Mesmer: Am I missing something, or....

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"tartarus.1082" said:

> > > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > All of those bursts require a multi step setup. There is absolutely no "100-0." Players who are not themselves Mesmers may not see the setup, but they should note the buildup of confusion and/or vulnerability. Mesmers withdraw when they are in trouble. Others should do likewise.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are finally moving toward the "high risk-High Reward" that we're supposed to be. For a very long time it's been "high Risk-Mediocre Reward."

> > > >

> > > > It might be multi hit but is still extremely short duration high damage dump which effectively 100-0 or at least 100-10 many targets.

> > > >

> > > > As much as I have thoroughly enjoyed and played power shatter in the past, I grew tired of the one-dimensional playstyle a long time ago. It is a little boring (people say condi is boring but tbh I find power shatter almost more boring unless played by very good and unpredictable players). I'd rather see power mesmer be shifted slightly more towards bruiser with high damage rather than pseudo glass (not really given the defences of mirage...) cannon with insane damage.

> > >

> > > I completely agree and hope the Phantasm changes and rework eventually lead us to that form of playstyle. I’ve also never liked the general linearity of the skills and how the spec plays

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That was the intent of the original Chronomancer. It was cut off at the knees, mid season after the outcry. I'd also note the Mirage is a bruiser spec. In fact, it could be argued that anet is pushing for that to be the only Mesmer playstyle.

>

> > @"BlackBeard.2873" said:

> > Any mirage build instantly has bruiser-level of survivability thanks to the insane invuln uptime.

> >

> > Burst mirage is high reward...near 0 risk...Sounds about par for the course with Anet balance team. Maybe they'll change it early 2019 with their snails pace of balance.

>

> Oh yes, Mirage has bruiser sustain, but it still has glass cannon burst - that is a problem. Personally I'd rather they keep the sustain on Mirage but adjust the burst output.

 

I think that’s going to be impossible. If you nerf the damage out put you’re neutering other builds that don’t have the sustain(through dodging so really nothing new there, people just run builds to have higher vigor up time/endurance regen on heal).

The entire concept of mirage is off. Anything that requires you to use your dodge for anything other than an evade is bad. Just look at how much crap daredevil gets and it came out when Chrono did.

 

This isn’t a Mesmer centric problem. It’s a Gw2 class wide problem as Anet isn’t capable of balancing core classes and elite specs. Each elite spec(for the most part) fixes a problem the core spec has rather than introducing a something new.

[BikeIsGone.8675]

Okay ..so as if I understood correctly, people are mostly complaining about Mirage survivability (sustain is simply the wrong word, because the heal on mirage is actually worse than on chronomancer). Which is fair imo. The stunbreak component on Elusive mind makes you able to dodge almost any high burst combo.

 

What I dont agree with, is saying that their burst is "OP". The GS burst combo is almost as old as the game itself and has been reduced to being a gimmick at best ever since HoT released. GS bursts have nothing to do with mirage and are just as "effective" without the elite spec. Stunbreaks, Stability, Aegis/blocks etc. etc. screw it over completely...not even talking about how you have to commit a kitten-ton of skills to pull it off.

 

[pah.4931]

Mesmers in GW2 remind me of priests in Hearthstone. Fun to play with, not fun AT ALL to play against. It's just a bad experience (which is the crux of why GW2 is so bad... Anet doesn't seem interested in manipulating the "experience" of the players and are focused all on numbers and spreadsheets).

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> Anet doesn't seem interested in manipulating the "experience" of the players and are focused all on numbers and spreadsheets).

 

Let's not do this ^

Yes, Mesmer still needs tweaking. That being said, they _did_ do a good job with the previous patch with bringing condi mes and scourge down a bit. I'd certainly wish they'd fix everything at once, but I'd rather they take small steps and find out where all the toxic people run when their generous class advantages dissipate, than try to fix everything at once and make it worse.

 

Also I really want to say that player experience should be on the backburner because bad players will always have a bad time, but in this case you are correct. It should be very clear to you, if you are not running full glass, what you could have done to not lose/win a match, assuming you know what each class does and have a general knowledge of what people are running based on how they look/what weapons they carry.

 

But, yknow. Let the meta settle first.

[pah.4931]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > Anet doesn't seem interested in manipulating the "experience" of the players and are focused all on numbers and spreadsheets).

>

> Let's not do this ^

> Yes, Mesmer still needs tweaking. That being said, they _did_ do a good job with the previous patch with bringing condi mes and scourge down a bit. I'd certainly wish they'd fix everything at once, but I'd rather they take small steps and find out where all the toxic people run when their generous class advantages dissipate, than try to fix everything at once and make it worse.

