Your thoughts on the Holy Trinity abscence

[Rajani Isa.6294]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > I've always hated the trinity in every game. It's always felt contrived and unheroic to me. As I've often said, Lord of the Rings would have been far more boring if Boromir were tanking, Gandalf was healing him and no one ever went after the Hobbits, Gimle, Aragorn or Legolas. It's just very artificial.

> > >

> > > I prefer this. It doesn't mean there's no team work. It means there's different team work...but it's more reactive and less set in stone. If someone falls, generally someone else can pick up the slack. In most games, if your tank or healer go, that's it.

> >

> > Should have tried City of Heroes... :)

>

> Heh, but even CoH had a trinity! Empaths were healers, Ice Armor was the best tank spec and Blappers were huge DPS.

>

>

 

And an Empath being a healer wasn't even using a 1/2 their abilities (yes, it was the "healer" powerset, but it Defenders had it paired with a blast set, controllers with a control set, and once you started using the buffs right, little need for the heals). I was part of an all empathy SG that could steamroll some of the hardest non-raid content. Not sure if we ever got enough together to try the raid stuff.

 

Hell, one of the support sets had a nuke! (That you used on your allies' corpses before reviving them with a rez that buffed them!).

 

You could trinity in the game if you wanted to, but it was hardly necessary.

 

Game came out about 6 months before WoW as far as timing. Actually couldn't get into WoW because of it - at the end of the tutorial they gave you a minor speed boost power that was about equal to the level 40 or so mounts in WoW. Nevermind when you were a little higher level in CoH and had travel powers. Superspeed Dark Armor FOREVER! (I killed more of my teammates not realizing I had full stealth in that build...)

[Rajani Isa.6294]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > I've always hated the trinity in every game. It's always felt contrived and unheroic to me. As I've often said, Lord of the Rings would have been far more boring if Boromir were tanking, Gandalf was healing him and no one ever went after the Hobbits, Gimle, Aragorn or Legolas. It's just very artificial.

> > > >

> > > > I prefer this. It doesn't mean there's no team work. It means there's different team work...but it's more reactive and less set in stone. If someone falls, generally someone else can pick up the slack. In most games, if your tank or healer go, that's it.

> > >

> > > Should have tried City of Heroes... :)

> >

> > Never heard of it ;)

>

> It was a an MMO that was released in the same generation as EQ2 and WoW, you basically designed a Super Hero with unique abilities but I've heard the real appeal was in costume design, they had a close knit community and were reasonably successful until one day NCSoft decided they were not making enough money and shut down the game, Champions Online had been released and I think they wanted every one to play that game to justify the development money spent, every one avoided Champions Online because it wasn't as feature rich as Heores And people had spent years on their mains. This would be like NCSoft shutting down GW1 to get people to play GW2 if it were struggling.

 

Yeah, the "gear" was totally separate from the appearance. She does Rift now, but here's an[ "Avatar" (from The Guild) music video done with CoH footage.](

" "Avatar" (from The Guild) music video done with CoH footage.")

 

And yes, that is a teabag emote at :55. The guy who was the main animator for the game in it's later half of it's life mentioned the first time he ever talked to his boss was to clarify having "Animate tea bag emote" as his first project.

[Rajani Isa.6294]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> (Scrapperlock anyone?).

 

Dark Armor scrapper super speed - my defense power gave me half stealth, and super speed finished it off. With my soul-sucking self rez, I was fine, but I killed more pugger team mates that way who would follow me and not half complete stealth.

 

Also a fun bit - one of the damage types in the game (Psionic) - for a long time the best tank for it was the melee-dps centered scrappers as they had the only resistance armor against it!

 

[HyperLooser.2698]

Overall it doesn't matter, cuz in the end all that matters is DPS aka damage is everything META controls all no matter what, but this is player aka human problem, devs can't really do anything about it, other than completely force some x retarded stuff, which just makes it worse in a different way. Competitiveness and the ideological desire to control everything, humans ruin everything these days, hence why all these PvP games these days are so popular. Won't be long till GW2 is consumed completely by it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > Besides the Faux Holy trinity we currently have, I am not sure what to think on it. On the one hand, I would prefer that everyone is a jack of all trades being able to heal and tank for themselves without relying on others. On the flip side, I can see how it is easier to balance for developers if they have the Holy Trinity system. I am kind of at a toss up for the whole thing.

> >

> > Here's why this is worse: it lacks gameplay interaction between characters. Under this paradigm, you don't play *with* other players, you play *next* to other players. And that's wasted potential. Specializing, taking different roles in combat, makes fighting so much more fun and engaging because it allows for actual teamplay.

