Your thoughts on the Holy Trinity abscence

[miraude.2107]

I personally hate the holy trinity because of other mmos. In WoW, it was because the specs were the assigned specs and how dare you try to make a blood death knight a dps build and not tank or how dare you do balance druid and be a healer. You were niched hard into 'oh want to tank? well you can only do it with this, this and this' and it led to plenty times of frustration where I wanted to play differently with a class but was told flat by game mechanics lol no, you dps and will be dps rogue.

In ESO, it went more along the lines of 'if it works, we'll allow it.' I remember playing when it first came out and people flat saying 'dragon knights and templars best tanks' and the sorcerers going 'hold my sweetroll' and blowing it away with tanking because they were stuck in that holy trinity clutch of other mmos. The way they did it was a serious breath of fresh air because I didn't need to make a gagillion new characters to play different styles, i just needed to switch gear and respec my skill points.

And that's what I like about GW2 as well. I can change up my engineer/thief/guardian/ranger to see what works for me and people are willing to give it the benefit of at least seeing if it works in a raid instead of getting the nonono I'd get in WoW right off the bat. I hope that GW2 continues down that route and eventually ends up where ESO is at.

And yes, I know that there will always be those certain builds that are topdetop of the crop. That happens with every game where min/maxers are present. I just like the fact that I'm not set in stone of being dps only and need to make another character to tank/heal/etc.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"miraude.2107" said:

> I personally hate the holy trinity because of other mmos. In WoW, it was because the specs were the assigned specs and how dare you try to make a blood death knight a dps build and not tank or how dare you do balance druid and be a healer. You were niched hard into 'oh want to tank? well you can only do it with this, this and this' and it led to plenty times of frustration where I wanted to play differently with a class but was told flat by game mechanics lol no, you dps and will be dps rogue.

> In ESO, it went more along the lines of 'if it works, we'll allow it.' I remember playing when it first came out and people flat saying 'dragon knights and templars best tanks' and the sorcerers going 'hold my sweetroll' and blowing it away with tanking because they were stuck in that holy trinity clutch of other mmos. The way they did it was a serious breath of fresh air because I didn't need to make a gagillion new characters to play different styles, i just needed to switch gear and respec my skill points.

> And that's what I like about GW2 as well. I can change up my engineer/thief/guardian/ranger to see what works for me and people are willing to give it the benefit of at least seeing if it works in a raid instead of getting the nonono I'd get in WoW right off the bat. I hope that GW2 continues down that route and eventually ends up where ESO is at.

> And yes, I know that there will always be those certain builds that are topdetop of the crop. That happens with every game where min/maxers are present. I just like the fact that I'm not set in stone of being dps only and need to make another character to tank/heal/etc.

 

but gw2 raids are all about trinity-like roleplaying

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"miraude.2107" said:

> > I personally hate the holy trinity because of other mmos. In WoW, it was because the specs were the assigned specs and how dare you try to make a blood death knight a dps build and not tank or how dare you do balance druid and be a healer. You were niched hard into 'oh want to tank? well you can only do it with this, this and this' and it led to plenty times of frustration where I wanted to play differently with a class but was told flat by game mechanics lol no, you dps and will be dps rogue.

> > In ESO, it went more along the lines of 'if it works, we'll allow it.' I remember playing when it first came out and people flat saying 'dragon knights and templars best tanks' and the sorcerers going 'hold my sweetroll' and blowing it away with tanking because they were stuck in that holy trinity clutch of other mmos. The way they did it was a serious breath of fresh air because I didn't need to make a gagillion new characters to play different styles, i just needed to switch gear and respec my skill points.

> > And that's what I like about GW2 as well. I can change up my engineer/thief/guardian/ranger to see what works for me and people are willing to give it the benefit of at least seeing if it works in a raid instead of getting the nonono I'd get in WoW right off the bat. I hope that GW2 continues down that route and eventually ends up where ESO is at.

> > And yes, I know that there will always be those certain builds that are topdetop of the crop. That happens with every game where min/maxers are present. I just like the fact that I'm not set in stone of being dps only and need to make another character to tank/heal/etc.

