Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[OriOri.8724]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> If you want to nerf Chrono bunker without hurting other builds much, just nerf the stability access to ground (aka change Bountiful Disillusionment).

>

> Without constant stability most builds will easily counter it regardless of phantasm spamming. Also revert Imagined Burden (or change it) not to give 2 berserkers.

>

> This is the easy way from the top of my head.

 

Nerfing imagined burden will do absolutely nothing, because it doesn't address CP, SotE, or the fact that a utility phantasm is dealing huge damage on top of us being able to spam them. Seriously, CP and SotE allow us to get out 6 defenders nearly back to back. But yes, its imagined burden that is the biggest issue on the class.....

[apharma.3741]

> @"CruleD.7380" said:

> Whenever I play (mesmer) I contemplate suicide, that's how enjoyable it is.

> Thanks to ANet for breaking Mesmer every patch since 2012.

 

Get help. Now.

[Hindenburg.3415]

This game is great. But honetsly spvp here just trash. No class balance watsoever. WvW is fine thought.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> The problem goes much deeper than most seem to realize.

>

> If Anet seriously wants this class to be balanced, they need to ask themselves what they want the classes weakness, strength, and role to be. Because right now Mesmer is an absolute mess of a design in that it has been given the ability to have all strengths, no weakness, and the simultaneous roles of thief+warrior+engineer at the same time. Mesmer is in a state that no class has been in for years: in that the reason it is broken is not due to one specific trait or specific ability. Rather it is broken because the class itself was power-gamed from the ground up.

>

>

 

Mesmer weakness was suppose to be being vulnerable when their clones were destroyed. However at this time, that is a useless task because they can summon them faster than you can kill them.

[Khenzy.9348]

The main problem to me is they are very narrowly focusing on Mesmer Design while forgetting about FUN. When design gets in the way of fun, you have a problem. It's NOT fun to fight a Mesmer, it will never be with its current design. Remove nameplates from clones or make them untargeteable, put a cap on them as well. Mesmer is NOT an illusionist in practice, it is and always will be your classic minion bomber. Their confusing (in a bad sense, no pun intended) and frustrating theme to dicieve and mess with your targeting and visuals, it's just that, not fun to fight against, and it's a mechanic that does more harm than good in a tab-targeting game. Hopefully, one day Anet will understand this.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Khenzy.9348" said:

> The main problem to me is they are very narrowly focusing on Mesmer Design while forgetting about FUN. When design gets in the way of fun, you have a problem. It's NOT fun to fight a Mesmer, it will never be with its current design. Remove nameplates from clones or make them untargeteable, put a cap on them as well. Mesmer is NOT an illusionist in practice, it is and always will be your classic minion bomber. Their confusing (in a bad sense, no pun intended) and frustrating theme to dicieve and mess with your targeting and visuals, it's just that, not fun to fight against, and it's a mechanic that does more harm than good in a tab-targeting game. Hopefully, one day Anet will understand this.

 

A fun idea I had a while back which was shot down considerably by other mesmers was what if the clones mimic your actions but have a 50% chance to do the opposite of your key input?

 

Now obviously some basic AI of taking the shortest path out of AoE and away from enemy players when in AoE would need to be applied but it would be a really interesting dynamic if you really could fool people with clones. Maybe shatters swap you with a numbered clone instead with a global cool down. Though I think everyone would absolutely hate mesmers in that iteration and the clones would probably need about the same health pool as the mesmer as you wouldn’t have shatters anymore so no reason to exist but to live and swap.

 

Fun idea though.

