Deathok.2914 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Don’t forget that it also is an evade I agree that it does too many things atleast 1 thing should be removed and it would be finde already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Deathok.2914" said: > Don’t forget that it also is an evade > I agree that it does too many things atleast 1 thing should be removed and it would be finde already It's not an evade. Flanking Strike is the evade. Know what you're talking about before calling for nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 We can't give it a recharge as that would go against the very core design of thief weapons. And we can't increase the initiative cost because it would make it nearly useless as Flanking Strike already has 4 cost. And we can't move cost from Flanking Strike to Larcenous Strike as that would make an evade too cheap. But worry not! Nothing the new skill ammo system can't fix. Set Max Ammo Count for Flanking Strike to something like 3-4, Count Recharge to 8-10s. Ding, no more continuous spam, still usable for all other scenarios. Best tool ever. The only thing that can keep thief weapon skills without skill recharges while also halting boring endless repetitive skill spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deShinigami.2387 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. Higher block time? LOL * weapons that grant aegis, utilities that grant aegis, f-skills that grant aegis, aegis refreshed on elite, and refresh when traited granted after blocking.... Little Sustain? LOL x 2 * all that stuff i mentioned, plus the heals, the heals off aegis if traited, big damage, blind, they do have some dodges, they can go invlun, if they have a bow, vigor access Don't try to make guardian out to be some punching bag. Core guardians that go power can have 20k health and still do massive crit damage thanks to traits and retal. FB was def in the top tiers last season I am glad that thief is an anti bunker, will be even more so after the split hopefully Back in the day DH was a pita, maybe less so now 4/80 vs 6/105 0.05 vs 0.057~ also doesn't meditation heal if traited, also one applied on a heal if traited? **on a side note larcenous strike only hits 1 target, but this is fine** [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > I am glad that thief is an anti bunker, will be even more so after the split hopefully Thief is anti every thing, which is the problem. It would be understandable if a build is designed to counter one thing. That is how the game should be. But thief builds counter nearly every thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxsdgxX.8109 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > I am glad that thief is an anti bunker, will be even more so after the split hopefully > > Thief is anti every thing, which is the problem. It would be understandable if a build is designed to counter one thing. That is how the game should be. But thief builds counter nearly every thing. > > Precisely, pretty much the first step to have a "viable" build is to ensure that it doesn't get deleted by a thief in the first 3 secs of a fight. In other words thieves usually dictate what is viable and what isn't, has been like that for years and it's incredibly unhealthy for the game. Both mesmer and thief are extremely unhealthy for this game's build diversity/PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 God, what guild is it that decided they were going to whine about thief every single day on the forums once mid february started? Rifle, pistols, now its SD they're whining about. And all these people clearly don't know how the class works. This is hilarious. You get one choice of: Unblockable + big damage OR Unblockable + boon steal You DO NOT get all three on the same strike. Stop with the misinformation if you're going to whinge about thief. Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ Go ahead, tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > Go ahead, tell me. Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of the s/d build), just calling how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > > > Go ahead, tell me. > > Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. > > Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of s/d build) just calling how I see it. So you're saying thief has more damage and mobility than mesmer? K, I think I know where the problem is. Start by removing the liquor sitting next to your PC, you're drunk. I mean, we got one guy using a power necro complaining because he lost to a PP deadeye. PISTOLS DEADEYE he is whining about on a thread on these forums. Then we got a guy whining about rifle deadeye. WHINING ABOUT RIFLE? WHY? Then we got people whining about SD because it gets "damage + boon steal + unblockable", when it doesn't actually do that. Look people, there are some things thief is good at, but it's best at nothing, and I can't remember a time where anyone was happy to have more than one thief on their PVP team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > > > > > Go ahead, tell me. > > > > Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. > > > > Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of s/d build) just calling how I see it. > > So you're saying thief has more damage and mobility than mesmer? K, I think I know where the problem is. Mobility, I'd