Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > > > > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > > > > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > > > > > > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > > > > > > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > > > > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > > > > > > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > > > > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > > > > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > > > > > > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > > > > > > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. > > > > > > You dont undestand, he is talking about the Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honour/Virtues/DragonHunter build, with Shouts, Meditations and Concecrations, lots of blinds, blocks, heals and massive damage! Oh and dont forget to bring those Spirit Weapons my friend, thats the most OP aspect of this build. > > > > Well that's all broken up into at least 4 widely known viable builds. > > > > I forgot to ask, are we talking from a wvw perspective or conquest? > > > > How many times do non firebrand players get ask to swap if double guard? > > > > If thief is this amazing counter to everything, why not just have everyone swap to thief after the queue pops? > > > > Why worry about a scrouge-firebrand combo, shoot son we got two thieves...smoke em. > > > > I know some will internet argue just to argue, but how many people believe "poor baby guard, he's so weak and helpless against teef"? Probably just player bad at guardian. > > > > I am not saying it can't be done, but normally I don't lose to a thief in conquest unless he has help. Most players I have observed that are proficient at guardian don't either. > > > > But I'll repeat, I am not saying it can not be done. > > > > You still seem confused. I'm not talking about Firebrand, and you can't compare Firebrand to a core guardian because the builds simply doesn't play remotely the same. A Firebrand is kinda like a Support Tempest, while Core Guardian is like a Fresh Air Weaver. If the two builds were viable, you would not complain about having the two in the same team. Same goes for healing reaper and Scourge. Gunflame Warrior and Spellbreaker. Chrono bunker and Power Shatter ... You get my point. > > I'm not stating that **Firebrand isn't OP** because it **CLEARLY IS** and should never have been so highly tuned to begin with. But don't come in here telling me that Core Guardians and DH's have 4 viable different builds with "superior sustain". > > Edit: We are obviously talking a conquest perspective considering we are on the PvP forums. What are you talking about? Confused? You are confused. Do people generally want two support firebrands on their team? I never thought so, and so I said unless they are both FB, dual guardians generally are not asked to swap in a match. I also claimed that the behavior for two thieves is the opposite. Also my earlier posts, I am pretty sure it was clear that I mean multiple builds. You claimed that thief has better sustain than guardian. On any of the 4 well known viable builds....guardian has more sustain. My OP? I think sword 3 combo is fine, it helps thieves be bunker busters. I want that in the game. Also people have mentioned wvw in these forums before when describing problems against other classes....so no the perspective is not "obvious". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > > > > > Now, finish the sentence: Thief is best at __________ > > > > > > > > > > > > Go ahead, tell me. > > > > > > > > > > Single target pressure, both burst and sustained with s/d. Mobility. > > > > > > > > > > Not saying it shouldn't be that way/needs a nerf (am a big fan of s/d build) just calling how I see it. > > > > > > > > So you're saying thief has more damage and mobility than mesmer? K, I think I know where the problem is. Start by removing the liquor sitting next to your PC, you're drunk. > > > > > > > > I mean, we got one guy using a power necro complaining because he lost to a PP deadeye. PISTOLS DEADEYE he is whining about on a thread on these forums. > > > > Then we got a guy whining about rifle deadeye. WHINING ABOUT RIFLE? WHY? > > > > Then we got people whining about SD because it gets "damage + boon steal + unblockable", when it doesn't actually do that. > > > > > > > > Look people, there are some things thief is good at, but it's best at nothing, and I can't remember a time where anyone was happy to have more than one thief on their PVP team. > > > > > > Refreshed and came back to this lol. Idk kitten you're mad about I am not calling for any nerfs. You can't equate people complaining about rifle and Unload to valid discussion about a meta thief build that is proven to work in the high level tiers. I'm a thief main bro, you need to be honest with yourself and admit thief's strengths. > > > > That's the thing though man. I don't mind