Stealth

[Legatus.3608]

Oh look, another whining about thief thread. Imagine my surprise.

 

We missed our wednesday whining about thief thread, fortunately we got 2 pages of unfounded whining about thief today to make up for it.

 

What exactly about stealth is it that is OP? You can't capture points while stealthed, but enemies can take your point from you if you sit on it in stealth. You can't deal damage while stealthed, but you can take damage. Each stealth ability/trait is taking up the slot of something that either does damage, or provides some utility to a team that would otherwise be getting something that is otherwise actually useful for contributing to the fight. It's not something that is provided innately to thief or even mesmer/ranger if that be the case. It actually provides NOTHING towards the fight at all other than helping with stomping, which can still be prevented through a plethora of preventative measures.

 

So what exactly is it about stealth that is OP? Please do share. Are you saying backstab is OP? I think everyone who actually plays the game would beg to differ.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Simple fix....while in stealth damage delt is reduced 15%-40% including condi damage....since that build benefits most from it by staying in stealth 100% of the time....

To me this is fair cuz instead of that invisa backstab doing 10k+ damage to it will do under 10k making it alittle less op.

15k+ invisa backstabs are impractical for healthy combat and just ruins any strategy needed to play against the class....instead u have to rely on traited invulns, and ages to avoid the next death blow if your lucky enough to survive.

 

Edited for spelling

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> 15k+ invisa backstabs are impractical for healthy combat

 

You're right, it IS impractical for combat, which is why nobody uses builds like that in real pvp matches. Since you'd have to be playing on a build with 11k health and giving up something useful for assassins signet.

 

Meanwhile mesmer is chaining 20k bursts from stealth and people are whining about fucking backstab.

 

SMH.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> Oh look, another whining about thief thread. Imagine my surprise.

>

> We missed our wednesday whining about thief thread, fortunately we got 2 pages of unfounded whining about thief today to make up for it.

>

> What exactly about stealth is it that is OP? You can't capture points while stealthed, but enemies can take your point from you if you sit on it in stealth. You can't deal damage while stealthed, but you can take damage. Each stealth ability/trait is taking up the slot of something that either does damage, or provides some utility to a team that would otherwise be getting something that is otherwise actually useful for contributing to the fight. It's not something that is provided innately to thief or even mesmer/ranger if that be the case. It actually provides NOTHING towards the fight at all other than helping with stomping, which can still be prevented through a plethora of preventative measures.

>

> So what exactly is it about stealth that is OP? Please do share. Are you saying backstab is OP? I think everyone who actually plays the game would beg to differ.

 

I imagined your surprise.

 

Did it look anything like this?

 


 

[saerni.2584]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > Stealth isn’t changing. Too much of it is baked into core game design and is basically asking them to delete an entire class (thief). So that’s not happening.

> >

> > The most you might be able to get is reducing stealth camping. But they built Deadeye around stealth camping so even that kind of change is unlikely to result in total removal.

> >

> > The more likely change is adding in skills that reveal to provide counterplay. This won’t satisfy everyone but may cut down on the effectiveness of stealth camping and thus the number of people playing those builds. Note: this won’t impact Deadeye as much because Shadow Meld is a counter-counter to reveal.

>

> I mean, until a few weeks ago, one could say the same thing about mesmer phantasms. changing stealth would be a significantly larger change, but Anet has shown that they are willing to completely redesign classes if they think that it is good for the class and game

 

They didn’t “completely redesign” Mesmer so your point is not well founded.

 

As pointed out above, attacking reveals the stealthed player. So do multiple counter abilities that are AoE. Engineer is getting a buff to 1200 radius to help with landing theirs. That’s the kind of anti-stealth counterplay Anet has in mind. Stealth is otherwise “working as intended.”

 

When you suggest taking out or changing stealth it is more than just a moderate redesign to one sub-part of a single profession. Every stealth based ability would need to be redesigned. Core thief would need to be redesigned entirely. Deadeye would need to be redesigned entirely. Any profession using stealth would need to be rebalanced, some substantially, including Mesmer, Ranger/Druid, and Engineer/Scrapper.

