PvP/WvW Skill Split Release

[Raffboy.8364]

Ive been playing around with Renegade in WvW and to my suprise its actually working. There are some changes that would help the spec more than just buffing the damage. Summoning the Chars takes a little bit too long in any hectic 1v1 or small teamfight type situation. Half a second would be perfectly fine because it takes a while untill the Charrs attack anyway, so there is no real harm and i dont think it would break pve . Another thing is that playing Revernant outside of Herald can be very daunting because the access to swiftness is really peoblematic, which makes roaming kinda exhausting. My proposal for that would be to buff the talent "Rapid Flow" and give it a 20sec swiftness duration or something like that. It would be an easy fix and it would bring some build diversity back to the Revernant. Lots of people dont wanna play anything but Hreald because of the lack of movement speed increase.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > > 'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

> >

> > Good to hear. I can't wait to see the second draft of the proposed mesmer changes especially. Please take into consideration our (mesmer players) thoughts on the EM change, many of us would rather lose the stunbreak entirely (and indeed some of us have wanted this change ever since the trait was originally leaked.....) than have exhaustion tacked on haphazardly like the first round of proposed changes suggested. There is some great discussion in the mesmer forums about why exhaustion not only hurts the class quite a bit more than it affects DD, while also not even addressing the root issue with EM, which is stunbreaks on ridiculously short CDs that allow us to then launch back an ambush attack, while also evading attacks.

> "Many of us" is a little disingenuous.

>

> As far as I know from the forum it is only a few people including yourself that wants to lose the stunbreak entirely.

>

> I would hazard a guess that many if not most on here want to keep the stunbreak element as it allows freeing up utility slots for other skills than stunbreaks. I certainly prefer to have the stunbreak on dodge so I don't need to use utility skills for it aside from blink.

>

> Anyway of course, I agree with exhaustion being a mistake, and I would prefer keeping the stunbreak with the ICD only solution, or your other proposed solution of converting stun and other cc into daze - allowing movement from cc but no skill casting.

 

Mesmer has always had an abundance of stunbreaks, its not like we are exactly left wanting for one if EM loses it entirely. And its fundamentally a good design choice if you are forced to use one of your utility slots to take more stunbreaks if you want to be able to escape more stuns. You should have to give something up to slot stunbreaks, and EM doesn't force you to give everything up, while at the same time exhaustion forces you to give up too much, for too long of a timeframe.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > > > 'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

> > >

> > > Good to hear. I can't wait to see the second draft of the proposed mesmer changes especially. Please take into consideration our (mesmer players) thoughts on the EM change, many of us would rather lose the stunbreak entirely (and indeed some of us have wanted this change ever since the trait was originally leaked.....) than have exhaustion tacked on haphazardly like the first round of proposed changes suggested. There is some great discussion in the mesmer forums about why exhaustion not only hurts the class quite a bit more than it affects DD, while also not even addressing the root issue with EM, which is stunbreaks on ridiculously short CDs that allow us to then launch back an ambush attack, while also evading attacks.

> > "Many of us" is a little disingenuous.

> >

> > As far as I know from the forum it is only a few people including yourself that wants to lose the stunbreak entirely.

> >

> > I would hazard a guess that many if not most on here want to keep the stunbreak element as it allows freeing up utility slots for other skills than stunbreaks. I certainly prefer to have the stunbreak on dodge so I don't need to use utility skills for it aside from blink.

> >

> > Anyway of course, I agree with exhaustion being a mistake, and I would prefer keeping the stunbreak with the ICD only solution, or your other proposed solution of converting stun and other cc into daze - allowing movement from cc but no skill casting.

>

> Mesmer has always had an abundance of stunbreaks, its not like we are exactly left wanting for one if EM loses it entirely. And its fundamentally a good design choice if you are forced to use one of your utility slots to take more stunbreaks if you want to be able to escape more stuns. You should have to give something up to slot stunbreaks, and EM doesn't force you to give everything up, while at the same time exhaustion forces you to give up too much, for too long of a timeframe.

 

We only have a few stunbreak utilities - Blink, Decoy, Mantra, Mirror Images and Signet, and personally I really don't want to go back to the time when everyone just took Blink and Decoy because that used to be extremely boring (or now it would be Blink and Signet of Midnight since they buffed it).

 

There are so many more utilities that are not stunbreaks, I've personally enjoyed the freedom experimenting with different skills I'd otherwise never use seriously, thanks to having access to stunbreak on dodge.

 

Given the amount of frequent cc spam available to everyone, I believe everyone should be able to slot at least a few stunbreaks as standard - just like everyone ought to take a few condition cleanse, healing and so on. It's a standard part of every build that you shouldn't have to give up anything for.

 

The only thing excessive on EM is the frequency of stunbreak, especially when considering vigour, food in wvw and sigils/runes.

 

However the frequency of dodge access and condi cleanse access should not suffer due to the frequency of stunbreak access being too high - hence the exhaustion mechanic I agree is dysfunctional.