>

> Thing is, you can have cooperative gameplay in trinity-less games, where people are actually playing together and have to coordinate stuff instead of playing next to each other. Requirement is decent game-design and class-balancing though and here's the problem GW2 really suffers from: We have Chrono and Druid who have literally everything - Tank, Heal, nearly every Support-option this game offers, united in two "specializations" - who have become mandatory for 4 of 10 raid-slots. These "specializations" do the bulk of the work. Then you have the power-creep. Both lead to spank 'n tank gameplay in most raid-encounters making it feel like you're actually playing next to each other instead of together. Then there's also the issue that you don't have any hard CDs in GW2 leading to people not coordinating CDs. I mean, just look at raid-encounters: people don't want to do the actual mechanics, they want to skip them, since the game allows it. MMORPGs get easier and easier nowadays; you don't even have to talk with each other anymore per TS or Discord for "hardcore"-content.

 

I disagree. First off, coordinating stuff can be fun, but it requires communication. In a fast-paced action, you have to resort to voice communication, because there is simply not enough time to communicate properly in chat. That's highly unrealistic in a MMO. And is why we don't need to coordinate cooldowns in this game - it would only be doable in ts/discord group and it would feel awful in pugs. You can't expect people to use ts for daily fractals and you shouldn't ruin the daily gaming experience of so many players just because of some random mechanic. Note that this type of coordination **does** exist in the game, exactly in the place where it belongs - raids. There are a lot of mechanics which require coordinated execution - from the simple standing in greens on VG, through Sabetha's bombs, all the way to activating the ethereal seals on Dhuum's last phase.

 

And speaking of raids, you're **very** wrong there. What you say only applies to encounters when nobody is dealing with actual mechanics like normal-mode MO (and even there you can have moments of teamplay). Most of the encounters however throw mechanics at your face and require you to be an efficient team. And skipping mechanics is only possible when you're a very efficient team. Sure, we do it. Because it feels great to know everyone did their jobs well and the team worked so good that we were able to control the flow of the encounter instead of letting it fall apart in a spiral of struggle and chaos.

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > > > Besides the Faux Holy trinity we currently have, I am not sure what to think on it. On the one hand, I would prefer that everyone is a jack of all trades being able to heal and tank for themselves without relying on others. On the flip side, I can see how it is easier to balance for developers if they have the Holy Trinity system. I am kind of at a toss up for the whole thing.

> > >

> > > Here's why this is worse: it lacks gameplay interaction between characters. Under this paradigm, you don't play *with* other players, you play *next* to other players. And that's wasted potential. Specializing, taking different roles in combat, makes fighting so much more fun and engaging because it allows for actual teamplay.

> >

> > Thing is, you can have cooperative gameplay in trinity-less games, where people are actually playing together and have to coordinate stuff instead of playing next to each other. Requirement is decent game-design and class-balancing though and here's the problem GW2 really suffers from: We have Chrono and Druid who have literally everything - Tank, Heal, nearly every Support-option this game offers, united in two "specializations" - who have become mandatory for 4 of 10 raid-slots. These "specializations" do the bulk of the work. Then you have the power-creep. Both lead to spank 'n tank gameplay in most raid-encounters making it feel like you're actually playing next to each other instead of together. Then there's also the issue that you don't have any hard CDs in GW2 leading to people not coordinating CDs. I mean, just look at raid-encounters: people don't want to do the actual mechanics, they want to skip them, since the game allows it. MMORPGs get easier and easier nowadays; you don't even have to talk with each other anymore per TS or Discord for "hardcore"-content.

>

> I disagree. First off, coordinating stuff can be fun, but it requires communication. In a fast-paced action, you have to resort to voice communication, because there is simply not enough time to communicate properly in chat. That's highly unrealistic in a MMO. And is why we don't need to coordinate cooldowns in this game - it would only be doable in ts/discord group and it would feel awful in pugs. You can't expect people to use ts for daily fractals and you shouldn't ruin the daily gaming experience of so many players just because of some random mechanic. Note that this type of coordination **does** exist in the game, exactly in the place where it belongs - raids. There are a lot of mechanics which require coordinated execution - from the simple standing in greens on VG, through Sabetha's bombs, all the way to activating the ethereal seals on Dhuum's last phase.

>

> And speaking of raids, you're **very** wrong there. What you say only applies to encounters when nobody is dealing with actual mechanics like normal-mode MO (and even there you can have moments of teamplay). Most of the encounters however throw mechanics at your face and require you to be an efficient team. And skipping mechanics is only possible when you're a very efficient team. Sure, we do it. Because it feels great to know everyone did their jobs well and the team worked so good that we were able to control the flow of the encounter instead of letting it fall apart in a spiral of struggle and chaos.