[michelada.2947]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > This is what you get for saying nerf this nerf that - once memser is nerfed there will be another similar post for another class. This is a never ending cycle. L2P

>

> I'm skipping whatever its going there and dont want to argue with ppl with little understanding , especially those who constnatly die to power GS that was in game for 5 years and people learned to dodge it when it was meta, now we have monkeys left that cant find dodge button. I'm shocked someone want to revert phantasm rework to keep CP xD

> But Mesmer truly need nerf , explained earlier. (But if tldr - CP,double phantasms, defender, disenchanter,shield phantasm)

 

What do you mean by learning to dodge? , they literally coming out of stealth and kill you in 1 sec with a daze on top of that so there is little to no chance to dodge that, yesterday a mesmer was hitting me 6k for every mind wrack clone proc, how is that balanced? and when you try to fight back you can't even touch them, a class that deals so much damage should not have the amount of defensive mechanics mesmer has.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > This is what you get for saying nerf this nerf that - once memser is nerfed there will be another similar post for another class. This is a never ending cycle. L2P

> >

> > I'm skipping whatever its going there and dont want to argue with ppl with little understanding , especially those who constnatly die to power GS that was in game for 5 years and people learned to dodge it when it was meta, now we have monkeys left that cant find dodge button. I'm shocked someone want to revert phantasm rework to keep CP xD

> > But Mesmer truly need nerf , explained earlier. (But if tldr - CP,double phantasms, defender, disenchanter,shield phantasm)

>

> What do you mean by learning to dodge? , they literally coming out of stealth and kill you in 1 sec with a daze on top of that so there is little to no chance to dodge that, yesterday a mesmer was hitting me 6k for every mind wrack clone proc, how is that balanced? and when you try to fight back you can't even touch them, a class that deals so much damage should not have the amount of defensive mechanics mesmer has.

 

Well open your eyes and Dodge it...

 

Everyone who says you cant dodge the mesmer stealth burts has a L2P issue.

Why ? I can dodge it 90% of all times, just like others.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > If you want to nerf Chrono bunker without hurting other builds much, just nerf the stability access to ground (aka change Bountiful Disillusionment).

> >

> > Without constant stability most builds will easily counter it regardless of phantasm spamming. Also revert Imagined Burden (or change it) not to give 2 berserkers.

> >

> > This is the easy way from the top of my head.

>

> Nerfing imagined burden will do absolutely nothing, because it doesn't address CP, SotE, or the fact that a utility phantasm is dealing huge damage on top of us being able to spam them. Seriously, CP and SotE allow us to get out 6 defenders nearly back to back. But yes, its imagined burden that is the biggest issue on the class.....

If you read the first part of my post, I've mentioned the biggest issue is stability access and after it's nerfed the build will be barely viable regardless of the phantasm spam. You can dish out as many defenders as you want, you will be dead in seconds without stability.

 

Imagined Burden and Phantasmal Warlock should be reverted only in order to reduce the QQ about visual clutter.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > This is what you get for saying nerf this nerf that - once memser is nerfed there will be another similar post for another class. This is a never ending cycle. L2P

> > >

> > > I'm skipping whatever its going there and dont want to argue with ppl with little understanding , especially those who constnatly die to power GS that was in game for 5 years and people learned to dodge it when it was meta, now we have monkeys left that cant find dodge button. I'm shocked someone want to revert phantasm rework to keep CP xD

> > > But Mesmer truly need nerf , explained earlier. (But if tldr - CP,double phantasms, defender, disenchanter,shield phantasm)

> >

> > What do you mean by learning to dodge? , they literally coming out of stealth and kill you in 1 sec with a daze on top of that so there is little to no chance to dodge that, yesterday a mesmer was hitting me 6k for every mind wrack clone proc, how is that balanced? and when you try to fight back you can't even touch them, a class that deals so much damage should not have the amount of defensive mechanics mesmer has.

>

> Well open your eyes and Dodge it...

>

> Everyone who says you cant dodge the mesmer stealth burts has a L2P issue.

> Why ? I can dodge it 90% of all times, just like others.