 

But having a simple ICD on the stunbreak still allows you to use dodge for stunbreak which there is nothing wrong with, but at a less frequent rate that would be balanced.

 

The only way I could possibly accept losing stunbreak on EM is if they made at least Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush both stunbreaks, which in some ways could be a good solution but would require more work than adjusting one trait.

[floppypuppy.5789]

This post is about a Renegade skill split I think needs to happen.

 

I have recently discovered the circumstances in which the Renegade Warband skills are reasonably strong and when the shortbow doesn't suck. Unfortunately these circumstances exist *only* in PvP when fighting over a capture point. There is no possibility of that synergy working in WvW unless you turn the warband into shade equivalents (which I would not recommend).

 

My suggestion is to therefore give Soulcleave a 1 sec icd in WvW and retune the shortbow accordingly (for WvW). Don't worry that this makes the basic idea behind the legend useless, or that Renegade has no sustain without it, right now it simply doesn't work in WvW so you really lose nothing. A cele shortbow Renegade would be a nice jack-of-all-trades addition to WvW. It might even make sense to retune the other mediocre PoF weapons for WvW as well.

[Toron.4856]

> @"gonso.4268" said:

> So..... SB Warrior is dead right?

 

Spellbreaker is dead after the patch. Core war is gonna be the better pick. Wonder if core war could make it into meta lol

 

unless the devs change something about the nerfs and decide not to nerf every single relevant spellbreaker skill for pvp (weapon, burst and utility skills)

 

which is not gonna happen.. so yeah. goodbye spellbreaker was nice having u in the meta for 2 seasons LUL

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Auturgist.8256" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Auturgist.8256" said:

> >

> > > 2. You say you want to increase build diversity, and decrease the power of some of the more dominant builds, but I don't see a single thing here addressing the absurdity of Deadeyes' burst damage from what is essentially perma-stealth (something ArenaNet has been opposed to in principle regarding the design of the Thief since the release of the game, if I'm not mistaken). How does this happen? How do you overlook this?

> >

> > I main rifle, but I don't use Death's Judgement - I don't even use kneel unless I'm fighting a tower or keep lord and there are no enemy players around. But I have to play devils advocate here...In what world is the stealth driven Death's Judgement build considered a "dominant" build? I see more Dagger/Dagger *power* Thieves than Death's Judgement Thieves.

>

> Maybe "dominant" doesn't describe that very well, but there's very little counterplay to getting one-shot and it happens enough that I feel something ought to be done about it if you want the game to be healthy.

 

I do not understand what you mean by Counterplay when you claim there little when it comes to a deaths judgement thief. There some few I meet in wvw (the vast majority are s/d and d/p when it comes to thief) and there plenty of counterplay. There certainly more counterplay then there is to a backstab or shadowshot. If you would play a Rifle DE thief you would learn this. It more effective to use the other rifle skills then DJ in very many cases simply because DJ can miss so often. For every DJ shot that hits there are many that do NOT hit. When you are on the receiving end you are not always seeing the ones that missed due to your counterplay. You only see what hits you and from that conclude there no counterplay.

[skeletonman.5348]

> @"Toron.4856" said:

> > @"gonso.4268" said:

> > So..... SB Warrior is dead right?

>

> Spellbreaker is dead after the patch. Core war is gonna be the better pick. Wonder if core war could make it into meta lol

>

> unless the devs change something about the nerfs and decide not to nerf every single relevant spellbreaker skill for pvp (weapon, burst and utility skills)

>

> which is not gonna happen.. so yeah. goodbye spellbreaker was nice having u in the meta for 2 seasons LUL

 

Well, between the "meta-classes" we have a more or less decent balance at the moment i would say. Now every class is receiving nerfs, which should maintain the balance between the classes. The problem i see though is that the classes are not nerfed equally much at all.

 

Spellbreaker seems to be nerfed the most out of all classes. As you pointed out basically every single SB skill is being nerfed. The Core war skills are more or less left untouched (besides defy pain and last stand). In the current state of the game Core war is performing quite well, which is why i believe Core war has a good chance of being viable next Meta. Core war will be stronger than spellbreaker for sure tho.

 

Now the bigger problem though: Mesmer and Thieves. Those 2 classes received very little nerfs compared to the other classes, while S/D damage even got buffed. (I honestly wonder why)

 

Unless there is some drastic changes, I can already see Mesmers and Thieves all over the place in the next season. Which is going to be an awful PvP experience.

 

But as the Devs already mentioned there is going to be some changes left out / added or made PvP / WvW exclusive. So yeah, lets see what they are gonna do.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Link.1049" said:

> It looks like the thief nerfs are going to hit harder than intended, while not making any of the skills more viable.

>

> Skills

> Heartseeker: Increased the power coefficients at all thresholds by 20% in PvP and WvW. The new values are as follows.

> Above 50%: 1.0 to 1.2

> Below 50%: 1.5 to 1.8

> Below 25%: 2.0 to 2.4

> **This won't change heartseekers usefulness... it's too expensive to cast as interrupts, closers, and other skills are all more useful**

>

> Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.8, 1.3 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.3 (-14% overall) in PvP and WvW- combined with other changes this is going to be a really negative change.