>

 

* I don't get why people consider vocal communication to be a bad thing. We're playing a MMORPG, where socialization is one of the main selling-points of the genre. Has it to do with MMORPGs steadily catering to the Single-Player-/Coop-audience? Vocal communication is actually pretty standard in some of the MMORPGs I played during the last ten years. It makes stuff easier and leads to people communicating far more friendly with each other than they would if they were just texting.

* With sPvP being the exception, there are no PUGs in GW2. People always mistake Premades build through the LFG for PUGs, when they in fact aren't PUGs. PUGs are randomly thrown together people by some sort of matchmaking-mechanism. Nonetheless, you can also coordinate the use of certain CDs in advance per chat. Or do you think people in more difficult MMORPGs use TS/Discord all the time? That's an exaggeration on your part.

* On most raid-encounters, coordination is rather rudimentary in nature and GW2 gets away with it easily since there is no punishment for failure like in other MMORPGs, where you at least lose certain CDs. Sure, stuff with extra-tasks like Sabetha are a bit annoying in that regard, but VG is a really bad example since people just want to skip mechanics by outhealing greens.

* Thing is, it really feels like people don't want to deal with mechanics anyway. Just look at your random-Gorse-group, which will almost always disband, when people have to deal with mechanics, if they don't have enough dps to skip them.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> * Thing is, it really feels like people don't want to deal with mechanics anyway. Just look at your random-Gorse-group, which will almost always disband, when people have to deal with mechanics, if they don't have enough dps to skip them.

 

There should never be a way to skip mechanics. This is biggest fail in GW2 raid design.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> * I don't get why people consider vocal communication to be a bad thing. We're playing a MMORPG, where socialization is one of the main selling-points of the genre. Has it to do with MMORPGs steadily catering to the Single-Player-/Coop-audience? Vocal communication is actually pretty standard in some of the MMORPGs I played during the last ten years. It makes stuff easier and leads to people communicating far more friendly with each other than they would if they were just texting.

I didn't say it's a bad thing. I said it is unrealistic to expect it for the majority of the content.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> * With sPvP being the exception, there are no PUGs in GW2. People always mistake Premades build through the LFG for PUGs, when they in fact aren't PUGs. PUGs are randomly thrown together people by some sort of matchmaking-mechanism. Nonetheless, you can also coordinate the use of certain CDs in advance per chat. Or do you think people in more difficult MMORPGs use TS/Discord all the time? That's an exaggeration on your part.

That's terminology. Grouping together with random players makes it just as unrealistic to use voice comm as automatching.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> * On most raid-encounters, coordination is rather rudimentary in nature and GW2 gets away with it easily since there is no punishment for failure like in other MMORPGs, where you at least lose certain CDs. Sure, stuff with extra-tasks like Sabetha are a bit annoying in that regard, but VG is a really bad example since people just want to skip mechanics by outhealing greens.

The question isn't "is coordination complex", the question is "is the encounter fun". Which raid encounters are. Also, please tell me more about no punishment for failure. Failing a green on Dhuum results in immediate wipe. Failing the CC on Desmina, KC, Xera result in wipes. And again, skipping mechanics isn't a bad thing. It's just a different way of cooperation. It's still teamwork, it's still about being efficient. There's nothing wrong with that. To the contrary, it actually puts higher requirements on the team, which leads to greater satisfaction from pulling it off.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> * Thing is, it really feels like people don't want to deal with mechanics anyway. Just look at your random-Gorse-group, which will almost always disband, when people have to deal with mechanics, if they don't have enough dps to skip them.

 

See above. And frankly, if your group doesn't have the dps to do no-updraft Gorse, it is pretty terrible and the most sensible thing is to leave it.

[Abakk.9176]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> Hey all,

> I don't think I've played any other mmo without a holy trinity. I was wondering what you guys like/dislike about it, as well as your answers to the following questions:

> Do you think adding support classes was a good thing?

> How would you improve on the no Trinity concept?

> Anywho thanks in advance, and I look forward to reading your responses.

 

I love beeing able to support players in events or even just outside 'in the wilds' so to speak.

 

I really enjoy seeing my aegis on them and the green healing numbers and beeing able to resurect them when downed. I also love that i can still do reasonable damage during all that and cast weakness and vulnerability on our enemies.

 

People can still chose to go for traditional tank/healer/dps when they chose to.

