Loot Box legislation and the future of RNG items in the BLM

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> Why do you think the statuettes got added?

 

Exactly. Now they can point to the BLCs and say that you’re “buying” the guaranteed BLS and the RNG-based stuff are just “extra freebies”.

 

Anet’s Mom didn’t raise no fool!

 

[Hypatia.3160]

> @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> Seems to me legislation is the wrong way to do things here anyway.

 

These bills are the shot across the bow to the industry. Fix it yourself or we're going to fix it for you and you will **not** like the way we fix it.

 

The ESRB is the industry's self-regulatory body in the US. They do not have the customer's best interests at heart so any claims they make on what is or is not gambling should be considered highly suspect. Buying company scrip (eg. Gems) does not insulate them against being regulated any more than casino chips do.

 

And for the record I don't mind cash shops and have been known to spend a bit but *only* when I consider the transaction fair. $20 mounts and gamble boxes do not fall under my definition of fair.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"Hypatia.3160" said:

> > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > Seems to me legislation is the wrong way to do things here anyway.

>

> These bills are the shot across the bow to the industry. Fix it yourself or we're going to fix it for you and you will **not** like the way we fix it.

>

> The ESRB is the industry's self-regulatory body in the US. They do not have the customer's best interests at heart so any claims they make on what is or is not gambling should be considered highly suspect. Buying company scrip (eg. Gems) does not insulate them against being regulated any more than casino chips do.

>

> And for the record I don't mind cash shops and have been known to spend a bit but *only* when I consider the transaction fair. $20 mounts and gamble boxes do not fall under my definition of fair.

 

We won't like they way they fix it because they will do a bad job more than likely...not because they're threatening. Like I said...they should "force" the ESRB to actually regulate by the suggestion I gave. Or better define gambling for this generation.

 

It is silly to say "this regulatory body doesn't have the consumer interest at heart" then make another "regulatory body from the government" that will probably fail the consumer again anyway. I recall how un-elected bureaucrats for a regulatory body (that was for a government) did something similar. FCC on net neutrality. Regardless if you're for or against it. This is the danger of giving TOO much power, _they can by-pass checks and balances to make a super rushed decision_. As Na pointed out...**it looks rushed. That's an issue.**

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> From ESRB From Forbes article:

>

> _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_

 

ESRB is not law, it's a self-regulating organization created and funded by game studios.

 

However there are several US state Legislators and other countries (such as Belgium) that have stated they will be analysing and possibly drafting regulation for that.

 

> @"MachineManXX.9746" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > > > From ESRB From Forbes article:

> > > > >

> > > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_

> > > > That is an old article I think?

> > > >

> > > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

> > > >

> > > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*.

> > > >

> > > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*.

> > > >

> > > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

> > > >

> > >

> > > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

> > You dont know how slot machines work?

> >

> > You dont "win or loose". You often win in a manner thats not ideal - less than you wagered, less than you wanted. Thats why they are freaking addictive and a vast majority of casino earnings. Its still a win, maybe next time is a better win. The very purpose of this behaviour is predatory and aimed at keeping the player engaged for a longer time at the slot machine, to make them... enjoy it. Sounds familiar? Here is a hint - "live services".

> >

> > Again, I do not think BL chest are bad. But its the same mechanics.

>

> Hmm, last time I was in a Casino, I dropped a dollar into the slot machine. I pushed the button and things spun around. After things spun around, nothing happened. I didn't get any money back. I got nothing, zero. I figured I LOST.

>

> Every single time I opened a black lion chest, I got something! Guess there is a difference after all.

 

Not really. There's a lot of "always win" lotteries where you can lose. Let me put it this way: You put in a dollar in a slot machine. It gives you back a quarter (25c), did you win?

[artemis.6781]

I could buy your argument of gambling if Anet did not have a gold to gem currency. Since Anet always for you to exchange your in game virtual currency (gold) for real life currency that you buy (gems) I see no problem with BLC.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > I want to add one more thing.... I HOPE if legislation like this happens they start charging a monthly fee to the game...people quit and you whiners have ruined a good game.

>

> I wouldn’t quit after a monthly fee, but I know _many_ will.

