Warrior/Spellbreaker is just weak.

[Kuulpb.5412]

BY THE WAY - just to clarify to everyone - This is About PvE Specifically, pvp / Wvw I know is fine because PvP/WvW are vs players with a max of 30k hp ( give or take ), While bosses etc in pve can be in the millions, and having extremely low DPS and CC etc means It won't be "wanted" by people in raids etc. for general PvE there are a few issues that I can't name off the top of my head as I "Think" I've sort of adapted to them... but One issue regarding spellbreaker I know if, Is the Elite's Animation FAR outlasts the duration of the effect, by a good 4-5 seconds. So not to sound rude to Anet but it makes me feel like they had a theme all set, then just sort of lumped things oh, Like the only boonstrips we get are dagger F1 (requires Adrnelaine) and the break enchantments utility (15s cd), Elite ( Area for duration). While other professions (base) get spammable boonrip/convert - Mesmer sword 1 chain, Thief sword/dagger 3 and Necro scepter 1 all remove boons. SO the fact that the damage of daggers isn't as good at Thief Daggers ( I have calculations) and that they can't strip boons as easily unless the build for only ccs is rather... disappointing. ( I still love spellbreaker though, I have been saying since it was revealed that spellbreaker would be my favourite and it is, despite the low damage, Unless you use axe/dagger which means you give up boonrip)

[SWI.4127]

> @Junkpile.7439 said:

> > @Oglaf.1074 said:

> > > @Junkpile.7439 said:

> > > I don't see why tank should have high dps.

> >

> > I don't see why on earth you believe Spellbreaker is in any way a tank.

> >

> > It is a squishy debuff/damage spec with a counter/block mechanic.

>

> Use toughness, vitality, healing power gear and mace shield or something.

 

How on earth would that output a lot of DPS? Also last I checked, healing power scales terribly with most warrior skills.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > Speaking purely from PvE, damage is lacking. It needs some major buff. D/D was also lacking in aoe.

> >

> > Assuming that it's even supposed to be a high damage DPS spec to begin with.

> >

> > I don't think anyone really thinks these things through ... subsequent elite specs are not simply a forever rising threshold of DPS scores for the classes. The idea that daggers lacking DPS is a reason to buff dagger DPS doesn't make sense.

> >

> > We are getting to the point were if there is at least one reasonable DPS spec, that's well enough. It won't be a given that the most recent espec should be THAT reasonable DPS spec either.

>

> I thought this through plenty, they changed Berserker into a Condition spec (By buffing sword and lowering the bursts to T1), thus Spellbreaker would be a Critical/Power spec with cc/boonstrip.

 

I see no way how you came to that conclusion other than you want Spellbreaker to be a Crit/power spec with CC/boonstrip. I don't see Spellbreaker being a Power spec at all ... nothing about it says that to me. I can see taking advantage of high rate of hits and procing effects from criting ... that doesn't necessarily speak to me as being a high DPS spec though.

 

[Darkhydrox.8560]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > > Speaking purely from PvE, damage is lacking. It needs some major buff. D/D was also lacking in aoe.

> > >

> > > Assuming that it's even supposed to be a high damage DPS spec to begin with.

> > >

> > > I don't think anyone really thinks these things through ... subsequent elite specs are not simply a forever rising threshold of DPS scores for the classes. The idea that daggers lacking DPS is a reason to buff dagger DPS doesn't make sense.

> > >

> > > We are getting to the point were if there is at least one reasonable DPS spec, that's well enough. It won't be a given that the most recent espec should be THAT reasonable DPS spec either.

> >

> > I thought this through plenty, they changed Berserker into a Condition spec (By buffing sword and lowering the bursts to T1), thus Spellbreaker would be a Critical/Power spec with cc/boonstrip.

>

> I see no way how you came to that conclusion other than you want Spellbreaker to be a Crit/power spec with CC/boonstrip. I don't see Spellbreaker being a Power spec at all ... nothing about it says that to me. I can see taking advantage of high rate of hits and procing effects from criting ... that doesn't necessarily speak to me as being a high DPS spec though.

>

 

Probably the fact that 3/4 of the damage boosting traits in the SB line only boost power damage has something to do with people thinking it's meant to be a power spec.

 

EDIT: And the new weapons for the spec having crit damage modifiers and applying no damaging condis.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > > Speaking purely from PvE, damage is lacking. It needs some major buff. D/D was also lacking in aoe.

> > >

> > > Assuming that it's even supposed to be a high damage DPS spec to begin with.