 

Anet changed Phantasms to make the mechanic more consistent so the phantasm builds could be viable. They took an underperforming aspect and buffed it, in line with their general balancing philosophy—“buff weaker builds and nerf stronger builds.”

 

Anet admittedly did change the confusion condition. But the change was oriented towards redistributing the damage to the active skill use and away from the passive over time. This change, however, can’t be fully evaluated as a nerf until more people start using it. Most people run some variation on power damage these days due to the things that are possible with the overly generous phantasm buff. I suspect this change could be compared to removing stealth stacking from the game (which is a more likely change than gutting stealth’s base design and starting over).

 

Essentially, my issue is that people underestimate the complexity of redesign needed to remove stealth, the significant playbase costs that could be incurred from a massive nerf with no compensation (leading them to over compensate: see phantasm changes), the value of alternatives (asking for a reveal ability on a class that doesn’t have one or asking that stealth stacking be reduced in some way) and the simple fact that most complaints about stealth are based on outliers that the balance team can’t use as a baseline in gamewide mechanic balancing considerations (most of which rely on misconceptions about game mechanics by uninformed players who accuse a necro of hacking because he teleported using spectral walk or a thief of hacking because he was playing thief).

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Stealth is fine as it is, things like Cnd 3 second stealth for an example but the stacking of stealth IS a silly idea.

[michelada.2947]

like i said before , stealth alone is not the problem , permastealth with no chance fight back it is , capping stealth to a maximun of 3 secs will give the player the chance to have windows where you can see your opponent and have an idea of where it is even if go stealth again almost inmediately or add mechanic like exhaustion that deny the aplication of stealth for 1-2 secs

 

[saerni.2584]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> like i said before , stealth alone is not the problem , permastealth with no chance fight back it is , capping stealth to a maximun of 3 secs will give the player the chance to have windows where you can see your opponent and have an idea of where it is even if go stealth again almost inmediately or add mechanic like exhaustion that deny the aplication of stealth for 1-2 secs

>

 

Revealed already exists. Again, if they aren’t attacking they shouldn’t have a debuff preventing them from stealthing again.

 

And capping it to 3 seconds doesn’t even consider that there are many applications of stealth longer than 3 seconds. Take veil, the SA line which adds one second to stealth duration, Shadow Refuge etc.

 

If you want to reduce stealth stacking the easiest fix is to cap the total time to around 12 seconds. This lets you maintain long durations without being able to stay permanently invisible. Maybe even reveal them if the cap is exceeded. But three seconds is far too low and breaks far too many legitimate abilities and traits.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > like i said before , stealth alone is not the problem , permastealth with no chance fight back it is , capping stealth to a maximun of 3 secs will give the player the chance to have windows where you can see your opponent and have an idea of where it is even if go stealth again almost inmediately or add mechanic like exhaustion that deny the aplication of stealth for 1-2 secs

> >

>

> Revealed already exists. Again, if they aren’t attacking they shouldn’t have a debuff preventing them from stealthing again.

>

> And capping it to 3 seconds doesn’t even consider that there are many applications of stealth longer than 3 seconds. Take veil, the SA line which adds one second to stealth duration, Shadow Refuge etc.

>

> If you want to reduce stealth stacking the easiest fix is to cap the total time to around 12 seconds. This lets you maintain long durations without being able to stay permanently invisible. Maybe even reveal them if the cap is exceeded. But three seconds is far too low and breaks far too many legitimate abilities and traits.

 

Are talking about mesmers veil? Because it’s two seconds and no one takes it in PvP. The thing with veil is it has unlimited targets.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > like i said before , stealth alone is not the problem , permastealth with no chance fight back it is , capping stealth to a maximun of 3 secs will give the player the chance to have windows where you can see your opponent and have an idea of where it is even if go stealth again almost inmediately or add mechanic like exhaustion that deny the aplication of stealth for 1-2 secs

> > >

> >

> > Revealed already exists. Again, if they aren’t attacking they shouldn’t have a debuff preventing them from stealthing again.

> >

> > And capping it to 3 seconds doesn’t even consider that there are many applications of stealth longer than 3 seconds. Take veil, the SA line which adds one second to stealth duration, Shadow Refuge etc.

