Never go back to HoT style zones, stick to PoF

[Ayakaru.6583]

I hope there’s a middle ground.

I loved the verticallity, and the labyrinthinity of Tangled Depths, but obviously I wouldn’t want every map to be like that. I want anet to look at every region and decide per whether or not the depths would work. If we go to dwarven ruins, or destroyer tunnels, a cavernous area like TD makes sense, but if we go to the far shiverpeaks, or cascade woodlands, it should be open world with some caves

[Torolan.5816]

Tangeld Depths is a map that is just impossible for me to navigate. I used to hate it very much, now in some time and with the knowledge that I never have to explore it from Alpha to Omega, I have come to a cease fire with it.

Dragon Stand is just dead weight outside of the meta, a blatant attempt to sell a map as cool instead of confessing it is just a bloated world boss meta.

Auric Basin is ok. Nothing to write home about and a very unforgiving map for people that dislike exploring and do it for collections, but beats TD in all aspects.

Verdant Brink is also attempting to pull the wool over your eyes with posing as a three layer map. It´s a two layer map if you are realyl generous and count the cellar and top level together as one.

 

Having said that, HoT got better over time and I would give it a 6/10 today. Nothing I would terribly miss if it would be gone tomorrow.

PoF is a solid 8/10. Easier to navigate, mobs still harder than vanilla. A job well done i would say. The story is as terrible as it was in HoT already, but that started already in ls3.

[Einlanzer.1627]

Everyone loves to talk about the metas and that being a reason why PoF won't have the same lifespan.

 

They are wrong. It's purely about the rewards. People don't care about repeating map wide metas ad nauseam. They simply go where they get best rewards and the best feeling of reward. Right now, this is places like SW and AB. All they need to do is retune this to move the population into different areas, and PoF is in need of some reward buffs to keep players there.

 

It's actually something I think they should do more often as a way to move the population around and keep the game more fresh, and ensure that players can work on goals in areas that are currently underpopulated. They should do events like "Orr weekend" where everything in Orr has great rewards so those maps become highly populated for special event weekends.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

HoT maps aren't that bad. Gave the feeling of being lost in the jungle, especially when we went to the Tangled Depths. Well at least in the beginning it did. I can easily navigate it now. I hope they do revisit HoT style maps when we eventually start having more underground maps.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> They are wrong. It's purely about the rewards. People don't care about repeating map wide metas ad nauseam. They simply go where they get best rewards and the best feeling of reward are. All they need to do is retune this to move the population into different areas. It's actually something I think they should do more often as a way to move the population around. They should do events like "Orr weekend" where everything in Orr has great rewards so those maps become highly populated for special event weekends.

 

Rewards isn't the only problem with the meta events in Path of Fire.

 

A ) A lot of them are not on a timer which means it's much harder to coordinate players to finish them. When I want to go kill the Chak Gerent I can go to Tangled Depths a few minutes before the event begins and finish the event without problems. I can't do that for the Maw of Torment, Forged with Fire, Junundu Rising, Augury Rock or any of the Bounties. I can't just say for example to my guild, guild event Maw of Torment tomorrow @20:00 like I can with Heart of Fire meta events. The meta events in Path of Fire lack a mechanism for players to plan for them. Serpent's Ire and the Casino Blitz are the exceptions.

 

B ) Maw of Torment, Forged with Fire and Junundu Rising have pre-events on a timer. This means that the meta events will begin when a player is close, but that player has a very short time window to gather friends in order to finish the first event. In contrast, Silverwastes and a lot of the non-world boss Core Tyria meta events have an event without a time limit as their first one, an escort that if the npc dies you can revive them at any point and continue. For example Toil of the Coil (Infinity Coil meta event)

Other meta events have a FAILURE state so if the first event fails, the players can do the failure state event and then progress the meta event from there. Example is Assault on Fort Cadence in Sparkfly Fen.

 

C ) In Heart of Thorns and Silverwastes finishing events on the same map as the meta event, rewards you with map-specific keys that you will then use after the meta event is finished. You can gather Shovels by finishing events in SW, then use the shovels after Vinewrath (or you can do it before too) for extra rewards. When you complete events in Auric Basin you get Exalted Keys to unlock chests under Tarir, you get Pact Crowbars when you finish events in Verdant Brink which allows you to unlock floating cargo that appear only during meta completion. In contrast, doing events in Desolation won't give you anything that will net you more rewards during Maw of Torment.

 

D) Forged with Fire and Junundu Rising have absolutely terrible range, for both you need to go really close to even see their status. This means they might be ongoing but nearby players have no way of knowing.