>

>

 

I'm not talking about class balance though. I am talking about making a fun experience for players who want to PvP. Anet doesn't do this. They just individually "balance" classes (which the PvP team doesn't even do... they just "Request" changes and hope the Professions Team listens) ... then they throw them all into a jar and hope for the best.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > Anet doesn't seem interested in manipulating the "experience" of the players and are focused all on numbers and spreadsheets).

> >

> > Let's not do this ^

> > Yes, Mesmer still needs tweaking. That being said, they _did_ do a good job with the previous patch with bringing condi mes and scourge down a bit. I'd certainly wish they'd fix everything at once, but I'd rather they take small steps and find out where all the toxic people run when their generous class advantages dissipate, than try to fix everything at once and make it worse.

> >

> >

>

> I'm not talking about class balance though. I am talking about making a fun experience for players who want to PvP. Anet doesn't do this. They just individually "balance" classes (which the PvP team doesn't even do... they just "Request" changes and hope the Professions Team listens) ... then they throw them all into a jar and hope for the best.

 

right right, I modified previous post.

 

> @"Oozo.7856" said:

> LOL, somebody said Mesmer is a high risk class. :-D

 

As much as I hate mesmer (even though I play one ((poorly)) ) that person _is technically right_ .

To be able to delete health bars, Mesmers sacrifice all their toughness. Yes they blow you up but if you catch one they die. They're similar to thief in that respect.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

As mentioned, invis spike bombing, going from 100-0 in less than 1s with a perfect set up. Condi mirages's DoT got gutted (making them much less OP than some previously claimed) so those who are faithful to Mirage are now going DPS.

 

Funny part is a lot of those crying condi mirage was OP is going to loooove the DPS Mirage xD

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"BikeIsGone.8675" said:

> > why are people calling power mirage OP now?

> >

>

> Because it took a condi Mirage's survability and replaced it's massive condition bursts with massive power bursts.

 

It didn't replace anything, power burst mesmer has been in the game forever... it lost favor because at high level play most people have already figured out how to counter it. Now that the better thought out build with fewer hard-counters is heavily nerfed, and now that they have some new toys to play with, the power build will gain popularity again. Whether it lasts... well that's another story.

[Forsty.7968]

> @"skeletonman.5348" said:

>

> > @"BikeIsGone.8675" said:

> > why are people calling power mirage OP now?

> >

>

>

> its the combination of high CC, with insane Burst, evades, mobiliy in forms of blinks or leaps (sword ambush), high stealth uptime on demand while not needing to be in melee range, portal play, invulnerability and endless stunbreak.

>

> revs dont have as much CC nor do they have stealth nor can they pressure outside of meele range nor do they have invulns.

>

> thieves have to be in meele range as well unless u play deadeye ( lul ) and shadow trap is just a weak version of portal and nobody plays it. thieves burst is high but not as high as mesmers. a backstab hurts but wont 1 hit in the current year. that was back in 2012. And a thief doesnt have endless stunnbreaks nor invuln,

>

> also s/d thieves dont have reliable stealth

>

> holos dont have endless stunnbreaks either, they have to be in melee range for the main bursts dmg, they have way less mobiliy than mesmer and by far not as many evades as mesmer nor do they have a portal.

>

> mesmer basically combines all the aspects of holo rev and thief a class needs as "dps role" in pvp.

 

Deadeye isnt a laughing matter

[Oeps Rolls Necro.2594]

As someone playing d/p thief only since this season in high gold/low plat i really dont see what the problem is with mesmers.

 

 

1. They stealth, wait 3 seconds and then dodge. They wasted half their skillbar for that, the only disengage they have now is portal and sword 1 jump.

 

2. You see them shattering, dodge through the clones. Not to the back, they still hit you.

 

3. Their glassy as fuck.

 

4. They got 0 defence in GS, maybe the push on 5.

 

5. If a mesmer is on GS and you see him raise his hand, DODGE. (GS4 incoming)

 

6. Try to bait out distortion, if its used , go full ham at him.

 

7. Important defensive cooldowns:

 

Blurried frenzy, 12seconds (sword 2)

 

Distortion 50 seconds (f4)

 

The prestige 30 seconds, 3seconds stealth (torch 4)

 

8. Im not a pvp/mesmer or whatever expert/pro so i can be wrong with some mesmer skills. But come on people, the burst is like 5 years old.

