Elder Dragons(Spoilers)

[Tyson.5160]

 

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > To get back to my original point before I got super side tracked,was that there is no evidence to suggest that Kralkatorrik could create minions from the dead until after Zhaitan’s death. Only after his death do we see the dragon using corpses for minion production.

>

> I ask this: why couldn't Kralkatorrik create minions out of corpses yet Jormag (per EoD and I'm pretty sure the quaggan PS) and Mordremoth (via Pale Tree, indirectly, per interview) could? Why could Kralkatorrik create minions out of random lumps of dirt, but not out of a body?

>

> There's no real logical reason for it. It would simply be "just because" which is a pretty kitten poor explanation tbh.

>

 

I’m aware of the Edge of Destiny reference with the former norn turned icebrood with the pushed in face. Doesn’t prove that Jormag can create minions from the dead. Having a pushed in face doesn’t mean that the norn was deceased. The Quaggans don’t appear to be dead either but appear to being turning into icebrood.

 

Do you have the reference where the Pale Tree made the Sylvari from corpses. I thought she created the Sylvari after observing the humans that were around her as a sapling.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The Mouth of Mordremoth, despite its naming, was Mordremoth's physical body. In the heart [Help the students of Vehtendi Academy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_the_students_of_Vehtendi_Academy), you can tell the cadets that Mordremoth died by "impaling its head on a tree". There's also [an artist statement implying the Mordrem Spitfires were also part of Mordremoth's body](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Ew1Eq).

And Rytlok said Kralkatorik absorbed the power of a god, when he did no such thing. The game makes it clear that the Mouth of Mordremoth was just a psychical construct grown by Mordremoth to fight things, and that the only way to kill it would be to desotyr its mind becuase its "body" was the entire jungle, and not a singular entity like say Zhaitan had. Not to mention, the player was speaking in simple terms to a bunch of literal children who likely wouldn't be able to understand the full nature of how you fought Mordremoth.

 

[Tyson.5160]

 

> And Rytlok said Kralkatorik absorbed the power of a god, when he did no such thing.

 

Ok, so when Balthazar exploded what did Kralkatorrik do? He ate that power. Yes Balthazar did steal this energy from the Elder Dragons and the Bloodstone, however he was able to use this energy to power himself. Look at the combat logs and read all of his abilities. Yes, Kralkatorrik did not get Balthazar original god powers that were taken by the gods, but Kralkatorrik did eat Balthazar’s stolen power. This was the power that Balthazar was using, hence a power from a god.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I’m aware of the Edge of Destiny reference with the former norn turned icebrood with the pushed in face. Doesn’t prove that Jormag can create minions from the dead. Having a pushed in face doesn’t mean that the norn was deceased. The Quaggans don’t appear to be dead either but appear to being turning into icebrood.

>

> Do you have the reference where the Pale Tree made the Sylvari from corpses. I thought she created the Sylvari after observing the humans that were around her as a sapling.

 

It was during [Enraged and Unashamed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enraged_and_Unashamed). There were both standing "Sickly Quaggan"s as well as some laying down, and if I'm remembering correctly, those that were laying down were, in fact, dead and then became icebrood.

 

Looking through interviews again, it's never specified which humans the Pale Tree modeled sylvari off of. Just that they were based on the Pale Tree's interpretation of humans. But there were only 4 living humans around her as a sapling, versus an entire village buried among her roots. It is ultimately no different from what the Blighting Trees do, despite Taimi's insistence that the Blighting Trees could only function because of magic from Zhaitan.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > The Mouth of Mordremoth, despite its naming, was Mordremoth's physical body. In the heart [Help the students of Vehtendi Academy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_the_students_of_Vehtendi_Academy), you can tell the cadets that Mordremoth died by "impaling its head on a tree". There's also [an artist statement implying the Mordrem Spitfires were also part of Mordremoth's body](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Ew1Eq).