admitting thief's strengths, but look what everyone is whining about on these forums every day - kitten rifle deadeye? pistols deadeye? SD3? > > > > At least SD3 is kind of a good ability and I kind of get it, but even when they're whining about that "oh, it is unblockable plus big damage plus boon steal" and that's not even how it works. And the spec was only even exists in pvp because the bunker/scourge meta killed the one good thing thief did, which was decap and +1. Now we finally did that and ppl are whining about SD3 when you can avoid it BY WALKING SIDEWAYS. kitten hell man. > > Larcenous Strike is over-performing. What would bring it in line is removing the bonus damage from enemies without boons. I *love* playing as S/D, but even I can see that the damage is ridiculous from an ability that is not difficult to land in most situations. What would bring it in line is if you tried WALKING TO THE SIDE Not dodging.... WALKING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"XxsdgxX.8109" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > I am glad that thief is an anti bunker, will be even more so after the split hopefully > > > > Thief is anti every thing, which is the problem. It would be understandable if a build is designed to counter one thing. That is how the game should be. But thief builds counter nearly every thing. > > > > > > Precisely, pretty much the first step to have a "viable" build is to ensure that it doesn't get deleted by a thief in the first 3 secs of a fight. > In other words thieves usually dictate what is viable and what isn't, has been like that for years and it's incredibly unhealthy for the game. > Both mesmer and thief are extremely unhealthy for this game's build diversity/PvP. Pretty sure the first step in not getting deleted by a thief in the first 3 seconds of a fight is to L2P Please stop confusing dying on a guardian to a thief in 3 seconds a build issue instead of what it really is. A L2P issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > > > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > > > > > > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > > > > > > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > > > > > > > > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > > > > > > > > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > > > > > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > > > > > > > > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > > > > > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > > > > > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. > > > > > > > > You dont undestand, he is talking about the Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honour/Virtues/DragonHunter build, with Shouts, Meditations and Concecrations, lots of blinds, blocks, heals and massive damage! Oh and dont forget to bring those Spirit Weapons my friend, thats the most OP aspect of this build. > > > > > > Well that's all broken up into at least 4 widely known viable builds. > > > > > > I forgot to ask, are we talking from a wvw perspective or conquest? > > > > > > How many times do non firebrand players get ask to swap if double guard? > > > > > > If thief is this amazing counter to everything, why not just have everyone swap to thief after the queue pops? > > > > > > Why worry about a scrouge-firebrand combo, shoot son we got two thieves...smoke em. > > > > > > I know some will internet argue just to argue, but how many people believe "poor baby guard, he's so weak and helpless against teef"? Probably just player bad at guardian. > > > > > > I am not saying it can't be done, but normally I don't lose to a thief in conquest unless he has help. Most players I have observed that are proficient at guardian don't either. > > > > > > But I'll repeat, I am not saying it can not be done. > > > > > > > You still seem confused. I'm not talking about Firebrand, and you can't compare Firebrand to a core guardian because the builds simply doesn't play remotely the same. A Firebrand is kinda like a Support Tempest, while Core Guardian is like a Fresh Air Weaver. If the two builds were viable, you would not complain about having the two in the same team. Same goes for healing reaper and Scourge. Gunflame Warrior and Spellbreaker. Chrono bunker and Power Shatter ... You get my point. > > > > I'm not stating that **Firebrand isn't OP** because it **CLEARLY IS** and should never have been so highly tuned to begin with. But don't come in here telling me that Core Guardians and DH's have 4 viable different builds with "superior sustain". > > > > Edit: We are obviously talking a conquest perspective considering we are on the PvP forums. > > What are you talking about? Confused? > > You are confused. > > Do people generally want two support firebrands on their team? I never thought so, and so I said unless they are both FB, dual guardians generally are not asked to swap in a match. I also claimed that the behavior for two thieves is the opposite. > > Also