>

> but gw2 raids are all about trinity-like roleplaying

 

It's the height of naiveté to believe that just because there isn't a hard trinity that there won't still be roles in any high end group content. What we have here is a "soft" trinity of sorts, but it's still not a true trinity. And that's fine. The "no trinity" concept never meant that you CAN'T specialize your character in to a damage soak/mitigator, or that you CAN'T focus on a strictly healing role, both of which have been possible since launch, it just means that you aren't required to have other players do so. Having clearly defined roles will ALWAYS be the most efficient way to fight, which is why sports teams have field positions and armies have specialized training between different soldiers. That doesn't mean a 10 tempest team is incapable of defeating a raid boss, It's just inefficient and carries greater risks than the standard team setup with bannerslave, dedicated DPS, chrono-tank, druid heal-support.

[miraude.2107]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"miraude.2107" said:

> > I personally hate the holy trinity because of other mmos. In WoW, it was because the specs were the assigned specs and how dare you try to make a blood death knight a dps build and not tank or how dare you do balance druid and be a healer. You were niched hard into 'oh want to tank? well you can only do it with this, this and this' and it led to plenty times of frustration where I wanted to play differently with a class but was told flat by game mechanics lol no, you dps and will be dps rogue.

> > In ESO, it went more along the lines of 'if it works, we'll allow it.' I remember playing when it first came out and people flat saying 'dragon knights and templars best tanks' and the sorcerers going 'hold my sweetroll' and blowing it away with tanking because they were stuck in that holy trinity clutch of other mmos. The way they did it was a serious breath of fresh air because I didn't need to make a gagillion new characters to play different styles, i just needed to switch gear and respec my skill points.

> > And that's what I like about GW2 as well. I can change up my engineer/thief/guardian/ranger to see what works for me and people are willing to give it the benefit of at least seeing if it works in a raid instead of getting the nonono I'd get in WoW right off the bat. I hope that GW2 continues down that route and eventually ends up where ESO is at.

> > And yes, I know that there will always be those certain builds that are topdetop of the crop. That happens with every game where min/maxers are present. I just like the fact that I'm not set in stone of being dps only and need to make another character to tank/heal/etc.

>

> but gw2 raids are all about trinity-like roleplaying

 

And I mentioned that. There will always be builds that are 'omgdebest' because there will always be min/maxers. Min/maxers are the ones that are hardcore must get every ounce of dps/heals/etc. I flat stated that in a casual raid in this game, I can be given the benefit of trying out and seeing what happens where in a casual raid in WoW, there were classes that were **never** taken regardless of how laidback the group was. Nothing like being an enhance shaman and being told 'naw no melee, go heals or switch to hunter/mage'. With GW2, the softish trinity that is here is great because ya, some classes do better at tanking than others but there is flexibility in joining up with a raid made by a casual group because they are willing to try things out and I hope they continue that route and expand it into what ESO has done. Not the stubborn, brutish way WoW is where you are a priest, heal or gtfo.

[Hannelore.8153]

Alot has already been said in this thread so I won't repeat any of it, I'll just give my opinion.

 

I am in favor of Holy Trinity style... BUILDS.

I am not in favor of Holy Trinity style... CLASSES.

 

In other words, I like when an encounter can *require* a healer. But i would prefer if any class could be the healer and what determines if they're a healer or not is their gear, build, food, etc. not their class. Some variance in effectiveness is okay, but that's all.

[jbrother.1340]

> @"Pigbottom.9837" said:

> I think we are asking the wrong question to begin with. The right question would be: "What is the alternative to the holy trinity?". The trinity wasn't invented, it evolved from the way people play games together. It sucks sometimes and has a lot of shortcomings, but the fact that even here we seem to always be back to it tells me no one has been able to find a real viable alternative.

 

Yet tons of people play this game who like it the way it is. They are profiting from it being the way it is. People who came here and preferred "there" complain about it but that is not really valid if you didn't want non-trinity in the first place.

 

I would say good or bad this running live game is somewhat of an alternative to it...