> >

> > If you want to reduce stealth stacking the easiest fix is to cap the total time to around 12 seconds. This lets you maintain long durations without being able to stay permanently invisible. Maybe even reveal them if the cap is exceeded. But three seconds is far too low and breaks far too many legitimate abilities and traits.

>

> Are talking about mesmers veil? Because it’s two seconds and no one takes it in PvP. The thing with veil is it has unlimited targets.

 

I was mainly referring to various stealth abilities that may exceed the suggested cap in both PvP or WvW. Veil can be chained and is an option for WvW.

 

Since the suggestion is a core mechanic change affecting all game modes (Anet won’t split base functionality) I based my comment on a more general usage.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > > like i said before , stealth alone is not the problem , permastealth with no chance fight back it is , capping stealth to a maximun of 3 secs will give the player the chance to have windows where you can see your opponent and have an idea of where it is even if go stealth again almost inmediately or add mechanic like exhaustion that deny the aplication of stealth for 1-2 secs

> > > >

> > >

> > > Revealed already exists. Again, if they aren’t attacking they shouldn’t have a debuff preventing them from stealthing again.

> > >

> > > And capping it to 3 seconds doesn’t even consider that there are many applications of stealth longer than 3 seconds. Take veil, the SA line which adds one second to stealth duration, Shadow Refuge etc.

> > >

> > > If you want to reduce stealth stacking the easiest fix is to cap the total time to around 12 seconds. This lets you maintain long durations without being able to stay permanently invisible. Maybe even reveal them if the cap is exceeded. But three seconds is far too low and breaks far too many legitimate abilities and traits.

> >

> > Are talking about mesmers veil? Because it’s two seconds and no one takes it in PvP. The thing with veil is it has unlimited targets.

>

> I was mainly referring to various stealth abilities that may exceed the suggested cap in both PvP or WvW. Veil can be chained and is an option for WvW.

>

> Since the suggestion is a core mechanic change affecting all game modes (Anet won’t split base functionality) I based my comment on a more general usage.

 

??

I’m with you.

And isn’t it more Anet can’t split functionality? Confusion being the prime example as the passive tick made it too strong in PvP/WvW but usable is PvE.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > > > like i said before , stealth alone is not the problem , permastealth with no chance fight back it is , capping stealth to a maximun of 3 secs will give the player the chance to have windows where you can see your opponent and have an idea of where it is even if go stealth again almost inmediately or add mechanic like exhaustion that deny the aplication of stealth for 1-2 secs

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Revealed already exists. Again, if they aren’t attacking they shouldn’t have a debuff preventing them from stealthing again.

> > > >

> > > > And capping it to 3 seconds doesn’t even consider that there are many applications of stealth longer than 3 seconds. Take veil, the SA line which adds one second to stealth duration, Shadow Refuge etc.

> > > >

> > > > If you want to reduce stealth stacking the easiest fix is to cap the total time to around 12 seconds. This lets you maintain long durations without being able to stay permanently invisible. Maybe even reveal them if the cap is exceeded. But three seconds is far too low and breaks far too many legitimate abilities and traits.

> > >

> > > Are talking about mesmers veil? Because it’s two seconds and no one takes it in PvP. The thing with veil is it has unlimited targets.

> >

> > I was mainly referring to various stealth abilities that may exceed the suggested cap in both PvP or WvW. Veil can be chained and is an option for WvW.

> >

> > Since the suggestion is a core mechanic change affecting all game modes (Anet won’t split base functionality) I based my comment on a more general usage.

>

> ??

> I’m with you.

> And isn’t it more Anet can’t split functionality? Confusion being the prime example as the passive tick made it too strong in PvP/WvW but usable is PvE.

 

They could split it but choose not to have traits that do fundamentally different things. So you won’t see them make Preparedness baseline in PvP but leave the current system in PvE.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> If you want to reduce stealth stacking the easiest fix is to cap the total time to around 12 seconds. This lets you maintain long durations without being able to stay permanently invisible. Maybe even reveal them if the cap is exceeded. But three seconds is far too low and breaks far too many legitimate abilities and traits.