> And Rytlok said Kralkatorik absorbed the power of a god, when he did no such thing. The game makes it clear that the Mouth of Mordremoth was just a psychical construct grown by Mordremoth to fight things, and that the only way to kill it would be to desotyr its mind becuase its "body" was the entire jungle, and not a singular entity like say Zhaitan had. Not to mention, the player was speaking in simple terms to a bunch of literal children who likely wouldn't be able to understand the full nature of how you fought Mordremoth.

 

Kralkatorrik very much did. Even if Rytlock left out the clarification that Balthazar was a former god, Kralkatorrik still ate the magic which was in Balthazar, who was for the longest known time a deity and considered to still be one by many even if they were incorrect about it.

 

And in terms of "speaking to children" - they look like young teenagers, and even then, children aren't stupid that "the Pact destroyed its mind" is so much more complicated than "it impaled itself".

 

Besides that, the game makes it clear that destroying the avatar did **not** kill Mordremoth. Otherwise Trahearne would still be alive. Not to mention that the Mouth of Mordremoth speaks with Mordremoth's voice (something nothing else does) and speaks from Mordremoth's perspective.

[Lance Von Alden.8415]

Ok, I am not gonna quote anyone cause there is too much, hehe.

 

Anyway, about Zhaity's hive mind, I think that it was not as powerful as to know, see and hear everything his minions did, but maybe very limited. In the Story we see that Zhaitan's vision-providing minions were only and only his eyes. I think that Zhaitan can get a minion's knowledge prior death/corruption but after that they cannot "hive mind" their new knowledge back to Zhaitan, or maybe is not that easy. You killed many of Zhaitan's minions, yet kept sort of secrecy while doing your missions on Orr (sometimes, hehe).

 

As for corrution of Zhaitan, I don't think he can take thralls outside the dead. Yes, he can make you ill, poisoned or cursed with decay, and then after death you are his thrall. But I haven't seen one Zhaitan's thrall that isn't dead already at least. All the thralls he made while I played the story were somehow killed and the converted, not instantly corrupted.

 

About Mordy: I did not play HoT at all, so is hard for me here to give my opinion, but maybe the entire jungle was indeed Mordremoth, but like it grew of from her body, not like she could transfer her mind to new bodies and in order to kill her you needed to kill the mind and true body of Mordremoth. Just a theory I made with what you all said. This is tricky because of her domain of the mind, but lets make it clear that all Elder Dragons seem tricky somehow, not perfectly ruled entities with straight powers. They are all the core definition of "Savage Nature" after all. But I do think that, yeah, they all have a main body at least. Mordremoth needed its mind killed perhaps because she was not made out of "flesh", but instead she was made out of plants. With that in mind she could have used anything from her jungle to repair herself. Or so I think. Would need to read more on that matter.

 

We still have much to learn I pressume. Maybe we will discover that all Elder Dragons were not like this before, but rather like Aurene in past times. And maybe some events turned them savage rather than kind.

 

PS: I was wondering: In PoF's story cinematic, where they tell the story of Glint and the Exalted, they said how when they removed two ED from the cycle at the same time, it created chaos. Why does it not count for Zhaity and Mordy? Is it because they didn't die the same instant?

[Blocki.4931]

I think Kralk being able to animate rocks and dirt DOES simply boil down to rocks essentially just being compact mineral sediment and thus would fall under his "crystal control" type of deal. If you're being very simplistic about it.

 

Corpses would be very different to that becaujse obviously their organic material is in structure very much different from a grain of sand or dirt. The difference in the "animation of the inanimate" is that Zhaitan was of strictly organic origin while Kralk would be able to manipulate crystals and in that sense also minerals. I don't think you have to differentiate those two at all. HOWEVER something that is alive would still be very much susceptible to the manipulation of a Dragon. Besides organic and non-organic, I believe we will have to differentiate that a living being (and its mind) can fall to a corruption just as easily as its body. Prior to Zhaitan's death we might have never seen Kralk brand a corpse simply because the loss of this mind component (corpses don't have a mind after all) made it pretty much impossible to gain any control over the body in a feasible way. Why bother with a corpse when you could just animate that tasty ore over there? Now that he has this control over organic things however this became a whole lot easier.