 

In short, Path of Fire events lack good timers, they have bad first events with time limits, the events around them do not increase your rewards and their terrible view range are other factors, other than rewards, that limit Path of Fire meta events.

[Fipmip.7219]

The problem with the HoT maps was redundancy. There was none. You have to follow specific winding paths to get to points of interest, with no clear directional cues. It's perfectly possible to have beautiful, sprawling, 3 dimensional maps, but they need to be complex in looks alone. You need more connecting paths and little to no dead ends. There needs to be functionally straight or well marked paths between points of interest, as well as plenty of paths between those paths (that are clearly as such), otherwise people will simply get lost and thus frustrated. ie: the map can be complex at first glance, but is open in practice.

 

Ask yourself - do people tend to get clustered around the base of a cliff trying to get to a point that's above them? Add a way to scale the cliff to allow people to get directly to that spot. people have their own version of pathfinding, and it usually involves running directly from point a to b in the most obvious line possible. pve maps need to play to that tendency.

[Nausicca.6038]

I’m actualy working on Aurora so I spend most of my time in LS3 maps and I can say that they are the perfect mix for me. HoT feeling, meta maps on short cooldowns, PoF mounts, lot of people, gathering nodes, ascended trinkets etc... I wish Anet made PoF similar to LS3. I very rarely go to the desert, but I don’t visit HoT much either.

[Curunen.8729]

I really like Auric Basin and I really like Tangled Depths - my two favourite HoT zones. AB is just beautiful colour scheme with dense vibrant greens and golds, and a fun meta, and TD despite what many say about its design I personally love the intricate design and it has some beautiful contrasting areas.

 

VB is definitely the most boring HoT map in my opinion, and I'm so glad Anet decided not to do another DS meta only map where you can't access most of it unless queuing at the right time and spending an hour and a half completing the meta...

 

However in PoF I LOVE the southern area of Elon Riverlands, where the skimmers are - beautiful tropical paradise down there. Desert Highlands also has some beautiful and impressive areas on the west and north side around the Springer area.

 

But overall I really don't like the desert environment in general, in any game or in reality - it's a visually dull monotone environment (yes I know the actual biodiversity in some real world arid areas is extremely high, but I'm talking strictly about the visual impression and colour palette). The beige/brown is so boring compared with the vibrant green of AB or even areas like the Grove - but then I love forests IRL anyway so naturaly prefer those areas. The most interesting thing about PoF desert areas is actually the purple branded regions - because the crystal geometry is visually appealing and the purple tones more pleasing on the eye than the endless beige of sand.

 

As a side note one thing HoT did MUCH better than PoF is Adventures. So far every adventure I've come across in PoF seems to be some sort of 10 minute taxi run across huge distances on a mount. Extremely tedious, especially if trying to complete in a certain time - by the time you realise you've failed and have to start again you've already wasted a good number of minutes. HoT Adventures were all nice and short so you could restart and try again multiple times to get the gold. I hope for the next expansion Anet follows the HoT model for Adventures and not the PoF model.

[troops.8276]

Does it matter? It'll be the same old amusement park. No matter the flavour of the next wing of the themepark the rides will be just as played out. In two years who knows what will be going on. Looking at some of the titles in development there seems to be a conscious effort to move away from the old mmo model and create things more player led and dynamic. CF, CU, Rend are all steps in another direction. What else will follow. GW3 maybe?

[Curunen.8729]

> @troops.8276 said:

> Does it matter? It'll be the same old amusement park. No matter the flavour of the next wing of the themepark the rides will be just as played out. In two years who knows what will be going on. Looking at some of the titles in development there seems to be a conscious effort to move away from the old mmo model and create things more player led and dynamic. CF, CU, Rend are all steps in another direction. What else will follow. GW3 maybe?

 

GW2 is themepark - that's never going to change tbh.

[troops.8276]

> @Curunen.8729 said:

> > @troops.8276 said:

> > Does it matter? It'll be the same old amusement park. No matter the flavour of the next wing of the themepark the rides will be just as played out. In two years who knows what will be going on. Looking at some of the titles in development there seems to be a conscious effort to move away from the old mmo model and create things more player led and dynamic. CF, CU, Rend are all steps in another direction. What else will follow. GW3 maybe?

>

> GW2 is themepark - that's never going to change tbh.

 

Yep, my point exactly.

[Menadena.7482]

> @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> It's very clear that a mix of both is needed. Both hot and pof should have had 1-2 meta maps and 3-4 non meta maps.

 

Yes, exactly where they need to go between the two expansions is a bit of a debate but both are extremes for multiple things.