 

There's really no sense in doing that... especially Out of Combat. If they limited it to 12 seconds, then you would have a Stealth Thief be invisible for 24 out of 25 seconds.

 

Besides, there's already a hard cap of 5 Stealth applications at any given time. It takes a constant supply of initiative/utility/endurance to maintain those applications. It's the same as stacking Might or Swiftness or any other boon.

 

Other than Deadeye, which I cannot speak for, Thieves don't stay in Stealth in PvP. In WvW, Stealth is the Thief's survival mechanism. As long as Shadow Refuge and Black Powder+Cluster Bomb exists, two coordinated Thieves can keep an entire group Stealthed for however long. That's the nature of WvW.

 

The only issue with perma-Stealth for the Thief was the Ghost Trapper which doesn't exist now, and really was more of an annoyance than anything.

 

If they did something completely asinine such as limit Stealth to 3 seconds, they should very well allow a Stealthed player to contest/capture a point. Heck, they should allow it now with all of the AoE. It's not as though a Thief can stay in Stealth on point for long if there's an enemy there anyway. He would end up leaving the point or revealing himself somehow... especially after the Heartseeker's camera adjustments got changed. If a Warrior or Ranger can contest a point while completely immune to direct damage, there's no reason a Thief shouldn't be able to in Stealth in today's game.

 

Most of the complaints about Stealth are just from annoyances or frustration, not from actual balance problems. As a Thief, I could go on and on about Warriors, Mesmers, Guardians, Necromancers, Rangers, etc... because they completely outclass the Thief in PvP combat. Until Stealth (or whatever) actually allows a Thief to fight 1v1 on point with an even shot at winning, it's a non-issue in PvP.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > If you want to reduce stealth stacking the easiest fix is to cap the total time to around 12 seconds. This lets you maintain long durations without being able to stay permanently invisible. Maybe even reveal them if the cap is exceeded. But three seconds is far too low and breaks far too many legitimate abilities and traits.

>

> There's really no sense in doing that... especially Out of Combat. If they limited it to 12 seconds, then you would have a Stealth Thief be invisible for 24 out of 25 seconds.

>

> Besides, there's already a hard cap of 5 Stealth applications at any given time. It takes a constant supply of initiative/utility/endurance to maintain those applications. It's the same as stacking Might or Swiftness or any other boon.

>

> Other than Deadeye, which I cannot speak for, Thieves don't stay in Stealth in PvP. In WvW, Stealth is the Thief's survival mechanism. As long as Shadow Refuge and Black Powder+Cluster Bomb exists, two coordinated Thieves can keep an entire group Stealthed for however long. That's the nature of WvW.

>

> The only issue with perma-Stealth for the Thief was the Ghost Trapper which doesn't exist now, and really was more of an annoyance than anything.

>

> If they did something completely asinine such as limit Stealth to 3 seconds, they should very well allow a Stealthed player to contest/capture a point. Heck, they should allow it now with all of the AoE. It's not as though a Thief can stay in Stealth on point for long if there's an enemy there anyway. He would end up leaving the point or revealing himself somehow... especially after the Heartseeker's camera adjustments got changed. If a Warrior or Ranger can contest a point while completely immune to direct damage, there's no reason a Thief shouldn't be able to in Stealth in today's game.

>

> Most of the complaints about Stealth are just from annoyances or frustration, not from actual balance problems. As a Thief, I could go on and on about Warriors, Mesmers, Guardians, Necromancers, Rangers, etc... because they completely outclass the Thief in PvP combat. Until Stealth (or whatever) actually allows a Thief to fight 1v1 on point with an even shot at winning, it's a non-issue in PvP.

 

I don’t disagree, as a thief main, but I want to clarify that a cap of 12 seconds means that a person can only be continuously invisible for 12 seconds before being made visible again. So even a stealth camping thief would have a brief window on vulnerability or need to use Shadow Meld to remove the reveal (assuming one was applied).

 

I’m not sure letting stealth characters contest is the best strategy though because of larger points on mid Foefire and such. The new larger AoE reveal is probably the direction we are going in tbh. Anet seems to want to limit use of permastealth though counterplay rather than hard caps that make such a thing possible.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > 15k+ invisa backstabs are impractical for healthy combat

>

> You're right, it IS impractical for combat, which is why nobody uses builds like that in real pvp matches. Since you'd have to be playing on a build with 11k health and giving up something useful for assassins signet.