 

Not exactly sure where the hivemind comes into this though. I think it is fair to assume that all Dragons share some level of knowledge with their minions, they are born from them and thanks to the imbued magic or whatever always connected. Mordremoth's control over the mind was unrivaled however and I believe that merely extended the capabilities further, instead of just now giving them the ability to do so.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Lance Von Alden.8415" said:

> As for corrution of Zhaitan, I don't think he can take thralls outside the dead. Yes, he can make you ill, poisoned or cursed with decay, and then after death you are his thrall. But I haven't seen one Zhaitan's thrall that isn't dead already at least. All the thralls he made while I played the story were somehow killed and the converted, not instantly corrupted.

 

We see half a dozen risen that hadn't died. I named four of them.

 

So he can 100% corrupt the living and make them risen without killing them. It's just as rare as Primordus corrupting living beings or Jormag corrupting living beings who refuse his power. Something they can do but do so rarely.

 

> @"Lance Von Alden.8415" said:

> PS: I was wondering: In PoF's story cinematic, where they tell the story of Glint and the Exalted, they said how when they removed two ED from the cycle at the same time, it created chaos. Why does it not count for Zhaity and Mordy? Is it because they didn't die the same instant?

 

The two dragons that died **are** Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It's a bit of a timeline frame of reference error, which happens quite a bit around Vlast and the Exalted in PoF...

 

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> I think Kralk being able to animate rocks and dirt DOES simply boil down to rocks essentially just being compact mineral sediment and thus would fall under his "crystal control" type of deal. If you're being very simplistic about it.

>

> Corpses would be very different to that becaujse obviously their organic material is in structure very much different from a grain of sand or dirt. The difference in the "animation of the inanimate" is that Zhaitan was of strictly organic origin while Kralk would be able to manipulate crystals and in that sense also minerals. I don't think you have to differentiate those two at all. HOWEVER something that is alive would still be very much susceptible to the manipulation of a Dragon. Besides organic and non-organic, I believe we will have to differentiate that a living being (and its mind) can fall to a corruption just as easily as its body. Prior to Zhaitan's death we might have never seen Kralk brand a corpse simply because the loss of this mind component (corpses don't have a mind after all) made it pretty much impossible to gain any control over the body in a feasible way. Why bother with a corpse when you could just animate that tasty ore over there? Now that he has this control over organic things however this became a whole lot easier.

 

By that argument, shouldn't Kralkatorrik be incapable of corrupting the living? Why would the lack of a mind/soul result in being unable to control flesh?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I’m aware of the Edge of Destiny reference with the former norn turned icebrood with the pushed in face. Doesn’t prove that Jormag can create minions from the dead. Having a pushed in face doesn’t mean that the norn was deceased. The Quaggans don’t appear to be dead either but appear to being turning into icebrood.

> >

> > Do you have the reference where the Pale Tree made the Sylvari from corpses. I thought she created the Sylvari after observing the humans that were around her as a sapling.

>

> It was during [Enraged and Unashamed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enraged_and_Unashamed). There were both standing "Sickly Quaggan"s as well as some laying down, and if I'm remembering correctly, those that were laying down were, in fact, dead and then became icebrood.

>

> Looking through interviews again, it's never specified which humans the Pale Tree modeled sylvari off of. Just that they were based on the Pale Tree's interpretation of humans. But there were only 4 living humans around her as a sapling, versus an entire village buried among her roots. It is ultimately no different from what the Blighting Trees do, despite Taimi's insistence that the Blighting Trees could only function because of magic from Zhaitan.

 

What is an interesting difference between the Pale Tree and the regular Blighting Trees were how fast the Blighting Trees made minions. Since the Pale Tree seems more sentient then the blighting trees, it’s clear that she grew Sylvari and it took quite a long time to make them. There didn’t seem to be this instant creation method that the Blighting Trees had with Mordrem. Look at how fast minions were created when they plug Logan and Zoija into the tree. The Blighting pods were also making minions from the dead as well.