 

I love this sandbox-ish approach because it gives much choice to individual players. There are a lot of different people with different playstyles. And among them there are those that 'glue' everything together by beeing a support class during battles.

 

We all get to play how we prefer it and combined we can down the greatest and baddest World Bosses around.

 

There is no better way of playing an MMORPG than with this support for diversity, in my opinion.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> Hey all,

> I don't think I've played any other mmo without a holy trinity. I was wondering what you guys like/dislike about it, as well as your answers to the following questions:

> Do you think adding support classes was a good thing?

> How would you improve on the no Trinity concept?

> Anywho thanks in advance, and I look forward to reading your responses.

 

The holy trinity is a thing of the past that was created in order to force players to group up. Making players feel useless alone without their dedicated healers and dedicated tanks. Guild Wars 1 didn't have a holy trinity either (lacking proper threat management) and all the content could be beaten by a huge variety of builds, even without an "actual" healer, same as in gw2. The question for games without a trinity is what to replace it with, and one answer is clear/defined roles. Requiring players to perform certain roles in an encounter is not the same as having a holy trinity. Having the need for multiple roles is a good thing, especially if those roles can be filled by a variety of different builds.

[InsaneQR.7412]

I like how it works now actually. I like that every profession has the capabbility to fulfill every role or atleast we can expect that every role can be filled with current E-Specs and future ones.

Its a flexible system and does not restrict in class, only in spec.

Its probably a hell to balance but it works.

I also like the specific different tank mechanics different bosses have. This makes gameplay more dynamic and challenging.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > * I don't get why people consider vocal communication to be a bad thing. We're playing a MMORPG, where socialization is one of the main selling-points of the genre. Has it to do with MMORPGs steadily catering to the Single-Player-/Coop-audience? Vocal communication is actually pretty standard in some of the MMORPGs I played during the last ten years. It makes stuff easier and leads to people communicating far more friendly with each other than they would if they were just texting.

> I didn't say it's a bad thing. I said it is unrealistic to expect it for the majority of the content.

 

Which majoritiy? Raids are supposed to be this games pinnacle of PvE-content. Is it that unrealistic to expect people to use TS/Discord for that kind of content like its pretty much standard in other MMORPGs? Kinda leads to me thinking that raids really aren't as difficult as some people say them to be (well, they aren't...).

>

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > * With sPvP being the exception, there are no PUGs in GW2. People always mistake Premades build through the LFG for PUGs, when they in fact aren't PUGs. PUGs are randomly thrown together people by some sort of matchmaking-mechanism. Nonetheless, you can also coordinate the use of certain CDs in advance per chat. Or do you think people in more difficult MMORPGs use TS/Discord all the time? That's an exaggeration on your part.

> That's terminology. Grouping together with random players makes it just as unrealistic to use voice comm as automatching.

 

Again, it isn't. It's pretty standard in other and especially older MMORPGs, if you want to do the content. MMORPG-communities in general just have gotten far more casual over the last decade because games get easier and easier/borderline single-player-content to appeal to a larger audience for the sake of making more money.

>

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > * On most raid-encounters, coordination is rather rudimentary in nature and GW2 gets away with it easily since there is no punishment for failure like in other MMORPGs, where you at least lose certain CDs. Sure, stuff with extra-tasks like Sabetha are a bit annoying in that regard, but VG is a really bad example since people just want to skip mechanics by outhealing greens.

> The question isn't "is coordination complex", the question is "is the encounter fun". Which raid encounters are. Also, please tell me more about no punishment for failure. Failing a green on Dhuum results in immediate wipe. Failing the CC on Desmina, KC, Xera result in wipes. And again, skipping mechanics isn't a bad thing. It's just a different way of cooperation. It's still teamwork, it's still about being efficient. There's nothing wrong with that. To the contrary, it actually puts higher requirements on the team, which leads to greater satisfaction from pulling it off.

 

Yeah, encounters are fun, even though they aren't very complex. What I mean with punishment for failure isn't the punishment for failing certain mechanics, but for failing the encounter as such. In that regard, there is no punishment at all in GW2 where in other games, you at the very least lose some important CDs making the second attempt more challenging. In GW2, you don't really have CDs to begin with and can simply reset them by /gg-abuse.

 

Skipping mechanics is a bad thing if it is too easy and if it trivializes content too far (which it does in GW2). There shouldn't be stuff like outhealing at VG or comparable stuff. At the very least, mass-distortion isn't a thing anymore. That really was atrocious game-design.