> > >

> > > I don't think anyone really thinks these things through ... subsequent elite specs are not simply a forever rising threshold of DPS scores for the classes. The idea that daggers lacking DPS is a reason to buff dagger DPS doesn't make sense.

> > >

> > > We are getting to the point were if there is at least one reasonable DPS spec, that's well enough. It won't be a given that the most recent espec should be THAT reasonable DPS spec either.

> >

> > I thought this through plenty, they changed Berserker into a Condition spec (By buffing sword and lowering the bursts to T1), thus Spellbreaker would be a Critical/Power spec with cc/boonstrip.

>

> I see no way how you came to that conclusion other than you want Spellbreaker to be a Crit/power spec with CC/boonstrip. I don't see Spellbreaker being a Power spec at all ... nothing about it says that to me. I can see taking advantage of high rate of hits and procing effects from criting ... that doesn't necessarily speak to me as being a high DPS spec though.

But spell breaker's default equips and skill set is based around power.

-Rune of the spell breaker increases power and precision.

-Dagger adds crit damage

-Pure strike adds crit damage

-Megabane stacks might like crazy

-Spellbreaker equips have +power +crit +Ferocity

 

seems like Anet wants them to be Power/Crit

[Obtena.7952]

That's not saying much ... there are only two ways to apply damage in this game, power or condi. Being a power/crit build does not imply good DPS by default. When someone tells me it's power/crit spec who is complaining that SBreaker doesn't do enough damage, I think it's clear they mean that because it's a Power/crit spec, it should do lots of damage.

 

The fact is that Sbreaker doesn't appear to be intended to give you high damage, on purpose. It's probably in that same family of especs that Scrapper is in ... doesn't do a whole lot of damage but does a whole lot a other really good stuff for other things.

[Kuulpb.5412]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > > Speaking purely from PvE, damage is lacking. It needs some major buff. D/D was also lacking in aoe.

> > >

> > > Assuming that it's even supposed to be a high damage DPS spec to begin with.

> > >

> > > I don't think anyone really thinks these things through ... subsequent elite specs are not simply a forever rising threshold of DPS scores for the classes. The idea that daggers lacking DPS is a reason to buff dagger DPS doesn't make sense.

> > >

> > > We are getting to the point were if there is at least one reasonable DPS spec, that's well enough. It won't be a given that the most recent espec should be THAT reasonable DPS spec either.

> >

> > I thought this through plenty, they changed Berserker into a Condition spec (By buffing sword and lowering the bursts to T1), thus Spellbreaker would be a Critical/Power spec with cc/boonstrip.

>

> I see no way how you came to that conclusion other than you want Spellbreaker to be a Crit/power spec with CC/boonstrip. I don't see Spellbreaker being a Power spec at all ... nothing about it says that to me. I can see taking advantage of high rate of hits and procing effects from criting ... that doesn't necessarily speak to me as being a high DPS spec though.

>

 

Dagger auto scales form crit dmg, traits - you do more damage with crits v boonless foes, heal on crit.... pretty sure it's a crit damage spec....

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > > > Speaking purely from PvE, damage is lacking. It needs some major buff. D/D was also lacking in aoe.

> > > >

> > > > Assuming that it's even supposed to be a high damage DPS spec to begin with.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think anyone really thinks these things through ... subsequent elite specs are not simply a forever rising threshold of DPS scores for the classes. The idea that daggers lacking DPS is a reason to buff dagger DPS doesn't make sense.

> > > >

> > > > We are getting to the point were if there is at least one reasonable DPS spec, that's well enough. It won't be a given that the most recent espec should be THAT reasonable DPS spec either.

> > >

> > > I thought this through plenty, they changed Berserker into a Condition spec (By buffing sword and lowering the bursts to T1), thus Spellbreaker would be a Critical/Power spec with cc/boonstrip.

> >

> > I see no way how you came to that conclusion other than you want Spellbreaker to be a Crit/power spec with CC/boonstrip. I don't see Spellbreaker being a Power spec at all ... nothing about it says that to me. I can see taking advantage of high rate of hits and procing effects from criting ... that doesn't necessarily speak to me as being a high DPS spec though.

> >

>

> Dagger auto scales form crit dmg, traits - you do more damage with crits v boonless foes, heal on crit.... pretty sure it's a crit damage spec....

 

And even with CC and boonstrip, you still have to do the damage needed to kill the target to capitalize on the CC.

[Obtena.7952]

No, it's a crit spec ... if it was a **damage** crit spec, you wouldn't be complaining about it's low damage. I know this likely hasn't crossed your mind but you CAN have a spec that crits lots without good damage ... and there would be a reason to do that as well, though perhaps not so much in PVE.