 

What I did notice was the Shadow of the Dragon was grown by Mordremoth or could have been dormant, much like Drakkar, however minions like Mordrem Vinetooth were specifically created by Mordremoth to combat the exalted and take their masks. There doesn’t appear to be a creature that were plugged in and made. Also there doesn’t seem to be many Mordrem Vinetooth at all, not like there are Mordrem Trolls. This makes me think that the trees had to create a brand new custom Mordrem to combat Exalted and most likely took some time to make.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Lance Von Alden.8415" said:

> > As for corrution of Zhaitan, I don't think he can take thralls outside the dead. Yes, he can make you ill, poisoned or cursed with decay, and then after death you are his thrall. But I haven't seen one Zhaitan's thrall that isn't dead already at least. All the thralls he made while I played the story were somehow killed and the converted, not instantly corrupted.

>

> We see half a dozen risen that hadn't died. I named four of them.

>

> So he can 100% corrupt the living and make them risen without killing them. It's just as rare as Primordus corrupting living beings or Jormag corrupting living beings who refuse his power. Something they can do but do so rarely.

>

> > @"Lance Von Alden.8415" said:

> > PS: I was wondering: In PoF's story cinematic, where they tell the story of Glint and the Exalted, they said how when they removed two ED from the cycle at the same time, it created chaos. Why does it not count for Zhaity and Mordy? Is it because they didn't die the same instant?

>

> The two dragons that died **are** Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It's a bit of a timeline frame of reference error, which happens quite a bit around Vlast and the Exalted in PoF...

>

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > I think Kralk being able to animate rocks and dirt DOES simply boil down to rocks essentially just being compact mineral sediment and thus would fall under his "crystal control" type of deal. If you're being very simplistic about it.

> >

> > Corpses would be very different to that becaujse obviously their organic material is in structure very much different from a grain of sand or dirt. The difference in the "animation of the inanimate" is that Zhaitan was of strictly organic origin while Kralk would be able to manipulate crystals and in that sense also minerals. I don't think you have to differentiate those two at all. HOWEVER something that is alive would still be very much susceptible to the manipulation of a Dragon. Besides organic and non-organic, I believe we will have to differentiate that a living being (and its mind) can fall to a corruption just as easily as its body. Prior to Zhaitan's death we might have never seen Kralk brand a corpse simply because the loss of this mind component (corpses don't have a mind after all) made it pretty much impossible to gain any control over the body in a feasible way. Why bother with a corpse when you could just animate that tasty ore over there? Now that he has this control over organic things however this became a whole lot easier.

>

> By that argument, shouldn't Kralkatorrik be incapable of corrupting the living? Why would the lack of a mind/soul result in being unable to control flesh?

 

Going to have to agree with Konig on Zhaitan corrupting the living. What I don’t agree with is the Elder dragons creating minions from the dead, except for Zhaitan.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> > Mordremoth does have physical body. Otherwise it wouldn't die when we killed Trehearne's physical body.

> Uhh no, what you just said literally proves that Mordremoth was a being of mind not body. The fact that it could jump to Trehearne and take over his body was because it had no body of its own, and was a mental construction living in some plants.

 

It planted a seed inside ot Trehearne. If it got no body it wouldn't have dead when we killed him.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The Pale Tree isn't a scholar.

>

> But let's say she's just guessing - because despite there being literally no hint to her just guessing she's clearly not knowledgeable in the topic of Elder Dragon / dragon minion mentality. How do the risen know where the Chantry of Secrets is? Vigil Keep and Durmand Priory I can understand, but the Chantry of Secrets is, naturally, a well kept secret.

>

> As to why Zhaitan wouldn't warn his minions... You seem to be forgetting the key aspect of the relationship between dragon and minion: the dragon sees its minions as ants, not worth protecting. The Elder Dragons don't care if their minions die by the hundreds. Jormag doesn't care the Sons of Svanir hunt down the Icebrood for sport and training. To quote Jeff Grubbs, their mentality is "oh look, the red ants are fighting the black ants".

