Buying and Selling "Runs"

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> Lol.. if they take the incentives away.. yep problem solved, but then no one would want to run them.

> The armours you want wont be there, the achievements won't be there and yes some want the titles etc...thus taking that all away leaves no real value in running the raids, the dungeons etc.. but that is the wrong way to sort the problem.

I don't know about you, but i wasn't running dungeons for the exclusives. I'm not running fractals for the exclusives either.

 

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> Why put time money and effort into designing the content if no one has a carrot to run them... so the answer is simple.. don't change the content, enforce proper rules... ban selling of runs, it creates security issues, it creates scamming opportunities and it prevents threads like this continually rearing its head.

>

> OR.. if ANET want to allow it.. then support it fully, nuts bolts and all, not some half baked in and out statement.

Why do you think a binary solution is the only one? And why do you think Anet should treate this one differently than all of the other things they neither support nor condemn?

 

 

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > So ask yourself.. if it has no value.. why do so many go out, use RMT in order to obtain it??

> > If these things have no value to players why are spots up for sale in order to get them??

> I can't fully answer your question, since i wasn't buying any runs, but for me it's not for prestige. I am interested in legendary armor, because i like the look of the heavy (and, to a certain point, light) skin, and i do find the QoL of stat-swapping to be useful. Also, i find the magnetites to be the best source of ascended weapons and armor at the moment. I went for achievements, because i was interested in hellfire skin (and i do like the fact that the AP points go up, besides i _am_ a completionist). I don't associate any prestige with either of those - i don't really care about titles (unless they sound nice to me), and i wanted envoy heavy primarily because it was one of the best-looking heavy armors around (well, apart for the helmet, i'd rather it didn't transform to this monstrosity, i vastly prefer its untransformed state). Also, again, i was a completionist, and was unhappy that a purple-named gear tier was locked out from me.

>

> That the acquisition of those things represents some kind of challenge? I never cared about it (well, beyond the fact that it might have hindered my attepts to obtain it). It's a game for kitten's sake. I am not going to treat seriously anyone trying to posture for a prestige in a game. Well, unless they are a professional player earning a ton of money on it - that's something i might respect. Otherwise, it's (for me) comparable to asking to be recognized for your skill in snowball throwing. Why should i even care about that (well, unless one of the snowballs ends up being thrown at my window)?

>

> So, i don't really understand the problem. If you think that raid selling is a problem, remove the incentives from raids. Problem solved.

>

>

 

Now that sounds better. You are not saying anymore that titles have no value, but that _you_ don't get them for the prestige. Of course it's a game, the whole discussion takes place in a game's world. You don't need to be a pro gamer who earns money with it to be proud of something you did in the game. I might be as proud of getting Aurora as I was when I shot a wonderful goal in football or made an impossible shot in basketball, or crafted a chess figure set on a lathe and a milling machine. And yes, being recognized as a good snowball thrower or football or basketball player or craftsman or MMO player is part of the whole thing. Just like being recognized in your professional work is important for most people.

 

Not only things you get payed for are valuable.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > Lol.. if they take the incentives away.. yep problem solved, but then no one would want to run them.

> > The armours you want wont be there, the achievements won't be there and yes some want the titles etc...thus taking that all away leaves no real value in running the raids, the dungeons etc.. but that is the wrong way to sort the problem.

> I don't know about you, but i wasn't running dungeons for the exclusives. I'm not running fractals for the exclusives either.

>

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > Why put time money and effort into designing the content if no one has a carrot to run them... so the answer is simple.. don't change the content, enforce proper rules... ban selling of runs, it creates security issues, it creates scamming opportunities and it prevents threads like this continually rearing its head.

> >

> > OR.. if ANET want to allow it.. then support it fully, nuts bolts and all, not some half baked in and out statement.

> Why do you think a binary solution is the only one? And why do you think Anet should treate this one differently than all of the other things they neither support nor condemn?

