Signet of Vampirism... What?

[Obtena.7952]

^^ That shows a serious lack of understanding of the concept of the skill. I mean, how else is Anet going to reward you with health if you aren't being hit, or hitting someone else with the Vampirism, life sucking theme? Again, this isn't intended to be a heal over time. The way it's implemented supports the theme, of the class of the skill.

[MoonCrash.6713]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"MoonCrash.6713" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"MoonCrash.6713" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"MoonCrash.6713" said:

> > > > > > > Just so you know, i'm not saying that is op (try it for yourself, I think is actually pretty decent), but that is the idea behind SoV and the build in which is supposed to be used.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have used it plenty of times and its decent maybe in pve but its meh, any other healing signet out there from a passive and active standpoint out classes it imo.

> > > > > > Passively the big 500 tics you get from getting hit look like alot but they are really minor. Because while in shroud you can be bursted for more than 15k damage in 1 second you only would have gotten 1 tic of healing for what was several hits that just obliterated your shroud or you hp if you happen to not be in it. Ideally the cost of it only activating when you get hit shouldnt be limited by a icd. In pve it means you would never die to anything that was not an elite which I can understand the reasoning behind the cooldown at that point.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > However in pvp it needs more than just a heal % adjustment or a cd adjustment for using its active. Not to mention the increase life force drain to reaper makes signets less effective if you run the signet trait.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can only think again, it's outclassed because there aren't very many healing skills out there that have an offensive component on a target. As long as necro has this 'life siphoning' theme attached to it, you can count on getting the short end of the stick of heals and things related.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > > > The odd thing about Signets of Suffering is that it strongly rewards camping shroud as much as possible. SoS is weak outside of shroud.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Contrast that with Reaper's Shroud degeneration increase and Scourge's Desert Shroud LF cost.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yup, just more evidence that Anet wants to encourage Shroud play. How else does Anet make a failed mechanic work on a class? by strongly encouraging (some would say forcing, though the pedantry police would come running) people to use it every chance they get.

> > > >

> > > > Play scourge or change profession, noone is forcing you

> > >

> > > I don't get your point ... Forcing me to what? What does playing scourge have to do with how Signet of Vampirism works? you still have to spend lots of time in Shroud, even as a Scourge, to take advantage of shroud traits and effects. Maybe you should take more time to read the posts and calm down a bit before reacting to them.

> >

> > Do you see mesmers without clones? Mages without elements? Every classed is "forced" to play its basic unique mechanic, and if you don't like shroud, just change profession. You could even play scourge since its shroud isn't that big of a deal, could be any standard skill.

> >

> > Btw, as Scourge you can't even spend a lot of time in shroud since it last 5 sec on a 20 sec cd, soon 30 in pvp, a lot of traits don't even work well because they proc when shroud ends and you don't even have the 2nd health bar, so shroud is just an aoe + shield most of the time.

>

> I still don't get what the point of your post was to me. Playing Scourge or changing profession was a thoughtless response to my post.

>

> To be honest, yes I do see classes that don't play their defining elements, because for most classes, they aren't overly dependent on their defining element. That's what makes necros seem like they are getting the shaft ... TOO much of what makes the class is dumped into shroud so you MUST play your defining element to even access many of your useful skills; the WORST part is that what you access in shroud is a fixed set of skills (at least for core and Reaper) so you instantly lose a portion of your selected build skills when in it. That risk/reward profile is the pits because honestly, the Shrouds just aren't good enough for me to give up a build that I've though up and made thoughtful choices on. This is actually the only reason Scourge is so good ... my life force pool is useful for skills that AREN'T just limited to shroud AND I'm not transformed to a second rate set of skills unrelated to my build when I use Desert Shroud.

>

>

 

Nothing special, you said "shroud is a failed mechanic", "anet is forcing necro to use it as much as possible", and I answered that it's common for many professions to heavily rely on their core mechanic, so that's just how it is, if you don't like it you could "play scourge (since DS isn't that special) or another class.