 

Even without the metas there was replayability with the HOT maps, whether you loved them or hated them. The POF maps? Once you do whatever you do that is 'done' by how you define it (all of the story, some/all elites, 100% map completion, something else) there is no real incentive to come back.

 

In a short time I had act 1 of the story, the first 4 mounts to mastery 3 (I am holding off mastery 4 until I see if I need any points for LS4) and did a bit of exploring on all of the maps. I suspect the next time I will do anything major on there is farming HPs for the next expansion.

[Curunen.8729]

> @troops.8276 said:

> > @Curunen.8729 said:

> > > @troops.8276 said:

> > > Does it matter? It'll be the same old amusement park. No matter the flavour of the next wing of the themepark the rides will be just as played out. In two years who knows what will be going on. Looking at some of the titles in development there seems to be a conscious effort to move away from the old mmo model and create things more player led and dynamic. CF, CU, Rend are all steps in another direction. What else will follow. GW3 maybe?

> >

> > GW2 is themepark - that's never going to change tbh.

>

> Yep, my point exactly.

 

So my point is that the best we can hope for is a damn good themepark and suggest the type of "rides" we each individually enjoy more than others.

 

In any case I like to still think of GW2 as an old school fighting/action game, dressed up in themepark fluff.

[Crinn.7864]

I haven't gone back to PoF maps since the day I finished the story.

[Jinroh.4251]

Really what made HOT maps terrible was the mobs. It was the mobs plain and simple. They figured folks would go into HOT in groups. Well they figured wrong and as a result mobs were overtuned. Pocket raptors murdered people left and right. Veteran Smokescales can down a person with their opening attack. So the sense of getting lost in the HOT map plus the murderous mobs made everything really unfun for a lot of players. In POF they made mobs more manageable but it's a desert setting as well. There are still hard mobs in POF but players have an easier time to navigate.

 

A blend of the two would be just fine. Maybe make an underground map? Lots of tunnels like in tangled depths but an easy to navigate upper area.

[Silencio.2604]

I used to hate exploring, getting stuck trying to find a place. But now with mounts it's all fun to me, even HoT.

First day I was in HoT map I was raging in chat, didn't like the place. The crazy poison stacks, how hard the mobs were, having to do hero points in groups,

and falling to my death over and over because I didn't have a glider yet.

But the next 3 days after I was in there as well and loving it. And now I wish PoF mobs were harder.

I love the PoF maps as well, the space you have, I just miss the chain events like so many others, and I don't like the bounty system.

[Abelisk.4527]

Living World season 3 was an example of verticality and horizontality balanced well.

[zealex.9410]

No thank you. Variety is the spice of life.

[zealex.9410]

> @paragon.6543 said:

> I agree with OP, I love the PoF maps way more compared to HoT!

> There's no constant crazy happening.

> You can truly enjoy the setting you're in.

> Not to mention, there's a city in here where you're not constantly getting locked out either.

> I LOVE PoF maps.

> HoT were far too crazy.

>

> Honestly, if the HoT maps had a little less world crazy events going on, maybe they might not have been sooo bad.

> Plus some of the mobs were too nuts. The mobs that keep exploding / debilitating you.

 

Jacaranda or w/e their name is would like to have a few words with you.

[zealex.9410]

> @wrathmagik.3518 said:

> I can't fault anet for trying something new, and going out on a limb with HOT. Credit where credit is due. Unfortunately they threw the baby out with the bath water and forgot what made it the fastest selling MMO of all time and completely alienated their player base.

>

> That being said I think a mix of the two would be ideal. The big open maps are fun, but wheres the excitement?

 

Im part of that playerbase and i loved the hot maps.

[Faaris.8013]

> @nehezbegar.1065 said:

> As title says. You don't even realize how much fun is to not get confused on the map. The first impressions of the expac is 100000000000000000000 better than HoT.

>

> Please ArenaNet, never go back to the confusing disaster the HoT maps were, while beautiful they were, the navigation and enjoyment of exploring was atrocious. Please bring more open world like, expanded and vast landscapes we got in PoF:)

 

Well, like with other games, simplicity is fun, on the short term. I'm playing https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/41010/my-first-carcassonne with my 4 years old these days. He's having a blast, simple rules, easy game play, a little bit competitive. I used to play Settlers of Catan a lot, more complex, more rules, more strategic possibilities, cooperation with other players etc. While I'm already getting bored with the Carcassone children's version, I would still play Settlers of Catan. And there are much more complex board games out there. Thing is, I don't think people will stay at PoF maps for long. It took me about 3 months to discover that there are channels under Tangled Depths that you can travel through. I really don't think there are places in PoF I don't know about by now, and I haven't been there in the last two weeks or so unless a bounty was daily. The more complex a game or a map is, the more long term fun it is. We'll see how you feel in the desert after 3 months.