>

>

 

You hit the nail on the head there.. yes ANET have created many grey areas,, they have ToS that on the face of it does hold up because they "appear" to fail at upholding them.. making them nothing more than empty words.

 

Forgive me, but didn't you previousl;y state you run these things because you like some of the things that come from it.. armours, AP's etc... not everything is a monetary value.. that is your binary thought process not mine... so what's it to be run stuff for no reason at all or run stuff for what can be gained from doing so.. your whole point fell down when you said that.. so why do you run the content??

 

Selling spots and making official statements to say its ok, but then give themselves an out by saying we wont support anything that happens to you from utilising that aspect..

Or.. you must not use the LFG to "sell" anything but its ok to "sell" spots via the LFG because you make a group to do so.. yeah ok so the guys that advertise selling shovels, selling guild hall decorations, selling there auntie.. its ok as well really cos to do so you just need to form a group in order to transact... see its all about how they uphold their own rules.

AFK farming is not allowed but its ok if your out shopping for 6months cos its using an autoskill and no macro.

 

There are so many in and out areas of their ToS that make any official statement look weak.. just like the one they made about this, except this form of gameplay can lead to more serious issues for both sides of the "buy now" but ANET don't support that.. officially.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> Forgive me, but didn't you previousl;y state you run these things because you like some of the things that come from it.. armours, AP's etc... not everything is a monetary value.. that is your binary thought process not mine... so what's it to be run stuff for no reason at all or run stuff for what can be gained from doing so.. your whole point fell down when you said that.. so why do you run the content??

I'd be happier getting that stuff from other content, actually, because i do not like that way of acquisition at all. So, having it available only through that content is not a good thing for me. Thus i fully understand people that buy runs. If i had a ton of gold to spend on it, and could use it to bypass the problematic parts, i'd also do so. I'm just not wealthy enough to do it.

 

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> Selling spots and making official statements to say its ok, but then give themselves an out by saying we wont support anything that happens to you from utilising that aspect..

> Or.. you must not use the LFG to "sell" anything but its ok to "sell" spots via the LFG because you make a group to do so.. yeah ok so the guys that advertise selling shovels, selling guild hall decorations, selling there auntie.. its ok as well really cos to do so you just need to form a group in order to transact... see its all about how they uphold their own rules.

> AFK farming is not allowed but its ok if your out shopping for 6months cos its using an autoskill and no macro.

>

> There are so many in and out areas of their ToS that make any official statement look weak.. just like the one they made about this, except this form of gameplay can lead to more serious issues for both sides of the "buy now" but ANET don't support that.. officially.

 

Err, what? There's nothing in raid selling that's against tos. Additionally, all your argument is bunk. You assume that everything needs to be either specifically forbidden by anet or actively supported by them, when in fact a lot of the player activity is going to fall inbetween those areas.

 

Is farming forbidden in GW2? No, it's not. Does that mean anet should support farming and make it easier for them? Not at all.

Is direct trading between players bypassing the TP forbidden? No, it's not (as long as no RL cash is involved). Does that mean they are going to make it easier on people to do that? No, they'd prefer players to use TP after all.

Is dungeon running forbidden in gw2? No, it's not. Are they supported by Anet? They've been at some time, but now we have a definite statement that they aren't. Not anymore.

Is underwater combat forbidden in GW2? No, it's not. Is it supported? No, and they keep pretending it doesn't even exist.

and so on, and so on.

 

Raid selling (and in general selling of achievements) is exactly like that. It is not something Anet wants to actively support (which is understandable). On the other hand, that activity on its own is _not_ against ToS, so Anet is not going to do anything against raid sellers or buyers. As long as it's not tied to any _other_ activity that _does_ go against ToS (in this case specifically RMT).

 

There's no "grey area" here. There's no ToS that they "fail" to uphold, because there's no ToS breach at all.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > Forgive me, but didn't you previousl;y state you run these things because you like some of the things that come from it.. armours, AP's etc... not everything is a monetary value.. that is your binary thought process not mine... so what's it to be run stuff for no reason at all or run stuff for what can be gained from doing so.. your whole point fell down when you said that.. so why do you run the content??