[Scipion.7548]

> @"miraude.2107" said:

> in WoW, there were classes that were **never** taken regardless of how laidback the group was. Nothing like being an enhance shaman and being told 'naw no melee, go heals or switch to hunter/mage'.

 

When did you play ? Vanilla ? I played hardcore raid PvE from BC to Cataclysm on a first server guild and casual raid PvE during MoP and as a enhancement shaman I was never asked to play something else. I am more frustrated when playing "serious" PvE or PvP on GW2 than on WoW. On GW2 I want to play a support guardian and I always being told to play Berserker DPS Dragon Hunter. On WoW when I play my favourite spec on a class I never felt being a dead weight and the only time mate ask me to change my spec is when I play a pure DPS class.

 

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> Alot has already been said in this thread so I won't repeat any of it, I'll just give my opinion.

> I am in favor of Holy Trinity style... BUILDS.

> I am not in favor of Holy Trinity style... CLASSES.

> In other words, I like when an encounter can *require* a healer. But i would prefer if any class could be the healer and what determines if they're a healer or not is their gear, build, food, etc. not their class. Some variance in effectiveness is okay, but that's all.

 

This.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> All the things listed here as pros for no-trinity are actually due to the action combat. Picking up the slack, coping with others dying, soloing content, being responsible for your own survival(to a degree), having the option to(in low-mid tier content) go with whatever applies is because classes have the ability to dodge. Every single one of these things applies to, say, Tera, which is a trinity action combat MMO.

>

> PS: How bad a healer do you have to be for people to blame you even for stuff that had nothing to do with you? Always amazes me.

 

You don't have to be bad at all, you just have to be a healer, and that DPS that zergs 2 rooms ahead will be crying all night about how that healer let them die. In this era of "elite players", it's always someone else's fault when one of them dies, even if they pull the classic Leroy Jenkins thing and wipe the entire party.

 

The primary advantage that I've noticed so far is that there are no real queue times, if there's a group for what you want to run, you join it, and go. Compare this to ESO, where I waited for 4 hours, well, I did other things while I was in the queue for 4 hours, and never did get a group to pop.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I never liked the trinity myself. It is a system of negatives, where every class is built to be incapable on its own. GW2 gets several things right, such as giving everyone the ability to rez, everyone a heal skill, and everyone active defenses. This means that I am wholly capable on my own, and I am not dependent on the weakest link of the team.

 

My experience with online games was different from other people. I cut my teeth on Phantasy Star Online and Phantasy Star Universe. Those games let players carry healing items, and let all non-robots use healing spells to keep themselves alive. They were also action games. I also played runescape, that had a combat triangle and not a combat trinity. It was more of a PVP thing, but the lack of a static build meant that you were whatever you decided to gear for. Another game I played was City of Heroes, which didn't have a trinity insomuch as it had a dodecahedron.

 

The prospect of abandoning all of that to be impotent but selectively beneficial just never sounded good to me. We talk about tanks, healers, and DPS, but I want to know where the Red Mage went. Preferably I'd like to have a game where the damage is standardized, and the classes are given flavor via the other things they can do.

[TWMagimay.9057]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > All the things listed here as pros for no-trinity are actually due to the action combat. Picking up the slack, coping with others dying, soloing content, being responsible for your own survival(to a degree), having the option to(in low-mid tier content) go with whatever applies is because classes have the ability to dodge. Every single one of these things applies to, say, Tera, which is a trinity action combat MMO.

> >

> > PS: How bad a healer do you have to be for people to blame you even for stuff that had nothing to do with you? Always amazes me.

>

> You don't have to be bad at all, you just have to be a healer, and that DPS that zergs 2 rooms ahead will be crying all night about how that healer let them die. In this era of "elite players", it's always someone else's fault when one of them dies, even if they pull the classic Leroy Jenkins thing and wipe the entire party.

>

> The primary advantage that I've noticed so far is that there are no real queue times, if there's a group for what you want to run, you join it, and go. Compare this to ESO, where I waited for 4 hours, well, I did other things while I was in the queue for 4 hours, and never did get a group to pop.

