Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Kasdwer.3721" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > Just wanted to point out that many "casual" pvp'ers come to the forums to talk about balance. Your concept is elitist to say the least. Thats all :)

> i think we have a different definition of "casual", cuz i dont mean people who play only 2-3hours a week, but i mean people who dont take it serious enough to improve themself and just wanna do the daily completion and dont care about winning or losing

>

> because this kind of people wouldnt care much about some 5% buffs or nerfs, because lets be serious here, they wont make mirage complete bad after the patch ( i mean look at spellbreaker, it got nerfed but its still good and viable)

>

>

 

As someone who does dailies and sticks around for a couple matches (as long as the matches are flowing fine) I understand what you mean. I personally more WvW to help improve myself, however opposite to you, I dont care if I win or lose. That being said, I do play to win regardless, however you cant get butthurt over losing. Thats how toxicity is created and we all know how much of that plagues PvP.

[SoV.5139]

Huge mistake in the past giving the same class that gets the best stealth, also the best mobility. It can reset fights it loses until it finally wins. When tons of people provided feedback that this was a huge mistake, they turn around and give the only other class with comparable stealth, comparable mobility - a complete 180 on what anyone objective in the customer base wanted. There should be consequences to taking a fight and making a mistake, but nope, not with these two classes. You can lose 9-10 fights, but thats no prob, just reset 9 times until you win the 10th.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them.

> > > > >

> > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class

> > > > >

> > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there

> > > >

> > > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential.

> > >

> > > Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize.

> >

> > I'm referring to teamfights.

> >

> > The problem, as far as I can tell, that most people have with holo is its burst potential on groups. I can come in like a wrecking ball if I show up at the right moment unimpeded. In other words -- people are complaining about holo's overall damage potential (throwing out numbers like 800k). That's what happens in teamfights when the enemies get clustered. Holo DPS goes through the roof in those situations. However, if one person is focusing on the holo actively, much of that damage can be reduced.

> >

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"shagwell.1349" said:

> > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs.

> > > >

> > > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was.

> > >

> > > Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class.

> > >

> > > To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.**

> >

> > No, I just want them to not be invulnerable/invisible/evading for more than 1/4 of the fight while they lay 20+ stacks of condi on thick. :smile:

>

> I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately.

>

> I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief."

 

I think if you actually 1v1'd a top Mirage you'd be at a loss for words as to how almost none of your abilities actually hit anything while you had a permanent 12 stacks of confusion and torment with 5 other cover conditions reapplied no matter how many time you cleansed.

 

Just because you can't pull it off doesn't mean others can't. Mirage is overpowered in all tiers of play due to the amount of survivability and damage they have access to instantly/constantly.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> Huge mistake in the past giving the same class that gets the best stealth, also the best mobility. It can reset fights it loses until it finally wins. When tons of people provided feedback that this was a huge mistake, they turn around and give the only other class with comparable stealth, comparable mobility - a complete 180 on what anyone objective in the customer base wanted. There should be consequences to taking a fight and making a mistake, but nope, not with these two classes. You can lose 9-10 fights, but thats no prob, just reset 9 times until you win the 10th.

 

This.

 

Both mesmers and thieves are impossible to punish, and it makes fighting either of those classes rage inducing.

[Kasdwer.3721]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> Huge mistake in the past giving the same class that gets the best stealth, also the best mobility. It can reset fights it loses until it finally wins. When tons of people provided feedback that this was a huge mistake, they turn around and give the only other class with comparable stealth, comparable mobility - a complete 180 on what anyone objective in the customer base wanted. There should be consequences to taking a fight and making a mistake, but nope, not with these two classes. You can lose 9-10 fights, but thats no prob, just reset 9 times until you win the 10th.

 

i dont see the issue here in spvp, a thief that just constantly resets fights is a useless thief, there are only 2 builds as thief that has lots of stealth, its dp (that its kinda weak in 1n1) and deadeye (a literal meme build)

both sdcore (the meta build) and condi (not rly meta atm) are stronger in 1n1 but have no real stealth access (either they steal another thief or uses dagger5, but its way to costly to be ever used)

[Yukio blaster.9082]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> [Quaggan feelings about tis thread.](https://media.giphy.com/media/xUOwGjAEHUqOrcoKK4/giphy.gif "Quaggan feelings about tis thread.")

 

I like killing quaggan's cos they are ugly, so i get your feeling. :D

[Ghos.1326]

 

> The counter play to a mesmer is a good player and mesmer is bad if you are not a very good player even misha was destroyed by zan and last day sindrener(best thief in gw2) was playing ranked and he was agains misha(best mesmer in gw2) he did beat him with a thief full health, and i don't need to bring back the zan(best engineer in gw2) killing misha in a 1v1 more than 6 or 7 times cos i all ready said it so who's that mesmer you talking about that have no counterplay !!!