>

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > * Thing is, it really feels like people don't want to deal with mechanics anyway. Just look at your random-Gorse-group, which will almost always disband, when people have to deal with mechanics, if they don't have enough dps to skip them.

>

> See above. And frankly, if your group doesn't have the dps to do no-updraft Gorse, it is pretty terrible and the most sensible thing is to leave it.

 

Sadly, I'm only playing the game for half a year now. I have a job and I'm studying, so I have problems getting in raid-guilds, thus I'm at the mercy of the LFG and parties without a bazillion LI/KP-requirements. It's quite funny though that you think that doing a boss the way its supposed to be done is a bad thing. That stance will - at least indirectly - lead to an excuse for further power creep. It also comes down again to people who don't want to do deal with mechanics, doesn't it?

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > * I don't get why people consider vocal communication to be a bad thing. We're playing a MMORPG, where socialization is one of the main selling-points of the genre. Has it to do with MMORPGs steadily catering to the Single-Player-/Coop-audience? Vocal communication is actually pretty standard in some of the MMORPGs I played during the last ten years. It makes stuff easier and leads to people communicating far more friendly with each other than they would if they were just texting.

> > I didn't say it's a bad thing. I said it is unrealistic to expect it for the majority of the content.

>

> Which majoritiy? Raids are supposed to be this games pinnacle of PvE-content. Is it that unrealistic to expect people to use TS/Discord for that kind of content like its pretty much standard in other MMORPGs? Kinda leads to me thinking that raids really aren't as difficult as some people say them to be (well, they aren't...).

 

The vast majority. Practically the only place where you need voice comm is on the highest difficulties (fractal cms and raids), and it is only really needed when the players are learning the encounter. Once you're experienced, you can manage well enough without it.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> >

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > * With sPvP being the exception, there are no PUGs in GW2. People always mistake Premades build through the LFG for PUGs, when they in fact aren't PUGs. PUGs are randomly thrown together people by some sort of matchmaking-mechanism. Nonetheless, you can also coordinate the use of certain CDs in advance per chat. Or do you think people in more difficult MMORPGs use TS/Discord all the time? That's an exaggeration on your part.

> > That's terminology. Grouping together with random players makes it just as unrealistic to use voice comm as automatching.

>

> Again, it isn't. It's pretty standard in other and especially older MMORPGs, if you want to do the content. MMORPG-communities in general just have gotten far more casual over the last decade because games get easier and easier/borderline single-player-content to appeal to a larger audience for the sake of making more money.

 

Point me 3 MMOs where it is **standard** to use voice comm for doing daily content.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> >

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > * On most raid-encounters, coordination is rather rudimentary in nature and GW2 gets away with it easily since there is no punishment for failure like in other MMORPGs, where you at least lose certain CDs. Sure, stuff with extra-tasks like Sabetha are a bit annoying in that regard, but VG is a really bad example since people just want to skip mechanics by outhealing greens.

> > The question isn't "is coordination complex", the question is "is the encounter fun". Which raid encounters are. Also, please tell me more about no punishment for failure. Failing a green on Dhuum results in immediate wipe. Failing the CC on Desmina, KC, Xera result in wipes. And again, skipping mechanics isn't a bad thing. It's just a different way of cooperation. It's still teamwork, it's still about being efficient. There's nothing wrong with that. To the contrary, it actually puts higher requirements on the team, which leads to greater satisfaction from pulling it off.

>

> Yeah, encounters are fun, even though they aren't very complex. What I mean with punishment for failure isn't the punishment for failing certain mechanics, but for failing the encounter as such. In that regard, there is no punishment at all in GW2 where in other games, you at the very least lose some important CDs making the second attempt more challenging. In GW2, you don't really have CDs to begin with and can simply reset them by /gg-abuse.

 

That's just bad game design. No, let me rephrase that - it is **awful** game design. "You find the content too hard and fail? Very well then, let's make it **harder**." Because logic.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Skipping mechanics is a bad thing if it is too easy and if it trivializes content too far (which it does in GW2). There shouldn't be stuff like outhealing at VG or comparable stuff. At the very least, mass-distortion isn't a thing anymore. That really was atrocious game-design.

 

It's raising the stakes basically. It's easier when done right, but it amplifies the consequences of mistakes. Like, if you lack the dps on Gorse and you insist on skipping the updrafts you simply wipe. It's fine. Distortion was a bit too much indeed.

 

 

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> >

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > * Thing is, it really feels like people don't want to deal with mechanics anyway. Just look at your random-Gorse-group, which will almost always disband, when people have to deal with mechanics, if they don't have enough dps to skip them.