>

> Meanwhile mesmer is chaining 20k bursts from stealth and people are whining about kitten backstab.

>

> SMH.

 

I just used it as an example....allattacks from stealth ruin combat not just thf, mes to

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > 15k+ invisa backstabs are impractical for healthy combat

> >

> > You're right, it IS impractical for combat, which is why nobody uses builds like that in real pvp matches. Since you'd have to be playing on a build with 11k health and giving up something useful for assassins signet.

> >

> > Meanwhile mesmer is chaining 20k bursts from stealth and people are whining about kitten backstab.

> >

> > SMH.

>

> I just used it as an example....allattacks from stealth ruin combat not just thf, mes to

 

We'll that's interesting since all the changes being talked about here are in regards to thief, despite the fact that mes IS capable of one shotting people from stealth and thief is

typically not, even with zerker gear and a one shot build its still pretty hard for a thief to one shot from stealth in real pvp since most pvp builds run 20k health pools.

 

Basically, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what stealth does that a regular ability wouldn't be more useful to the team in pvp.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > 15k+ invisa backstabs are impractical for healthy combat

> > >

> > > You're right, it IS impractical for combat, which is why nobody uses builds like that in real pvp matches. Since you'd have to be playing on a build with 11k health and giving up something useful for assassins signet.

> > >

> > > Meanwhile mesmer is chaining 20k bursts from stealth and people are whining about kitten backstab.

> > >

> > > SMH.

> >

> > I just used it as an example....allattacks from stealth ruin combat not just thf, mes to

>

> We'll that's interesting since all the changes being talked about here are in regards to thief, despite the fact that mes IS capable of one shotting people from stealth and thief is

> typically not, even with zerker gear and a one shot build its still pretty hard for a thief to one shot from stealth in real pvp since most pvp builds run 20k health pools.

>

> Basically, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what stealth does that a regular ability wouldn't be more useful to the team in pvp.

 

You’re going to be waiting a while. It seems to me the majority of people coming to the forums want one thing- to wail away on someone that doesn’t move, attack, or any other action that prevent them from killing someone. And since stealth drops target(but doesn’t prevent damage as most want you to believe) they can’t just AA for the win.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I don’t disagree, as a thief main, but I want to clarify that a cap of 12 seconds means that a person can only be continuously invisible for 12 seconds before being made visible again. So even a stealth camping thief would have a brief window on vulnerability or need to use Shadow Meld to remove the reveal (assuming one was applied).

 

Yes, that's what I was thinking. That's why I mentioned 24 seconds out of 25. The Thief would sit in Stealth for 12 seconds, pop out for a second, just long enough to reapply Stealth, and camp for another 12 seconds. Why the Thief would do that, I don't know... unless deep in enemy territory in WvW.

 

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I’m not sure letting stealth characters contest is the best strategy though because of larger points on mid Foefire and such. The new larger AoE reveal is probably the direction we are going in tbh. Anet seems to want to limit use of permastealth though counterplay rather than hard caps that make such a thing possible.

 

If nothing else, I would say a Thief should at least be allowed to contest a point for up to 4 seconds of Stealth. In PvP, Revealed last for 4 seconds. Most applications of Stealth only last 3 seconds (or 4 with Shadow Arts). It seems quite fair. It would actually allow a Thief to fight to its full potential on point without giving up control of the point.

 

As it is now, the Thief is at a severe disadvantage on point. To continue contesting a point, not only is the Thief locked out of using its Stealth Attacks (Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc.), the entire Shadow Arts traitline is completely void... a traitline that is severely needed to survive conditions.

 

I definitely understand that chasing an invisible target around large points could be quite frustrating. However, AoE's and traps that take up entire small points are just as frustrating. Such large AoE's and traps would be a decent counter to Stealth camping on large points... not to mention the Reveals you spoke of.

 

Besides, a perma-Stealth Thief just running around a point without attacking wouldn't be nearly as bad as past fiascos... unkillable Elementalist bunkers or Dragonhunters that could instakill a Thief on the other side of the map with traps on a small point.