> I'd be happier getting that stuff from other content, actually, because i do not like that way of acquisition at all. So, having it available only through that content is not a good thing for me. Thus i fully understand people that buy runs. If i had a ton of gold to spend on it, and could use it to bypass the problematic parts, i'd also do so. I'm just not wealthy enough to do it.

>

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > Selling spots and making official statements to say its ok, but then give themselves an out by saying we wont support anything that happens to you from utilising that aspect..

> > Or.. you must not use the LFG to "sell" anything but its ok to "sell" spots via the LFG because you make a group to do so.. yeah ok so the guys that advertise selling shovels, selling guild hall decorations, selling there auntie.. its ok as well really cos to do so you just need to form a group in order to transact... see its all about how they uphold their own rules.

> > AFK farming is not allowed but its ok if your out shopping for 6months cos its using an autoskill and no macro.

> >

> > There are so many in and out areas of their ToS that make any official statement look weak.. just like the one they made about this, except this form of gameplay can lead to more serious issues for both sides of the "buy now" but ANET don't support that.. officially.

>

> Err, what? There's nothing in raid selling that's against tos. Additionally, all your argument is bunk. You assume that everything needs to be either specifically forbidden by anet or actively supported by them, when in fact a lot of the player activity is going to fall inbetween those areas.

>

> Is farming forbidden in GW2? No, it's not. Does that mean anet should support farming and make it easier for them? Not at all.

> Is direct trading between players bypassing the TP forbidden? No, it's not (as long as no RL cash is involved). Does that mean they are going to make it easier on people to do that? No, they'd prefer players to use TP after all.

> Is dungeon running forbidden in gw2? No, it's not. Are they supported by Anet? They've been at some time, but now we have a definite statement that they aren't. Not anymore.

> Is underwater combat forbidden in GW2? No, it's not. Is it supported? No, and they keep pretending it doesn't even exist.

> and so on, and so on.

>

> Raid selling (and in general selling of achievements) is exactly like that. It is not something Anet wants to actively support (which is understandable). On the other hand, that activity on its own is _not_ against ToS, so Anet is not going to do anything against raid sellers or buyers. As long as it's not tied to any _other_ activity that _does_ go against ToS (in this case specifically RMT).

>

> There's no "grey area" here. There's no ToS that they "fail" to uphold, because there's no ToS breach at all.

 

LoL.. You are actively agreeing that there is in fact grey areas by highlighting the double standards in their ToS..

Yes they say it is fine do a variety of things within the game.. raid selling (which incidentally 99% of the time means .. selling final chest, final achievs etc to get the shiny - not a full run) is one such thing, but they put the disclaimer in to say at your own risk as they wont support any player that gets scammed on either side of the sale. Add to that if your account gets compromised and gets shut down.. you get 1 potential chance to get it back after that its tuff tooty. Furthermore, if the seller gets paid from proceeds of an RMT both parties will see action.. hopefully a perma ban for the buyer and loss of sale proceeds for the seller with no comeback.

So with all that in mind and by ANETS own admission that some pretty nasty issues arise from selling spots, why do they allow it in the first place.. simple because they hope players will buy gems legit in order to fund it.

It has nothing to do with right or wrong or upholding the ToS as they are meant to be because if they did they hurt their gem sale capability and like anything that does that.. it gets dealt with swiftly or in this case left alone so as to not hurt their own sale, but screw the players that get affected by it.

 

So I guess when it comes to interpreting the rules we signed up for .. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> LoL.. You are actively agreeing that there is in fact grey areas by highlighting the double standards in their ToS..

Err, what? can you point me to any double standard in ToS here? None of the things i mentioned had anything to do with ToS at all.