>

> Besides that, keep in mind that the minions we killed didn't know our plan. They just knew we were assaulting a lighthouse... then we assaulted some ships that got confused. After that, there were no minions to tell Zhaitan what we did with those ships - for all Zhaitan could know even with a Mordremoth-level of hive mentality, we left those ships there and they began drifting out.

 

 

They told Zhaitan, but they don't directly give him the knowledge.

 

It's not minions die, it's a major step assaulting Orr. Zhaitan would not have ignored if it could.

Zhaitan knew we assaulted a lighthouse and attacked the ship. He would have known that the ship got no Risen on it, thus he would not have let us get close at all.

 

 

>

> You're mistaking first person observations for unreliable narrator.

>

> And in all honesty, a lot of the facts come from player observations (e.g., minion behavior) or developer comments, and are only supplemented by NPC observations. As of late, NPC observations have been contradicting of the former two, and it is the former two that I've been presenting more.

 

Nothing is 100% certain unless fact came out.

 

 

 

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> They told Zhaitan, but they don't directly give him the knowledge.

>

> It's not minions die, it's a major step assaulting Orr. Zhaitan would not have ignored if it could.

> Zhaitan knew we assaulted a lighthouse and attacked the ship. He would have known that the ship got no Risen on it, thus he would not have let us get close at all.

You're ignoring one critical part: How could Zhaitan know what was happening if there were no minions which knew what was happening?

 

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> Nothing is 100% certain unless fact came out.

So... ArenaNet developers stating something about the game isn't a fact then?

 

Watching something with our own eyes isn't a fact then?

 

I guess it's all fake news, huh.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Lance Von Alden.8415" said:

> > As for corrution of Zhaitan, I don't think he can take thralls outside the dead. Yes, he can make you ill, poisoned or cursed with decay, and then after death you are his thrall. But I haven't seen one Zhaitan's thrall that isn't dead already at least. All the thralls he made while I played the story were somehow killed and the converted, not instantly corrupted.

>

> We see half a dozen risen that hadn't died. I named four of them.

>

> So he can 100% corrupt the living and make them risen without killing them. It's just as rare as Primordus corrupting living beings or Jormag corrupting living beings who refuse his power. Something they can do but do so rarely.

>

> > @"Lance Von Alden.8415" said:

> > PS: I was wondering: In PoF's story cinematic, where they tell the story of Glint and the Exalted, they said how when they removed two ED from the cycle at the same time, it created chaos. Why does it not count for Zhaity and Mordy? Is it because they didn't die the same instant?

>

> The two dragons that died **are** Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It's a bit of a timeline frame of reference error, which happens quite a bit around Vlast and the Exalted in PoF...

>

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > I think Kralk being able to animate rocks and dirt DOES simply boil down to rocks essentially just being compact mineral sediment and thus would fall under his "crystal control" type of deal. If you're being very simplistic about it.

> >

> > Corpses would be very different to that becaujse obviously their organic material is in structure very much different from a grain of sand or dirt. The difference in the "animation of the inanimate" is that Zhaitan was of strictly organic origin while Kralk would be able to manipulate crystals and in that sense also minerals. I don't think you have to differentiate those two at all. HOWEVER something that is alive would still be very much susceptible to the manipulation of a Dragon. Besides organic and non-organic, I believe we will have to differentiate that a living being (and its mind) can fall to a corruption just as easily as its body. Prior to Zhaitan's death we might have never seen Kralk brand a corpse simply because the loss of this mind component (corpses don't have a mind after all) made it pretty much impossible to gain any control over the body in a feasible way. Why bother with a corpse when you could just animate that tasty ore over there? Now that he has this control over organic things however this became a whole lot easier.

>

> By that argument, shouldn't Kralkatorrik be incapable of corrupting the living? Why would the lack of a mind/soul result in being unable to control flesh?