>

> Roll for Initiative: Increased the cooldown from 35 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW--> I'd not do this, your lowering damage on the autoattack, making them rely on other skills, but then effectively casting chill on them... not good.

>

> Infiltrator's Strike: Increased the power coefficient from .75 to .9 (+20%) in PvP and WvW- it'd be more effective if it actually did what it says it did... the immobilize pretty much never has an effect due to passives.

>

> Signet of Shadows: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW- Still useless... unless signet of shadows increases movement speed beyond what it currently does, there's really no use for it, it's too expensive to slot for pretty much zero return. Speed boosts are basically useless in pvp and wvw now since everything grants swiftness. Maybe completely rework this signet.

>

> Smoke Screen: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW- This isn't going to increase use, the casting time is too long for when it is needed.

>

> Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP and WvW- still to easy to interrupt and load up with conditions etc... for what it does compared to the other elite traits it's still very expensive.

>

> Hide in Shadows: Increased the base healing from 5240 to 6026 (+15%) in PvP and WvW- again, main issue with this one is casting time, that's why it's rarely used. If casting time were reduced you could take that 15% away and it'd be fine.

>

> Skelk Venom: Increased the venom heal per hit from 965 to 1206 (+25%) in PvP and WvW- Skelk venom is useless. Reducing the cooldown and increasing the healing even more would help. Or maybe have it remove conditions or convert conditions or SOMETHING, otherwise all the other heals are just, better.

>

> Traits

> Instant Reflexes: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only- too much given the amount of insane power creep lately...if you're gonna go this route, try 60 seconds instead

> Pain response: Increased the cooldown from 16 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only- eh..not a really useful trait to begin with so...sure...why not?

>

> Hard to Catch: Increased the cooldown from 45 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only- I'd leave this one be

>

> I also looked at Mesmer... it could use a BIG look through instead of the very mild one here. The current meta build of this is insane as its still a passive build, and generates MASSIVE amounts of damage while bunkering and being immune to damage the entire time.

>

> One thing I would adjust in ALL classes that have the ability to become invulnerable is that while invulnerable you cannot deal damage. Too many classes pop invulnerability and then do these massive power attacks, turning it into who hit who first wars, or who popped their invuln first wars.

>

>

 

A couple of points. I think Signet of shadows usable now in some builds that do not have swiftness access. The reason it seems useless is most builds will have this. Signet of shadows has a very good active if it used. I think the lower ICD will in fact help and see me use it in builds where I am not stacking swiftness. I feel the speed add helps to open builds that would otherwise not be used. Where I think a change needs to me made is in the Signets of power trait out of CS line. These are underwhelming.

 

HIS and Skelk as heals are in the same boat Malicious restoration was. Now the latter has gotten better indirectly via change to Malice as it now easier to ensure you get a condition cleanse or significance when used than it was prior where very often malice would drop to zero when a thief needed a heal/cleanse. The nature of the thief means when they get hit they need a heal quickly and can not wait 30 seconds even if that heal fatter. I agree a drop of 5 seconds to ICD on Skelk might be better.

 

HIS suffers in very many ways in that it a deception and in order to brings its ICD to a reasonable level one has to go SA and give up Shadows embrace to do so. The long cast time is another whammy against. It not required that these all be fixed but a slight change to one would help. So either as you suggest lower its cast time OR lower the ICD from its base of 30 to 25 OR separate SE from the lower deception cooldown skill in SA and I think this will see more use.

 

I prefer a rejig of the deception skill in SA traits where it can be acquired separate from SE as this would also help Smoke screen.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"messiah.1908" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > > 'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > > > > 'ey all. As many of you have pointed out, a fair number of the changes posted earlier are not going to have the impact we're looking for, or only impact one of the two competitive modes. So we're going to be reviewing a lot of the posted changes and will be making some of them into just PvP and others into just WvW. The changes will be aimed at the game mode that they most directly impact.

> > > >

> > > > Will there be a follow-up post at a later date with your revisions?

> > >

> > > Yep! I'm hoping we'll get a revision within the next week or so. Possibly early next week, given localization time.

> >

> > Oh my god that is wonderful :D

> >

> > I am beyond happy with the communication. It is refreshing and really, really making a difference with the attitude in the community. Thank you!

> > ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

> >

> > Aside from this, another suggestion I had would be to give Bountiful Disillusionment a 10 second cooldown on the stability and possibly the removal of Aegis from Chaos Storm.

> >

> > Not only that, but mesmers also have fairly easy access to permanent protection, as well as every other boon in the game. However, the permanent 2 stacks of stability with Bountiful Disillusionment coupled with the constant Aegis (that blocks the attacks that would strip it), make for a very powerful combination that is hard to stop.

>

> which build are you refering to? the bunker/support or the current meta power demolisher?

> you do know that nerf to the traits will result hurting the support build in all game mode (pve/pvp/wvw) while i think the problem is the the dmg .

> ask yourself what made this build meta only now?