> Buy2Play is what drew many to the GW and GW2 universe, and many would leave/not be drawn into the game with a P2P mode.

> When I was a kid I got to choose between GW1 and WoW.. well.. obvious choice.

> But the gemstore is a necessity for a Buy2Play game to survive, its their revenue between expansions.

 

I probably would quit because I can play GW2 at my leisure. When there is a monthly fee then I feel I NEED to play. One of the reasons I left two other MMOs.

 

Also let me apologize for the previous comment I made as I was frustrated because this topic has been getting beat to death as of late.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Oriens.5630" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > Where is your evidence (you know link to a reputable source) for this "legislation".

>

> https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2018/02/15/us-senator-confronts-the-esrb-over-loot-box-classification-and-addiction/#2c6c0d835a97

>

> https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2018/02/13/ea-activision-and-others-should-be-afraid-of-hawaiis-new-loot-box-bills/#1a701ea6b5ff

>

> https://kotaku.com/this-week-in-the-business-legislators-and-loot-boxes-1823099258

>

> https://www.pcgamer.com/loot-boxes-are-bad-but-new-legislation-could-be-worse/

>

> https://www.pcgamer.com/us-senator-calls-on-esrb-to-take-action-on-loot-boxes-suggests-ftc-could-get-involved/

>

> https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/02/us-senator-demands-review-of-loot-box-policies-citing-potential-harm/

>

> https://www.pcgamer.com/cd-projekt-red-responds-to-loot-box-controversy/

 

Great! So let me ask a question. What do you actually want to see happen?

 

You buy gems and you purchase a new outfit

You buy gems and you buy a new mount skin

You buy gems and you buy a new "insert object of affection"

Everyone seems to be okay with this

 

You buy gems and you buy keys with said gems and you do not get what you want so now it's unfair? There is a reason why things are very rare. If you take the ESRB response further up this chain I posted they make the perfect example of how looting even in the real world with trading cards.

 

The question seems to be targeted at kids or people under 18. Unless they are stealing mom and dad's credit cards they get gems with gold or maybe buy gem cards at the store. I do not buy a lot of gems. I know people that do. So punish punish the game designer and game community because someone didn't get what they want. That is how it sounds to me. I am not directing at you because I am not sure of your stance if you just wanted to create a topic or you have some type of concern.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Hypatia.3160" said:

> > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > Seems to me legislation is the wrong way to do things here anyway.

 

> And for the record I don't mind cash shops and have been known to spend a bit but *only* when I consider the transaction fair. $20 mounts and gamble boxes do not fall under my definition of fair.

 

How can this be any better explained as it has in the past..... This is ANET income source. YOU as the consumer are not forced to buy anything. How is it unfair? Would you rather see loot boxes and skins and what not go away and we go to monthly fee? What is *fair* to you is your opinion. Now with that being said it appears I am this big supporter of loot boxes and high priced skins. I am not. I find that to beautify my mounts is not important and never bought any of these skins. I have bought keys....idk... maybe 6 times with cash and rolled the dice. I have wasted more gold to gems to roll the dice and though I get mad at myself sometimes I already know that the outcome for a nice pricey item is prolly not gonna happen...

 

[Neural.1824]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

 

> When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

 

When you win with a slot machine, you walk away with real money that belongs to you. The minute you buy gems, you lose, no matter what you get out of the chest. The Terms of Services and EULA define that all items in game are the property of Arenanet, and they allow you to use them.

 

With real world casinos, the house wins most of the time. With games, the house wins 100%, no exceptions.

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > > From ESRB From Forbes article:

> > > >

> > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_

> > > That is an old article I think?

> > >

> > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

> > >

> > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*.

> > >

> > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*.

> > >

> > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

> > >

> >

> > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

> You dont know how slot machines work?

>

> You dont "win or loose". You often win in a manner thats not ideal - less than you wagered, less than you wanted. Thats why they are freaking addictive and a vast majority of casino earnings. Its still a win, maybe next time is a better win. The very purpose of this behaviour is predatory and aimed at keeping the player engaged for a longer time at the slot machine, to make them... enjoy it. Sounds familiar? Here is a hint - "live services".