 

I've been a healer for 10 years. I can't even think of a reason for you to be 2 rooms behind the dps doing nothing. And whenever anyone pulled a Leroy Jenkins, the rest of the party did not turn to me and say "why didn't you stop him?" as they were too busy yelling at the guy who actually did it. I've actually seen people kick a guy who was yelling at me when I had messed up because they were too afraid I'll pull an "entitled healer" move on them. As a healer, you have to be so absurdly bad and bring absolutely no value to the party for every single one of them to jump on you and risk you throwing a tantrum and ruining their run. Even healers so are kinda bad but still bring something to the table don't get abused often because people would rather suck it up and finish the run than have to look for another healer. Again , 10 years as a healer main and I've spent some time moonlighting as a mage to help out newbie healers. Never, not even once, did I see an entire party rage at a healer for no reason. There are two types of healers who perpetuate the "blame the healer" meme: bad healers who don't even realise they messed up and good healers whose egos don't allow them to admit they deserved it.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> I want to know where the Red Mage went.

 

They're DPS. :P

(I know that's not what you meant, but I couldn't resist.)

 

 

[Aridon.8362]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > The holy trinity exists...... In wvw

>

> How do you control enemy aggro in wvw?

 

That's not what the holy trinity is about. The holy trinity is tank heal dps, in wvw you can tank and heal for the group as a guardian, ranger, revenant, and do minor variants as elementalist or mesmer. In pve that doesn't exist because player mentality is dps dps dps.

[Ardid.7203]

To tank IS to control enemies aggro.

[Scipion.7548]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> To tank IS to control enemies aggro.

 

To tank is taking damage to protect allies.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Scipion.7548" said:

> > @"Ardid.7203" said:

> > To tank IS to control enemies aggro.

>

> To tank is taking damage to protect allies.

 

Which you can't do without controlling aggro.

[marelooke.9708]

Just pointing out that many "old" MMOs (eg EverQuest 2 and probably EverQuest 1 as well) had a fourth role: buffer (eg. the Dirge). WoW simplified things (like WoW always has done) and scrapped that role entirely.

 

> @"Scipion.7548" said:

> > @"miraude.2107" said:

> > in WoW, there were classes that were **never** taken regardless of how laidback the group was. Nothing like being an enhance shaman and being told 'naw no melee, go heals or switch to hunter/mage'.

>

> When did you play ? Vanilla ? I played hardcore raid PvE from BC to Cataclysm on a first server guild and casual raid PvE during MoP and as a enhancement shaman I was never asked to play something else. I am more frustrated when playing "serious" PvE or PvP on GW2 than on WoW. On GW2 I want to play a support guardian and I always being told to play Berserker DPS Dragon Hunter. On WoW when I play my favourite spec on a class I never felt being a dead weight and the only time mate ask me to change my spec is when I play a pure DPS class.

>

Same experience here, we had a Paladin (off)tank during TBC (not exactly "meta") an enhancement shaman as well, arcane mage too (which weren't exactly great during TBC) an Arms warrior (I think? Used 2 one handed weapons, meta was 2H iirc) and probably more things that weren't part of the "meta". And we got up to M'uru before WotLK hit without much trouble (that, of course, being rather a relative term when talking about endgame raiding).

 

Arguably the problem here isn't the game, or whether there is a holy trinity or not, but that the general mentality that has shifted. Since WoW broke raiding with the addition LFR and PUGging has become the norm (no sane person PUGged with total strangers before WotLK. We had a raid "PUG" channel on our WoW realm, with only members of the top 5 or so raid guilds of our faction...) and with it acceptance for "weird" (or rather "non-meta") builds has all but disappeared. Not because they don't work, but because in a PUG the amount of work required to accommodate a non-meta setup is just not worth it. Both because often PUGs don't have the knowledge required (especially when you start messing with replacing Chrono's with Firebrands or the likes) or just don't want to put in the effort required. Which, for PUGs is perfectly defensible, trying to find some off-meta build to fit in your off-meta PUG is just going to be much harder than just going with the flow (of course, when we are talking pure DPS that's where things get blurry). So while this makes some sense in PUGs this mentality unfortunately also often carries over to statics.