 

Because the mind/soul is what ultimately controls the flesh. A dead body has none of that, you have to bring a suitable replacement that would be able to do exactly that. It works for rocks because those would be part of his "expertise" by default. Invading a target's mind shouldn't be too hard but a dead body has nothing to invade and corrupt - thus making it more difficult to animate. Having the control over that undead flesh itself and the magic behind reanimating it would do the rest.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> It works for rocks because those would be part of his "expertise" by default.

 

However, all matter is turned into his "expertise" after corruption - into crystal. So why can he control soil turned crystal and not flesh turned crystal?

 

In the end, all branded are crystal and basalt.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The Pale Tree isn't a scholar.

>

> But let's say she's just guessing - because despite there being literally no hint to her just guessing she's clearly not knowledgeable in the topic of Elder Dragon / dragon minion mentality. How do the risen know where the Chantry of Secrets is? Vigil Keep and Durmand Priory I can understand, but the Chantry of Secrets is, naturally, a well kept secret.

>

> As to why Zhaitan wouldn't warn his minions... You seem to be forgetting the key aspect of the relationship between dragon and minion: the dragon sees its minions as ants, not worth protecting. The Elder Dragons don't care if their minions die by the hundreds. Jormag doesn't care the Sons of Svanir hunt down the Icebrood for sport and training. To quote Jeff Grubbs, their mentality is "oh look, the red ants are fighting the black ants".

>

> Besides that, keep in mind that the minions we killed didn't know our plan. They just knew we were assaulting a lighthouse... then we assaulted some ships that got confused. After that, there were no minions to tell Zhaitan what we did with those ships - for all Zhaitan could know even with a Mordremoth-level of hive mentality, we left those ships there and they began drifting out.

 

 

They told Zhaitan, but they don't directly give him the knowledge.

 

It's not minions die, it's a major step assaulting Orr. Zhaitan would not have ignored if it could.

Zhaitan knew we assaulted a lighthouse and attacked the ship. He would have known that the ship got no Risen on it, thus he would not have let us get close at all.

 

 

>

> You're mistaking first person observations for unreliable narrator.

>

> And in all honesty, a lot of the facts come from player observations (e.g., minion behavior) or developer comments, and are only supplemented by NPC observations. As of late, NPC observations have been contradicting of the former two, and it is the former two that I've been presenting more.

 

Nothing is 100% certain unless fact came out.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > It works for rocks because those would be part of his "expertise" by default.

>

> However, all matter is turned into his "expertise" after corruption - into crystal. So why can he control soil turned crystal and not flesh turned crystal?

>

> In the end, all branded are crystal and basalt.

 

We just don’t see any instance of Kralkatorrik reanimating a dead body until after he absorbs Zhaitan’s death sphere. Which is why I believe he can’t use dead bodies until he has control of the death spectrum.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.

 

They don't just connect the knowledge with Zhaitan, they told him about it.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Zhaitan gave his minions a lot of freedom and memory compare to other dragons. They showed their former emotions more than others. I believe Zhaitan's goal was to use these ppl's former skills and intelligence to work for him rather than just a bunch of zombies. This might be the reason of why the Risen still pose a threat after Zhaitan was dead for 3 years.

 

His weakness might also be that. He could create many many champions with different specific tasks, but when they are destroyed, it backfires him more than other dragons.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.

>

> They don't just connect the knowledge with Zhaitan, they told him about it.

 

Seems highly unlikely, as Zhaitan would have a long line up to his roost like Santa Clause this is clearly a Telepathic bond.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I think Zhaitan gaining knowledge from his minions is pretty evident from the personal story. Zhaitan seems to use the eyes as immediate surveillance and vision.

>

>

> He didn't get the info from our plan. If he knew what its minions knew, why didn't he warn his ship not to fall to our trap and ask his fleet to bring down the deadship we took? Its minions will reveal what they knew to him, but they are not directly connected.

 

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I think Zhaitan gaining knowledge from his minions is pretty evident from the personal story. Zhaitan seems to use the eyes as immediate surveillance and vision.