>

> Again, I do not think BL chest are bad. But its the same mechanics.

 

Please go to a casino and actually play at slot machines. There are various ways to wins, with what you win differing amongst them, but when you lose, you get nothing. I can easily spend $10 at a slot machine and not win a single penny. This is vastly different than black lion chests when you get something with every single chest.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Neural.1824" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

>

> > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

>

> When you win with a slot machine, you walk away with real money that belongs to you. The minute you buy gems, you lose, no matter what you get out of the chest. The Terms of Services and EULA define that all items in game are the property of Arenanet, and they allow you to use them.

>

> With real world casinos, the house wins most of the time. With games, the house wins 100%, no exceptions.

>

>

 

That’s true. Nothing people get in the game truly belongs to them.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Oriens.5630" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Oriens.5630" said:

>

> > And I hear posters saying "Well, Anet, doncha wanna take a pre-emptive steps before this goes into affect" to which I can only say you individuals are more insidious than the money grubbing companies trying to squeeze money from players.

>

> Parts of your reply were helpful for me, thank you.

>

> But I'm unclear as to how simple curiousity is "insidious". That kind of thinking frightens me actually. "You ask questions, you are the enemy!" That simply isn't rational.

>

>

 

Well, the way I worded it, there was no question but more closer to a pretentious demand guised as a request. Those individuals are more concerned with getting their goods than protecting individuals from overspending on gambling. They will virtue signal all day about how things could affect vulnerable individuals but in the shadows, they don't care about the people they pretend to worry about nor the company that provides them entertainment. They just want their loot and to heck with everyone else.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Please go to a casino and actually play at slot machines. There are various ways to wins, with what you win differing amongst them, but when you lose, you get nothing. I can easily spend $10 at a slot machine and not win a single penny. This is vastly different than black lion chests when you get something with every single chest.

That you get "something" back every chest is irrelevant. It's still the same mechanic that drives both. The value of that something is always relative, just like the payback from a casino is. If I get a booster or two to add to my bank collection of crap I never use, the value was zero to me. And the next time, I get a glider skin. And the next time I get stuff I might as well throw away because again it's worthless to me. And the time after that I got weapon skin. *It's a kitten slot machine*.

 

If Anet added the new statuette currency to cover their asses on this in particular I dont know, I really wonder if that helps. If that's the case, everyone can just throw it in and say "its ok now". In fact Battlefront 2 lootboxes that lit this whole debacle on fire would be perfectly ok as well. They always gave you that scrap currency if you had a duplicate of what dropped, right? Too bad the politicians didnt know they always gave something, I guess.

[mercury ranique.2170]

I live in a country with very strong legislation against online gambling. But they allready make a difference between lootboxes like them in gw2 and those in the EA game that sparked the dicussion. Looking at gambling, the lawmaker has to look at the mechanic, but also the input and he reward. Specifically the value of the reward. The reward in gw2 is holding no real value. They are convinience items and skins. This is very different from gamble to win (the game) or gamble to recieve something with a real life value.

I have no doubt that the gw2 RNG system will survive any legislation (if needed after passing legal procedures if the lawmaker didnt do their job well enough)

For those spending too much money on gw2 lootboxes. You do not have a gambling addiction. You have a gaming addiction. Seek help for it. It is not the mechanic that is the issue. If the mechanic was changed and demanded to play for 48 hours straight, you would also do it.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > From ESRB From Forbes article:

> >

> > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_

> That is an old article I think?

>

> If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

>

> Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*.

>

> *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*.

>

> Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

>

 

The article is 3 days old. I forgot to link it in the quote :

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2018/02/15/us-senator-confronts-the-esrb-over-loot-box-classification-and-addiction/#4a3aef645a97

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Please go to a casino and actually play at slot machines. There are various ways to wins, with what you win differing amongst them, but when you lose, you get nothing. I can easily spend $10 at a slot machine and not win a single penny. This is vastly different than black lion chests when you get something with every single chest.