 

There's also the fact that WoW raids were bigger (25man was the norm during TBC/WotLK), meaning that generally a raid guild had one or two (or more) of each class in its raid composition. So if after balance patch x mages were suddenly slightly ahead of warlocks that wasn't a big deal, what one lost the other probably gained so it all evened out. Next patch things might just switch around. The reason why this wasn't a big deal is because Blizzard balanced around this. And the reason for that is because in ("ancient") WoW you generally had one endgame raid ready character per expansion (and most people stuck with that through multiple expansions). Fully gearing a second one (while also keeping the other at max gear level) was pretty much utter insanity, let alone more (people were also a lot more attached to a long term "main" character for other reasons. Like achievements, after their introduction, and titles being character bound, rather than account bound). Contrast that with the relative ease of leveling and gearing characters in GW2 (and, as I imagine, current day WoW) and suddenly "meta" stacking makes a lot more sense. If it's so easy to just switch all your gear and even your class whenever something changes then that's obviously what min-maxers will do. And given how easy it is it's no wonder this becomes the norm.

 

 

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > > All the things listed here as pros for no-trinity are actually due to the action combat. Picking up the slack, coping with others dying, soloing content, being responsible for your own survival(to a degree), having the option to(in low-mid tier content) go with whatever applies is because classes have the ability to dodge. Every single one of these things applies to, say, Tera, which is a trinity action combat MMO.

> > >

> > > PS: How bad a healer do you have to be for people to blame you even for stuff that had nothing to do with you? Always amazes me.

> >

> > You don't have to be bad at all, you just have to be a healer, and that DPS that zergs 2 rooms ahead will be crying all night about how that healer let them die. In this era of "elite players", it's always someone else's fault when one of them dies, even if they pull the classic Leroy Jenkins thing and wipe the entire party.

> >

> > The primary advantage that I've noticed so far is that there are no real queue times, if there's a group for what you want to run, you join it, and go. Compare this to ESO, where I waited for 4 hours, well, I did other things while I was in the queue for 4 hours, and never did get a group to pop.

>

> I've been a healer for 10 years. I can't even think of a reason for you to be 2 rooms behind the dps doing nothing. And whenever anyone pulled a Leroy Jenkins, the rest of the party did not turn to me and say "why didn't you stop him?" as they were too busy yelling at the guy who actually did it. I've actually seen people kick a guy who was yelling at me when I had messed up because they were too afraid I'll pull an "entitled healer" move on them. As a healer, you have to be so absurdly bad and bring absolutely no value to the party for every single one of them to jump on you and risk you throwing a tantrum and ruining their run. Even healers so are kinda bad but still bring something to the table don't get abused often because people would rather suck it up and finish the run than have to look for another healer. Again , 10 years as a healer main and I've spent some time moonlighting as a mage to help out newbie healers. Never, not even once, did I see an entire party rage at a healer for no reason. There are two types of healers who perpetuate the "blame the healer" meme: bad healers who don't even realise they messed up and good healers whose egos don't allow them to admit they deserved it.

 

I've been playing MMOs and other online games for 20 years, and I've seen lots of DPS that "don't need the party and zerg ahead" only to find they did need the party. Hell, I've seen it as recently as swtor. In fact, it's my favorite example of "having all the right gear doesn't mean you know how to play", since a DPS spent the entire time we were forming a raid group crying about the healer's HP, and then, once we got going, didn't move out of the danger zone, died, and promptly raged that nobody could save 'em. The response, of course, is that you can't heal stupid.

 

This "whole group" thing is a new goalpost for my post, I merely pointed out that it can, and does happen, frequently. In fact, in trying to say something akin to "nuh uh", you demonstrated an example of the very thing I'm talking about. In the example I gave in the post you quoted, I spoke of a DPS zerging 2 rooms ahead. Now, as a healer with 10 years experience, I'd expect that you'd know what that meant. However, based on your response, you evidently missed something, so, for clarity, the healer in the example wasn't two rooms behind. The healer was with the rest of the party, wondering what the hell that rogue dps was up to, which turned out to be dying, in the example given, and then blaming the healer, instead of owning their mistake.