 

9. But yes, mesmer OP....nerf it. Buff thief, ty.

 

 

 

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Zintrothen.1056" said:

> Because it's just like condi Mirage. Constant rotation of kiting, stealthing, evading, stunbreaking, and then they can take out most of your hp with a single burst, forcing you to dodge when you would finally be able to hit them. Other professions have even most extreme damage, but at least you can hit them, and in one particular case (Holo), you can see the burst coming. Holo can be fun to fight. Mirage and mesmer in general is rarely fun to fight.

>

> By the way, can we finally make stealth a good mechanic? Fighting an invisible target isn't fun. There needs to be a way to make stealth more fun to fight against without making it bad.

 

Stealth was a mistake. Instantaneous, perfect invisibility which allows players to freely move and from which a player can instantly attack is an awful mechanic for any game. Mesmer should have just been clone position swapping and target breaking. Thief should have never existed.

[apharma.3741]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> mesmer op buff teef pls ok good

 

Increased rifle AA damage by 30%, increased damage of all other rifle skills by 50%.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Oeps Rolls Necro.2594" said:

> 5. If a mesmer is on GS and you see him raise his hand, DODGE. (GS4 incoming)

 

Just wanted to point out that they changed the animation for that to a spin, but otherwise I agree with your points for the most part.

 

 

[tartarus.1082]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Oeps Rolls Necro.2594" said:

> > 5. If a mesmer is on GS and you see him raise his hand, DODGE. (GS4 incoming)

>

> Just wanted to point out that they changed the animation for that to a spin, but otherwise I agree with your points for the most part.

>

>

 

I think he meant gs 2

 

 

[Azoqu.8917]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"Zintrothen.1056" said:

> > Because it's just like condi Mirage. Constant rotation of kiting, stealthing, evading, stunbreaking, and then they can take out most of your hp with a single burst, forcing you to dodge when you would finally be able to hit them. Other professions have even most extreme damage, but at least you can hit them, and in one particular case (Holo), you can see the burst coming. Holo can be fun to fight. Mirage and mesmer in general is rarely fun to fight.

> >

> > By the way, can we finally make stealth a good mechanic? Fighting an invisible target isn't fun. There needs to be a way to make stealth more fun to fight against without making it bad.

>

> Stealth was a mistake. Instantaneous, perfect invisibility which allows players to freely move and from which a player can instantly attack is an awful mechanic for any game. Mesmer should have just been clone position swapping and target breaking. Thief should have never existed.

 

Ever since they announced Thief way long ago before the game came out, I groaned so hard about stealth being added to the game. There is not proper way to ever balance stealth in games. Either it is completely OP, because getting the first hit in is super valuable, or it is completely UP because the class depends on it but is too easy to counter. Thieves should have just been like Assassins from GW1 where they port in and out of combat, trying to quickly kill people while being pure glass. Mesmers, I agree, should have never had stealth and should have been more about swapping spots with their clones. The amount of dodges and invincibility that it has is way out of control.

 

This is the sPvP forum, so don't get me started on how Anet's favorite class is doing in PvE.

[Alcazaro.7618]

you all have to learn to dodge gs burst, which most of the people learned in vanilla days, come back after that and discuss then. GS isnt even meta there for mirage and chrono other builds which performs a way better, because thief (specially s/d) and holo, i think even rev can chase the mes when hes on GS and has wepswap cd to sword, theres no way for the mesmer except gs4 and clunky gs3 (which force youre character model to not move while casting it) to counter pressure them, the other possibiltys are an about face mirror or gs5 that was it. let me tell you that decent players are actually able to dodge gs shatter because it isnt an insta animation like ele fa. If an GS mes wants to burst in TF he needs to go meele to nearly oneshot an already damaged target, this is forcing dodge, jaunt and bascicly all of youre burst cds again ... mesmer is uselss after that. if the mesmer want to be a +1 role he has to be carefull against thief following up into a 2v2 which isb ad for the mes, or even +1 youre own druid is bad since druid focus 0 cds out of his enemy (holo, sb, druid). The real problem is that the average skill of people is lower than ever and anet keep up doing low tier balance patches which make most of the classes easier to use. im a super rusted player and somehow i am hidden top 10 na and eu while playing everyday another super random build and not even tryharding, that wouldnt be possible a few seasons ago xD.

 

btw: i am the last one trying to protect anything or stuff like that, because i am just here for 1 month playing the game again through rl time reasons i wont be even able to play the game for months after march so i really dont care what anet does to his game, but i just facepalm myself when i read the posts here.

[Odik.4587]

Why wont you let them be in their sweet ignorance?:D