>

>

> He didn't get the info from our plan. If he knew what its minions knew, why didn't he warn his ship not to fall to our trap and ask his fleet to bring down the deadship we took? Its minions will reveal what they knew to him, but they are not directly connected.

 

This is why I have a theory that Zhaitan loses that knowledge if you kill the minion that granted it. Almost like how the Skritt get smarter with more Skritt around by communication, yet become less intelligent alone.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> Zhaitan gave his minions a lot of freedom and memory compare to other dragons. They showed their former emotions more than others. I believe Zhaitan's goal was to use these ppl's former skills and intelligence to work for him rather than just a bunch of zombies. This might be the reason of why the Risen still pose a threat after Zhaitan was dead for 3 years.

>

> His weakness might also be that. He could create many many champions with different specific tasks, but when they are destroyed, it backfires him more than other dragons.

 

I found Zhaitan minions had even less emotion then others, except destroyers, who seem not to be able to communicate.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I found Zhaitan minions had even less emotion then others, except destroyers, who seem not to be able to communicate.

 

Branded? No.

 

Mordrem? Other than the guards, no. Even the Mordrem Guards are just "gonna destroy you" when under control.

 

Icebrood? No other than "gonna destroy/turn you for Zhaitan".

 

If you have read Sea of Sorrows. The crew of Indomitable obviously showed a lot of emotion compare to other dragon minions.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I found Zhaitan minions had even less emotion then others, except destroyers, who seem not to be able to communicate.

>

> Branded? No.

>

> Mordrem? Other than the guards, no. Even the Mordrem Guards are just "gonna destroy you" when under control.

>

> Icebrood? No other than "gonna destroy/turn you for Zhaitan".

>

> If you have read Sea of Sorrows. The crew of Indomitable obviously showed a lot of emotion compare to other dragon minions.

 

Probably because most of the minions were once sentient creatures.

 

“Death, good.”

 

“Surrender to the will of Zhaitan.”

 

Where is the intelligence and emotion again?

[Slowpokeking.8720]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > I found Zhaitan minions had even less emotion then others, except destroyers, who seem not to be able to communicate.

> >

> > Branded? No.

> >

> > Mordrem? Other than the guards, no. Even the Mordrem Guards are just "gonna destroy you" when under control.

> >

> > Icebrood? No other than "gonna destroy/turn you for Zhaitan".

> >

> > If you have read Sea of Sorrows. The crew of Indomitable obviously showed a lot of emotion compare to other dragon minions.

>

> Probably because most of the minions were once sentient creatures.

>

> “Death, good.”

>

> “Surrender to the will of Zhaitan.”

>

> Where is the intelligence and emotion again?

 

Like I said, read Sea of Sorrows.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Slowpokeking.8720" Did you really just duplicate a previous post with zero edits to it? Way to address my new points. /s

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> > Zhaitan gave his minions a lot of freedom and memory compare to other dragons. They showed their former emotions more than others. I believe Zhaitan's goal was to use these ppl's former skills and intelligence to work for him rather than just a bunch of zombies. This might be the reason of why the Risen still pose a threat after Zhaitan was dead for 3 years.

> >

> > His weakness might also be that. He could create many many champions with different specific tasks, but when they are destroyed, it backfires him more than other dragons.

>

> I found Zhaitan minions had even less emotion then others, except destroyers, who seem not to be able to communicate.

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Probably because most of the minions were once sentient creatures.

>

> “Death, good.”

>

> “Surrender to the will of Zhaitan.”

>

> Where is the intelligence and emotion again?

 

Nah, other than the Mordrem Guard, the risen definitely have the most personality to them among dragon minions. For icebrood and branded, any personality that exists is among the champions and lieutenants alone (with the exception of icebrood quaggan and buggy icebrood goliaths, no non-lieutenant/champion among icebrood and branded even have aggro quotes to say).

 

While all dragon minions (sans sylvari/mordrem guard) have an overarching lack of personality, the fact that even risen thralls *speak at all* shows that they have a tad bit more than the others.

 

Of course, this is like comparing a 1 to a 2 on a scale of 20 for how much personality they have.