> That you get "something" back every chest is irrelevant. It's still the same mechanic that drives both. The value of that something is always relative, just like the payback from a casino is. If I get a booster or two to add to my bank collection of crap I never use, the value was zero to me. And the next time, I get a glider skin. And the next time I get stuff I might as well throw away because again it's worthless to me. And the time after that I got weapon skin. *It's a kitten slot machine*.

>

> If Anet added the new statuette currency to cover their kitten on this in particular I dont know, I really wonder if that helps. If that's the case, everyone can just throw it in and say "its ok now". In fact Battlefront 2 lootboxes that lit this whole debacle on fire would be perfectly ok as well. They always gave you that scrap currency if you had a duplicate of what dropped, right? Too bad the politicians didnt know they always gave something, I guess.

 

Let's take your line of thinking to another level. If you do not play a slot machine you do not win or lose. Same thing with the Loot Boxes. If you don't buy the keys you do not win or lose. Buyers remorse when you do not get something of value???

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > Please go to a casino and actually play at slot machines. There are various ways to wins, with what you win differing amongst them, but when you lose, you get nothing. I can easily spend $10 at a slot machine and not win a single penny. This is vastly different than black lion chests when you get something with every single chest.

> > That you get "something" back every chest is irrelevant. It's still the same mechanic that drives both. The value of that something is always relative, just like the payback from a casino is. If I get a booster or two to add to my bank collection of crap I never use, the value was zero to me. And the next time, I get a glider skin. And the next time I get stuff I might as well throw away because again it's worthless to me. And the time after that I got weapon skin. *It's a kitten slot machine*.

> >

> > If Anet added the new statuette currency to cover their kitten on this in particular I dont know, I really wonder if that helps. If that's the case, everyone can just throw it in and say "its ok now". In fact Battlefront 2 lootboxes that lit this whole debacle on fire would be perfectly ok as well. They always gave you that scrap currency if you had a duplicate of what dropped, right? Too bad the politicians didnt know they always gave something, I guess.

>

> Let's take your line of thinking to another level. If you do not play a slot machine you do not win or lose. Same thing with the Loot Boxes. If you don't buy the keys you do not win or lose. Buyers remorse when you do not get something of value???

 

By that logic loot crates and gambling strategies would be ok everywhere.

Gambling is way too prevalent in GW2 right now, they invested in it highly with PoF, and i personally find it highly insidious.

What was once an exception in the game (Black lion chests and dyes) that was also kinda justified because you could actually buy those things from the TP from players who got them in the chest (although highly inflated), is slowly becoming a norm.

Now you have the skritt ecto gambling, the casino ecto gambling (which is required for 20+ slot bags), then the mount boxes.

It's something that is out of place and devalues the game itself, because everything that takes choice and control away from the player is not a positive way to deliver content.

 

Also there's the social side of it. There's a lot of people and little kids that are exposed to gambling hidden inside these practices that end up ruining their lives and their families lives because of this.

And if you think i'm exaggerating, go say that to my cousin who's 6 year old son spent 900€ in a "for kid's" mobile game.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> When will you people get over this topic? Where is your evidence (you know link to a reputable source) for this "legislation". The game is pretty much free to play. You buy the game and you play. No monthly fees. No advantage to what is in the BL Chests except one may look prettier than another. It's a source of income for a no monthly fee game and you want stuff for free...

 

Just curious, what motivates you to come to the defense of a corporation?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> Why do you think the statuettes got added?

 

This. ANet has already answered the OP's question. They have preemptively made it so that BL Chests always provide progress towards the goal of getting a specific virtual gewgaw. The statuette implementation means that there is a fixed cost for obtaining desired pixel bits. The RNG mechanics permit one to accumulate statuettes faster, or even get a desired item. However, with the addition of a fixed cost mechanic, legislation about gambling (whether the law addresses de facto or de jure gambling) will not apply.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Neural.1824" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

>

> > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

>

> When you win with a slot machine, you walk away with real money that belongs to you. The minute you buy gems, you lose, no matter what you get out of the chest. The Terms of Services and EULA define that all items in game are the property of Arenanet, and they allow you to use them.

>

> With real world casinos, the house wins most of the time. With games, the house wins 100%, no exceptions.