my earlier posts, I am pretty sure it was clear that I mean multiple builds. > > You claimed that thief has better sustain than guardian. On any of the 4 well known viable builds....guardian has more sustain. > > > My OP? > > I think sword 3 combo is fine, it helps thieves be bunker busters. I want that in the game. > > Also people have mentioned wvw in these forums before when describing problems against other classes....so no the perspective is not "obvious". > Thief being a bunker buster is kind of indicative of how over-tuned it is and will be especially if it doesn't get hit as hard as the other meta specs are about to be. Traditionally thief has mostly excelled against other glass specs because of having extremely reliable damage thanks to the insane mobility, several instant teleports to combo off of, tiny cast times on hard hitting skills, and plentiful stealth to make it even more unpredictable. The sd does trade some mobility and some stealth for better sustain but the mobility is still unrivaled by anything other than another thief and the damage is still reliable and strong, it still is an anti-glass build that just so happens to be anti-bunker, it is anti everything and needs a weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > > > > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > > > > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > > > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > > > > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > > > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > > > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > > > > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > > > > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. > > > > You dont undestand, he is talking about the Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honour/Virtues/DragonHunter build, with Shouts, Meditations and Concecrations, lots of blinds, blocks, heals and massive damage! Oh and dont forget to bring those Spirit Weapons my friend, thats the most OP aspect of this build. > > Well that's all broken up into at least 4 widely known viable builds. > > I forgot to ask, are we talking from a wvw perspective or conquest? > > How many times do non firebrand players get ask to swap if double guard? > > If thief is this amazing counter to everything, why not just have everyone swap to thief after the queue pops? > > Why worry about a scrouge-firebrand combo, shoot son we got two thieves...smoke em. > > I know some will internet argue just to argue, but how many people believe "poor baby guard, he's so weak and helpless against teef"? Probably just player bad at guardian. > > I am not saying it can't be done, but normally I don't lose to a thief in conquest unless he has help. Most players I have observed that are proficient at guardian don't either. > > But I'll repeat, I am not saying it can not be done. > 4 viable builds? I know Fb support, what are the other 3 viable guard builds on this meta(havent sPvP played this season) WvW or Conquest? I am the one who ask you that lol you talking about a guard with high damage, Aegis and Blind "spam", heals on block and dodge, etc...thats why i made the all trait lines build joke, thats all options that a guard can have, but he cant take all that lol When I played last season never saw someone saying to people swap, even if was Core of DH...but for sure a Spellbreaker or Holosmith would be 10 times better. Yeah right? If thief is so OP why everyone dosent play Thief? Great argument there...its a team game, you need professions that can perform well in specific roles...Thief is one of the best(if not the best) at his role. You dont need more than one to cap/decap and +1, etc. Like i said, I havent played sPvP this season, but I had roamed a lot on WvW...please, try to get your guard and fight a thief, dosent even need to be a really good one, and see if your Aegis and blind spam will do anything against it...even if you somehow manage to pin him down, you will just watch him dissapear to the other corner of the map, and theres no sword 2 or JI enough that will be able to help you close the gap..."its WvW, i dosent have anything to deal with sPvP", on both game modes professions shares the exact same mechanics, what is broken on one, is broken on the other...but its allright, i am probably just "bad at guardian" right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlowslol.1974 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 I dont think larcenous strike is a problem maybe Guardian player have counter SD thief for YEARS and think they dont carry by the class ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"XxsdgxX.8109" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > I am glad that thief is an anti bunker, will be even more so after the split hopefully > > > > > > Thief is anti every thing, which is the problem. It would be understandable if a build is designed to counter one thing. That is how the