> and the confusion is a burst condition more or less like power damage and confusion with 6 or less stacks is useless and the bursts aren't on low cooldowns and what you said about keeping +14 stack all the time is a lie unless you are a golem torment is useless need to be on high stacks to do significant damage the only good condi is burn but that's only available for the bust in high cd .

> and about power mirage one shooting it's actually a core mesmer mechanic and he was here before even HOT but my post was about the condi mirage or condi mesmer in general he was never a thing since lunch of gw2 and now when people started playing it everyone is hating him and crying for nerf so he disappear again.

 

By saying a player is bad because they can't counter a profession/elite spec you favor has no merit in any conversation. That already makes your entire response completely irrelevant. Also, trying to compare thief against mesmer is not anything special either. s/d thief is also very strong right now. Anyone will tell you that. Holosmiths can barely handle mesmers. Indeed Zan is good, but have you also accounted for how many fights Zan had to completely disengage from with a good mesmer such as Misha before winning these so called 6 or 7 fights in ranked matchups? Consider all of the parameters first.

 

[zoopop.5630]

before we adjust/fix these clones spams making it a cluster fuck battle when theirs more then 1 mesmer on a team.....

 

up coming "nerfs" aren't really going to solve the issues as to why this class is still pretty damn "op" in every possible aspect you can think off ....We fixed the Confusion issue but brought a whole new issue at line MAKING the matters even worse then what they were before lol.

 

I'll easy take back confusion meta spam over these clone spams.

 

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Please let me know if the devs plan on adjusting the clone issues at any point withing the next balance.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Super Powers:

* Highest burst damage

* Best self defense/disengage

* Wins rotations with self & group teleportations

* Can run any build/amulet and still be OP

* Immune to Arenanet nerfing

 


 

[ArthurDent.9538]

Mesmer is in a unique place where litterally all 7 of their traitlines are strong with multiple solid traits in most tiers. Nerfing the current most popular traits will result in them just swapping over to the next most broken setup with minimal loss in power. I would say changes should be mostly aimed at elements that are used in many different builds such as weapons, utilities, and shatters themselves.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> Mesmer is in a unique place where litterally all 7 of their traitlines are strong with multiple solid traits in most tiers. Nerfing the current most popular traits will result in them just swapping over to the next most broken setup with minimal loss in power. I would say changes should be mostly aimed at elements that are used in many different builds such as weapons, utilities, and shatters themselves.

 

Or buff the other classes to the same level. Or nerf all classes down to rev level. Either or really.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> Mesmer is in a unique place where litterally all 7 of their traitlines are strong with multiple solid traits in most tiers. Nerfing the current most popular traits will result in them just swapping over to the next most broken setup with minimal loss in power. I would say changes should be mostly aimed at elements that are used in many different builds such as weapons, utilities, and shatters themselves.

 

True. I actually find this situation good in a way, I think more, if not all, classes need to have real choices between their traitlines and within them.

However combined with many powerful mechanics that are hard to impossible to counterplay is what makes it bad design overall. Shatters need better tells imo, maybe make the clones glow in a certain color depends on shatter used as they run to you.

Obviously reduce the damage on F1, atleast by a bit, as one shots aren’t good to have. It should still give good semi spiky sustain damage when used with 3 clones.

Something that still bothers me about mirage is that they can evade while stunned even without elusive mind. Nerf normal dodge to not be usable under cc, thus giving elusive mind big value despite its nerf.

 

[zoopop.5630]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> Mesmer is in a unique place where litterally all 7 of their traitlines are strong with multiple solid traits in most tiers. Nerfing the current most popular traits will result in them just swapping over to the next most broken setup with minimal loss in power. I would say changes should be mostly aimed at elements that are used in many different builds such as weapons, utilities, and shatters themselves.

 

which is fine.... but again the clone spamming and re-popping up is the biggest issue at the moment overall with them , IM fine with the trait-lines ALL being good but when you have a bunker mesmer NEVER dying and spec to "tank" but yet deals solid damage it becomes cancer for a "match up".

 

These so called "nerfs" there going to get isn't going to change much of anything at all, the same people who complained about how "hard" the nerf was to them last patch "destroyed" mesmer but yet.... they are the ideal class in this game for PvP that can do it ALL and i mean ALL .... Bunker, Power,Condi. and even Support mesmer is a legit thing again.

 

Make it less toxic to fight if we don't have to deal with more then 4 clones at a time at the very least please.... but when u get more then that it's just downright fucking stupid to deal with ... imagine with 2 mesmer at middle adding onto scourge the amount of cluster shit being tossed around a single area for battle can literally give someone a seizure.