say thief has the advantage over sword Mirage because of z-axis porting using SB 5 and other ports. You can also chain shadowstep, sword 2, and steal to go from mid to side node in an instant, finish the +1 and take your sword 2 and shadow return to go back to mid in another instant. Mesmer has more burst damage, but thief soft counters Mesmer anyway and Mesmer's GS2 F1 burst is much easier to predict than steal or even infiltrator strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > > > > > Go ahead, tell me. > > > > Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. > > > > Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of s/d build) just calling how I see it. > > So you're saying thief has more damage and mobility than mesmer? K, I think I know where the problem is. Start by removing the liquor sitting next to your PC, you're drunk. > > I mean, we got one guy using a power necro complaining because he lost to a PP deadeye. PISTOLS DEADEYE he is whining about on a thread on these forums. > Then we got a guy whining about rifle deadeye. WHINING ABOUT RIFLE? WHY? > Then we got people whining about SD because it gets "damage + boon steal + unblockable", when it doesn't actually do that. > > Look people, there are some things thief is good at, but it's best at nothing, and I can't remember a time where anyone was happy to have more than one thief on their PVP team. Refreshed and came back to this lol. Idk wtf you're mad about I am not calling for any nerfs. You can't equate people complaining about rifle and Unload to valid discussion about a meta thief build that is proven to work in the high level tiers. I'm a thief main bro, you need to be honest with yourself and admit thief's strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. You dont undestand, he is talking about the Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honour/Virtues/DragonHunter build, with Shouts, Meditations and Concecrations, lots of blinds, blocks, heals and massive damage! Oh and dont forget to bring those Spirit Weapons my friend, thats the most OP aspect of this build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > > > > > > > Go ahead, tell me. > > > > > > Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. > > > > > > Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of s/d build) just calling how I see it. > > > > So you're saying thief has more damage and mobility than mesmer? K, I think I know where the problem is. Start by removing the liquor sitting next to your PC, you're drunk. > > > > I mean, we got one guy using a power necro complaining because he lost to a PP deadeye. PISTOLS DEADEYE he is whining about on a thread on these forums. > > Then we got a guy whining about rifle deadeye. WHINING ABOUT RIFLE? WHY? > > Then we got people whining about SD because it gets "damage + boon steal + unblockable", when it doesn't actually do that. > > > > Look people, there are some things thief is good at, but it's best at nothing, and I can't remember a time where anyone was happy to have more than one thief on their PVP team. > > Refreshed and came back to this lol. Idk kitten you're mad about I am not calling for any nerfs. You can't equate people complaining about rifle and Unload to valid discussion about a meta thief build that is proven to work in the high level tiers. I'm a thief main bro, you need to be honest with yourself and admit thief's strengths. That's the thing though man. I don't mind admitting thief's strengths, but look what everyone is whining about on these forums every day - fucking rifle deadeye? pistols deadeye? SD3? At least SD3 is kind of a good ability and I kind of get it, but even when they're whining about that "oh, it is unblockable plus big damage plus boon steal" and that's not even how it works. And the spec was only even exists in pvp because the bunker/scourge meta killed the one good thing thief did, which was decap and +1. Now we finally did that and ppl are whining about SD3 when you can avoid it BY WALKING SIDEWAYS. Fucking hell man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warherox.7943 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"warherox.7943" said: > Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k It's kind of a lie to say that larcenous strike is spammable tho. They have to actually connect with both skills twice, which eats 12 initiative even if they hit, and takes several seconds of really obvious attacking by skills that are avoided BY WALKING SIDEWAYS. No, this skill is fine. If you want to nerf something about SD thief this is not it. I will not agree. It is 100% your own fault for standing there eating attacks for 4 seconds in a row without using anything to avoid it. Shatter can do this much damage in a single attack and is much less obviously telegraphed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubi.4136 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"warherox.7943" said: > Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k This is what I have been saying for years. They will never get balance right for the rest of the game until they get rid of initiative and give thief skills proper cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > > > > > > > > > Go ahead, tell me. > > > > > > > > Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. > > > > > > > > Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of s/d build) just