>

>

 

No ... you don't lose if you buy gems. You need to understand what you actually pay for ... it's ACCESS, not ownership and that's not a new thing either. it's important to understand that EVEN more with this kind of legislation because technically, if you are buying access and not a chance to own something in the game, then it can't be gambling. Technically, buying keys with gems is simply paying for the ACCESS to open a chest ... whether you get something is irrelevant; Anet could have made them have a chance to be empty.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > When will you people get over this topic? Where is your evidence (you know link to a reputable source) for this "legislation". The game is pretty much free to play. You buy the game and you play. No monthly fees. No advantage to what is in the BL Chests except one may look prettier than another. It's a source of income for a no monthly fee game and you want stuff for free...

>

> Just curious, what motivates you to come to the defense of a corporation?

 

Sigh... I have to be nice because ANET says so in forum guidelines... so here goes:

 

This is a game. A very good game imo. This topic has been brought up many times recently. The OP Makes an opening statement that he/she wants a statement on ANETs stance. It has been covered. The OP then makes a statement:

 

> @"Oriens.5630" said:

> I'm actually a bit confounded at the replies to my OP that are so hostile.

 

I do not know why the OP did not think there was going to be some backlash because of how this topic has fared in the past.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18625/

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17315/

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26456/

 

Didn't get the loot:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/389803#Comment_389803

 

I am not sticking up for ANET but simply I can say what they cannot in opinion. If people really want to compare this to gambling...well...don't gamble. Again though the ESRB is a rating system that was created because people were offended by certain game content or in other words "in response to criticism of controversial video games with excessively violent or sexual content." and to try and set guidelines and ratings based content and on the CONSUMER who complained. NOW because the ESRB states this really isn't gambling... now THEY are wrong too and the CONSUMER feels jilted. NOW if ANET drove to your house and forcefully made you buy gems to get keys for loot boxes... well then that is an issue. I have seen ANET slowly coming to terms with really getting involved in the community and what this community wants only to see people come back here and bash on them for what they wanted AS A COMMUNITY.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > From ESRB From Forbes article:

> >

> > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_

> That is an old article I think?

>

> If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

>

> Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*.

>

> *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*.

>

> Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

>

 

Unfortunately for a lot of people the United States has a published definition of gambling in the Federal Register...and based on that definition loot boxes do not qualify. One of the lines in there says that definition of gambling means there is a chance you will not get anything from the "game", since you are guaranteed an item from "loot boxes" they are technically not gambling under U.S. definition(not sure what the definition is in the rest of the world but we do have it published in writing). So what the ESRB is saying is actually legally correct, however it seems even our "esteemed" elected officials seem to have forgotten that as a country we decided to define what gambling is and it's doesn't equate to "loot boxes".

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > > From ESRB From Forbes article:

> > > >

> > > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_

> > > That is an old article I think?

> > >

> > > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

> > >

> > > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*.

> > >

> > > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*.

> > >

> > > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

> > >

> >

> > When you gamble with a slot machine, you either win or you lose. You always get something with Black lion chests.

> You dont know how slot machines work?

>

> You dont "win or loose". You often win in a manner thats not ideal - less than you wagered, less than you wanted. Thats why they are freaking addictive and a vast majority of casino earnings. Its still a win, maybe next time is a better win. The very purpose of this behaviour is predatory and aimed at keeping the player engaged for a longer time at the slot machine, to make them... enjoy it. Sounds familiar? Here is a hint - "live services".

>

> Again, I do not think BL chest are bad. But its the same mechanics.

 

Actually, you don't know how slot machines work...I know people in the industry, and different machines are set up specifically to make payouts and others will never payout, until it's time to change the settings again...which all casinos do periodically, reversing the previous payout/non-payout machines. Just sit and watch players in any casino for several hours some time...you'll see some machines always going off, and others never making a sound. It's all an aural psychological setting designed to lure players to sit down and continue poring money into those machines that aren't going to pay out...if you see a machine "out-of-service" it's because the casino is in the process of changing it's settings. "Loot boxes" are nothing like slot machines in that sense.

[OneYenShort.3189]

I love how people have focused on GW2 styled loot box of the BL chest. I forsee these will always be legal honestly.