game should be. But thief builds counter nearly every thing. > > > > > > > > > > Precisely, pretty much the first step to have a "viable" build is to ensure that it doesn't get deleted by a thief in the first 3 secs of a fight. > > In other words thieves usually dictate what is viable and what isn't, has been like that for years and it's incredibly unhealthy for the game. > > Both mesmer and thief are extremely unhealthy for this game's build diversity/PvP. > > Pretty sure the first step in not getting deleted by a thief in the first 3 seconds of a fight is to L2P > > Please stop confusing dying on a guardian to a thief in 3 seconds a build issue instead of what it really is. A L2P issue There aren't many l2p situations in gw2 atm, stop pretending like there is. Because its shameful. The game is busted at this time, anyone with common sense knows this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"XxsdgxX.8109" said: > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > > I am glad that thief is an anti bunker, will be even more so after the split hopefully > > > > > > > > Thief is anti every thing, which is the problem. It would be understandable if a build is designed to counter one thing. That is how the game should be. But thief builds counter nearly every thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Precisely, pretty much the first step to have a "viable" build is to ensure that it doesn't get deleted by a thief in the first 3 secs of a fight. > > > In other words thieves usually dictate what is viable and what isn't, has been like that for years and it's incredibly unhealthy for the game. > > > Both mesmer and thief are extremely unhealthy for this game's build diversity/PvP. > > > > Pretty sure the first step in not getting deleted by a thief in the first 3 seconds of a fight is to L2P > > > > Please stop confusing dying on a guardian to a thief in 3 seconds a build issue instead of what it really is. A L2P issue > > There aren't many l2p situations in gw2 atm, stop pretending like there is. Because its shameful. The game is busted at this time, anyone with common sense knows this. > any competent player faced off against even the their steepest hard counter shouldn't die in 3 seconds if this is happening it's b/c you need to l2p since you generally see this after privilege is removed...you hard countered thief for 5 years as a guardian. You didn't even need to be that good at the game to beat the best thieves in the game on a guardian. Now that steep of a hard counter isn't there you are dying in 3 seconds. This is a l2p issue. Go play a thief and learn how to not get rekt upon the mere presence of a thief in a game. Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > you generally see this after privilege is removed...you hard countered thief for 5 years as a guardian. You didn't even need to be that good at the game to beat the best thieves in the game on a guardian. Now that steep of a hard counter isn't there you are dying in 3 seconds. This is a l2p issue. Go play a thief and learn how to not get rekt upon the mere presence of a thief in a game. > > Thank You You? You??? Stop right there. I'm not a guardian. I sometimes play the class but I DO NOT identify with it. I'm looking at the game mechanics purely from a objective and design point of view. Not from "my favorite class" point of view. And that is the problem. When you are attached to a class, it becomes less likely for you to provide unbiased perspective. When I play this game its purely to test skills, builds and other mechanics and changes implemented by the devs in pvp. So when I say thief is busted its from a design pov. Yes they are busted and so are many other professions in pvp. That is the reality. The game has never been great, its never been balanced in comparison to its predecessor. But its never been this out of control. If you could read old forum posts when the game first came out, you would see people complaining about thief backstabbing them for 5k. Even then no profession could delete a health bar within a couple of seconds. Now its the normal, that 5k backstab thief use to do? Its probably less than a auto attack chain these days. Would you not say that is a problem? When the health tiers are 11k, 15k, 19k. Its not unreasonable for a player to talk about how their health vanished in a second. Because its true. At this point its not really a l2p problem, its "Anet fix your game" problem. Damage all around needs to be toned down significantly as well as the rate at which invul and evade frames are thrown out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > you generally see this after privilege is removed...you hard countered thief for 5 years as a guardian. You didn't even need to be that good at the game to beat the best thieves in the game on a guardian. Now that steep of a hard counter isn't there you are dying in 3 seconds. This is a l2p issue. Go play a thief and learn how to not get rekt upon the mere presence