do you realise how much time it takes to redsign the class and how possibly the overhaul will endup destroying the class. Especially it is currently having good standing in 2/3 of game mode which agreed by majority players at the moment. This is not a place to discuss necro overhaul; it is indeed a poll to reflect most player believe Rev is in the worst state across all class and thats it. No matter what we suggested will not change the result of the poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > You need to break this poll up by game mode and by specialization for it to be useful in any capacity. > > > > > > The strongest specs in the PvP formats are the weakest ones in the PvE ones and vice versa. There is no universally-weak class, but there are massively under-performing specializations in various modes. > > > > Yeah maybe. Cause i think most people are just voting and not reading my description > > You simply spread your poll too wide and didn't get the answer you wanted to hear. You think people were going to ignore Scourge PVP/WvW performance when voting here? it might be of little consolation to you that necro PVE performance is trash, but that means quite a bit to people that want to maintain the status quo for WvW/PVP performance. I think you didnt understand or read the description of this poll either. I really meant what i said. Consider all gamemodes. Ill show you: Sure necro is still in a good spot in wvw. In pvp only if you get backup from your team. In pve its pretty bad. Viability check. But that was only one part of the poll. Gameplay, how much fun is it? Well thats not an objective question. But just spamming f-abilities (thats what you have to do in wvw or pvp in order to deal good dmg and most players are only looking for their dmg in these gamemodes. this i is no fun for me, thats just brainless. So if someone said that engi would need a rework, because its frustrating to play the piano like a champ in order to do good condidmg. I would understand and completely agree. So next point. Consider viable builds over all gamemodes so that includes pvp, pve, wvw and wvw roaming. Lets take the so much voted rev: it can be heal, condi and power, and is pretty good in this. Or lets take ranger. It can be condi,healer or power as well. Or guard. Condi,heal or power again. Necro can only be condi with like 2 trait changes if you go from pve to pvp or wvw. But most people were just giving reasons for one gamemode, why the class is bad. Or problems that other classes have as well. But i dont have to discuss this with someone who obviously read the discription, but didnt understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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