 

> Yes they say it is fine do a variety of things within the game.. raid selling (which incidentally 99% of the time means .. selling final chest, final achievs etc to get the shiny - not a full run) is one such thing, but they put the disclaimer in to say at your own risk as they wont support any player that gets scammed on either side of the sale. Add to that if your account gets compromised and gets shut down.. you get 1 potential chance to get it back after that its tuff tooty. Furthermore, if the seller gets paid from proceeds of an RMT both parties will see action.. hopefully a perma ban for the buyer and loss of sale proceeds for the seller with no comeback.

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> So with all that in mind and by ANETS own admission that some pretty nasty issues arise from selling spots, why do they allow it in the first place..

Because the problems they mentioned _are_ forbidden by ToS, but raid selling isn't. And no, these issues do not arise from selling spots, they are merely connected. People would engage in RMT regardless.

Seriously, if just that connection would be enough to ban something, then most of things in this game requiring larger amounts of gold would have to be banned. Personally, for example, i don't think that more RMT gold is used for raid buying than, say, gen1 legendaries. So, does that mean Anet should ban buying legendaries, and if they don't it means they have double standarts in ToS? Because that's the same thing as what you're saying.

 

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> It has nothing to do with right or wrong or upholding the ToS as they are meant to be because if they did they hurt their gem sale capability and like anything that does that.. it gets dealt with swiftly or in this case left alone so as to not hurt their own sale, but screw the players that get affected by it.

I have literally no idea how convoluted way of thinking would have to be to arrive from one point to the other in your "logic". I see no sensible connection between those - quite the opposite. All those cases where they should uphold the ToS are the cases where Anet gains _nothing_, if you haven't noticed.

 

 

[vampirem.2065]

Anet, it's like going in the wrong direction and saying it's right what you decided. You deeply disappointed me.

[ShiningSquirrel.3751]

Nothing has really changed in Anet's stance. This has always been allowed going back to the very beginning of GW1. The Droknars Forge runs where one of the most popular but there where runs to almost all locations in the later part of the game. And BTW, the whole idea of a "run" in GW1 was because that is usually exactly what you did, you "ran" from one outpost or area to another, pulling your party members along with you as you entered a gate. I purchased a forge run on my main just to see how it was done, then created a toon just to do it myself because it was fun. Never charged for it but I only did runs for guildies so I did not compete with the pro runners.

 

Selling runs should be a non issue, kicking players so you can sell their spots is another issue and should be actionable if proven up to and including a perma ban for repeat offenders. What to do to prevent it? That's a tough one. Players do get disconnected so not allowing a player to join after a certain point is reached is tough, but maybe make it so if a player leaves on their own or is disconnected another player can take that place but if a player is kicked no replacement can be invited after a certain point?

[SaskiaElite.8132]

In short terms, I'm forced to do all the content alone and without any help from other players. Because its all random/tricky and devs can do bans at anytime.

 

Saying its "completely acceptable" and "do runs on your own risk" is a bit abnormal.

 

Thanks anyway

[Lystodyne.4719]

> @"Wanze.8410" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > Over the last few months, we have seen a surge in the number of in-game sales related to the completion of challenging encounters and achievements. We've been gathering feedback both internally and externally and we wanted to provide some clarification to players about our policies on this subject.

> >

> > Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content. Other players have provided a service of convenience or carry through the years, and our official stance is that the selling or buying of runs is completely acceptable.

> >

> > However, there is a point where things get a little more tricky, such as when account sharing is involved, or when the transfer of enormous wealth for raid runs takes place. At this point, we believe we need to clarify a few things:

> >

> > - First, account sharing is incredibly risky, as it often leads to the compromise of the account, after which the account may be locked for an indefinite period of time, or permanently terminated. We very seldom are able to retrieve and return a previously shared account to its owner, which is why we strongly recommend that you never share your account with anyone.

> >

> > - Second, after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules.