 

I'm not saying it's the best approach. But the Thief is in a bad spot combat-wise in PvP. All of the game mechanics are against it. Ironically, it's like a real thief trying to sneak around a crowd and steal stuff in broad daylight... or rob a bank during business hours.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> when are we going to have solid counters for this? , even blocks have counters but stealth is the most broken mechanic in the game when you combining it with classes that can 1-2 shoot you

 

'I’ve always believed that it’s inherently unfair that any class can stealth when there are no or few skills to physically break those using it, out of it. To then provide a class with stealth the ability to deal massive burst damage is a recipe for frustration and unsurprisingly, players sought to find a solution'

 

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

 

Gw2 stealth is a poor design mechanic which goes against competitive scenery in the competitive gaming industry.

Frustrations/Unfairness= Loss of Players including potential players

 

-have a good day-

[saerni.2584]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > when are we going to have solid counters for this? , even blocks have counters but stealth is the most broken mechanic in the game when you combining it with classes that can 1-2 shoot you

>

> 'I’ve always believed that it’s inherently unfair that any class can stealth when there are no or few skills to physically break those using it, out of it. To then provide a class with stealth the ability to deal massive burst damage is a recipe for frustration and unsurprisingly, players sought to find a solution'

>

> http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

>

> Gw2 stealth is a poor design mechanic which goes against competitive scenery in the competitive gaming industry.

> Frustrations/Unfairness= Loss of Players including potential players

>

> -have a good day-

 

Article from January 15, 2015. HoT released October 23, 2015. Currently is March 23, 2018 more than three years after the article.

 

Reveal has been added to multiple builds. Celestial was removed and then introduced at a lower level. Many professions now generate tons of boons. Invulnerable, evasion and block has increased significantly. Healing has increased significantly.

 

You can’t cite to a three year old op ed and expect it to be taken seriously.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > when are we going to have solid counters for this? , even blocks have counters but stealth is the most broken mechanic in the game when you combining it with classes that can 1-2 shoot you

> >

> > 'I’ve always believed that it’s inherently unfair that any class can stealth when there are no or few skills to physically break those using it, out of it. To then provide a class with stealth the ability to deal massive burst damage is a recipe for frustration and unsurprisingly, players sought to find a solution'

> >

> > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

> >

> > Gw2 stealth is a poor design mechanic which goes against competitive scenery in the competitive gaming industry.

> > Frustrations/Unfairness= Loss of Players including potential players

> >

> > -have a good day-

>

> Article from January 15, 2015. HoT released October 23, 2015. Currently is March 23, 2018 more than three years after the article.

>

> Reveal has been added to multiple builds. Celestial was removed and then introduced at a lower level. Many professions now generate tons of boons. Invulnerable, evasion and block has increased significantly. Healing has increased significantly.

>

> You can’t cite to a three year old op ed and expect it to be taken seriously.

 

**'The more you know about the past, the better prepared you are for the future'**

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> 'I’ve always believed that it’s inherently unfair that any class can stealth when there are no or few skills to physically break those using it, out of it. To then provide a class with stealth the ability to deal massive burst damage is a recipe for frustration and unsurprisingly, players sought to find a solution'

 

Unfortunately, there's a lot of inherent unfairness in GW2.

 

For one, Stealth is a self-breaking effect. Once its time duration runs out, it ends. It is no different than a boon. Resistance is literally more unfair to a condition build.

 

Offensively, Stealth can only re-position or mask an attack. Stealth does not contribute anything else to a fight. Immobilize/stun does the same thing in a different way.

 

Stealth does not allow a point to be contested. However, Defy Pain and Signet of Stone do allow it as well as completely void any direct damage... which is extremely unfair to a power build.

 

Guardians and Rangers have very lethal traps that cover an entire point. Mesmers and Necromancers have wells that cover an entire point. Necromancers have marks that cover an entire point. Rangers have Rapid Fire and Revenants have Unrelenting Assault that take two dodges to avoid...

And what do Thieves have that can counter? Stealth? Not enough. Evades? Not enough. Resistance? No. Stability? No. Reflection? No. Protection? No. AoE's? No...

