Math.5123 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season. > > > > > > > > Suggestions to fix this kitten: > > > > Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing > > > > Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s > > > > mes needs less access to instant cc > > > > mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy > > > > Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone > > Fun fact time, mesmer shield block has the highest cool down of any block in the game with no corresponding trait to lower it’s cool down as it starts after you use it a second time. If you didn’t block anything not only did you waste the block but you had half the block duration of warriors block while having a cool down anywhere between 20% and 50% longer than the warriors block. > > Instant CC is mantra and diversion, magic bullet has 1/2s cast, signet of domination is about as useful as soggy toilet paper but is closer to instant at 1/4s. However mesmer has a lot of on interrupt traits, ever tried to play and interrupt build without fast casting CCs? It’s an exercise in frustration and easily countered. I can get behind lowering the duration of instant cast CCs though, so mantra is more for interrupting than for getting CS 1s stun. Most complaints are actually about confounding suggestions not the CCs. > > Exhaustion was lazy on daredevil and it’s worse on mirage. Stunbreak on dodge is too strong to be in the game, it shouldn’t be in the game and I’m sick of people even thinking there’s a solution to balance it, there isn’t and the stunbreak should be removed from elusive mind. > > Sword ambush losing the clone? Yeah I guess the skill is a bit overloaded but losing the daze would make sword ambush from clones have no effect at all (which defeats the point of infinite horizon almost entirely) so I don’t think the daze should be removed, especially as it’s a 1/4s daze. > > Phantasms don’t need a unilateral nerf, this is lazy and a silly idea. They need balancing individually but more importantly Mesmer shouldn’t be able to take 1 trait and see a huge boost to personal damage and phantasm damage or choose one trait and get a 100% damage buff to phantasms. At this point it’s probably time to make phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, might etc just like normal weapon skills do on other classes then adjust the damage. To anyone that doesn’t know, phantasms afaik don’t benefit from runes, sigils, might (without a trait) or percentage damage buffs. Mesmer block is also the only block with a double (quadruple clone generation) attached to it. It's also the only block that hits for 12k if you don't Dodge phantasms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggestions to fix this kitten: > > > > > > Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing > > > > > > Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s > > > > > > mes needs less access to instant cc > > > > > > mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy > > > > > > Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone > > > > Fun fact time, mesmer shield block has the highest cool down of any block in the game with no corresponding trait to lower it’s cool down as it starts after you use it a second time. If you didn’t block anything not only did you waste the block but you had half the block duration of warriors block while having a cool down anywhere between 20% and 50% longer than the warriors block. > > > > Instant CC is mantra and diversion, magic bullet has 1/2s cast, signet of domination is about as useful as soggy toilet paper but is closer to instant at 1/4s. However mesmer has a lot of on interrupt traits, ever tried to play and interrupt build without fast casting CCs? It’s an exercise in frustration and easily countered. I can get behind lowering the duration of instant cast CCs though, so mantra is more for interrupting than for getting CS 1s stun. Most complaints are actually about confounding suggestions not the CCs. > > > > Exhaustion was lazy on daredevil and it’s worse on mirage. Stunbreak on dodge is too strong to be in the game, it shouldn’t be in the game and I’m sick of people even thinking there’s a solution to balance it, there isn’t and the stunbreak should be removed from elusive mind. > > > > Sword ambush losing the clone? Yeah I guess the skill is a bit overloaded but losing the daze would make sword ambush from clones have no effect at all (which defeats the point of infinite horizon almost entirely) so I don’t think the daze should be removed, especially as it’s a 1/4s daze. > > > > Phantasms don’t need a unilateral nerf, this is lazy and a silly idea. They need balancing individually but more importantly Mesmer shouldn’t be able to take 1 trait and see a huge boost to personal damage and phantasm damage or choose one trait and get a 100% damage buff to phantasms. At this point it’s probably time to make phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, might etc just like normal weapon skills do on other classes then adjust the damage. To anyone that doesn’t know, phantasms afaik don’t benefit from runes, sigils, might (without a trait) or percentage damage buffs. > > Mesmer block is also the only block with a double (quadruple clone generation) attached to it. It's also the only block that hits for 12k if you don't Dodge phantasms And your point is moot because you can prevent the summons by not attacking, dodging the end of the channel and using a stun break to not attack the phantasm. The phantasm itself