 

Again, don't assume what this spec should do based on making unconfirmed correlations.

 

> @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> And even with CC and boonstrip, you still have to do the damage needed to kill the target to capitalize on the CC.

 

So what are you saying? You don't do any damage? I mean, how does a Scrapper kill things? They don't do too much damage. Let's not pretend that all the non_DPS effects that are good in PVP/WvW are not part of this spec and don't contribute to the things that make it a useful spec. Not every spec is going to be good DPS for PVE. That should be obvious at this point yes?

[Jinks.2057]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

> > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > The LAST thing SB needs is more damage. I don't care about PvE in any way shape or form, but if you bump the damage on SB it'll break it for PvP & WvW.

> >

> > SB has once again put warrior into the "no skill needed" category. The spec is super easy to use & you can 1v2 right out of the box.

>

> snip

 

Says the person who's done nothing but complain about how weak SB is for PvE and the injustice of it all.

 

Let's please stick with refuting facts instead of degrading this thread into personal insults and emotional arguments.

[Gele.2048]

i agree the dmg on war in that elite specs is very week compare to other clases

[Omcrazy.4756]

Don't know how it compares in PvE which seems to be this thread's focus. But Spellbreaker seemed designed for PvP or WvW from the second it was announced. And it is absolutely decimating the opposition in PvP. 1-2 Sbs per team every match and the only thing that keeps them in line is Scourge making melee obsolete.

[otto.5684]

Again, from PvE I do not see why SB D/D should not be able to pull similar damage to power Rev. Power Rev is not spectacular in PvE by any means.

 

Also, dagger skills 3-4 suffer significantly in PvE, cuz if you fight anything with a break bar (like any champion) you lose damage.. Easy small bandied is to make these skills do equal damage to all targets in PvE without the need to interrupt or CC. No where close to enough, but a start.

[Kuulpb.5412]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> No, it's a crit spec ... if it was a **damage** crit spec, you wouldn't be complaining about it's low damage. I know this likely hasn't crossed your mind but you CAN have a spec that crits lots without good damage ... and there would be a reason to do that as well, though perhaps not so much in PVE.

>

> Again, don't assume what this spec should do based on making unconfirmed correlations.

>

> > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > And even with CC and boonstrip, you still have to do the damage needed to kill the target to capitalize on the CC.

>

> So what are you saying? You don't do any damage? I mean, how does a Scrapper kill things? They don't do too much damage. Let's not pretend that all the non_DPS effects that are good in PVP/WvW are not part of this spec and don't contribute to the things that make it a useful spec. Not every spec is going to be good DPS for PVE. That should be obvious at this point yes?

 

Just saying, I have stated previously, I am talking about PvE, is there a point in having crits only in PvE? with all the enemies weak to conditions and all the pbjects that cannot be crit but can be statused. If they want us to crit, we need to be able to do damage with dagger.

 

[Kuulpb.5412]

> @otto.5684 said:

> Again, from PvE I do not see why SB D/D should not be able to pull similar damage to power Rev. Power Rev is not spectacular in PvE by any means.

>

> Also, dagger skills 3-4 suffer significantly in PvE, cuz if you fight anything with a break bar (like any champion) you lose damage.. Easy small bandied is to make these skills do equal damage to all targets in PvE without the need to interrupt or CC. No where close to enough, but a start.

 

You at least have some sense, unlike those who are just ranting at me stating my opinion based on some facts e.g. power/crit because crit trats and the rune make syou do more dmg (flat). etc.

[otto.5684]

> @Omcrazy.4756 said:

> Don't know how it compares in PvE which seems to be this thread's focus. But Spellbreaker seemed designed for PvP or WvW from the second it was announced. And it is absolutely decimating the opposition in PvP. 1-2 Sbs per team every match and the only thing that keeps them in line is Scourge making melee obsolete.

 

Why do people keep throwing around "designed for PvP or WvW." It never is or was. All elites are designed to be playable in all game modes** ESPECIALLY **in PvE. If something does not work in PvE it needs immediate fixing.

[Omcrazy.4756]

> @otto.5684 said:

> > @Omcrazy.4756 said:

> > Don't know how it compares in PvE which seems to be this thread's focus. But Spellbreaker seemed designed for PvP or WvW from the second it was announced. And it is absolutely decimating the opposition in PvP. 1-2 Sbs per team every match and the only thing that keeps them in line is Scourge making melee obsolete.