of a thief in a game. > > > > Thank You > > You? You??? Stop right there. I'm not a guardian. I sometimes play the class but I DO NOT identify with it. I'm looking at the game mechanics purely from a objective and design point of view. Not from "my favorite class" point of view. And that is the problem. When you are attached to a class, it becomes less likely for you to provide unbiased perspective. When I play this game its purely to test skills, builds and other mechanics and changes implemented by the devs in pvp. So when I say thief is busted its from a design pov. Yes they are busted and so are many other professions in pvp. That is the reality. > > The game has never been great, its never been balanced in comparison to its predecessor. But its never been this out of control. If you could read old forum posts when the game first came out, you would see people complaining about thief backstabbing them for 5k. Even then no profession could delete a health bar within a couple of seconds. Now its the normal, that 5k backstab thief use to do? Its probably less than a auto attack chain these days. Would you not say that is a problem? When the health tiers are 11k, 15k, 19k. Its not unreasonable for a player to talk about how their health vanished in a second. Because its true. At this point its not really a l2p problem, its "Anet fix your game" problem. Damage all around needs to be toned down significantly as well as the rate at which invul and evade frames are thrown out. > > I might agree with this post, but what you're saying has nothing to do with thief SD3. Every class in the game has higher burst than thief SD3, and most do it with less setup and with less telegraphing. If you're going to find a problem with thief, and there are a few, SD3 isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > you generally see this after privilege is removed...you hard countered thief for 5 years as a guardian. You didn't even need to be that good at the game to beat the best thieves in the game on a guardian. Now that steep of a hard counter isn't there you are dying in 3 seconds. This is a l2p issue. Go play a thief and learn how to not get rekt upon the mere presence of a thief in a game. > > > > Thank You > > You? You??? Stop right there. I'm not a guardian. I sometimes play the class but I DO NOT identify with it. I'm looking at the game mechanics purely from a objective and design point of view. Not from "my favorite class" point of view. And that is the problem. When you are attached to a class, it becomes less likely for you to provide unbiased perspective. When I play this game its purely to test skills, builds and other mechanics and changes implemented by the devs in pvp. So when I say thief is busted its from a design pov. Yes they are busted and so are many other professions in pvp. That is the reality. > > The game has never been great, its never been balanced in comparison to its predecessor. But its never been this out of control. If you could read old forum posts when the game first came out, you would see people complaining about thief backstabbing them for 5k. Even then no profession could delete a health bar within a couple of seconds. Now its the normal, that 5k backstab thief use to do? Its probably less than a auto attack chain these days. Would you not say that is a problem? When the health tiers are 11k, 15k, 19k. Its not unreasonable for a player to talk about how their health vanished in a second. Because its true. At this point its not really a l2p problem, its "Anet fix your game" problem. Damage all around needs to be toned down significantly as well as the rate at which invul and evade frames are thrown out. > > You don't identify with Guardian? WTF is that all about? You play the damn class you identify with it. Do you identify as a gamer or just try out games on the computer?? That's prolly the weakest statement I've read in a long while here. You then go on about how this game has never been great & it sucks compared to gw1. Why are you posting here? In the beginning of the game thief was mugging you for over 5k and back stabbing for a helluva lot more. Do you even know what you are talking about? I'm going to let you go do some more research now and come back to debate this Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > You don't identify with Guardian? kitten is that all about? You play the kitten class you identify with it. No sir I am not a guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilson.9865 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Perfect skill for assasin-class. The tool of justice against bunker guardians/boon warriors/holo bursters. Skill has 2 phases and 130 range. 