calling how I see it. > > > > > > So you're saying thief has more damage and mobility than mesmer? K, I think I know where the problem is. Start by removing the liquor sitting next to your PC, you're drunk. > > > > > > I mean, we got one guy using a power necro complaining because he lost to a PP deadeye. PISTOLS DEADEYE he is whining about on a thread on these forums. > > > Then we got a guy whining about rifle deadeye. WHINING ABOUT RIFLE? WHY? > > > Then we got people whining about SD because it gets "damage + boon steal + unblockable", when it doesn't actually do that. > > > > > > Look people, there are some things thief is good at, but it's best at nothing, and I can't remember a time where anyone was happy to have more than one thief on their PVP team. > > > > Refreshed and came back to this lol. Idk kitten you're mad about I am not calling for any nerfs. You can't equate people complaining about rifle and Unload to valid discussion about a meta thief build that is proven to work in the high level tiers. I'm a thief main bro, you need to be honest with yourself and admit thief's strengths. > > That's the thing though man. I don't mind admitting thief's strengths, but look what everyone is whining about on these forums every day - kitten rifle deadeye? pistols deadeye? SD3? > > At least SD3 is kind of a good ability and I kind of get it, but even when they're whining about that "oh, it is unblockable plus big damage plus boon steal" and that's not even how it works. And the spec was only even exists in pvp because the bunker/scourge meta killed the one good thing thief did, which was decap and +1. Now we finally did that and ppl are whining about SD3 when you can avoid it BY WALKING SIDEWAYS. kitten hell man. Larcenous Strike is over-performing. What would bring it in line is removing the bonus damage from enemies without boons. I *love* playing as S/D, but even I can see that the damage is ridiculous from an ability that is not difficult to land in most situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > > > > > > > > > > > Go ahead, tell me. > > > > > > > > > > Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. > > > > > > > > > > Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of s/d build) just calling how I see it. > > > > > > > > So you're saying thief has more damage and mobility than mesmer? K, I think I know where the problem is. Start by removing the liquor sitting next to your PC, you're drunk. > > > > > > > > I mean, we got one guy using a power necro complaining because he lost to a PP deadeye. PISTOLS DEADEYE he is whining about on a thread on these forums. > > > > Then we got a guy whining about rifle deadeye. WHINING ABOUT RIFLE? WHY? > > > > Then we got people whining about SD because it gets "damage + boon steal + unblockable", when it doesn't actually do that. > > > > > > > > Look people, there are some things thief is good at, but it's best at nothing, and I can't remember a time where anyone was happy to have more than one thief on their PVP team. > > > > > > Refreshed and came back to this lol. Idk kitten you're mad about I am not calling for any nerfs. You can't equate people complaining about rifle and Unload to valid discussion about a meta thief build that is proven to work in the high level tiers. I'm a thief main bro, you need to be honest with yourself and admit thief's strengths. > > > > That's the thing though man. I don't mind admitting thief's strengths, but look what everyone is whining about on these forums every day - kitten rifle deadeye? pistols deadeye? SD3? > > > > At least SD3 is kind of a good ability and I kind of get it, but even when they're whining about that "oh, it is unblockable plus big damage plus boon steal" and that's not even how it works. And the spec was only even exists in pvp because the bunker/scourge meta killed the one good thing thief did, which was decap and +1. Now we finally did that and ppl are whining about SD3 when you can avoid it BY WALKING SIDEWAYS. kitten hell man. > > Larcenous Strike is over-performing. What would bring it in line is removing the bonus damage from enemies without boons. I *love* playing as S/D, but even I can see that the damage is ridiculous from an ability that is not difficult to land in most situations. I think nerfing it to 10% is a fair compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. > > You dont undestand, he is talking about the Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honour/Virtues/DragonHunter build, with Shouts, Meditations and Concecrations, lots of blinds, blocks, heals and massive damage! Oh and dont forget to bring those Spirit Weapons my friend, thats the most OP aspect of this build. Well that's all broken up into at least 4 widely known viable builds. I forgot to ask, are we talking from a wvw perspective or conquest? How many times do non firebrand players get ask to swap if double guard? If thief is this amazing counter to everything, why not just have everyone swap to thief after the queue pops? Why worry about a scrouge-firebrand combo, shoot son we got two thieves...smoke em. I know some will internet argue just to argue, but how many people believe "poor baby guard, he's so weak and helpless against teef"? Probably just player bad at guardian. I am not saying it can't be done, but normally I don't lose to a thief in conquest unless he has help. Most players I have