> >

> > Purchasing a high-cost run directly, or purchasing gold or items to exchange for a run, is likely to result in account action against the purchaser and in some cases the runner(s), as well. While the runner(s) may be unaware that the funds originated from Fraud/RMT, in fact they can be found to be in possession of stolen goods and their account may be impacted by that involvement.

> >

> > In summary, the buying and selling of runs is acceptable, but ArenaNet does not officially support buyers or sellers. **Buying or selling of runs is done at your own risk.** If we investigate a transfer and establish that funds originated from fraud or RMT, we will take action against all parties involved. That action, depending on the situation, could include removal of funds, account suspension, and/or account termination.

>

> I thinks its mindboggling that you still give these guys a platform to advertise runs for sale in the LFG tool. A tool implemented to foster and encourage playing together as a community has become nothing more than a way to pay to win.

>

> But I kinda appreciate the irony that you, Anet, dont even get paid for the win but instead, these runners get the rewards, while you have to deal with the extra customer support issues that result from it and the financial loss from RMT it encourages and entails.

>

> This practice of selling raid runs only profits a fair few, while damaging the majority because it doesnt encourage teaching your fellow players.

>

> For a game studio that took pride in exploring new ways of developing this game in many facets, I question your policy in this regard just because it has been a core role for certain members of your community.

>

> After raids were announced for HoT, plenty of players asked for unique account bound rewards for arguably the most challenging content to distinguish themselves from players who didnt conquer this content.

>

> But once they got all those rewards unlocked and dont feel rewarded for their weekly runs anymore, they turn around and sell run completion to the very players they wanted to distinguish themselves from.

>

> If some players arent able to complete raid content, its your job as the developing game studio to make that content more accessible to those players. even if its for less rewards. Or find a way to give extra rewards to experienced players, who take the time and effort to teach or carry other players.

>

> Creating a grey market that obviously feeds from RMT is probably the worst solution here for you as a company and the majority of the player base.

 

Totally agree.......I'm actually really shocked that anet would say it's completely acceptable to buy and sell game content which are supposed to be played not bought.

In many MMORPGs, I would at least expect the developer to say "it's highly not encouraged".

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I actually don't care about raids or fractals. I have paid a friendly mesmer 250 ectos after he ported me through Charlice of Tears. He did not ask for it, but after all the time I spent on that monster until he showed up, he deserved it and he was pretty greatful. I was greatful, so it was a pleasant experience for both of us.

 

I really don't mind if people are selling raids, buying fractals or get carried through story instances. Some people spend a lot of time honing their skills and other just can't reach that level but can farm stuff (gold, ectos, rugged leather, flax) that the first group of people desire.

 

So from my POV it is a win-win situation. Outside of games - I don't know how to fix a car. But I have a job. I don't have the time to make delicious cake - luckily the bakery accepts money.

 

'Buying raids devalue titles' is not an argument from my point of view. The title holder might be skilled, lucky, got carried by friends, got carried by guildmates, paid for it whatever. He spent the time becoming really good. Or he spent the time befriending the right people. Or he spent the time farming the gold to buy it and others spent THEIR time to accumulate the skill to carry him. So all a title says is 'time was spent to do a certain something'. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The only thing that annoys me is that the pretty legendary armor is raid bound. THAT is a disgrace and was a really big mistake.

 

There are much worse things going on in this game that need attention. Like PVP rewards being much better than WVW. Or LW1 still not accessible. Bugged events in augury rock or Domain of Istan etc pp.

 

In the meantime, good luck to those who buy raids to find honest, friendly sellers, and good luck to those who sell them to find pleasant customers. You do your stuff, I do mine. You don't hurt me and I don't hurt you. So we all can be happy little kittens playing in a garden big enough for all of us.

[Umut.5471]

Selling runs with in-game gold should be acceptable.

[Ashamir.9574]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

 

> 'Buying raids devalue titles' is not an argument from my point of view. The title holder might be skilled, lucky, got carried by friends, got carried by guildmates, paid for it whatever. He spent the time becoming really good. Or he spent the time befriending the right people. Or he spent the time farming the gold to buy it and others spent THEIR time to accumulate the skill to carry him. So all a title says is 'time was spent to do a certain something'. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I completely agree with this.