>

> Why do people keep throwing around "designed for PvP or WvW." It never is or was. All elites are designed to be playable in all game modes** ESPECIALLY **in PvE. If something does not work in PvE it needs immediate fixing.

 

Why? Why are all elites designed to be playable in all game modes? This is only our second elite spec, did a dev specifically state somewhere that they planned on all elite specs to be equally viable in all game modes?

 

And why especially PvE? Because its the game mode you most enjoy? GW2 more than most other MMOs I would say should have a focus on pvp and/or wvw. So, if nothing else, all three game modes should be considered equal.

 

Seems pretty obvious that different specs are built with different designs in mind. Only natural that different designs would result in some specs being more viable than others in different game modes.

 

Plus, most of this thread is talking about just daggers specifically. Is SB not viable at all even with other power weapons like GS?

 

Not saying it couldn't use tuning. Something to make it more competitive with Berserker in pve but less dominant in pvp. Meanwhile berserker isn't all that effective in pvp except for 1v1s. Maybe find a way to make SB more of a support build in pve while Berserker stays at the prime dps. Other classes are set up like that.

 

Its just funny to me that nobody is ever happy unless they are dominating in all game modes. Have a class/spec that is great in pve but isn't effective in pvp? Rage. Have a dominating pvp spec that is literally making players rage quit but isn't as meta as the previous spec? More rage. Probably with announcements of their imminent departure from the game.

 

[otto.5684]

> @Omcrazy.4756 said:

> > @otto.5684 said:

> > > @Omcrazy.4756 said:

> > > Don't know how it compares in PvE which seems to be this thread's focus. But Spellbreaker seemed designed for PvP or WvW from the second it was announced. And it is absolutely decimating the opposition in PvP. 1-2 Sbs per team every match and the only thing that keeps them in line is Scourge making melee obsolete.

> >

> > Why do people keep throwing around "designed for PvP or WvW." It never is or was. All elites are designed to be playable in all game modes** ESPECIALLY **in PvE. If something does not work in PvE it needs immediate fixing.

>

> Why? Why are all elites designed to be playable in all game modes? This is only our second elite spec, did a dev specifically state somewhere that they planned on all elite specs to be equally viable in all game modes?

>

> And why especially PvE? Because its the game mode you most enjoy? GW2 more than most other MMOs I would say should have a focus on pvp and/or wvw. So, if nothing else, all three game modes should be considered equal.

>

> Seems pretty obvious that different specs are built with different designs in mind. Only natural that different designs would result in some specs being more viable than others in different game modes.

>

> Plus, most of this thread is talking about just daggers specifically. Is SB not viable at all even with other power weapons like GS?

>

> Not saying it couldn't use tuning. Something to make it more competitive with Berserker in pve but less dominant in pvp. Meanwhile berserker isn't all that effective in pvp except for 1v1s. Maybe find a way to make SB more of a support build in pve while Berserker stays at the prime dps. Other classes are set up like that.

>

> Its just funny to me that nobody is ever happy unless they are dominating in all game modes. Have a class/spec that is great in pve but isn't effective in pvp? Rage. Have a dominating pvp spec that is literally making players rage quit but isn't as meta as the previous spec? More rage. Probably with announcements of their imminent departure from the game.

>

 

If I have to explain to you elites are supposed to be viable in both PvP and PvE, that means you do not understand anything about the basic of design and class balance. Your contributions to this thread are null.

 

And yes, every single elite spec must have one optimal build in PvP and PvE. Key word here is optimal not viable.

[ugrakarma.9416]

The concept of a 'pvp only' elite spec is ridiculous:

 

imagine a game producer announcing: "The expansion will bring new specializations, and you warriors will be able to play only with the old warrior on pve."

[Malicious.3716]

> @ugrakarma.9416 said:

> The concept of a 'pvp only' elite spec is ridiculous:

>

> imagine a game producer announcing: "The expansion will bring new specializations, and you warriors will be able to play only with the old warrior on pve."

 

Or perhaps they are using warrior as a means to be able to have each elite and core be viable for a certain game mode.

[TwiceDead.1963]

I don't know... In PvP/WvW, the Spellbreaker is pretty damn solid.

 

PvE it's at a severe disadvantage though. It relies a lot on interrupts and boon-strips, neither which are plentiful in PvE. Daggers already come with the disadvantage of only being able to tag two targets at a time, unlike all the other weapons in the game which can target multiple, this really hampers Spellbreakers in a mob-zerg scenario. To off-set this disadvantage it makes sense for daggers to do more damage than say, a greatsword, at least against single targets, and if you can interrupt and stun your enemies, sure you've got a lot of burst going and can down trash in two seconds.