[Devilman.1532]

Well its like WoW PvP in the early days before Lich King you could tell what the PvP devs played and favored lol.....Paladin. All day. Here its easy to see what they favor as well as this post and the "balancing" shows.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Devilman.1532" said:

> Well its like WoW PvP in the early days before Lich King you could tell what the PvP devs played and favored lol.....Paladin. All day. Here its easy to see what they favor as well as this post and the "balancing" shows.

 

Except that’s not true in Anet’s case. There are multiple devs, Ruby in particular, that have made know how much they dislike/hate the Mesmer class. It’s more that Mesmer got lucky in having @"Robert Gee.9246" working on the class. He’s one of the few devs there I think understands the classes. Other devs that have worked on the rest of the classes.... well they just don’t stand up imo.

 

The other issue is the devs don’t know *how* to balance Mesmer. It is either going to perform well against beginner/average players and be mediocre against good/high level players or be absolutely useless period. Pre HoT it was useless. The only reason you would take a Mesmer is portal but any thief could shut Mesmer down. Post HoT they’ve put Mesmer in a good spot mechanically but now it overpowers other specs because they haven’t been given good designs/been nerfed for seemingly no reason.

[zoopop.5630]

@"Robert Gee.9246" you got some explaining to do my friend if you are apart of the Mesmer design/buffs they were given.

 

in all seriousness this needs to be address before another season of another over powered class being spammed by everyone... and having more then 1 mesmer on the team is going to be a problem. Imagine double scoruges , double mesmer and a warrior..... LoL 2018 season 11 cluster hell.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Remember when all the mesmers were crying that Warriors were Arenanet's favored child?

 

Ha ha haha.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> Mesmer is in a unique place where litterally all 7 of their traitlines are strong with multiple solid traits in most tiers. Nerfing the current most popular traits will result in them just swapping over to the next most broken setup with minimal loss in power. I would say changes should be mostly aimed at elements that are used in many different builds such as weapons, utilities, and shatters themselves.

 

There is way too much AI puked out by Mesmers for PvP right now. They need to hard cap mesmer AI, or make some sort of negative effect for spamming it. E.g. Each AI past 3 damage dealt by mesmer is reduced by 25%, or loses health, or get slow.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

This was one complaint that I forshadowed. The Confusion was nothing compared to the DPS mirage. Essentially the neither need to nerf DPS (which can easily destroy dps mirage) or change/buff the condi output a bit of the DoT variant to give a PvP or WvW mirage more options on builds. Until one of these are done, DPS one shot or clone spam mirage is here to stay

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Remember when all the mesmers were crying that Warriors were Arenanet's favored child?

>

> Ha ha haha.

 

They still are

[BikeIsGone.8675]

So after countless threads about how OP the GS burst on mesmer is (which btw has been basically the same since 2012 and was never considered "meta"), NOW its the AI spam......Not the perma 25 might, perma protection, the nigh-OPness that is chaotic persistence or the insane mobility from sword ambush.....but AI spam.

Please try again with another thread. Once you have figured out what the actual issues with mesmer are.

 

 

[Axl.8924]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Remember when all the mesmers were crying that Warriors were Arenanet's favored child?

>

> Ha ha haha.

 

At least its not like necros who are on the chopping block constantly for gutting and chopping.Necros might get tons of attention, but the wrong kind.

So far necro is at the bottom of the dps boards and support, and once they get nerfed in pvp, it will be complete and they won't be competitive anymore there either.

[Aza.2105]

> @"BikeIsGone.8675" said:

> So after countless threads about how OP the GS burst on mesmer is (which btw has been basically the same since 2012 and was never considered "meta"), NOW its the AI spam......Not the perma 25 might, perma protection, the nigh-OPness that is chaotic persistence or the insane mobility from sword ambush.....but AI spam.

> Please try again with another thread. Once you have figured out what the actual issues with mesmer are.

>

>

 

AI spam has always been a complaint in gw2. That's really nothing new.

[Ithilwen.1529]

The Mesmer redesign was expressly to force shattering. That requires that we have clones. So, ANET cannot reduce clones without either completely reverting the most recent redesign or utterly crippling Mesmer.

 

It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

 

This is a learn to play issue.

[bravan.3876]

Mesmer still can only have 3 not shattered clones at the same time, the problem is the phantasm spam not the clone spam. Is it so hard to understand??? Clones are not phantasms!

Phantasm spam leads to the clutter on screen and is combined with the ridiculous high dmg they do on their one attack. Phantasm skills will get higher cd with the planned nerfs but that is not enough. They need to count into the max of 3 illusions up rules again and should get shattered also before they finished their one attack. They still can turn into clones after one attack but they don't need to make exorbitant dmg on this one attack, because no shattermes let phantasms live longer than for one attack anyway. Means: revert 2 of the 3 changes Anet did to phantams and nerf the dmg of most of the phantasmskills. This is spoken only for PvP and WvW. I don't know if it helps to write this that often to higher the chance of Anet think about it but why not try...