[Scipion.7548]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

>

> Which you can't do without controlling aggro.

 

In WoW mostly yes. But instead we could have some more mechanics permitting you to take directly damage from others, like "Save Yourself" or "Protect Me!".

 

> @"marelooke.9708" said:

> And the reason for that is because in ("ancient") WoW you generally had one endgame raid ready character per expansion (and most people stuck with that through multiple expansions). Fully gearing a second one (while also keeping the other at max gear level) was pretty much utter insanity, let alone more (people were also a lot more attached to a long term "main" character for other reasons.

 

All you said is totally true. And yes it is too easy to switch characters on WoW now and it is far worse on GW2. But I don't think Anet will change it's mind.

[TWMagimay.9057]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > > @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > > > All the things listed here as pros for no-trinity are actually due to the action combat. Picking up the slack, coping with others dying, soloing content, being responsible for your own survival(to a degree), having the option to(in low-mid tier content) go with whatever applies is because classes have the ability to dodge. Every single one of these things applies to, say, Tera, which is a trinity action combat MMO.

> > > >

> > > > PS: How bad a healer do you have to be for people to blame you even for stuff that had nothing to do with you? Always amazes me.

> > >

> > > You don't have to be bad at all, you just have to be a healer, and that DPS that zergs 2 rooms ahead will be crying all night about how that healer let them die. In this era of "elite players", it's always someone else's fault when one of them dies, even if they pull the classic Leroy Jenkins thing and wipe the entire party.

> > >

> > > The primary advantage that I've noticed so far is that there are no real queue times, if there's a group for what you want to run, you join it, and go. Compare this to ESO, where I waited for 4 hours, well, I did other things while I was in the queue for 4 hours, and never did get a group to pop.

> >

> > I've been a healer for 10 years. I can't even think of a reason for you to be 2 rooms behind the dps doing nothing. And whenever anyone pulled a Leroy Jenkins, the rest of the party did not turn to me and say "why didn't you stop him?" as they were too busy yelling at the guy who actually did it. I've actually seen people kick a guy who was yelling at me when I had messed up because they were too afraid I'll pull an "entitled healer" move on them. As a healer, you have to be so absurdly bad and bring absolutely no value to the party for every single one of them to jump on you and risk you throwing a tantrum and ruining their run. Even healers so are kinda bad but still bring something to the table don't get abused often because people would rather suck it up and finish the run than have to look for another healer. Again , 10 years as a healer main and I've spent some time moonlighting as a mage to help out newbie healers. Never, not even once, did I see an entire party rage at a healer for no reason. There are two types of healers who perpetuate the "blame the healer" meme: bad healers who don't even realise they messed up and good healers whose egos don't allow them to admit they deserved it.

>

> I've been playing MMOs and other online games for 20 years, and I've seen lots of DPS that "don't need the party and zerg ahead" only to find they did need the party. Hell, I've seen it as recently as swtor. In fact, it's my favorite example of "having all the right gear doesn't mean you know how to play", since a DPS spent the entire time we were forming a raid group crying about the healer's HP, and then, once we got going, didn't move out of the danger zone, died, and promptly raged that nobody could save 'em. The response, of course, is that you can't heal stupid.

>

> This "whole group" thing is a new goalpost for my post, I merely pointed out that it can, and does happen, frequently. In fact, in trying to say something akin to "nuh uh", you demonstrated an example of the very thing I'm talking about. In the example I gave in the post you quoted, I spoke of a DPS zerging 2 rooms ahead. Now, as a healer with 10 years experience, I'd expect that you'd know what that meant. However, based on your response, you evidently missed something, so, for clarity, the healer in the example wasn't two rooms behind. The healer was with the rest of the party, wondering what the hell that rogue dps was up to, which turned out to be dying, in the example given, and then blaming the healer, instead of owning their mistake.