[Obtena.7952]

That's where you and me differ ... I don't think it's common for many professions to rely on their core mechanic as heavily as Necro does AND be crippled by it at the same time. Anyways, your response to me was flippant, unhelpful and unnecessary. I don't need to be patronized because I see flaws with the class (just like many others do as well) so count yourself lucky you're getting as cordial a response as you have. If you don't think your response was 'anything special', then even you admit it's not worth making in the first place.

 

To be honest though, you might be completely right ... maybe this is just the intention of the class, to provide that 'heavy core mechanic reliance' experience for players that want it. I still like the class and still play it extensively, but I can still feel there are things I don't like about it without the chirp from people telling me "love it or leave it". Clearly, Anet recognizes this as well, otherwise Desert Shroud would just be another second-rate skillset locking me out of my regular non-shroud build kind of concept ...

 

So in short, I think you are WAY off base here and it would be best to think about how you decide to respond to me in the future ... if you have something meaningful to say.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The skill would be crazy strong if it didn't have such a long ICD for its active relative to its duration.

 

I think the problem with it is how it allows allies to deal so much siphon damage (which ignores immunities). That's potentially a serious issue in group engages if allowed to be individually strong.

 

There's already one selfless heal being Well of Blood. It'd make a lot more sense for SoV to be selfish and based on outgoing strikes akin to the old version of Assassin's Signet with reduced or removed ICD on the active and slightly nerfed passive, as it'd make it a much better offensive-oriented heal with some great synergy to core/reaper shroud, axe, dagger, and gs which could proc it more than once in relative succession.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

I've been using SoV in open PVE and at first it sucked (no pun intended), because I had no Healing Power. Switching my build to have about 1000HP and adjusting traits its now working well. When I get bursted I go into shroud and by the time I leave it I am 3/4 to full health usually. Build:

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRQQNAnYWn0ICt0gl2AO2A0uhjchCGANQCMD7lYKk7wWnvA-jhCBABpoNAKleTpMIkDBQfPAgtt/4BzfAcGACS9HZVCCA-e

 

[Sublimatio.6981]

lets think about the logic of this skill:

 

"I lose if I get hit and die, but I have healing skill in case I get hit, to help me,"

"The healing skill works only when I get hit, which I should be avoiding in the first place."

 

Also thematically, vampires are aggressors and predators. It doesn't make sense that the healing is received when the necro gets hit.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> lets think about the logic of this skill:

>

> "I lose if I get hit and die, but I have healing skill in case I get hit, to help me,"

> "The healing skill works only when I get hit, which I should be avoiding in the first place."

>

> Also thematically, vampires are aggressors and predators. It doesn't make sense that the healing is received when the necro gets hit.

 

I think that's not the correct way to really think about it because you ARE going to take hits. It's very similar to protection. Protection only works if you get hit. Of course, there are big differences in how protection is implemented vs. SoV, but the effect is similar; a smaller amount of damage taken if you didn't have it. Passive is just a different form of damage reduction. Really, that's how people should be thinking about the passive version.

 

Besides, the active version of SoV works just like you describe ... you suck life from the opponent. It wouldn't make sense for the passive to work just like the active version. Frankly, the ability to choose is very useful, especially if you are on a melee weapon.

[ShadowKain.9410]

> @"Kiroshima.8497" said:

> It'd be better if SoV spent Lifeforce to heal you once per second, and when you activated it, striking the target granted you life force and a siphon.

>

> That way your regen is always on (like a warrior) unless you activate it for burst life force, and it pairs well with spectrals (and signet of undeath). It would be most powerful on Core Necro, who doesn't use as much life force compared to the other 2 specs.

 

It's a less useful version of Warrior's useless heal signet, which is not only less useful but also requires you to be getting hit every second, and your solution is to make it cost lifeforce as well?

 

Brilliant.