does little damage, it does a whole when you sit there and attack it because takes that damage in and reflects it back at you. Much like that one Pokémon move that would build up for 2-3 turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Lets get some correct terminology first: * Skill Floor: Minimum amount of skill required to play the class competently. (AKA: you must have this much skill to be able to stand on the floor) * Skill Ceiling: The maximum potential of the class/build given that you have mastered it (while standing at your tallest, you reach the ceiling) * Competency/Competent: This is where things become very subjective. I'd argue it means being able to contend with the absolute best player(s) of that class given a similar situation (like lasting around 13-15 seconds on your build when jumped by an 2 thieves, when the best player of your build lasts around 14-16 seconds but average ones last 5-10 seconds). The player base in this game seems to be of the opinion that a high skill floor means the class/build deserves to have a higher skill ceiling. I would argue that skill ceiling should depend on skill floor but only so much. It's not necessarily good to award a high skill ceiling just because the floor is a bit higher tha most others. Some classes/builds are objectively more demanding (have more skills/mechanics/require more attention) than others and thus have a higher skill floor by definition which isn't something Anet can really change without major overhaul. IMO, balancing should be focused more on skill ceiling. OP would argue that mirage fits this bill - the ceiling is too high for how low the floor is, even if that floor is higher than most other builds'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. But they can't win a 2v1. You just said in a previous comment they just hold people. If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the fuck does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? You claim mesmer can win 1x2 ? Call zan/sindrener to 1x2 you . I would count seconds till you die . :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > But they can't win a 2v1. You just said in a previous comment they just hold people. > > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? Because the original question was who could win, not kill, a 2v1. You don’t have to stomp an opponent to win. You’re winning if you’re holding them there until you have a team come help they’re forced to leave etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggestions to fix this kitten: > > > > > > Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing > > > > > > Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s > > > > > > mes needs less access to instant cc > > > > > > mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy > > > > > > Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone > > > > Fun fact time, mesmer shield block has the highest cool down of any block in the game with no corresponding trait to lower it’s cool down as it starts after you use it a second time. If you didn’t block anything not only did you waste the block but you had half the block duration of warriors block while having a cool down anywhere between 20% and 50% longer than the warriors block. > > > > Instant CC is mantra and diversion, magic bullet has 1/2s cast, signet of domination is about as useful as soggy toilet paper but is closer to instant at 1/4s. However mesmer has a lot of on interrupt traits, ever tried to play and interrupt build without fast casting CCs? It’s an exercise in frustration and easily countered. I can get behind lowering the duration of instant cast CCs though, so mantra is more for interrupting than for getting CS 1s stun. Most complaints are actually about confounding suggestions not the CCs. > > > > Exhaustion was lazy on daredevil and it’s worse on mirage. Stunbreak on dodge is too strong to be in the game, it shouldn’t be in the game and I’m sick of people even thinking there’s a solution to balance it, there isn’t and the stunbreak should be removed from elusive mind. > > > > Sword ambush losing the clone? Yeah I guess the skill is a bit overloaded but losing the daze would make sword ambush from clones have no effect at all (which defeats the point of infinite horizon almost entirely) so I don’t think the daze should be removed, especially as it’s a 1/4s daze. > > > > Phantasms don’t need a unilateral nerf, this is lazy and a silly idea. They need balancing individually but more importantly Mesmer shouldn’t be able to take 1 trait and see a huge boost to personal damage and phantasm damage or choose one trait and get a 100% damage buff to phantasms. At this point it’s probably time to make phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, might etc just like normal weapon skills do on other classes then adjust the damage. To anyone that doesn’t know, phantasms afaik don’t benefit from runes, sigils, might (without a trait) or percentage damage buffs. > > Mesmer block is also the only block with a double (quadruple clone generation) attached to it. It's also the only block that hits for 12k if you don't Dodge phantasms Well yeah because other classes don’t have phantasms. There are blocks that will do damage after the block, the phantasm has a 0.9 damage mod, ill list skills that block then do damage in order of highest to lowest damage mod: (Shield of wrath if you don’t pop it with 3 attacks 2.5) Protectors strike 2.0 Illusionary riposte 2.0 Counterblow 2.0 Arcane shield 1.5 Counterattack 1.3 