 

It's not all that frequent but, yes, idiots happen. My experience is that healers will maintain the notion that it's very frequent and it's the entire party yelling at them while they are the only one in it who's not doing stupid things(that is usually how the mandatory "healers are always blamed" goes every week on the forum of a trinity MMO). Because the one idiot thing affects everyone. S/He will blame the healer then s/he will blame the tank then s/he will blame the dps. Saying it's exclusively directed at healers is just as disingenuous as saying healers get constantly blamed for things that aren't their fault, by everyone. Your example has happened to me and the response would almost always come from the tank in the form of "You see me standing here? Yes? Then wtf are YOU doing all the way over there?", occasionally it'll be a few choice words from the top dog dps. If, at that point, you still feel blamed and take the words of somebody that's seen as an idiot by the entire party to heart, well, really, you shouldn't. Half the time that guy will blame the tank for being too slow or too chicken yet tanks don't complain about "blame the tank" but as soon as somebody dares say anything to the healer, it's the end of the world, a forum topic must be made, that HiveLeader video must be linked and we all must come together to pat each other on the back and tell each other how everyone else is bad and we are gods.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > > > @"TWMagimay.9057" said:

> > > > > All the things listed here as pros for no-trinity are actually due to the action combat. Picking up the slack, coping with others dying, soloing content, being responsible for your own survival(to a degree), having the option to(in low-mid tier content) go with whatever applies is because classes have the ability to dodge. Every single one of these things applies to, say, Tera, which is a trinity action combat MMO.

> > > > >

> > > > > PS: How bad a healer do you have to be for people to blame you even for stuff that had nothing to do with you? Always amazes me.

> > > >

> > > > You don't have to be bad at all, you just have to be a healer, and that DPS that zergs 2 rooms ahead will be crying all night about how that healer let them die. In this era of "elite players", it's always someone else's fault when one of them dies, even if they pull the classic Leroy Jenkins thing and wipe the entire party.

> > > >

> > > > The primary advantage that I've noticed so far is that there are no real queue times, if there's a group for what you want to run, you join it, and go. Compare this to ESO, where I waited for 4 hours, well, I did other things while I was in the queue for 4 hours, and never did get a group to pop.

> > >

> > > I've been a healer for 10 years. I can't even think of a reason for you to be 2 rooms behind the dps doing nothing. And whenever anyone pulled a Leroy Jenkins, the rest of the party did not turn to me and say "why didn't you stop him?" as they were too busy yelling at the guy who actually did it. I've actually seen people kick a guy who was yelling at me when I had messed up because they were too afraid I'll pull an "entitled healer" move on them. As a healer, you have to be so absurdly bad and bring absolutely no value to the party for every single one of them to jump on you and risk you throwing a tantrum and ruining their run. Even healers so are kinda bad but still bring something to the table don't get abused often because people would rather suck it up and finish the run than have to look for another healer. Again , 10 years as a healer main and I've spent some time moonlighting as a mage to help out newbie healers. Never, not even once, did I see an entire party rage at a healer for no reason. There are two types of healers who perpetuate the "blame the healer" meme: bad healers who don't even realise they messed up and good healers whose egos don't allow them to admit they deserved it.

> >

> > I've been playing MMOs and other online games for 20 years, and I've seen lots of DPS that "don't need the party and zerg ahead" only to find they did need the party. Hell, I've seen it as recently as swtor. In fact, it's my favorite example of "having all the right gear doesn't mean you know how to play", since a DPS spent the entire time we were forming a raid group crying about the healer's HP, and then, once we got going, didn't move out of the danger zone, died, and promptly raged that nobody could save 'em. The response, of course, is that you can't heal stupid.

> >

> > This "whole group" thing is a new goalpost for my post, I merely pointed out that it can, and does happen, frequently. In fact, in trying to say something akin to "nuh uh", you demonstrated an example of the very thing I'm talking about. In the example I gave in the post you quoted, I spoke of a DPS zerging 2 rooms ahead. Now, as a healer with 10 years experience, I'd expect that you'd know what that meant. However, based on your response, you evidently missed something, so, for clarity, the healer in the example wasn't two rooms behind. The healer was with the rest of the party, wondering what the hell that rogue dps was up to, which turned out to be dying, in the example given, and then blaming the healer, instead of owning their mistake.