[ShadowKain.9410]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> lets think about the logic of this skill:

>

> "I lose if I get hit and die, but I have healing skill in case I get hit, to help me,"

> "The healing skill works only when I get hit, which I should be avoiding in the first place."

>

> Also thematically, vampires are aggressors and predators. It doesn't make sense that the healing is received when the necro gets hit.

 

This is why I feel like Thief's Malice signet and Necro's Vampirism signet should have been swapped from the start.

 

Signet of Malice working like the Vampirism signet makes logical sense (although if the ICD is left in, I feel the base healing still needs to go up) where the Thief would then have a little bit of heal-based "damage reduction" to mitigate some of that "Oops, I forgot to dodge that one" damage, with the Active version of the signet granting the effect that Signet of Malice currently has, some pretty potent heal-on-hit healing.

 

Then, make Signet of Vampirism's passive work like Signet of Malice's passive, with its Active being more powerful, and actively stealing life.

 

As of right now, Signet of Vampirism is useless.

[Kiroshima.8497]

> @"ShadowKain.9410" said:

> > @"Kiroshima.8497" said:

> > It'd be better if SoV spent Lifeforce to heal you once per second, and when you activated it, striking the target granted you life force and a siphon.

> >

> > That way your regen is always on (like a warrior) unless you activate it for burst life force, and it pairs well with spectrals (and signet of undeath). It would be most powerful on Core Necro, who doesn't use as much life force compared to the other 2 specs.

>

> It's a less useful version of Warrior's useless heal signet, which is not only less useful but also requires you to be getting hit every second, and your solution is to make it cost lifeforce as well?

>

> Brilliant.

 

I mean if you consider 300-400 health per second regen without getting hit (my proposed change makes it regen every second at the cost of life force), sure, and a 1-2% life force per regen tick isn't even that bad for that kind of sustain (use with dagger obviously), especially since you could activate the signet for bonus siphons and life force, like 1% per strike (use right before entering shroud, traited signet turns the passive back on allowing you to regen while your offensive shroud skills feed life force back to you), and it would naturally combo with any of the spectrals which feed more life force when you are struck (similar to current vamp signet).

 

Adding a requirement/cost balances out the increase in potency.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"ShadowKain.9410" said:

> This is why I feel like Thief's Malice signet and Necro's Vampirism signet should have been swapped from the start.

>

> Signet of Malice working like the Vampirism signet makes logical sense (although if the ICD is left in, I feel the base healing still needs to go up) where the Thief would then have a little bit of heal-based "damage reduction" to mitigate some of that "Oops, I forgot to dodge that one" damage, with the Active version of the signet granting the effect that Signet of Malice currently has, some pretty potent heal-on-hit healing.

>

> Then, make Signet of Vampirism's passive work like Signet of Malice's passive, with its Active being more powerful, and actively stealing life.

>

> As of right now, Signet of Vampirism is useless.

idk imo both malice and vampirism should have the same functionality (heal when you hit something - so that both of them are useful and not 1 is useless)

 

[tontonUB.4687]

I feel like SoV should be extra fine with an ICD of 0,5 sec instead of 1 sec when traited.

I also still hope for a decent elite signet being added, at last. Signet Necro deserved it for a long time, now. TIme for anet to wake up and stop designing gimicky clown concept.

Signet of martyrdom :

- passive drain / damage in a 600 radius zone (life tap for team, damage affects up to 5 enemies / low dmg / low lifetap = it's a symbolic - theme effect, not intented to crush anything)

- On Activation = Aoe Lifetap moving with necro, short duration, high CD, clear condi on pulse , could reveal and debuff invisible perma clown in pvp / wvw

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > lets think about the logic of this skill:

> >

> > "I lose if I get hit and die, but I have healing skill in case I get hit, to help me,"

> > "The healing skill works only when I get hit, which I should be avoiding in the first place."

> >

> > Also thematically, vampires are aggressors and predators. It doesn't make sense that the healing is received when the necro gets hit.