 

A lot of the complaints are the Insta stun, so they can't dodge given reaction time to stun break. Wasn't that nerfed changed anyway? Hardly see the stun mantra in wvw now.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > > This is what you get for saying nerf this nerf that - once memser is nerfed there will be another similar post for another class. This is a never ending cycle. L2P

> > > >

> > > > I'm skipping whatever its going there and dont want to argue with ppl with little understanding , especially those who constnatly die to power GS that was in game for 5 years and people learned to dodge it when it was meta, now we have monkeys left that cant find dodge button. I'm shocked someone want to revert phantasm rework to keep CP xD

> > > > But Mesmer truly need nerf , explained earlier. (But if tldr - CP,double phantasms, defender, disenchanter,shield phantasm)

> > >

> > > What do you mean by learning to dodge? , they literally coming out of stealth and kill you in 1 sec with a daze on top of that so there is little to no chance to dodge that, yesterday a mesmer was hitting me 6k for every mind wrack clone proc, how is that balanced? and when you try to fight back you can't even touch them, a class that deals so much damage should not have the amount of defensive mechanics mesmer has.

> >

> > Well open your eyes and Dodge it...

> >

> > Everyone who says you cant dodge the mesmer stealth burts has a L2P issue.

> > Why ? I can dodge it 90% of all times, just like others.

>

> A lot of the complaints are the Insta stun, so they can't dodge given reaction time to stun break. Wasn't that nerfed changed anyway? Hardly see the stun mantra in wvw now.

 

It was confounding suggestions that now has a 15s cool down on converting a daze to a 1s stun. Yeah I don’t see mantra of distraction much in WvW and most mesmers I see are either condi mirage or chaos/inspiration marauder phantasm spam. I do however run the mantra myself as I’m enjoying Jazzman’s build which is more about interrupts and it generally counters the current mesmer build pretty hard if you interrupt the phantasms and signet heal, firebrands are a pain though.

[FyzE.3472]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > This is what you get for saying nerf this nerf that - once memser is nerfed there will be another similar post for another class. This is a never ending cycle. L2P

> > >

> > > I'm skipping whatever its going there and dont want to argue with ppl with little understanding , especially those who constnatly die to power GS that was in game for 5 years and people learned to dodge it when it was meta, now we have monkeys left that cant find dodge button. I'm shocked someone want to revert phantasm rework to keep CP xD

> > > But Mesmer truly need nerf , explained earlier. (But if tldr - CP,double phantasms, defender, disenchanter,shield phantasm)

> >

> > What do you mean by learning to dodge? , they literally coming out of stealth and kill you in 1 sec with a daze on top of that so there is little to no chance to dodge that, yesterday a mesmer was hitting me 6k for every mind wrack clone proc, how is that balanced? and when you try to fight back you can't even touch them, a class that deals so much damage should not have the amount of defensive mechanics mesmer has.

>

> Well open your eyes and Dodge it...

>

> Everyone who says you cant dodge the mesmer stealth burts has a L2P issue.

> Why ? I can dodge it 90% of all times, just like others.

 

Not everyone can dodge while stunned

[Sorem.9157]

Is there a release date for the next balance patch/the patch this mesmer issue is going to be addressed? The silent and slow balance is really murdering any will i have of playing.

[zoopop.5630]

few months later, no respond from the Devs about how they plan on fixing the class. Just hoping they nerf the signet/cap clones/ give them a longer cool down on some spells.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > This is what you get for saying nerf this nerf that - once memser is nerfed there will be another similar post for another class. This is a never ending cycle. L2P

> > >

> > > I'm skipping whatever its going there and dont want to argue with ppl with little understanding , especially those who constnatly die to power GS that was in game for 5 years and people learned to dodge it when it was meta, now we have monkeys left that cant find dodge button. I'm shocked someone want to revert phantasm rework to keep CP xD

> > > But Mesmer truly need nerf , explained earlier. (But if tldr - CP,double phantasms, defender, disenchanter,shield phantasm)

> >

> > What do you mean by learning to dodge? , they literally coming out of stealth and kill you in 1 sec with a daze on top of that so there is little to no chance to dodge that, yesterday a mesmer was hitting me 6k for every mind wrack clone proc, how is that balanced? and when you try to fight back you can't even touch them, a class that deals so much damage should not have the amount of defensive mechanics mesmer has.

>

> Well open your eyes and Dodge it...

>

> Everyone who says you cant dodge the mesmer stealth burts has a L2P issue.

> Why ? I can dodge it 90% of all times, just like others.