> >

> > See above. And frankly, if your group doesn't have the dps to do no-updraft Gorse, it is pretty terrible and the most sensible thing is to leave it.

>

> Sadly, I'm only playing the game for half a year now. I have a job and I'm studying, so I have problems getting in raid-guilds, thus I'm at the mercy of the LFG and parties without a bazillion LI/KP-requirements. It's quite funny though that you think that doing a boss the way its supposed to be done is a bad thing. That stance will - at least indirectly - lead to an excuse for further power creep. It also comes down again to people who don't want to do deal with mechanics, doesn't it?

>

 

Differences in perspective. I did my fair share of "the way it is supposed to be done Gorse", back when I was making my first steps in raiding. Nowadays? I just have better options and I don't need to subject myself to the risks of inexperienced groups. It's fast and easy to get used to smoother experience, not just in games, and you never want to go back. And I spent a lot of time getting used to said smoother experience. It's unrealistic to expect different from me. :)

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > >

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > * With sPvP being the exception, there are no PUGs in GW2. People always mistake Premades build through the LFG for PUGs, when they in fact aren't PUGs. PUGs are randomly thrown together people by some sort of matchmaking-mechanism. Nonetheless, you can also coordinate the use of certain CDs in advance per chat. Or do you think people in more difficult MMORPGs use TS/Discord all the time? That's an exaggeration on your part.

> > > That's terminology. Grouping together with random players makes it just as unrealistic to use voice comm as automatching.

> >

> > Again, it isn't. It's pretty standard in other and especially older MMORPGs, if you want to do the content. MMORPG-communities in general just have gotten far more casual over the last decade because games get easier and easier/borderline single-player-content to appeal to a larger audience for the sake of making more money.

>

> Point me 3 MMOs where it is **standard** to use voice comm for doing daily content.

 

It's about raids, isn't it? That's weekly content and supposed to be this games pinnacle of PvE. Of course simply daily stuff shouldn't necessarily require TS/Discord.

>

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > >

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > * On most raid-encounters, coordination is rather rudimentary in nature and GW2 gets away with it easily since there is no punishment for failure like in other MMORPGs, where you at least lose certain CDs. Sure, stuff with extra-tasks like Sabetha are a bit annoying in that regard, but VG is a really bad example since people just want to skip mechanics by outhealing greens.

> > > The question isn't "is coordination complex", the question is "is the encounter fun". Which raid encounters are. Also, please tell me more about no punishment for failure. Failing a green on Dhuum results in immediate wipe. Failing the CC on Desmina, KC, Xera result in wipes. And again, skipping mechanics isn't a bad thing. It's just a different way of cooperation. It's still teamwork, it's still about being efficient. There's nothing wrong with that. To the contrary, it actually puts higher requirements on the team, which leads to greater satisfaction from pulling it off.

> >

> > Yeah, encounters are fun, even though they aren't very complex. What I mean with punishment for failure isn't the punishment for failing certain mechanics, but for failing the encounter as such. In that regard, there is no punishment at all in GW2 where in other games, you at the very least lose some important CDs making the second attempt more challenging. In GW2, you don't really have CDs to begin with and can simply reset them by /gg-abuse.

>

> That's just bad game design. No, let me rephrase that - it is **awful** game design. "You find the content too hard and fail? Very well then, let's make it **harder**." Because logic.

 

Maybe, maybe not. At the very least it leads to a certain feeling of seriousness; a certain feeling of danger, which really isn't there if you can just /gg and retry without having any sort of punishment.

 

Well, I guess we wont reach a common point of view anyway and that's fine. Some of my opinions probably aren't really "modern" anymore anyway. Like I said, MMORPGs in general have changed vastly over the last decade/s.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > >

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > * With sPvP being the exception, there are no PUGs in GW2. People always mistake Premades build through the LFG for PUGs, when they in fact aren't PUGs. PUGs are randomly thrown together people by some sort of matchmaking-mechanism. Nonetheless, you can also coordinate the use of certain CDs in advance per chat. Or do you think people in more difficult MMORPGs use TS/Discord all the time? That's an exaggeration on your part.

> > > > That's terminology. Grouping together with random players makes it just as unrealistic to use voice comm as automatching.

> > >

> > > Again, it isn't. It's pretty standard in other and especially older MMORPGs, if you want to do the content. MMORPG-communities in general just have gotten far more casual over the last decade because games get easier and easier/borderline single-player-content to appeal to a larger audience for the sake of making more money.

> >

> > Point me 3 MMOs where it is **standard** to use voice comm for doing daily content.