Besides listing what you are guarinteed to get, they state also what you could get (just not the % chance.). Next up is because of the in game gold to gem conversion, this will make the legalese of those even more tricky because a player does not have to spend any real monies to get the keys for those chests. If anything the legeslation would do anet a hell of a favor because then they'd have to make the keys valued at gold. So you'd have to buy gems, convert to gold, and then open your chests.

 

Frankly the only thing I've seen Anet sell in the store that makes me think that it should be not be in game (as it is currently.) are the mount adoption contracts. I have no idea if a person who has not purchased HoT can buy them. However, we know for fact that purchasing a contract does NOT guarantee that the user will ever be able to make use of their winning. Griffons are locked behind a gold sink. This is something, some players will never over come. (Hush, you know it is true no matter what you may want to believe. Some people just won't put in the effort for whatever reason.) This means they'll never be able to use what they "paid for". That is a loss, and therefore it is gambling.

Lets say the person bought a contract and got something like say... the bunny. While all they have to do is the story to unlock it, should something happen to said player or player account that they never unlock it, that would be a loss as well. They paid for something and never got anything they could use.

This is the only item I really see that Anet could get in trouble with, and the basic answer we got from the current director was "screw off, we aren't changing it. Instead we'll just put things out individually that the appeals to rich people."

 

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > From ESRB From Forbes article:

> > >

> > > _“ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling,” said an ESRB spokesperson. “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want). We think of it as a similar principle to collectible card games: Sometimes you’ll open a pack and get a brand new holographic card you’ve had your eye on for a while. But other times you’ll end up with a pack of cards you already have.”_

> > That is an old article I think?

> >

> > If ESRB doesnt fix their kitten themselves, I am fairly certain FTC will tell them to fix their kitten themselves or the government will regulate it.

> >

> > Some of the arguments that its "different" because you are buying keys and not boxes is hilarious, or ESRB argument that you are always getting something so its not gaming is just... *mindboggling*.

> >

> > *Its kitten identical to a slot machine*.

> >

> > Is GW2s loot boxes of the bad kind? No, they're not. I dont think they are bad. Its a fairly good implementation of loot boxes and the gold to gems option is an excellent icing on the cake. Its what make many people still enjoy GW2, there is no kitten p2w hidden in the boxes. But thats not really the point, is it? Its still loot boxes. Anet **could** easily manipulate droprates without oversight and more predatory. How do we know an item that we want is really in them, even if the game goes "huehuehue its a very small chance of drop trust me buy more keys"? What, players are gonna confirm it for us? All well and good because its not *my* money but imagine if casino regulations was based around the casinos just saying "just come and gamble your money away, you'll find out the win rates" lol.

> >

>

> Unfortunately for a lot of people the United States has a published definition of gambling in the Federal Register...and based on that definition loot boxes do not qualify. One of the lines in there says that definition of gambling means there is a chance you will not get anything from the "game", since you are guaranteed an item from "loot boxes" they are technically not gambling under U.S. definition(not sure what the definition is in the rest of the world but we do have it published in writing). So what the ESRB is saying is actually legally correct, however it seems even our "esteemed" elected officials seem to have forgotten that as a country we decided to define what gambling is and it's doesn't equate to "loot boxes".

 

What I don't understand is that this would be legislation to stop victims from being exploited by or harbor addiction to gambling. But what percentage of people are actual victims? And victims shouldn't include "buyer's remorse", but actual individuals who are addicted or show clear predisposition to gambling.

 

If lootboxes are a problem, why not legislation allow refunds with accompanying penalty or something? If an individual chooses to get refunded, allow it but bar their account from purchasing the RNG items or just ban the account. At that point, you're trying to isolate the victim from the problem so they cannot make the same mistakes rather than punishing everyone else for the personal issues of the few.

 

The reality is, if video games just remove the concept of loot boxes, they will just be replaced with some other mechanism to get players to spend time and money on the game. That is ultimately the purpose of these items. What it gets replaced with (either it being a relentless grind, some time-gated high-sacrifice mechanic, diminished prizes or what have you) likely won't feel any better in the long run, just seem "fairer" to individuals pressing for changes.