>

> I think that's not the correct way to really think about it because you ARE going to take hits. It's very similar to protection. Protection only works if you get hit. Of course, there are big differences in how protection is implemented vs. SoV, but the effect is similar; a smaller amount of damage taken if you didn't have it. Passive is just a different form of damage reduction. Really, that's how people should be thinking about the passive version.

 

Honestly its no where near the same thing protection scales down damage by a percent no matter how much damage you take or how fast you take the damage.

SoV grants you a chip of hp back a at minimum of 1 second and does not scale with a percent of the incoming damage making its damage reduction considerably weaker and it does nothing for several hard hits in the span of 1 second which is very common these days.

 

> Besides, the active version of SoV works just like you describe ... you suck life from the opponent. It wouldn't make sense for the passive to work just like the active version. Frankly, the ability to choose is very useful, especially if you are on a melee weapon.

 

Its certainly a far cry from being a true standard non condi removal heal its low the only thing below it is actually the minion heal and even that will net you more hp back over time in pve than SoV would so maybe not.

Scourge makes it work because barrier lets them keep on the aggression and generally scourge almost never needs to worry about the hard hitting melee that comes up because its so easy to punish melee'ers with aoes and procs.

 

Ideally the active should become weaker and become the passive and it should gain a new active. There is no real reason to want to keep the support function of this signet because it restrains it too much. The active should be similar to the guardian meditation heal except on a single target.

 

Mark a target and leach hp from them based on the damage you deal with no icd on the healing

 

 

[Anchoku.8142]

SoV is still marginally useful for group support providing tiny heals and small damage but it is not very useful with the mastery in Spite competing with Close to Death and Signets of Suffering giving it such an ineffectual buff.

 

What kind of build encourages firing off Vampirism, Spite, Suffering, Locust or Undeath, then shrouding for 25 seconds to recharge the Signets? It sounds so strange that I admit to not developing a build around that style of gameplay.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > lets think about the logic of this skill:

> > >

> > > "I lose if I get hit and die, but I have healing skill in case I get hit, to help me,"

> > > "The healing skill works only when I get hit, which I should be avoiding in the first place."

> > >

> > > Also thematically, vampires are aggressors and predators. It doesn't make sense that the healing is received when the necro gets hit.

> >

> > I think that's not the correct way to really think about it because you ARE going to take hits. It's very similar to protection. Protection only works if you get hit. Of course, there are big differences in how protection is implemented vs. SoV, but the effect is similar; a smaller amount of damage taken if you didn't have it. Passive is just a different form of damage reduction. Really, that's how people should be thinking about the passive version.

>

> Honestly its no where near the same thing protection scales down damage by a percent no matter how much damage you take or how fast you take the damage.

 

 

I said it was the same in how it works conceptually, that's all. It reduces damage, like protection. I'm not comparing numbers here.

 

> > Besides, the active version of SoV works just like you describe ... you suck life from the opponent. It wouldn't make sense for the passive to work just like the active version. Frankly, the ability to choose is very useful, especially if you are on a melee weapon.

>

> Its certainly a far cry from being a true standard non condi removal heal its low the only thing below it is actually the minion heal and even that will net you more hp back over time in pve than SoV would so maybe not.

> Scourge makes it work because barrier lets them keep on the aggression and generally scourge almost never needs to worry about the hard hitting melee that comes up because its so easy to punish melee'ers with aoes and procs.

>

> Ideally the active should become weaker and become the passive and it should gain a new active. There is no real reason to want to keep the support function of this signet because it restrains it too much. The active should be similar to the guardian meditation heal except on a single target.

>

> Mark a target and leach hp from them based on the damage you deal with no icd on the healing

>

>

If the baseline was improved, sure, but there ISN'T anything wrong with how the passive and actives works; sucking life when you GET hit, or GIVE hits is a very tactical and useful consideration that allows for smart play. If you haven't taken care to notice, Anet thinks skills that make you think are important too.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I still think the only thing really wrong with the skill is the ICD on the passive. Having it apply to every hit taken would make it actually good.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> I still think the only thing really wrong with the skill is the ICD on the passive. Having it apply to every hit taken would make it actually good.