>

> It's about raids, isn't it? That's weekly content and supposed to be this games pinnacle of PvE. Of course simply daily stuff shouldn't necessarily require TS/Discord.

 

Nope, it's not only about raids. This kind of coordination exists in FotM as well, and these are daily.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> >

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > >

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > * On most raid-encounters, coordination is rather rudimentary in nature and GW2 gets away with it easily since there is no punishment for failure like in other MMORPGs, where you at least lose certain CDs. Sure, stuff with extra-tasks like Sabetha are a bit annoying in that regard, but VG is a really bad example since people just want to skip mechanics by outhealing greens.

> > > > The question isn't "is coordination complex", the question is "is the encounter fun". Which raid encounters are. Also, please tell me more about no punishment for failure. Failing a green on Dhuum results in immediate wipe. Failing the CC on Desmina, KC, Xera result in wipes. And again, skipping mechanics isn't a bad thing. It's just a different way of cooperation. It's still teamwork, it's still about being efficient. There's nothing wrong with that. To the contrary, it actually puts higher requirements on the team, which leads to greater satisfaction from pulling it off.

> > >

> > > Yeah, encounters are fun, even though they aren't very complex. What I mean with punishment for failure isn't the punishment for failing certain mechanics, but for failing the encounter as such. In that regard, there is no punishment at all in GW2 where in other games, you at the very least lose some important CDs making the second attempt more challenging. In GW2, you don't really have CDs to begin with and can simply reset them by /gg-abuse.

> >

> > That's just bad game design. No, let me rephrase that - it is **awful** game design. "You find the content too hard and fail? Very well then, let's make it **harder**." Because logic.

>

> Maybe, maybe not. At the very least it leads to a certain feeling of seriousness; a certain feeling of danger, which really isn't there if you can just /gg and retry without having any sort of punishment.

>

> Well, I guess we wont reach a common point of view anyway and that's fine. Some of my opinions probably aren't really "modern" anymore anyway. Like I said, MMORPGs in general have changed vastly over the last decade/s.

 

What you say about the feeling of danger is true, I just don't like the actual mechanism of achieving it. It seems to me artificial and arbitrary.

But you're right about the changes. RPGs in general became a lot friendlier and I must admit my views are strongly biased toward this newer design.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Locce.8405" said:

> One of my first MMOs was City of Heroes (and City of Villains) which had _some_ trinity elements, but *allowed you to ignore them altogether if you played your cards right.* For example it allowed you to go so hard into buffs/debuffs that it made tanks and healers obsolete and turned everybody on the team into a damage dealer. After that there really was no going back to a game with a hard trinity ever again.

 

Highlighted for purpose.

Choice.

That's what I love so much about GW2's non-trinity approach.

 

It's funny, though. There's at least two tactical games I've been through where I do use a tanking approach, even though it wasn't required, and I specifically picked that up from trinity MMO gameplay. I *chose* to use it for tactical reasons, not because some overpowered brute would have one-shot any of my other characters.

 

 

[Locce.8405]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Locce.8405" said:

> > One of my first MMOs was City of Heroes (and City of Villains) which had _some_ trinity elements, but allowed you to ignore them altogether if you played your cards right. For example it allowed you to go so hard into buffs/debuffs that it made tanks and healers obsolete and turned everybody on the team into a damage dealer. After that there really was no going back to a game with a hard trinity ever again.

> > So far I have found every game with a hard trinity very, very boring and restrictive, because the whole combat dynamic is predetermined by the role your character class has, and playing in a party in these games was the perfect recipe for toxicity, because the more interesting hybrid builds were objectively worse at either job almost all of the time, healers and tanks were revered as demigods (and it often showed in their demeanor), because there were never enough of them, and damage meters turned damage dealing into a competition that completely neglected any other contribution.

> > The "holy" trinity can die in a dumpster fire for all I care.

>

> I remember Tanker Tuesdays where everyone would run their Tanks in groups. With enough tanks, there was no need for controllers, because it didn't matter who the mobs attacked; you didn't need support because tankers were sturdy and if anyone got in trouble, Tanker instincts would kick in and suddenly mobs aren't bugging the troubled; you didn't need dps because there was no rush to defeat mobs (too much wall to wade through).

>

> The same was true for any heavily leaning team (full control teams made mobs into statues, full dps teams obliterated, full support made everyone gods and mobs into ants, full tank teams just meant the team was a moderate woodchiper/lawn mower that grind every encounter underfoot) so teaming just made these dynamics shift around. It's not really a Trinity...a Quadity? But with a weird "overkill" aspect to it. If anything, a balanced team was more difficult as you had to feel out how individuals worked with others (Scrapperlock anyone?).