Shock shield 1.25 Illusionary counter 1.0 Echo of memory/deja vu 0.9 Riposte 0.5 Warding rift 0.2 As far as blocks are concerned the mesmer shield isn’t anything special and complaining about it only shows how little you look at what problems are. Had someone said illusionary riposte does too much damage for its cool down I’d agree entirely especially as the offhand phantasm does a lot more damage and cleave now it does blurred frenzy. Now obviously you would also look at what else is on the class and weapon set but all things considered it would be hard to really find a justifiable complaint about offhand shield on mesmer now traits have changed especially when not hitting the block gives such a huge advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 One other huge thing that hasn't been mentioned: Such a high number of Mesmer clones serves to soak cleave limits in team fights. Lots of clones = lots of unintended damage mitigation. Meaning, if there is a 3v3 at mid and a Mesmer joins in, If a Scourge is dropping Sand Shades or a Spellbreaker is using Full Counter, whatever, those AoE attacks only have priority for targeting against the player actually targeted and that counts only for the first strike in the cleave limit. Then the cleave limit begins counting towards whatever targets are closest to the source of the attack, which often ends up being clone spam. in other words, those clones are completely redirecting important team fight cleave damage values into nothing, rather than allowing the cleave limits to hit players. Most players would never notice that but this is one of the more broken aspects of Mesmer and AIs in general, which Mesmer spits out far more AIs than anything else in the game at this point. Arenanet needs to add a patch where it gives a targeting option in the options panel: "Cleaves target players first -box- check mark, yes please." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus.3608 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > Updated the OP to contain suggestions on how to nerf this nonsense without gutting the class. I don't main mesmer, but I don't want it destroyed. Which is better than I can say for everyone who spent the last 6 months gutting necro, again. I like what you're saying here because I don't want mesmer to be garbage, but I do feel like it will take a pretty serious nerf to invalidate the class, a significant nerf is needed. Currently mesmer moves faster than thief, does more burst damage than coalescence, has more defenses than probably any other class and doesn't have the glass hp level for it, and still has stealth. On top of all of that it also gets clones, which even if YOU know which one is the real player, it breaks tab targeting and clicking can be almost impossible with so many clones in the way. This should never have gotten the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > One other huge thing that hasn't been mentioned: Such a high number of Mesmer clones serves to soak cleave limits in team fights. Lots of clones = lots of unintended damage mitigation. Meaning, if there is a 3v3 at mid and a Mesmer joins in, If a Scourge is dropping Sand Shades or a Spellbreaker is using Full Counter, whatever, those AoE attacks only have priority for targeting against the player actually targeted and that counts only for the first strike in the cleave limit. Then the cleave limit begins counting towards whatever targets are closest to the source of the attack, which often ends up being clone spam. in other words, those clones are completely redirecting important team fight cleave damage values into nothing, rather than allowing the cleave limits to hit players. > > Most players would never notice that but this is one of the more broken aspects of Mesmer and AIs in general, which Mesmer spits out far more AIs than anything else in the game at this point. Arenanet needs to add a patch where it gives a targeting option in the options panel: "Cleaves target players first -box- check mark, yes please." This problem would be more or less solved by limiting clones to 3(as they already are) and phantasms to 3. Rather than having a phantasms being spammed via Chrono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? > You claim mesmer can win 1x2 ? Call zan/sindrener to 1x2 you . I would count seconds till you die . :) > > No? Where did you even read the word mesmer in my comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > > > But they can't win a 2v1. You just said in a previous comment they just hold people. > > > > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? > > Because the original question was who could win, not kill, a 2v1. You don’t have to stomp an opponent to win. You’re winning if you’re holding them there until you have a team come help they’re forced to leave etc. Who's making anyone 2v1 the druid? Any build can stalemate them 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > > > > > But they can't win a 2v1. You just said in a previous comment they just hold people. > > > > > > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? > > > > Because the original question was who could win, not kill, a 2v1. You don’t have to stomp an opponent to win. You’re winning if you’re holding them there until you have a team come help they’re forced to leave etc. > > Who's making anyone 2v1 the druid? Any build can stalemate them 1v1. Who’s making anyone 2v1 a Mesmer? Or a scourge, warrior, engi, etc. If you’re a competent player you should be able to stalemate or beat a