> 1. condi was nerf

> 2. mirage appeared

> so you see the build was long ago nerfed but only now with the mirage got reemerge again. so the problem is within mirage trait line which got nerfed hard.

> so take scourge with curroption abilities or spellbreaker and mesmer will feel the pressure.

 

Bountiful Disillusionment provides a permanent 1 or 2 stacks of stability depending on how much boon duration the mesmer has. The constant Aegis and Permanent protection make it too strong against power builds.

 

Not to mention I don't think Anet had ranger in mind when designing Mirage, because the target breaks literally screw over our pet. A good Mirage can make a ranger's pet 100% useless.

 

Anyways, I've seen it work with a variety of amulets:

 

Harriers, marauders, demolisher, diviner, seeker, etc. etc.

[eoz.1834]

hi. do removal of downstate in wvw talked internally?

[padreadamo.3986]

****There a clear distinction here that needs to be made. Are Skill Splits enough or Are many skills in-need of a major rework/redesign? ** **

 

I would argue that what we really need are skills and core trait-lines to be reworked. In addition, how toughness/vitality affect defenses and how active utility skills should be changed to deal with the amount of damage that players are doing by pressing "1" button today. These things were never addressed in the last expansion and subsequently have compounded since PoF.

 

I'm so happy that the devs are communicating with us. This is truly a defining moment for PVP/WvW and the way forward. It just needs to be done right, with a clear plan and path.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Wichidi.9281" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > **Arenanet, please read:**

> >

> > I'll state my opinions mostly from an spvp point of view, while still taking in to mind how it effects wvw and pve. But first it is important to point out what the problems are that the intra-class dynamic faces at this point in time in spvp. This is not only my opinion, but also the majority opinion of players playing platinum + at least from what I understand:

> > * Mesmer builds are too strong. There is too much DPS pressure here for how much survivability and utility is present.

> > * Spellbreakers specifically, not Berserker or Core, are too strong. This is mainly due to the power and utility behind Full Counter.

> > * Druids specifically, not Soulbeast or Core, are too strong. This is 100% due to Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow.

> > * Firebrand and Scourge are still mandatory choices for 5 man play and generally increase the win rates of any team, even in ranked or unranked, the more of them you have in your team. I wouldn't say they are "over powered" but the utility and function they bring into the dynamic of conquest matches or even wvw squads, is just more heavily evolved than anything else in the game right now. This effect becomes exponentially screwed up the more Firebrands and Scourges that are present on the same team together. They completely break the idea of not having a holy trinity. Firebrand and Scourge is the holy trinity at this point. Other classes/builds do not compare to the importance of these two in competitive play, spvp or wvw.

> > * The above problems result in the ultimate problem which is, very little class/build diversity in competitive play. Other classes aren't so kitten that they are unplayable but none of them are able to compete in viability with Mesmer based specs/Spellbreaker/Druid/Firebrand/Scourge.

> >

> > How do I feel about the proposed changes? Well I think there are shortcuts and more simple ways to fix these problems that exist in spvp/wvw, without dabbling in so much change across the board on every character:

> > * _Mesmers_ - Tone down the damage. It doesn't need to be neutered but it really needs a cut in its damage. However this is achieved, is up to the balance team.

> > * _Spellbreakers_ - Full Counter needs nerfing. Nothing else needs to be touched! just Full Counter. However this is achieved, go for it balance team.

>

> +1 on this

>

> spellbreaker needs to be toned down in terms of counter. You dont need to done down the dmg on aa or increase the CD on dagger 2 leap. If u go with all the nerfs its gonna be as he said: Rip warrior.

>

> > @"Dark Knight.6294" said:

> > Rip warrior

>

> basically just nerfing everything into the ground sounds easy to do but pls dont make the same mistakes with spellbreaker as with rev and dont overnerf them.

>

> if u go with all those nerfs core war is going to be stronger than spellbreaker.

>

> And IF u do so, at least make sure to make berserker viable again. I did not see any changes to berserker in the suggestions so i highly doubt making Berserker viable in PvP again is one of the goals. (It could easily be made viable again by reverting the nerfs from May 16, 2017).

 

I can stand by nerfing auto attack, but not much of a nerf. Here is my reasoning:

The warrior's attack speed on a dagger. it's faster than a lot of other auto attacks, and a lot less aftercast delay after the attacks (including the third chain)

However, we also know that thief dagger has a very fast auto attack, so i think that should be nerfed a little more than warrior's due to the sheer speed. Gotta balance an attacks speed with its power and its desired role in combat scenarios. if sb is supposed to be bruiser, tone down damage to where it's not on par with a burster's damage, but as well not so darn low it's a bunker's damage (bunker and bruiser definitely different)

 

All in all I can agree with you, both of you.

[Ghos.1326]

I also want to point out a good "nerf" so to speak to scourge's sand savant. Maybe instead of lowering the cd AND increasing the size, simply increase the size of the said shades, however ELONGATE the cd of said shade charges, to not spam massive death bombs on the ground.