observed that are proficient at guardian don't either. But I'll repeat, I am not saying it can not be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deShinigami.2387 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. > > Higher block time? LOL > * weapons that grant aegis, utilities that grant aegis, f-skills that grant aegis, aegis refreshed on elite, and refresh when traited granted after blocking.... > > Little Sustain? LOL x 2 > * all that stuff i mentioned, plus the heals, the heals off aegis if traited, big damage, blind, they do have some dodges, they can go invlun, if they have a bow, vigor access > > Don't try to make guardian out to be some punching bag. > > Core guardians that go power can have 20k health and still do massive crit damage thanks to traits and retal. > FB was def in the top tiers last season > > I am glad that thief is an anti bunker, will be even more so after the split hopefully > > Back in the day DH was a pita, maybe less so now > > 4/80 vs 6/105 0.05 vs 0.057~ > > also doesn't meditation heal if traited, also one applied on a heal if traited? > > **on a side note larcenous strike only hits 1 target, but this is fine** > > [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter") Why do you try to draw attention away from your OP? First of all, Healing off of Aegis is in the Honor traitline. This means you give up any form off offense on a DH build. This also means you can't run Radiance for the crit on core hammer. (considering Virtues and Valor are must-have traitlines for DPS guard). Don't bring Firebrand into the conversation, I'm only talking about dps specs. As stated in my OP. Weapons that grants Aegis; Shield #4. This means you're dropping focus. Hence the Blind "spam" goes away. The only vigor access is from shouts, which no one ever runs because they are helltrash and meditations are needed in order to survive and deal damage, and from the bow 4 symbol. (Also from boon conversion on Contemplation of Purity, but that's situational.) Yes. Meditations does heal for 1916 hp when traited. This brings the healing amount up to a whopping 3500 heal on a 20 second cooldown. The traits you are talking about are literally in 6 different traitlines. The skills you are talking about are on 3 different off-hands (being Shield, Focus and Longbow.) Get your facts straight before trying to spread false information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deShinigami.2387 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > > > > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > > > > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > > > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > > > > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > > > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > > > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > > > > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > > > > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. > > > > You dont undestand, he is talking about the Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honour/Virtues/DragonHunter build, with Shouts, Meditations and Concecrations, lots of blinds, blocks, heals and massive damage! Oh and dont forget to bring those Spirit Weapons my friend, thats the most OP aspect of this build. > > Well that's all broken up into at least 4 widely known viable builds. > > I forgot to ask, are we talking from a wvw perspective or conquest? > > How many times do non firebrand players get ask to swap if double guard? > > If thief is this amazing counter to everything, why not just have everyone swap to thief after the queue pops? > > Why worry about a scrouge-firebrand combo, shoot son we got two thieves...smoke em. > > I know some will internet argue just to argue, but how many people believe "poor baby guard, he's so weak and helpless against teef"? Probably just player bad at guardian. > > I am not saying it can't be done, but normally I don't lose to a thief in conquest unless he has help. Most players I have observed that are proficient at guardian don't either. > > But I'll repeat, I am not saying it can not be done. > You still seem confused. I'm not talking about Firebrand, and you can't compare Firebrand to a core guardian because the builds simply doesn't play remotely the same. A Firebrand is kinda like a Support Tempest, while Core Guardian is like a Fresh Air Weaver. If the two builds were viable, you would not complain about having the two in the same team. Same goes for healing reaper and Scourge. Gunflame Warrior and Spellbreaker. Chrono bunker and Power Shatter ... You get my point. I'm not stating that **Firebrand isn't OP** because it **CLEARLY IS** and should never have been so highly tuned to begin with. But don't come in here telling me that Core Guardians and DH's have 4 viable different builds with "superior sustain". Edit: We are obviously talking a conquest perspective considering we are on the PvP forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Inoki.6048" said: > All these complaints about thieves, man... yet Shatter Mesmers are 100x more toxic. Isn't Thief a direct counter to shatter Mesmer? I don't lose to Mesmers on my Thief when I play my D/D + P/P build and I get rekt by any Thief on my Mes that isn't running a Rifle DE spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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