 

Like...mesmers fall on their knees and die if they fail first burst...it's not like they can stealth again or chain distortion/dodges to buy time and then go stealth again...nvm

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > > @"michelada.2947" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > > > > This is what you get for saying nerf this nerf that - once memser is nerfed there will be another similar post for another class. This is a never ending cycle. L2P

> > > >

> > > > I'm skipping whatever its going there and dont want to argue with ppl with little understanding , especially those who constnatly die to power GS that was in game for 5 years and people learned to dodge it when it was meta, now we have monkeys left that cant find dodge button. I'm shocked someone want to revert phantasm rework to keep CP xD

> > > > But Mesmer truly need nerf , explained earlier. (But if tldr - CP,double phantasms, defender, disenchanter,shield phantasm)

> > >

> > > What do you mean by learning to dodge? , they literally coming out of stealth and kill you in 1 sec with a daze on top of that so there is little to no chance to dodge that, yesterday a mesmer was hitting me 6k for every mind wrack clone proc, how is that balanced? and when you try to fight back you can't even touch them, a class that deals so much damage should not have the amount of defensive mechanics mesmer has.

> >

> > Well open your eyes and Dodge it...

> >

> > Everyone who says you cant dodge the mesmer stealth burts has a L2P issue.

> > Why ? I can dodge it 90% of all times, just like others.

>

> Like...mesmers fall on their knees and die if they fail first burst...it's not like they can stealth again or chain distortion/dodges to buy time and then go stealth again...nvm

 

You can't dodge/invul for 30 consecutive seconds (minimum stealth cooldown). Nice try.

[Toron.4856]

still nothing from anets side?

 

dissapointing, very dissapointing BUT not unexpected, sadly.

[flog.3485]

Some suggestions to nerf mesmers.

 

First, I would like to see Chronophantasma turned into an ammo mechanic: 2 charges, 25 second cooldown after the 2 charges have been used for WvW/SPvP and a 10 second cooldown for PvE.

Second, I would like its activation to be more mindful and less automatic: trait is triggered only if you are facing the target (no skill split).

 

As for SotE, the heal skill, I have no idea. I am not even sure it needs to be nerfed if Chronophantasma is nerfed in the first place, because no matter how powerful it might be you are still giving up your heal.

 

Now regarding mirage.

 

Dodging while stunned should be the grandmaster trait. It would be obviously be bad to chain the effect twice in a row and therefore I suggest to give this new trait a 10 second cooldown.

[Felipe.1807]

hahaha more than 1K replies, for sure Anet team will read all of this and come up with a good solution for our Mesmer problem....

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Felipe.1807" said:

> hahaha more than 1K replies, for sure Anet team will read all of this and come up with a good solution for our Mesmer problem....

 

I really don't think Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether are going to survive. If there's one thing Arenanet has never liked, it's Zoo metas and Bunker Chrono is currently an entire zoo meta's worth of screen clutter all on it's own.

[bLind.6278]

Whatever Anet does wont be enough, and it will be another 6 months before they even consider further changes.

 

Stop giving them suggestions. They don't care.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > hahaha more than 1K replies, for sure Anet team will read all of this and come up with a good solution for our Mesmer problem....

>

> I really don't think Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether are going to survive. If there's one thing Arenanet has never liked, it's Zoo metas and Bunker Chrono is currently an entire zoo meta's worth of screen clutter all on it's own.

 

And they shouldn't survive in their current state. In the phantasm redesign, phantasms were rebalanced around the idea that you would get 1 phantasm attack per skill use (with the exception of staff, whose phantasm is kinda weak anyway). Both CP and SotE nullify that assumption. At least IB has its own handicap built in to keep it in check, and it only affects a single phantasm skill too.

[Astery.7914]

I don't understand this Signet of the Ether nerf for WvW, really. Like, hello? In spvp we have broken Disenchanter damage (12k-15k from single utility skill IS NOT NORMAL), we need rework on Chronophantasma spam and changes on Defender.

All good, let's nerf SotE, which is lesser problem of chrono spam and might be can be usefull in other builds after cd reduce buff. Why?