 

i don't think so, unless everything hits you for less than 1000 damage.

in reality you get hit for 5-15k each time. the skill would be a niche for orrian turrets, pocket raptors etc.

 

just make it heal on-hit without ICD and let the active debuff change functionality to 10% more damage from all sources. (and 10% of dmg dealt as heal)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > I still think the only thing really wrong with the skill is the ICD on the passive. Having it apply to every hit taken would make it actually good.

>

> i don't think so, unless everything hits you for less than 1000 damage.

> in reality you get hit for 5-15k each time. the skill would be a niche for orrian turrets, pocket raptors etc.

>

> just make it heal on-hit without ICD and let the active debuff change functionality to 10% more damage from all sources. (and 10% of dmg dealt as heal)

 

To not think so is unreasonable ... it's a passive skill, it's not going to mitigate much damage in that mode, so removal of an ICD is about as good a buff as I think I can get. The active is in the theme, so I don't see a reason to make it a flat 10% damage reduction. It siphons health for you and others ... it should still do so. The flavour is correct.

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > I still think the only thing really wrong with the skill is the ICD on the passive. Having it apply to every hit taken would make it actually good.

>

> i don't think so, unless everything hits you for less than 1000 damage.

> in reality you get hit for 5-15k each time. the skill would be a niche for orrian turrets, pocket raptors etc.

>

> just make it heal on-hit without ICD and let the active debuff change functionality to 10% more damage from all sources. (and 10% of dmg dealt as heal)

 

I think this is just not a good skill to balance. If you play this in a zerg. And you get those small hits of full trailblaizer scourges or guards or whatsoever, would make the necromancer immortal

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > I still think the only thing really wrong with the skill is the ICD on the passive. Having it apply to every hit taken would make it actually good.

> >

> > i don't think so, unless everything hits you for less than 1000 damage.

> > in reality you get hit for 5-15k each time. the skill would be a niche for orrian turrets, pocket raptors etc.

> >

> > just make it heal on-hit without ICD and let the active debuff change functionality to 10% more damage from all sources. (and 10% of dmg dealt as heal)

>

> To not think so is unreasonable ... it's a passive skill, it's not going to mitigate much damage in that mode, so removal of an ICD is about as good a buff as I think I can get. The active is in the theme, so I don't see a reason to make it a flat 10% damage reduction. It siphons health for you and others ... it should still do so. The flavour is correct.

>

>

 

If they removed the icd from its passive i would be much more accepting of it to be honest. That would allow its potental to scale up from rapid hitting attacks. Then with half of the current signet trait it could be considered moderate sustain in core shroud.

[Conncept.7638]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> Because only warriors are allowed a good all round passive heal.

 

I wish this were just a bad joke, but in all honesty, every ill-concieved excuse the devs made on the old forums during the hambow debacle confirmed that really is just how it is. The devs know and admit heavy passive healing without investement is poor design that shouldn't be in the game, but they make an exception for the warrrior because they flagrantly play favorites.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > Because only warriors are allowed a good all round passive heal.

>

> I wish this were just a bad joke, but in all honesty, every ill-concieved excuse the devs made on the old forums during the hambow debacle confirmed that really is just how it is. The devs know and admit heavy passive healing without investement is poor design that shouldn't be in the game, but they make an exception for the warrrior because they flagrantly play favorites.

 

Let's be careful ... it's not a flagrant play of favourites here. It's a strategic decision to have a range of classes and skills available to serve a large range of player skills and desires for different levels of play. Why do you think this game appeals to so many players? Certainly not because every class performs at the same level with the same level of difficulty to play. I truly believe these differences are intended and planned.

 

Let's stop pretending that EVERY difference in the game is there just to make players who are raid-performance deficient on their favourite classes angry. That's just salty and nonsense.