[Toron.4856]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"Wichidi.9281" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > **Arenanet, please read:**

> > >

> > > I'll state my opinions mostly from an spvp point of view, while still taking in to mind how it effects wvw and pve. But first it is important to point out what the problems are that the intra-class dynamic faces at this point in time in spvp. This is not only my opinion, but also the majority opinion of players playing platinum + at least from what I understand:

> > > * Mesmer builds are too strong. There is too much DPS pressure here for how much survivability and utility is present.

> > > * Spellbreakers specifically, not Berserker or Core, are too strong. This is mainly due to the power and utility behind Full Counter.

> > > * Druids specifically, not Soulbeast or Core, are too strong. This is 100% due to Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow.

> > > * Firebrand and Scourge are still mandatory choices for 5 man play and generally increase the win rates of any team, even in ranked or unranked, the more of them you have in your team. I wouldn't say they are "over powered" but the utility and function they bring into the dynamic of conquest matches or even wvw squads, is just more heavily evolved than anything else in the game right now. This effect becomes exponentially screwed up the more Firebrands and Scourges that are present on the same team together. They completely break the idea of not having a holy trinity. Firebrand and Scourge is the holy trinity at this point. Other classes/builds do not compare to the importance of these two in competitive play, spvp or wvw.

> > > * The above problems result in the ultimate problem which is, very little class/build diversity in competitive play. Other classes aren't so kitten that they are unplayable but none of them are able to compete in viability with Mesmer based specs/Spellbreaker/Druid/Firebrand/Scourge.

> > >

> > > How do I feel about the proposed changes? Well I think there are shortcuts and more simple ways to fix these problems that exist in spvp/wvw, without dabbling in so much change across the board on every character:

> > > * _Mesmers_ - Tone down the damage. It doesn't need to be neutered but it really needs a cut in its damage. However this is achieved, is up to the balance team.

> > > * _Spellbreakers_ - Full Counter needs nerfing. Nothing else needs to be touched! just Full Counter. However this is achieved, go for it balance team.

> >

> > +1 on this

> >

> > spellbreaker needs to be toned down in terms of counter. You dont need to done down the dmg on aa or increase the CD on dagger 2 leap. If u go with all the nerfs its gonna be as he said: Rip warrior.

> >

> > > @"Dark Knight.6294" said:

> > > Rip warrior

> >

> > basically just nerfing everything into the ground sounds easy to do but pls dont make the same mistakes with spellbreaker as with rev and dont overnerf them.

> >

> > if u go with all those nerfs core war is going to be stronger than spellbreaker.

> >

> > And IF u do so, at least make sure to make berserker viable again. I did not see any changes to berserker in the suggestions so i highly doubt making Berserker viable in PvP again is one of the goals. (It could easily be made viable again by reverting the nerfs from May 16, 2017).

>

> I can stand by nerfing auto attack, but not much of a nerf. Here is my reasoning:

> The warrior's attack speed on a dagger. it's faster than a lot of other auto attacks, and a lot less aftercast delay after the attacks (including the third chain)

> However, we also know that thief dagger has a very fast auto attack, so i think that should be nerfed a little more than warrior's due to the sheer speed. Gotta balance an attacks speed with its power and its desired role in combat scenarios. if sb is supposed to be bruiser, tone down damage to where it's not on par with a burster's damage, but as well not so darn low it's a bunker's damage (bunker and bruiser definitely different)

>

> All in all I can agree with you, both of you.

 

Well there is a huge difference between war and holo or rev burst damage wise.

[Wichidi.9281]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"Wichidi.9281" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > **Arenanet, please read:**

> > >

> > > I'll state my opinions mostly from an spvp point of view, while still taking in to mind how it effects wvw and pve. But first it is important to point out what the problems are that the intra-class dynamic faces at this point in time in spvp. This is not only my opinion, but also the majority opinion of players playing platinum + at least from what I understand:

> > > * Mesmer builds are too strong. There is too much DPS pressure here for how much survivability and utility is present.

> > > * Spellbreakers specifically, not Berserker or Core, are too strong. This is mainly due to the power and utility behind Full Counter.

> > > * Druids specifically, not Soulbeast or Core, are too strong. This is 100% due to Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow.

> > > * Firebrand and Scourge are still mandatory choices for 5 man play and generally increase the win rates of any team, even in ranked or unranked, the more of them you have in your team. I wouldn't say they are "over powered" but the utility and function they bring into the dynamic of conquest matches or even wvw squads, is just more heavily evolved than anything else in the game right now. This effect becomes exponentially screwed up the more Firebrands and Scourges that are present on the same team together. They completely break the idea of not having a holy trinity. Firebrand and Scourge is the holy trinity at this point. Other classes/builds do not compare to the importance of these two in competitive play, spvp or wvw.

> > > * The above problems result in the ultimate problem which is, very little class/build diversity in competitive play. Other classes aren't so kitten that they are unplayable but none of them are able to compete in viability with Mesmer based specs/Spellbreaker/Druid/Firebrand/Scourge.