 

Ah, yes, the good old times. I loved that weird overkill aspect especially since our group was well-known for abusing exactly that if given a chance. At one point we had all logged onto our debuffiest villain team and started the Lord Recluse Strikeforce (for non CoH/CoVers: think of something like a series of hard instanced missions) at the same time as a more traditional team and we had cleared the first mission faster of mobs than they were able to stealth teleport it. On our last team spot we had Kerensky, the German community coordinator (with his Mastermind char), and he said something like: "Ummm... guys... I am not sure if this is _supposed_ to work that way." :lol:

 

Unfortunately almost every game since then had a lot harsher restrictions to what you could do to their mobs, but nevertheless GW2 does quite a good job to capture this feeling that everybody can add his own distinctive flavour to a party mix or try to survive and thrive on his own. Just tonight I joined a small party of Legendary Bounty hunters. Nobody had to log onto a "healer" or "tank", we just threw ourselves into the fray with everything we got and melted those kittens _quickly_, just us four to five randos kicking legendary posteriors. I can not stress enough how much the fact that nobody even knew what any of the others brought to the table added to the fun of it. It was just nice teamwork and using every tool in your arsenal with no thought of holding back to avoid aggro or having to protect one special guy without whom the whole thing fails.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Rajani Isa.6294" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > (Scrapperlock anyone?).

>

> Dark Armor scrapper super speed - my defense power gave me half stealth, and super speed finished it off. With my soul-sucking self rez, I was fine, but I killed more pugger team mates that way who would follow me and not half complete stealth.

>

> Also a fun bit - one of the damage types in the game (Psionic) - for a long time the best tank for it was the melee-dps centered scrappers as they had the only resistance armor against it!

>

 

I didn't have a Dark Armor Scrapper myself, but I did enjoy it on my Stalker who gets free stealth. I did envy how rediculous Spines/DA was, it was basically a walking wave of death that fed on the lifeforce of waves of fodder.

[Aridon.8362]

The holy trinity exists...... In wvw

[Biff.5312]

I like the idea of ditching the 'trinity', but it seems like players want to force those roles into place regardless.

[Zappix.7928]

The trinity hasn't actually gone if you take a look at raid group layouts. You have your spank (DH/Zerker/Tempest), you have your healbot (druid) and you have your tank/group buff bot (chrono). I do miss infusing/protting in HoH though, the simplistic making red bars go up was fun from time to time if you wanted to just click click. But the self reliance in GW2 is important!

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> The holy trinity exists...... In wvw

 

How do you control enemy aggro in wvw?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> I like the idea of ditching the 'trinity', but it seems like players want to force those roles into place regardless.

 

I think it's more like players like to have different roles to play during encounters, they don't need to be trinity. Raids do it almost well. You have tanks, but it's not really about facetanking damage but about positioning boss to execute mechanics. On Sabetha, you have bombs which is also a different role that you can't really narrow to any of trinity options.

 

So yeah, there's nothing wrong with role playing in an mmoRPG. It's on the dev team to figure out roles interesting for players to enjoy playing them. I would love to see some specific roles requiring making use of some of elite spec unique abilities.

[Midiko.2539]

TL;DR (at least beyond a few posts) my take is I prefer no holy trinity, because the ones I've played (not many) with them tend to be you got to build to max your role's thing and forget about versatility. Not that without it you can't end with the same kind of "you're this class so forget about mixing things, you got to be maxing this", but I feel with no set trinity there is more chance to achieve viability for hybrid builds. Not saying a game with Trinity allowing that would be outright impossible, but I think the chances would be minimal.

[Scipion.7548]

I think Anet should create **a clear "soft-trinity"** :

- all classes are Damage/Control(& survival)/Support **hybrids**

- Elite specs should **specialize** the character into one role, but only to some degree

- Also for each classes a core spec should become an elite spec (i.e virtue for guardian), and you have to choose one elite spec

- Core specs are used to go further or not into the main role provided by the elite spec. Each classes has a core spec dedicated to direct damage, one to condi, one to support and one to control & survival.

 

A Guardian (core class with virtue elite spec) would be 40-60% control, 20-30% Damage, 20-30% Support, a DH would be 40-60% damage, 20-30% control, 20-30% support, a Firebrand would be 40-60% support, 20-30% damage, 20-30% control, depending on the chosen core specs.

 

It will be easer to balance and should stop the heresy we know today : according to the meta fanboys **a light armored pink wizard can tank while heavy armored warrior and guardian cannot.**