Thieves get decent single-target direct damage... most of which are from melee attacks... leading to kamikaze tactics when on a point.

 

Talk about unfairness.

 

Medium armor, low health, no defensive boons. Thieves get to hide and run around... but so can many other professions.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > > when are we going to have solid counters for this? , even blocks have counters but stealth is the most broken mechanic in the game when you combining it with classes that can 1-2 shoot you

> > >

> > > 'I’ve always believed that it’s inherently unfair that any class can stealth when there are no or few skills to physically break those using it, out of it. To then provide a class with stealth the ability to deal massive burst damage is a recipe for frustration and unsurprisingly, players sought to find a solution'

> > >

> > > http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

> > >

> > > Gw2 stealth is a poor design mechanic which goes against competitive scenery in the competitive gaming industry.

> > > Frustrations/Unfairness= Loss of Players including potential players

> > >

> > > -have a good day-

> >

> > Article from January 15, 2015. HoT released October 23, 2015. Currently is March 23, 2018 more than three years after the article.

> >

> > Reveal has been added to multiple builds. Celestial was removed and then introduced at a lower level. Many professions now generate tons of boons. Invulnerable, evasion and block has increased significantly. Healing has increased significantly.

> >

> > You can’t cite to a three year old op ed and expect it to be taken seriously.

>

> **'The more you know about the past, the better prepared you are for the future'**

 

The article in question is blaming thief and mesmer for people being unable to use berserker amulets. The truth is that berserker amulets suck because you get focused and die, regardless of the class opposing you, not just thief or mesmer.

 

Hell, even thieves themselves don't take berserker amulets, and they're the ones supposedly forcing the meta into bunker because they "cant be targetted".

 

This article is a joke and the guy writing it is a baddie. Ask sindrener why he uses marauder instead of berserker, that'll clear up any confusion about this article.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> The article in question is blaming thief and mesmer for people being unable to use berserker amulets. The truth is that berserker amulets suck because you get focused and die, regardless of the class opposing you, not just thief or mesmer.

 

The article didn't even make sense. In those days, Stealth wasn't even necessary to ambush and kill a squishy target. Between Sleight of Hand, Basilisk Venom, and Panic Strike, a Thief's opening burst was devastating. The only reason to attack from Stealth was for an initial Backstab into the Steal. I know how those bursts felt... I played Zerker Thief, and got pounced on numerous times. Even still, I don't remember EVER being instantly downed by a Thief because I had my thumb on a stun breaker at all times. And if I can do it, anybody can do it.

 

Most Thieves didn't even go full glass back then. They ran the equivalent of Deadly Arts/Shadow Arts/Trickery. I always ran Critical Strikes instead of Shadow Arts, so I hit even harder than most. It was never enough to spike any non-squishy down quickly, though.

 

As for PvP, I did run an "ambush assassin" build sometimes. It was a hybrid trapper/signet build. I laid a Shadow Trap on a point, then ran away. When the trap went off, I activated my Assassin's Signet, teleported to my trap, laid a Tripwire on top of the target, then Backstabbed the prone enemy. The way my Thief was built, I got full 25 stacks of Might from traps and the signet, and did extra damage to stunned targets. I could Backstab for 17k, which instantly downed other Thieves.

 

Unfortunately, Thieves and the occasional Mesmer were my only successful victims. Others professions had too much Stability, armor, or passives. If my Backstab and following Heartseeker weren't enough to finish the job, I was in hot water. I had no utilities left, and was lucky if I could even run away. The point being that I had no need to stay in Stealth. The only reason for it was to gain access to Backstab. I could have easily laid the Tripwire when I laid the Shadow Trap. It was a one-trick pony with no combat ability. And that was before all the passive defenses and elites came into play.

 

In today's game, a glass thief is as dangerous as a glass window. Very easy to break, and you may get sliced up a bit if you jump through one... but you'll survive quite easily.

 

Going back to the article, the Thief was just the merciful executioner. If a Thief could down a zerker build before they reached a team fight, that poor zerker would have been insta-downed by the actual big hitters. It really had nothing to do with Stealth whatsoever. Stealth is just the scapegoat.