> > >

> > > How do I feel about the proposed changes? Well I think there are shortcuts and more simple ways to fix these problems that exist in spvp/wvw, without dabbling in so much change across the board on every character:

> > > * _Mesmers_ - Tone down the damage. It doesn't need to be neutered but it really needs a cut in its damage. However this is achieved, is up to the balance team.

> > > * _Spellbreakers_ - Full Counter needs nerfing. Nothing else needs to be touched! just Full Counter. However this is achieved, go for it balance team.

> >

> > +1 on this

> >

> > spellbreaker needs to be toned down in terms of counter. You dont need to done down the dmg on aa or increase the CD on dagger 2 leap. If u go with all the nerfs its gonna be as he said: Rip warrior.

> >

> > > @"Dark Knight.6294" said:

> > > Rip warrior

> >

> > basically just nerfing everything into the ground sounds easy to do but pls dont make the same mistakes with spellbreaker as with rev and dont overnerf them.

> >

> > if u go with all those nerfs core war is going to be stronger than spellbreaker.

> >

> > And IF u do so, at least make sure to make berserker viable again. I did not see any changes to berserker in the suggestions so i highly doubt making Berserker viable in PvP again is one of the goals. (It could easily be made viable again by reverting the nerfs from May 16, 2017).

>

> I can stand by nerfing auto attack, but not much of a nerf. Here is my reasoning:

> The warrior's attack speed on a dagger. it's faster than a lot of other auto attacks, and a lot less aftercast delay after the attacks (including the third chain)

> However, we also know that thief dagger has a very fast auto attack, so i think that should be nerfed a little more than warrior's due to the sheer speed. Gotta balance an attacks speed with its power and its desired role in combat scenarios. if sb is supposed to be bruiser, tone down damage to where it's not on par with a burster's damage, but as well not so darn low it's a bunker's damage (bunker and bruiser definitely different)

>

> All in all I can agree with you, both of you.

 

Its just about the amount of nerfs. I dont think the dagger aa is the problem of SB but if they wanna nerf something so be it and nerf the aa but without nerfing every other skill. Nerfing every dagger skills same as the burst and utilities is just an overnerf and core gonna be meta again.

 

Tbh i dont see Berserker be viable again... anet somehow forgot about that class i believe. so yeah its gonna be core war for s11. Dont think they will make it into meta as core war but we shall see.

[Turk.5460]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Not to mention I don't think Anet had ranger in mind when designing Mirage, because the target breaks literally screw over our pet. A good Mirage can make a ranger's pet 100% useless.

 

 

Doesn't the pet automatically start attacking your new target when you change targets? If so, then there is no difference to a ranger having to figure out which one is the right target vs. any other profession needing to figure out the same...

[Bazsi.2734]

Im not necesseary good, but a pretty experienced PvP player, and play many classes/specs, deluding myself into thinking that I've got a firm grasp on the meta, here is my wall of text:

 

I did not read any comments before posting this, so if someone wrote exactly what I did... sue me! :smile:

I like the general aim of killing/toning down passives and increasing build diversity. Also keep in mind i focus mainly on pvp/tpvp with my comments.

 

**On warrior:**

- _Break Enchantments: Reduced the power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.5 (-50%). Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW_

I like this one, because the previous patch multiplied viable ways of boon application and significantly nerfed boon corruption, so all the traits/skills offering bonuses to hitting a foe without boons almost never proc. More boon removal (not necesseary corruption, just any way to cleanse the enemy of boons for 2-3 seconds) is welcome.

 

Nerfing dagger damage is not needed in my opinion, because greatsword is what is used to actually kill things, dagger/shield is just for harrassing and defense, the pressure from dagger was never really a problem(The fullcounter nerf is welcome though).

Shifting sword towards more of a hybrid with higher power coefficients: I don't think this is enough to make a hybrid build viable with sword, so meh. Not bad, not good, just a change. Dont have any strong opinions on the rest of the changes, gotta see how the meta turns out if they get implemented.

 

**On revenant:**

- _Vengeful Hammers: Reduced the upkeep cost from 7 to 6 in PvP and WvW_

I dont like this one, I'd say keep it at 7 and give it a slight damage increase instead, changeing the upkeep of a skill is almost changing its funcionality. If more changes like this are implemented, builds can feel really different based on the gamemode on the long run.

- _Banish Enchantments: Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW_

This is good, more boonremoval to the people. (also i dont get why the format broke here, im a noob to this text editor)

 

**On guardian:**

I like the proposed changes. Basicly all of them. Next!

 

**On thief:**

- _Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.85, 1.1 to 0.6, 0.65, 1.1 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW_

- _Heartseeker: Increased the power coefficients at all thresholds by 20% in PvP and WvW_

- _Shadow Shot: Increased the initiative cost from 4 to 5 in PvP and WvW. Increased the power coefficient from 1.325 to 1.8 (+36%) in PvP and WvW_

- _Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP and WvW_

- _Hide in Shadows: Increased the base healing from 5240 to 6026 (+15%) in PvP and WvW_

So now we have problems. Could we please not do any of these? Thief currently (with most melee weaponsets) is about looking for windows of opportunity or straight up forcing windows to be able to autoattack. I really like that, because you must have a pretty good understanding of whats happening around you to be able to reliably predict if you can autoattack or not(you're more vulnerable without spamming evades and/or blinds). Any update that switches towards dealing damage by spending initiative (autoattack nerf+hearthseeker buff) wont be to my liking.