>

> It's not all that frequent but, yes, idiots happen. My experience is that healers will maintain the notion that it's very frequent and it's the entire party yelling at them while they are the only one in it who's not doing stupid things(that is usually how the mandatory "healers are always blamed" goes every week on the forum of a trinity MMO). Because the one idiot thing affects everyone. S/He will blame the healer then s/he will blame the tank then s/he will blame the dps. Saying it's exclusively directed at healers is just as disingenuous as saying healers get constantly blamed for things that aren't their fault, by everyone. Your example has happened to me and the response would almost always come from the tank in the form of "You see me standing here? Yes? Then kitten are YOU doing all the way over there?", occasionally it'll be a few choice words from the top dog dps. If, at that point, you still feel blamed and take the words of somebody that's seen as an idiot by the entire party to heart, well, really, you shouldn't. Half the time that guy will blame the tank for being too slow or too chicken yet tanks don't complain about "blame the tank" but as soon as somebody dares say anything to the healer, it's the end of the world, a forum topic must be made, that HiveLeader video must be linked and we all must come together to pat each other on the back and tell each other how everyone else is bad and we are gods.

 

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

 

[Derenek.8931]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > Hey all,

> > I don't think I've played any other mmo without a holy trinity. I was wondering what you guys like/dislike about it, as well as your answers to the following questions:

> > Do you think adding support classes was a good thing?

> > How would you improve on the no Trinity concept?

> > Anywho thanks in advance, and I look forward to reading your responses.

>

> The holy trinity is a thing of the past that was created in order to force players to group up. Making players feel useless alone without their dedicated healers and dedicated tanks. Guild Wars 1 didn't have a holy trinity either (lacking proper threat management) and all the content could be beaten by a huge variety of builds, even without an "actual" healer, same as in gw2. The question for games without a trinity is what to replace it with, and one answer is clear/defined roles. Requiring players to perform certain roles in an encounter is not the same as having a holy trinity. Having the need for multiple roles is a good thing, especially if those roles can be filled by a variety of different builds.

 

lol, yeah try pulling most gw1 missions without a monk... see how far you get

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Derenek.8931" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > Hey all,

> > > I don't think I've played any other mmo without a holy trinity. I was wondering what you guys like/dislike about it, as well as your answers to the following questions:

> > > Do you think adding support classes was a good thing?

> > > How would you improve on the no Trinity concept?

> > > Anywho thanks in advance, and I look forward to reading your responses.

> >

> > The holy trinity is a thing of the past that was created in order to force players to group up. Making players feel useless alone without their dedicated healers and dedicated tanks. Guild Wars 1 didn't have a holy trinity either (lacking proper threat management) and all the content could be beaten by a huge variety of builds, even without an "actual" healer, same as in gw2. The question for games without a trinity is what to replace it with, and one answer is clear/defined roles. Requiring players to perform certain roles in an encounter is not the same as having a holy trinity. Having the need for multiple roles is a good thing, especially if those roles can be filled by a variety of different builds.

>

> lol, yeah try pulling most gw1 missions without a monk... see how far you get

 

Don't know if they are still around, but there used to be videos of entire parties of Warriors (admittedly monk secondary) completing missions with just self heal to get them through. For that matter I've soloed some (both in normal and hard mode).

[Ringlin.1863]

I enjoyed the absence of the Holy Trinity in City of Heroes, and I like it here.

 

Maybe that's because my experience healing was often like in the video RoberttheBard posted above, or maybe it's just nice to have a different approach to the game. In my limited time here (been playing only a month), it seems like there's room for many different playstyles whether solo in groups, at least pre-endgame.

[Rukia.4802]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> I liked it being gone and was extremely disappointed to see them fall back on it when it came to Raids.

 

Tank hardly exist in GW2 even in raids, this xpac is like a test for trinity, it is half implemented and very class-specific. Ofc you have 1 healer.. ranger. Then some support maybe if that, the rest is usual mongoloid dps with your autoattack rotations and a couple buttons thrown in.

[Scipion.7548]

It seems a lot of former GW1 players have a bad experience with the trinity because there was only one healer class, the monk, I am right ? I didn't played GW1 but if this was the case, trinity was very poorly impleted. Like today in GW2 with the druid ...