 

I don't understand what "value" people are talking about here. You can buy everything in Gw2. The moment you invest enough real money you can literally have every shiny item without "working" for it in game. Even the HoT legendaries ... I finished Astralaria in 3 days because I had all the mats and only needed to the the achievements. So what value does it have? People helped me do some of the events required for the collection. Does that mean it's worth less?

 

The argument is ridiculous. **Everything you own in the game is only worth as much as you value it.** Some people have all legendaries and don't give a crap. Other's have one Winter's Heart infusion and are incredible proud of having completed everything to get it.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

have an easy mode version of raids with slightly different armor and achievements and this problem dissolves over night, simple.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> have an easy mode version of raids with slightly different armor and achievements and this problem dissolves over night, simple.

 

It's not _simple_ to implement. Part of the reason the "raid team" needs fewer people is that they are only building content at a narrow level of difficulty. Adding an "easy mode" means they have to do more work to balance, more playtesting. There's more room for errors. And, of course, it means balancing another set of rewards.

 

Regardless of the reasons, ANet has explicitly said they aren't planning on adding another difficulty level to raids.

[sorudo.9054]

since i don't believe in paying for runs (since i am not about to pay to get something as small as a skin anyone could get in-game) i personally think that Anet needs to be more strict about this, allot more strict.

if you want to help player do that because you like to do that, if you do it just for the gold you are just a low life to me, not worth my or anyone's time.

[Blude.6812]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> since i don't believe in paying for runs (since i am not about to pay to get something as small as a skin anyone could get in-game) i personally think that Anet needs to be more strict about this, allot more strict.

> if you want to help player do that because you like to do that, if you do it just for the gold you are just a low life to me, not worth my or anyone's time.

 

Maybe anet gets a cut.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> since i don't believe in paying for runs (since i am not about to pay to get something as small as a skin anyone could get in-game) i personally think that Anet needs to be more strict about this, allot more strict.

> if you want to help player do that because you like to do that, if you do it just for the gold you are just a low life to me, not worth my or anyone's time.

 

I see no functional difference between a player that got a kill/title/achi because they've got hard carried by their friends, and the one that got it because they've got hard carried by a group of people that were paid. In both cases kill/title/achi ends up with a person that couldn't do it with their own skill. And since i don't see Anet ever "being strict" with players for having skilled friends willing to carry them (for one, because it's practically impossible to enforce), i don't think they should do anything about paid runs either.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

Once you've gone this far in allowing players to obtain the rewards from content without needing, personally, to "do" the content, why not go the last few yards and just add all those rewards to the Gem Store? The difference is negligible at this point and it avoids all the scam/fraud issues plus it helps fund the game.

[Renoaku.4189]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> Over the last few months, we have seen a surge in the number of in-game sales related to the completion of challenging encounters and achievements. We've been gathering feedback both internally and externally and we wanted to provide some clarification to players about our policies on this subject.

>

> Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content. Other players have provided a service of convenience or carry through the years, and our official stance is that the selling or buying of runs is completely acceptable.

>

> However, there is a point where things get a little more tricky, such as when account sharing is involved, or when the transfer of enormous wealth for raid runs takes place. At this point, we believe we need to clarify a few things:

>

> - First, account sharing is incredibly risky, as it often leads to the compromise of the account, after which the account may be locked for an indefinite period of time, or permanently terminated. We very seldom are able to retrieve and return a previously shared account to its owner, which is why we strongly recommend that you never share your account with anyone.

>

> - Second, after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules.

>

> Purchasing a high-cost run directly, or purchasing gold or items to exchange for a run, is likely to result in account action against the purchaser and in some cases the runner(s), as well. While the runner(s) may be unaware that the funds originated from Fraud/RMT, in fact they can be found to be in possession of stolen goods and their account may be impacted by that involvement.