 

As soon as you hit a breakbar though, all your momentum is hampered and your tools pretty much neutered.

 

It's not terrible, though... Like everything in PvE, you can literally run anything and succeed, but you'll be fighting an uphill battle compared to the other elite specs, and the imposing feeling of hampering yourself just for running spellbreaker is rather disheartening.

 

Again, this is PvE.

WvW and PvP it's kinda great.

[Ashantara.8731]

It totally stinks in PvE, I am majorly disappointed in this elite spec. I went back to my old Condition Berserker build with Viper's gear after two days of testing Spellbreaker. Much more efficient.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > No, it's a crit spec ... if it was a **damage** crit spec, you wouldn't be complaining about it's low damage. I know this likely hasn't crossed your mind but you CAN have a spec that crits lots without good damage ... and there would be a reason to do that as well, though perhaps not so much in PVE.

> >

> > Again, don't assume what this spec should do based on making unconfirmed correlations.

> >

> > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > And even with CC and boonstrip, you still have to do the damage needed to kill the target to capitalize on the CC.

> >

> > So what are you saying? You don't do any damage? I mean, how does a Scrapper kill things? They don't do too much damage. Let's not pretend that all the non_DPS effects that are good in PVP/WvW are not part of this spec and don't contribute to the things that make it a useful spec. Not every spec is going to be good DPS for PVE. That should be obvious at this point yes?

>

> Just saying, I have stated previously, I am talking about PvE, is there a point in having crits only in PvE? with all the enemies weak to conditions and all the pbjects that cannot be crit but can be statused. If they want us to crit, we need to be able to do damage with dagger.

>

 

I think that's not even a relevant question. That direction assumes Anet always makes especs that 'have a point' for something specifically player chosen. They don't. This is an example. Is there a point in critting lots in PVE with not high damage? Maybe not, but there doesn't have to be for this spec to exist either. If Anet wants you to crit, they can do that without having high damage on dagger. There are no set rules for this stuff; don't try to invent them.

[Darkhydrox.8560]

> @Ashantara.8731 said:

> It totally stinks in PvE, I am majorly disappointed in this elite spec. I went back to my old Condition Berserker build with Viper's gear after two days of testing Spellbreaker. Much more efficient.

 

As much as I agree condi zerker is clearly better dps I don't think it's even fair to compare a power spec to a condi spec considering the huge disparity between condi and power on pretty much any profession right now.

[Kuulpb.5412]

I get the feeling this thread is turning into a "Spellbreaker is great vs spellbreaker sucks" thread... All i intended to do really was voice my opinion on PvE spellbreaker feeling nice and fast but the daggers don't do much damage, or bring > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > No, it's a crit spec ... if it was a **damage** crit spec, you wouldn't be complaining about it's low damage. I know this likely hasn't crossed your mind but you CAN have a spec that crits lots without good damage ... and there would be a reason to do that as well, though perhaps not so much in PVE.

> > >

> > > Again, don't assume what this spec should do based on making unconfirmed correlations.

> > >

> > > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > > And even with CC and boonstrip, you still have to do the damage needed to kill the target to capitalize on the CC.

> > >

> > > So what are you saying? You don't do any damage? I mean, how does a Scrapper kill things? They don't do too much damage. Let's not pretend that all the non_DPS effects that are good in PVP/WvW are not part of this spec and don't contribute to the things that make it a useful spec. Not every spec is going to be good DPS for PVE. That should be obvious at this point yes?

> >

> > Just saying, I have stated previously, I am talking about PvE, is there a point in having crits only in PvE? with all the enemies weak to conditions and all the pbjects that cannot be crit but can be statused. If they want us to crit, we need to be able to do damage with dagger.

> >

>

> I think that's not even a relevant question. That direction assumes Anet always makes especs that 'have a point' for something specifically player chosen. They don't. This is an example. Is there a point in critting lots in PVE with not high damage? Maybe not, but there doesn't have to be for this spec to exist either. If Anet wants you to crit, they can do that without having high damage on dagger. There are no set rules for this stuff; don't try to invent them.

 

The only way I can see critical hits matter without damage, would be if the game acted like Pokémon, where critical Hits ignore buffs - e.g. Protection, and stat lowers e.g. - weakness. since this isn't the case, we can assume that critical hits are tied to power as they directly buff power damage, not condition damage, and having an elite spec deal low damage with their weapon, but crit a lot, with sigils etc that have a 10s internal cooldown basically hinders the entire purpose of the crits.