130... If you wanna avoide dmg - move/knockback thief, dodge. Simple. Thief whithout trick on his sleeve? Rly guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 @"Aza.2105" and @"Jinks.2057" Please stop this useless argument, just agree to disagree. Not even sure what this scrap is about. But the mentioned blind spam guardian has is Sword 2. Generally speaking I'm quite alright with Larcenous Strike but maybe 10% less damage on all parts of the skill wouldn't be too bad. The split balance patch when bunkers get the shaft, thieves won't even notice the difference. On another note, Swindler's Equilibrium needs a bigger cooldown, maybe 30 seconds? That would be the same as Steals own cooldown. I wouldn't mind if this traits cooldown was tied to Steal cooldown, so it would be 26 seconds with Lead Attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Meanwhile guardian hammer needs a nerf because there's no counterplay to a spammable skill that instantly takes away 60% thief's health bar (and deals AoE damage). This is what you have done, internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allias.1420 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > I am really ok with thieves, not major grievances ...**it's just Larcenous strike** I have problem with : > > -big damage > -Unblockable > -2 boon steal > > Too much going on for a single skill, I don't get anet why they insist with this design ideology of having a single skill virtually doing everything on its own, full counter comes to mind but I leave that for another time. > Something must be taken away from that combo, those 3 elements should be fairly distributed....not stacked together for an explosive result and especially now that you're planning to reduce ( rightly so ) passive gameplay. I can see where you're coming from. I agree that it is a very powerful skill on its own. A simple damage nerf would probably be enough to balance it though, like 10% less damage or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deShinigami.2387 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > > > > > @"deShinigami.2387" said: > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > > > No its fine. This skill will reduce the chances of bunkers rising again. Nerf across the board and bunkers will survive the skill split. I hate bunkers, you think sword 3 thieves are bad for the game, but I say bunkers are worse for the game. Something needs to kick sb butt too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This same request comes up daily on multiple posts but literally only by 3 different people. 10-20 may think it needs to go but I would be willing to bet even more want FB bunkers, mage bunkers, and druids gone even more so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only, it counters guardians inherit defense in aegis. That's the only form of sustain core guard / DH has. Giving classes more and more unblockables while keeping guard base hp the lowest in the game and close to no access to vigor nor evade frames. > > > > > > > > > > > > but lots of blind, access to invuln and triple heal. the match is a fight not a free kill for dh anymore. that's how it should be. > > > > > > > > > > > > also thieves dont have access to aegis not stolen or granted by allies, and they have low health pool as well. > > > > > > > > > > The "Lots of blind" is your F1 (15 sec cd on core guard, 25 sec cd on DH), and focus 4 (20 second cooldown). So granted they both hit on cooldown, this equals to 2 blinds per 17.5 / 22.5 seconds depending on spec. (Unless DH actually runs shield which he usually does, then it's only 1 blind every 25 seconds.) > > > > > > > > > > The 3 sec invuln on our elite skill with a 115 second cooldown un-traited is barely worth mentioning, but Ill give you that one. Triple heal? Would you care to elaborate? > > > > > I'm going out on a limb and guessing you mean the Healing skill and F2 x2 (with elite reset). The f2 is a 1.6k heal on a 30 second cooldown. To put that into perspective, thats about 3 regen ticks from druid or Firebrand. The Healing skill core guardian uses also heals for 1.6k base with a 20 second cooldown, not very impressive. > > > > > > > > > > Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. Thieves does not have access to Aegis, such as Guardians do. They do however have higher block-uptime potential than guardians, simply by running Bandits Defense. (I know they don't run this) > > > > > They also have Instant Reflexes which is a 2 seconds passive invuln on a 40 second cooldown, which is almost twice as high invuln uptime as Guardians have. > > > > > They also have evade frames and access to perma vigor when running Acrobatics, aswell as Signet of Agility. Not to mention waaayyy superior mobility. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: You tell me Guardians have a lot of blinds when comparing it to Thief? This is simply false. > > > > > > > > You dont undestand, he is talking about the Zeal/Radiance/Valor/Honour/Virtues/DragonHunter build, with Shouts, Meditations and Concecrations, lots of blinds, blocks, heals and massive damage! Oh and dont forget to bring those Spirit Weapons my friend, thats the most OP aspect of this build. > > > > > > Well that's all broken up into at least 4 widely known viable builds. > > > > > > I forgot to ask, are we talking from a wvw perspective or conquest? > > > > > > How many times do non firebrand players get ask to swap if double guard? > > > > > > If thief is this amazing counter to everything, why not just have everyone swap to thief after the queue pops? > > > > > > Why worry about a scrouge-firebrand combo, shoot son we got two thieves...smoke em. > > > > > > I know some will internet argue just to argue, but how many people believe "poor baby guard, he's so weak and helpless against teef"? Probably just player bad at guardian. > > > > > > I am not saying it can't be done, but normally I don't lose to a thief in conquest unless he has help. Most players I have observed that are proficient at guardian don't either. > > > > > > But I'll repeat, I am not saying it can not be done. > > > > > > > You still seem confused. I'm not talking about Firebrand, and you can't compare Firebrand to a core guardian because the builds simply doesn't play remotely the same. A Firebrand is kinda like a Support Tempest, while Core Guardian is like a Fresh Air Weaver. If the two builds were viable, you would not complain about having the two in the same team. Same goes for healing reaper and Scourge. Gunflame Warrior and Spellbreaker. Chrono bunker and Power Shatter ... You get my point. > > > > I'm not stating that **Firebrand isn't OP** because it **CLEARLY IS** and should never have been so highly tuned to begin with. But don't come in here telling me that Core Guardians and DH's have 4 viable different builds with "superior sustain". > > > > Edit: We are obviously talking a conquest perspective considering we are on the PvP forums. > > What are you talking about? Confused? > > You are confused. > > Do people generally want two support firebrands on their team? I never thought so, and so I said unless they are both FB, dual guardians generally are not asked to swap in a match. I also claimed that the behavior for two thieves is the opposite. > > Also my earlier posts, I am pretty sure it was clear that I mean multiple builds. > > You claimed that thief has better sustain than guardian. On any of the 4 well known viable builds....guardian has more sustain. > > > My OP? > > I think sword 3 combo is fine, it helps thieves be bunker busters. I want that in the game. > > Also people have mentioned wvw in these forums before when describing problems against other classes....so no the perspective is not "obvious". > In what universe do you live in? I never stated Thieves had more sustain than Guardians, I said they have access to more blocks and evades than Guardians do. That does not dictate wether or not they have more sustain in total. Also, since when do people even want one Dragonhunter on their team? 2015? People generally ping the virtues when a Guardian joins the game and asks him to re-roll Firebrand. Also, you keep saying "4 well known viable builds". Care to tell me which builds you're thinking of? I count Firebrand, that is meta. Core Hammer that is just a sub-par Holosmith / S/D thief. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Core s/d does not run bandits defence, nor does the daredevil version as far as I know. In fact I rarely see that skill anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: > Meanwhile guardian hammer needs a nerf because there's no counterplay to a spammable skill that instantly takes away 60% thief's health bar (and deals AoE damage). > > This is what you have done, internet. I don’t know if you’re trolling or serious. But it was a good laugh, thank you. To the topic: Remove or lower the damage without boons on LS. Increase Infiltrator’s Strike’s cast time by 1/4 seconds. Those will fix S/D probably, but I think the real problem of thief overall is Shortbow. Too much utility for one weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"deShinigami.2387" said: >Since you compare thief to guard, Ill continue on that track. ...... > I'm not here to discuss the tankiness factors between Guardians and Thieves. Im merely stating that Guardian and Dragonhunter (which was never even remotely op anywhere above 1600 rating) has very little going for them in terms of sustain. I live in this one. So as you can see that you even stating that you comparing thieves and guardian, beforehand you mentioned thieves have good sustain and obviously here that guards have little sustain. I took it as thieves have more sustain. A thief bringing Bandit's Defense is like a guardian bringing a trait line you disdain. Even untraited guardians have higher invuln by the way. 6/105 is 5.7% uptime vs 4/80 is 5% uptime... (i personally use pain response right now because it can trigger up to 3-4 times per minute POTENTIALLY) not everyone who plays guardian plays a support firebrand. but if only the good players do, and firebrand is a must, then a sword 3 thief is not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > Core s/d does not run bandits defence, nor does the daredevil version as far as I know. In fact I rarely see that skill anymore. I use it with DrD, it's nice to be able to block an incoming burst, and the followup kick is great for PI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Are people who want sword 3 nerfed arguing from a node wars perspective or roam wars? (people are citing issues in both, so which is the more prevalent issue?