Mesmer. So what’s your point exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > > > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > > > > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > > > > > > > But they can't win a 2v1. You just said in a previous comment they just hold people. > > > > > > > > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? > > > > > > Because the original question was who could win, not kill, a 2v1. You don’t have to stomp an opponent to win. You’re winning if you’re holding them there until you have a team come help they’re forced to leave etc. > > > > Who's making anyone 2v1 the druid? Any build can stalemate them 1v1. > > Who’s making anyone 2v1 a Mesmer? Or a scourge, warrior, engi, etc. > > If you’re a competent player you should be able to stalemate or beat a Mesmer. So what’s your point exactly? That's not the same at all? Lol. If you think a worse healbot with no damage and no boonshare is anywhere on the same level as a spec that has 20k bursts and stunbreak on dodge, well cya pointless conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > > > > > > > > > But they can't win a 2v1. You just said in a previous comment they just hold people. > > > > > > > > > > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? > > > > > > > > Because the original question was who could win, not kill, a 2v1. You don’t have to stomp an opponent to win. You’re winning if you’re holding them there until you have a team come help they’re forced to leave etc. > > > > > > Who's making anyone 2v1 the druid? Any build can stalemate them 1v1. > > > > Who’s making anyone 2v1 a Mesmer? Or a scourge, warrior, engi, etc. > > > > If you’re a competent player you should be able to stalemate or beat a Mesmer. So what’s your point exactly? > > That's not the same at all? Lol. If you think a worse healbot with no damage and no boonshare is anywhere on the same level as a spec that has 20k bursts and stunbreak on dodge, well cya pointless conversation. Obviously because you have it in your mind that Mesmer is this almighty god machine and it’s not. Yes it needs nerfs. But to say it can’t be killed, is well ridiculous. Then when the question was asked which classes can win a 2v1 you want to throw on stipulations. You don’t have to stomp someone to win, holding a point while under a 2v1 is winning. Plain and simple. Yes, no one makes two people stay but for kittensakes no one makes you enter a dang match either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 You complain about mesmers having too much defense and sustain, but then in the same sentence turn around and cry that adding exhaustion to EM is the correct way to nerf it instead of actually removing teh stunbreak? Clearly there is no bias in your post, none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayAction.9056 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 If you have not made top 250 as mes main you do not fully understand the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid will not win a 2v1 lol it can barely win a 1v1 if the enemy is kitten enough > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not true. If you’re holding 2 people on far that puts the other team at a disadvantage. You are causing an outnumbered fight on the other two points which means your team should win 4v3. And this happens across all ranks. I can’t tell you how many times in plat I’ve had Druids tanking 1v2 and at times 1v3. In Platinum. That’s what a bunker spec is for, it wins via attrition and it does well at that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming the 2v1 is indefinite, which if given equal skill and the right classes (specifically thief or mesmer to +1) it is not. It is easy to either burst them down or at least make them rotate away then someone can pick up the 1v1. And druid should NEVER be able to kill 2 people v 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Druid has like no damage since shout might stack build got killed. So they specced for more survivability which apparently being an inferior lesser support with no damage is OP still lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn’t have to be indefinite. Once you start snowballing the other team, which you should, it doesn’t matter. > > > > > > > Again, killing doesn’t matter, it wins via attrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did I ever say they were OP? No I said they can win a 1v2 and explained my reasoning why. > > > > > > > > > > > > But they can't win a 2v1. You just said in a previous comment they just hold people. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you or one of your teammates die 2v1 to a druid ever I am so sorry. "Wins via attrition" the kitten does that even mean if you aren't talking about killing? > > > > > > > > > > Because the original question was who could win, not kill, a 2v1. You don’t have to stomp an opponent to win. You’re winning if you’re holding them there until you have a team come help they’re forced to leave etc. > > > > > > > > Who's making anyone 2v1 the druid? Any build can stalemate them 1v1. > > > > > > Who’s making anyone 2v1 a Mesmer? Or a scourge, warrior, engi, etc. > > > > > > If you’re a competent player you should be able to stalemate or beat a Mesmer. So what’s your point exactly? > > > > That's not the same at all? Lol. If you think a worse healbot with no damage and no boonshare is anywhere on the same level as a spec that has 20k bursts and stunbreak on dodge, well cya pointless conversation. > > Obviously because you have it in your mind that Mesmer is this almighty god machine and it’s not. Yes it needs nerfs. But to say it can’t be killed, is well ridiculous. > Then when the question was asked which classes can win a 2v1 you want to throw on stipulations. You don’t have to stomp someone to win, holding a point while under a 2v1 is winning. Plain and simple. Yes, no one makes two people stay but for kittensakes no one makes you enter a dang match either. Nope wrong I haven't even mentioned mesmer needing a nerf once this entire thread lmfao I came in to defend Druid. Let me know when you're done making shit up and then I'll read what you type, the victim and persecution complex on you mesmer mains... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Egorum.9506" said: > > Because they pretty clearly don't. I've played about 300 games on mesmer over the last 5 years and i've been handling 2v1s like it's no problem all afternoon. The class has way too much access to blocks, evades, and invulns. It needs some time on the butcher block before the next season. > > > > > > They have a very high skill ceiling and always have. Great players can work wonders with a Mesmer. On the other hand, **they always used to have a low skill floor so that bad players couldn't do much with a Mesmer**. **NOW, they have both a high skill ceiling and high skill floor,** which is entirely broken in all aspects considering how ridiculous over powered the class is. I think you got that the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Low skill floor=anyone can pick it up and perform well High skill floor=it is difficult for a beginner to do well with Low skill ceiling=even played well it is difficult to succeed with due to lacking mechanics or tools High skill ceiling=difficult to use well, possessing a plethora of tools to use and abuse, s tier Currently mesmer has a low skill floor (see video) and a high skill ceiling. This means anyone can pick it up quickly, and in the hands of skilled users they are even more powerful. A bad combination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kondor.2904 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 So, if I make a clip where i kill random ppl 1v2 and add that i'm bad, i can call it a justified proof that the class/build is op and has a low skill floor, right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > So, if I make a clip where i kill random ppl 1v2 and add that i'm bad, i can call it a justified proof that the class/build is op and has a low skill floor, right ? Pretty much yeah you’re right on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted March 24, 2018 Author Share Posted March 24, 2018 > @"Kondor.2904" said: > So, if I make a clip where i kill random ppl 1v2 and add that i'm bad, i can call it a justified proof that the class/build is op and has a low skill floor, right ? I mean, do you have another way to prove that? read what you just wrote, slowly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > Show me any class other than spellbreaker that someone can pick up and win 2v1s on in a day and we'll talk man. Til then, mes is busted as kitten, and greatly needs nerfs before the patch goes through. > > Blocks, invulns, evades, teleports, blurs, whatever you want to call them or pick apart the semantics of each they are all damage mitigation, and mesmer has too much of it. > > It kitten out phantasms that hit for 8k. You have 2 dodges. Mesmer produces 12 of them in one rotation, 24 with soe, more with cs (how many more is up to you!). But i know, i know, just dodge! I've only been playing a little over 2 years and I rarely pvp...but I can roll silver players 1v2 as well. So what? If you're decent and they aren't, it won't matter which class you play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 24, 2018 Share Posted March 24, 2018 > @"Arcaedus.7290" said: > Lets get some correct terminology first: > > * Skill Floor: Minimum amount of skill required to play the class competently. (AKA: you must have this much skill to be able to stand on the floor) > * Skill Ceiling: The maximum potential of the class/build given that you have mastered it (while standing at your tallest, you reach the ceiling) > * Competency/Competent: This is where things become very subjective. I'd argue it means being able to contend with the absolute best player(s) of that class given a similar situation (like lasting around 13-15 seconds on your build when jumped by an 2 thieves, when the best player of your build lasts around 14-16 seconds but average ones last 5-10 seconds). > > The player base in this game seems to be of the opinion that a high skill floor means the class/build deserves to have a higher skill ceiling. I would argue that skill ceiling should depend on skill floor but only so much. It's not necessarily good to award a high skill ceiling just because the floor is a bit higher tha most others. Some classes/builds are objectively more demanding (have more skills/mechanics/require more attention) than others and thus have a higher skill floor by definition which isn't something Anet can really change without major overhaul. IMO, balancing should be focused more on skill ceiling. OP would argue that mirage fits this bill - the ceiling is too high for how low the floor is, even if that floor is higher than most other builds'. Thanks for the clear up, times are changing with each new generation, sort of similar to how genders work now days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now