>

> In summary, the buying and selling of runs is acceptable, but ArenaNet does not officially support buyers or sellers. **Buying or selling of runs is done at your own risk.** If we investigate a transfer and establish that funds originated from fraud or RMT, we will take action against all parties involved. That action, depending on the situation, could include removal of funds, account suspension, and/or account termination.

 

**Confused about the second part.**

 

**But to clear something up it's unsafe for me to accept a "Investment" "Donation", or " Sell a run, or Power Leveling services" to another player for In-Game Gold, because if I do and that player does something illegal without my knowledge I could lose my account for not actually doing anything illegal?**

 

**So just for example, let's say I buy $8000 Gems, and decide to give $100 away to a friend, a random person for a run and I converted the Gems to gold to trade, would any of us get into trouble?**

 

Obviously after having a previous experience and losing my Albion Online account and a company that admit that "Evidence may not have been accurate" and a game company that act like dictators I learn from that experience how easy it is for a person to commit fraud like in "Guild Wars 2" or "Warframe" by using Charge-Backs, or Stolen information to swap Gems to Gold, and Sell it via 3rd party site for real money, but assuming that I actually give someone like 1k+ Gold for a run, and obviously there is no charge-back are either of us going to get into trouble?

 

Also if a person unknowingly gets gold from someone who did something they should have are they going to get account banned for life if there is no RMT involved.

 

**I generally don't accept payments from just anyone in a game obviously, and making gold in this game is easy**, but if I did happen to get like 50 gold or something from someone that I barely know is my account at risk?

 

**Oh and speaking of RMT** how does one define "Real Money Trading" would I get into trouble if for example I sold 10 gold to a real life friend for $5 and they gave me a $5 bill?

 

. Does this include any asset worth Real Money, such as "Real Life Gold Coins" "Items", or "Bit Coin".

. Does this include selling your time on a service like Fiverr to group and party with people for Real Money (Technically it's not illegal to sell your time") it would be illegal to sell in-game assets, or in-game currency kinda like in the real world Gentlemans clubs with Private Rooms, you're not selling sex, you're selling your time which makes it legal. (Though no one has challenged a game company in court yet over this but maybe one day.)

 

How is Real money truly defined because to me "Real Money" is handing someone actual paper money, but any asset that isn't Real Money controlled by the government isn't real money, Example Bit Coin, Lite Coin.

 

**A lot has changed since I last actually logged in seems game companies have became more strict on RMT, but I think the main issue is preventing cheaters, and fraud.**

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

They should of made raids like gw1. No achievements for raids, no legendary armor, just some type of currency that is dropped in the raid that is used to buy items which can be sold on the market to other players. Then nobody would buy runs, theyd just buy the items, could even make the legendary armor buyable. Everyone wins.

[Renoaku.4189]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> They should of made raids like gw1. No achievements for raids, no legendary armor, just some type of currency that is dropped in the raid that is used to buy items which can be sold on the market to other players. Then nobody would buy runs, theyd just buy the items, could even make the legendary armor buyable. Everyone wins.

 

Well they put in Gems to Gold because too many people Real Money Trade, but problem is this brings in fraud to the game company too...

I personally don't mind RMT, but when you RMT it brings spammers, and Cheaters who use illegal hacks to get the curency and i've seen them cheating scumbags years ago teleport hacking in GW2.

 

**Opinion**

- RMT should be legal if it's 100% hand gathered and no one cheated to get it ( and not being spammed in game, or advertised in any way.) For example I am on discord and offer to sell a friend 100 gold for $5.

 

- There should be laws protecting users selling their time for real money like on Fiverr for example I will party with you for 1 hour in game time and do whatever for $8.

 

^ Obviously these two could never be sold in game itself or advertised in game but users shouldn't get into trouble for this.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> @ Sojourner

>

> You missed the point.. they don't get help doing it.. its done for them and they just buy a kill or a chest.. that is not an achievement.