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > Meanwhile guardian hammer needs a nerf because there's no counterplay to a spammable skill that instantly takes away 60% thief's health bar (and deals AoE damage). > > > > This is what you have done, internet. > > I don’t know if you’re trolling or serious. But it was a good laugh, thank you. > > To the topic: > Remove or lower the damage without boons on LS. > Increase Infiltrator’s Strike’s cast time by 1/4 seconds. > > Those will fix S/D probably, but I think the real problem of thief overall is Shortbow. Too much utility for one weapon. Remove the damage without boons on LS... so it's an unlockable attack that does no damage and doesn't take boons? Lol, that'll fix LS for sure. Have you people tried walking to the side? Serious question. Thief gets sb5 because mobility is the one thing the class is supposed to be good at. Without sb5 there is no thief in this game. Even then, anet in their infinite wisdom have decided that the almighty mesmer should have a spammable mirage cloak dash on sword, as well as blink and portal and jaunt and staff 4, which completely negates anything thief does with sb shadowstep and steal. So you can nerf sb5 when mirage sword 1 gets deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Legatus.3608" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > Meanwhile guardian hammer needs a nerf because there's no counterplay to a spammable skill that instantly takes away 60% thief's health bar (and deals AoE damage). > > > > > > This is what you have done, internet. > > > > I don’t know if you’re trolling or serious. But it was a good laugh, thank you. > > > > To the topic: > > Remove or lower the damage without boons on LS. > > Increase Infiltrator’s Strike’s cast time by 1/4 seconds. > > > > Those will fix S/D probably, but I think the real problem of thief overall is Shortbow. Too much utility for one weapon. > > Remove the damage without boons on LS... so it's an unlockable attack that does no damage and doesn't take boons? Lol, that'll fix LS for sure. > > Have you people tried walking to the side? Serious question. > > Thief gets sb5 because mobility is the one thing the class is supposed to be good at. Without sb5 there is no thief in this game. > > Even then, anet in their infinite wisdom have decided that the almighty mesmer should have a spammable mirage cloak dash on sword, as well as blink and portal and jaunt, which completely negates anything thief does with sb shadowstep and steal. So you can nerf sb5 when mirage sword 1 gets deleted. **First things first, Larcenous DOESN’T DEAL ZERO DAMAGE WHEN THE ENEMY HAS NO BOONS.** You keep saying that, but I’m not sure that you ever looked at Larcenous’ base damage and power coefficients. Here; https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike You seem to misunderstand my suggestion, I said lower or remove the damage without boons effect, I didn’t say remove the boonsteal. And even without boons, the damage increase isn’t that much, it’s %20. Just lower it to %10 and be done with it. Secondly, you can’t sometimes just walk sideways to dodge FS. Especially when you are casting a skill and thief uses FS, there’s almost no way you can dodge it. Thieves who know that their enemy is capable of dodging their FS, they combo it with steal. As far as I know, most thieves use FS before they use steal, to do more damage with steal, along with gaining access to LS. For shortbow, it does so many things at once, in my opinion. Auto attack that hits many targets? Check. 300 Radius cleave that does respectable damage? Check. Spammable evade while crippling enemy? Check. Unblockable poison field with daze? Check. 600 Range Z-Axis teleport? Check. It needs to have a weakness. It’s a utility weapon, I get it, but it still does other things while being one of the best utility weapons in the game. I hate when Thief players bring up Mesmers to justify their power, and Mesmer players bring Thieves. It’s just an unending circle I find it rather funny sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > Auto attack that hits many targets? Check. 300 Radius cleave that does respectable damage? Check. Spammable evade while crippling enemy? Check. Unblockable poison field with daze? Check. 600 Range Z-Axis teleport? Check. It needs to have a weakness. It’s a utility weapon, I get it, but it still does other things while being one of the best utility weapons in the game. Initiative cost, low damage, physical projectiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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