Dagger Storm in pvp is a joke, only trolls use it(or lower ranked people who dont yet understand what works and what doesnt), and its bad for this gamemode by design, so I dont see the need to buff it. Hide in Shadows in only used by shadow arts builds, where you already have passive regen in stealth, the buff isnt needed.

 

- _Pulmonary Impact: Reduced the power coefficient from 2.8 to 2.0 (-29%) in PvP and WvW_

- _Instant Reflexes: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only_

I like these changes though, and neutral to the rest.

 

**On Ranger:**

I like the nerfs to druids. In pvp, playing as or against a druid it incredibly boring yet frustrating at the same time. The ability to force any non-bunker off a point (you either leave or you die, their damage is more than your sustain) in an 1v1, yet also being able to heal/powerrez through the cleave damage in teamfights is too much. If this results in druids not ruining the fun of pvp, im all for it!

 

**On Engineer:**

- _Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: The stability portion of this trait will now be applied only upon successful hits of Corona Burst_

I agree with the other nerfs to holo-mode, but this one is too harsh. This would basicly take away the holosmiths main tool to deal with the random CC that gets thrown around in every teamfight(the skill itself can get interrupted, so likely no stability if you run into a teamfight to make sure it hits someone). Also in a side-point fight: dodgeing this hard hitting skill would also grant me the ability to freely CC the holosmith, thats too much advantage just for knowing when to dodge. Please reconsider.

 

**On Elementalis:**

Im neutral to all the changes. I don't think they will change much of anything.

 

**On Mesmer:**

- _Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stun_

This is a badly needed nerf to the mirage dodge-spam. Some mirage builds can constantly keep blocking/mirage cloacking/stealthing for like 15-20 seconds, while blasting your face with conditions at an incredible rate. I'd like them to have some downtime on those defenses so a flawlessly played mirage is not godmode. This is a good step towards that.

 

**On Necromancer:**

Im guessing the nerfs to scourge are because of WvW... because in PvP playing scourge is suboptimal already. I mean im not going to cry to see that spec get utterly destroyed, but if your goal is to make everything viable, this is overdoing it. Im playing a lot of rifle deadeye in the top 250(EU), every time the enemy has a scourge its basicly a free win. I delete the scourge right at the start in 3 seconds, and we dont let go of the momentum from there.

 

What i'd like to see on scourge(i know this might even requires a rework, this is just a suggestion not a demand) **compared to PoF release:**

- Significantly less condition pressure by default (with the nerfs we are almost there)

- More condition pressure through boon conversion, if you play a boonless build, you're stronger vs scourge

- More support (its about to get nerfed): in the form of condi to boon conversions and barriers on allies, blinds/weakness spam on enemy (fits the desert theme)

Scourge was supposed to be a condi-support spec, so lets make it one!

 

That would be all of it. The general direction is good already, hope you'll consider some of the dos and don'ts i suggested!

 

[Shadowcat.2680]

The problem with mirage's excessive survivability is actually not Elusive Mind. It's the Mirage Cloak ability itself. Mirage is the only profession able to evade while stunned or immobilized, breaking one of the core mechanics of GW2's competitive play: stunning or immobilizing something should be rewarding for the attacking player and good for setting up a burst unless their target breaks the stun/clears the immobilize. Mirage doesn't need Elusive Mind to break this core mechanic as the evade of Mirage Cloak will outlast most stuns, so mirage needs only to dodge when stunned, regardless of whether or not Elusive Mind is traited, to negate the incoming burst.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

 

> **On Engineer:**

> - _Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: The stability portion of this trait will now be applied only upon successful hits of Corona Burst_

> I agree with the other nerfs to holo-mode, but this one is too harsh. This would basicly take away the holosmiths main tool to deal with the random CC that gets thrown around in every teamfight(the skill itself can get interrupted, so likely no stability if you run into a teamfight to make sure it hits someone). Also in a side-point fight: dodgeing this hard hitting skill would also grant me the ability to freely CC the holosmith, thats too much advantage just for knowing when to dodge. Please reconsider.

 

No. Not at all. This is not too harsh. I main engineer, and I am no pro either, but I consider myself decently good. You have to also consider the fact that, they can chase you down in a matter of seconds, especially with quickness uptime. How, you might ask? Two words: Holo Leap.