 

In realies of wvw (sorry, spvp guys, but we don't have separated topic for WvW) phantasmal spam isn't a thing. We have 3 categories of wvw-mesmers - pure power shatter and trailblazer condi for roam, and minstrel support for zergs. First and second builds were nerfed, and FB still MUCH better than chrono support.

Problem is - you cannot use your phantasms on wvw effectively. In zerg battles they will die before do anything, for roam - your phantasms are too slow to do any good impact, "main weapon" of power shatter still is mind wrack combo, and for condi that is torch fire bomb.

If you splitted skills between spvp and wvw - please, **split your next balance too**. After FB meta came and confusion nerfs happened mesmers almost lost all of their niches on wvw. No one needs you in zerg (EBG screaming - bring FB, scourges and warriors) and trailblazer condi strong only in 1vs1, due to low condi pressure (thanks to scourges, now everyone running maximum of their condi cleanse). Most of condi cleanse skills can be shared, so when in small scale fights (3-4 ppl) condi mesmer is just totally useless. You cannot do ANY decent pressure to groups with FB.

So, why you touched WvW-version of SoTE when this skill already not popular and people using it only in specifical builds? Mesmer balance problem is like druid problem - they are strong in spvp, but on wvw your only remaining role is roaming, where s/d acro thief, core warr, SB warr with Rampage and hordes of 2scourges+FB groups are already much stronger and valuable than mesmers.

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Astery.7914" said:

> I don't understand this Signet of the Ether nerf for WvW, really. Like, hello? In spvp we have broken Disenchanter damage (12k-15k from single utility skill IS NOT NORMAL), we need rework on Chronophantasma spam and changes on Defender.

> All good, let's nerf SotE, which is lesser problem of chrono spam and might be can be usefull in other builds after cd reduce buff. Why?

>

> In realies of wvw (sorry, spvp guys, but we don't have separated topic for WvW) phantasmal spam isn't a thing. We have 3 categories of wvw-mesmers - pure power shatter and trailblazer condi for roam, and minstrel support for zergs. First and second builds were nerfed, and FB still MUCH better than chrono support.

> Problem is - you cannot use your phantasms on wvw effectively. In zerg battles they will die before do anything, for roam - your phantasms are too slow to do any good impact, "main weapon" of power shatter still is mind wrack combo, and for condi that is torch fire bomb.

> If you splitted skills between spvp and wvw - please, **split your next balance too**. After FB meta came and confusion nerfs happened mesmers almost lost all of their niches on wvw. No one needs you in zerg (EBG screaming - bring FB, scourges and warriors) and trailblazer condi strong only in 1vs1, due to low condi pressure (thanks to scourges, now everyone running maximum of their condi cleanse). Most of condi cleanse skills can be shared, so when in small scale fights (3-4 ppl) condi mesmer is just totally useless. You cannot do ANY decent pressure to groups with FB.

> So, why you touched WvW-version of SoTE when this skill already not popular and people using it only in specifical builds? Mesmer balance problem is like druid problem - they are strong in spvp, but on wvw your only remaining role is roaming, where s/d acro thief, core warr, SB warr with Rampage and hordes of 2scourges+FB groups are already much stronger and valuable than mesmers.

 

you do understand the signet was 1 of the main issues toward the spamming correct ? You do know it allows them to reuse defender/Disenchanter from a 40 second cooldown to 0? the nerf was a solid direction to what needed tweaking.

 

I agree theirs more work that needs to be done but overall this is LESS spam within seconds of usage from their abilities on weapons and utilizes.

[Astery.7914]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

 

> you do understand the signet was 1 of the main issues toward the spamming correct ? You do know it allows them to reuse defender/Disenchanter from a 40 second cooldown to 0? the nerf was a solid direction to what needed tweaking.

>

> I agree theirs more work that needs to be done but overall this is LESS spam within seconds of usage from their abilities on weapons and utilizes.

 

So do this change for spvp version? That's what I said.

We have big spvp/wvw split patch, so why now spvp comes again to wvw, where balance is completely different?