> It obviously does mean something to them.. otherwise why buy the run in the first place.. that right there makes your whole point moot.

> As for me accomplishing stuff.. no wrong again.. I don't expect to accomplish the raids achievs, I don't profess to be a raid specialist, but then again I am not so desperate for it that I go pay for the final chest or the final kill of a boss.

> That said it's about why the content was developed.. because players wanted something more challenging, higher level of skill/teamwork. That right there is why ANET allowing runs to be bought makes it a joke and invalidates the efforts of the devs to bring something to us.

> As for your attempt at an insult.... maybe grow up a little if you can't hold discussion without resorting trying to be a tryhard.

 

But it's like this in every MMO. I mean I know people who couldn't do certain bosses in certain games and asked their kids to do it for them. In Guild Wars 1, there were people who regularly sold specific runs as well. It's been going on for 10 years.

 

How many people beat Liadri using a life force steal build that was eventually fixed. I had to beat Liadri without that after the fact, because I didn't know about that build at the time people used it. It doesn't make them better. It doesn't make the Liadri title more valuable or less valuable. It makes the title mean less over all. But there's no way anyone can know that someone's kid or neighbor didn't sit down and get it for them either. Or they didn't give their password to a friend or guildie. There's simply no way to know.

 

What your title means, over all, depends on everyone playing games like this honestly. It's not an Olympic Sport and Liadri is solo content. To a lot of people cheating on that means very little. I might have used the life steal build but only became aware of it when they fixed it. I wanted the mini but I didn't enjoy the content. This year I buckled down and did it with a thief build. I STILL didn't enjoy the content. It wasn't fun for me. It was annoying and stressful and I don't feel like I accomplished anything except jumping through a hoop.

 

I'd like legendary armor. But I don't enjoy raiding. So I won't have it, unless I pay for it, which I've yet to do. You can say well, too bad it's part of the game. But I bought this game, after some research, because raids weren't in it, and that kind of content was few and far between. I have 19 legendary weapons, and I'm working on my 20th. But I enjoy all the content that is required to get to that point. I don't like coordinating with 9 other people at their convenience or schedule to get stuff done. Not my thing and never has been.

 

I left Rift because the end game, when I played anyway, funneled me into raids with no real option to to do anything else. Guild Wars 2 isn't like that. But there are not objects in the game I can't get without completely changing how I play and unfortunately it's not the game I signed on for. Still refuse to pay for raids though.

[Susy.7529]

> @"Renoaku.4189" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > They should of made raids like gw1. No achievements for raids, no legendary armor, just some type of currency that is dropped in the raid that is used to buy items which can be sold on the market to other players. Then nobody would buy runs, theyd just buy the items, could even make the legendary armor buyable. Everyone wins.

>

> Well they put in Gems to Gold because too many people Real Money Trade, but problem is this brings in fraud to the game company too...

> I personally don't mind RMT, but when you RMT it brings spammers, and Cheaters who use illegal hacks to get the curency and i've seen them cheating scumbags years ago teleport hacking in GW2.

>

> **Opinion**

> - RMT should be legal if it's 100% hand gathered and no one cheated to get it ( and not being spammed in game, or advertised in any way.) For example I am on discord and offer to sell a friend 100 gold for $5.

>

> - There should be laws protecting users selling their time for real money like on Fiverr for example I will party with you for 1 hour in game time and do whatever for $8.

>

> ^ Obviously these two could never be sold in game itself or advertised in game but users shouldn't get into trouble for this.

 

Your idea would be good for us, players, but not for anet since it would lead to the stopping of buying gems.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> They should of made raids like gw1. No achievements for raids, no legendary armor, just some type of currency that is dropped in the raid that is used to buy items which can be sold on the market to other players. Then nobody would buy runs, theyd just buy the items, could even make the legendary armor buyable. Everyone wins.

 

"Here, have this content far beyond anything else in the game but you get no rewards for it"

 

What could go wrong