[GWMO.4785]

I disagree. The plot of Path of Fire was by far WAY better then Heart of Thorns. However when it comes to map design i like the first expansion more. I'm not really a fan of the jungle theme, but it was a lot more denser. There where more map objectives, more events going on. One triggered the other. I kinda mis that in the second expansion. I get that the maps had to be a lot bigger duo to mounts. And there for the map objectives had to be scattered around. But its so minor and just feels...empty... There some events that chain up. But most of them are independent from one and other. There is no meta event you can push towards to.

 

If i compare my first time in HoT with PoF, then i can easily tell that i have spend more time in the Maguuma Jungle. Tarir (not multiloot) and Dragons stance meta events where fun to do and i have spend quite some time in there. I feel like the only reason i would go back to crystal desert is duo to bounties. But those are like mini world bosses. And there for i find them boring. I did a couple, but cba to keep doing them.

 

tl;dr = **_IMO_**, PoF is only story wise better then HoT

[FOX.3582]

Can I like both? Yup, I like both. =)

[Shirlias.8104]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > @Dahkeus.8243 said:

> > Totally agreed. I'm actually enjoying map exploration and gathering mastery points. In HoT, all the map stuff felt like such a grind because of how labyrinthine the maps were.

>

> You should probably read again the definition of grind.

>

> Also, td and Vb apart ( though the first is pretty easy with many portals and tunnels ), what hot map should be a Lab?

>

>

 

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> I haven't gone back to PoF maps since the day I finished the story.

 

Same.

I enjoyed map completion, story and achievements related, some bounties and events.

 

But it's not a bad thing.

It was really worth the cost of the expansion, and the fact i feel no reason to go back ( unlessi want to do something specific ) is not an issue for me.

[Torolan.5816]

> @Faaris.8013 said:

> > @nehezbegar.1065 said:

> > As title says. You don't even realize how much fun is to not get confused on the map. The first impressions of the expac is 100000000000000000000 better than HoT.

> >

> > Please ArenaNet, never go back to the confusing disaster the HoT maps were, while beautiful they were, the navigation and enjoyment of exploring was atrocious. Please bring more open world like, expanded and vast landscapes we got in PoF:)

>

> Well, like with other games, simplicity is fun, on the short term. I'm playing https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/41010/my-first-carcassonne with my 4 years old these days. He's having a blast, simple rules, easy game play, a little bit competitive. I used to play Settlers of Catan a lot, more complex, more rules, more strategic possibilities, cooperation with other players etc. While I'm already getting bored with the Carcassone children's version, I would still play Settlers of Catan. And there are much more complex board games out there. Thing is, I don't think people will stay at PoF maps for long. It took me about 3 months to discover that there are channels under Tangled Depths that you can travel through. I really don't think there are places in PoF I don't know about by now, and I haven't been there in the last two weeks or so unless a bounty was daily. The more complex a game or a map is, the more long term fun it is. We'll see how you feel in the desert after 3 months.

 

I work in the education sector, i know what you mean up to a certain point. When I puzzle with kids, especially if it is one with 40 pieces or less, I am bored to tears very fast.

 

But I almost never tire of four connect despite it being a very simple design. I played it with kids from the age of 4 to 11, and I always play to win if the child does not ask me if I can let it win once because I think that it is healthy for them to improve their capabilities and for me to show them what cooperation and being a good and generous winner is all about . But i do that because it is virtually the job of a children to play games, any my job is it to teach them.

From a game for my personal enjoyment, I as an adult do not want to or have the need to be taught a lesson in gameplay. I play competively if the game allows me too by not making it frustrating like falling down for the umpteetth time because of something as irrelavant as a bad timed jum or ven worse a clipping issue, but I am also happy with playing relaxed, afking, talking.

I would say it is a also a matter of preference. Some games jus are boring or unbearable for you, bot others love them. The game of life for example is a rather complex game, but I hate it with a passion for its´s background while I like to play monopoly despite its sinister plot.

 

Let´s also talk about the supposed game of kings, chess, from that thought. From all the people I know from work, privately or just by seeing and talking with them sometimes, I would say a majority of them would be intellectually capable enough of giving me a challenging game of chess if they knew the rules. But the truth is, the majority of them are uncapable of doing so. Not because I am super intelligent or eat, sleep and breathe chess, but because they lack patience and the will to learn to do so. and that is the kind of people a company should strive for if it goes for entertainment issues. it is just a rather big majority.

 

tl;dr: Playing games is a matter of taste, and a simply game can be long term fun too.