So lets imagine this scenario. Corona Burst stays as it is now. So, you run into a matchup as a warrior with a holosmith. You're trying to defend your node long enough for your team to get to you (considering you don't have a thief). So, you're fighting him, and he is wearing you down and prepares for his big burst. He pops Corona Burst, and you decide, eh no big deal just run away from him, stay away. NOPE. He pops elix U, and just chases the living poo out of you until he gets to you and destroys you. And, you can't cc him. remember corona burst proc? It does it twice. Each lasting for 4 seconds or more. CB is on a 6 second cd. by the time he has his next CB up, he still has a stack of stab. Now he can have 3 stacks instead of 2 stacks uptime the next time he uses CB, so on and so forth. "eh but he will be kicked out of holo form soon" kk, no issue. He just only has elix S, along with toolbelt stealth, and he still has an unblockable cc to use on you when your own anti cc measures run low. He can also still dodge, venting heat, so guess what? here is holo form again. now the cycle continues, and you can't run away any longer.

CB nerf is needed man, because now it opens up so much counterplay to an engineer. now it finally gives engineer second thought as to when he should go balls to the wall in your face, or hang tight, possibly even disengage the fight altogether. Because as it is now, he doesn't need to think about the consequences, with all of the defensive measures he has vs your own, and anti cc.

 

[coro.3176]

I think the damage nerfs on Holo are a bit heavy-handed. I like the stab-on-hit idea for the eclipse trait, and I am 100% behind nerfing/removing those frustrating passives but also nerfing the damage by 20-40% is too much.

 

Holo is a glass cannon spec, but it's pretty defenseless compared to other bursty glass specs (Mesmer/Thief/etc). If those classes miss their burst, they'll evade/blink/shadowstep out. Holo is stuck in the middle of the fight. Yes, you can try to Rocket Boots or Acid Bomb out, but these are not evades, and you'll usually die trying to get away as you take damage while travelling.

 

Holo NEEDS its damage to be high enough to justify being locked into forge-mode. I'm all for making it more difficult to land skills, get stab, etc, but please don't take the Cannon out of Glass Cannon.

[Wichidi.9281]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> I think the damage nerfs on Holo are a bit heavy-handed. I like the stab-on-hit idea for the eclipse trait, and I am 100% behind nerfing/removing those frustrating passives but also nerfing the damage by 20-40% is too much.

>

> Holo is a glass cannon spec, but it's pretty defenseless compared to other bursty glass specs (Mesmer/Thief/etc). If those classes miss their burst, they'll evade/blink/shadowstep out. Holo is stuck in the middle of the fight. Yes, you can try to Rocket Boots or Acid Bomb out, but these are not evades, and you'll usually die trying to get away as you take damage while travelling.

>

> Holo NEEDS its damage to be high enough to justify being locked into forge-mode. I'm all for making it more difficult to land skills, get stab, etc, but please don't take the Cannon out of Glass Cannon.

 

keep in mind that ONLY the first auto hit is nerfed. the aa chain consists of 3 skills. the second and third hit are untouched.

 

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > Not to mention I don't think Anet had ranger in mind when designing Mirage, because the target breaks literally screw over our pet. A good Mirage can make a ranger's pet 100% useless.

>

>

> Doesn't the pet automatically start attacking your new target when you change targets? If so, then there is no difference to a ranger having to figure out which one is the right target vs. any other profession needing to figure out the same...

 

No that's only if your pet is set to Guard. That's the issue though. Every time the target breaks, the pet runs back to the ranger. Then if you target the mesmer again, the pet has to run back to the mesmer. Then the target breaks and the pet runs back.

 

The pet just runs laps the entire fight and doesn't actually do anything against a mesmer who uses his target breaks correctly.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > Not to mention I don't think Anet had ranger in mind when designing Mirage, because the target breaks literally screw over our pet. A good Mirage can make a ranger's pet 100% useless.

> >

> >

> > Doesn't the pet automatically start attacking your new target when you change targets? If so, then there is no difference to a ranger having to figure out which one is the right target vs. any other profession needing to figure out the same...

>

> No that's only if your pet is set to Guard. That's the issue though. Every time the target breaks, the pet runs back to the ranger. Then if you target the mesmer again, the pet has to run back to the mesmer. Then the target breaks and the pet runs back.

>

> The pet just runs laps the entire fight and doesn't actually do anything against a mesmer who uses his target breaks correctly.

 

isn't that kind of the point...?

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > Not to mention I don't think Anet had ranger in mind when designing Mirage, because the target breaks literally screw over our pet. A good Mirage can make a ranger's pet 100% useless.

> > >

> > >

> > > Doesn't the pet automatically start attacking your new target when you change targets? If so, then there is no difference to a ranger having to figure out which one is the right target vs. any other profession needing to figure out the same...

> >

> > No that's only if your pet is set to Guard. That's the issue though. Every time the target breaks, the pet runs back to the ranger. Then if you target the mesmer again, the pet has to run back to the mesmer. Then the target breaks and the pet runs back.

> >

> > The pet just runs laps the entire fight and doesn't actually do anything against a mesmer who uses his target breaks correctly.

>

> isn't that kind of the point...?

 

To render a ranger's class mechanic 100% useless? Probably not intentionally.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> To render a ranger's class mechanic 100% useless? Probably not intentionally.

But this happens to all classes. when you dodge them. An Engineer's toolbelt is rendered useless when it's avoided altogether. So why shouldn't Ranger be subject to the same treatment...