RAIDS LACK CLASS DIVERSITY- Possible Solutions.

[Geisterlicht.6083]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > > Class diversity is higher than it's ever been. What is this even

> > > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > > >

> > > > In raids thats true unless you look at the broken dps. Named scourge, weaver and mirage. Weaver is just the best power dps right now. Scourge epi bounce outperforms every dps build there is by a huge margin and mirage is just the best condi build in all other cases.

> > > > Well for bosses like Xera most of the dps builds are almost equal but bosses like dhuum, matthias or SH have the worst class diversity ever.

> > >

> > > Viable? lol. People clear fractals every day with non-meta trash comps. You mean fractals have one "optimal" dps slot. A world of difference.

> > >

> > > As far as raids go what you're describing is diversity and specialization. That what people wanted? Oh thats right, people want to live in a fantasy land where all professions are all equally viable in every role at every time in every place and it doesn't matter what DPS classes you pick. No thanks, I'd rather there were incentives to find synergies and different builds were optimal in different places.

> >

> > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

> >

> > Finding and using a good synergy was using Rev and Holo so they would buff each other. Not worth anymore because alacrity destroyed Rev and Holo should just play Thermal or buff scourges/mirages.

> > Big Hitbox -> Weaver

> > Epi bounce possible -> Scourge are not really good synergies. Weaver also outdamages Thermal Vision Holo on Vale Guardian, a small hitbox target.

> > There are multiple Professions optimal nowhere right now. The alacrity and chrono change butchered Engineer and Revenant. Only Mirage got confusion nerf compensation.

> > Warrior can be played core, Spellbreaker, and Berserker and has places for it everywhere while Engineer has only a niche on Holo on some Bosses. Thief could just not exist and nobody would notice. Guardian is most of the time not even decent. Revenent needs compensation for the alacrity nerf and the power variant needs either way higher dps or utlity or at least sword rework so more than pressing aa and 2 once in a while is possible.

> > Mesmer got a rework after just 5years. Maybe rev will get 1 in 2 then.

> >

> > Most of the bosses can be done by the meta classes with half a team. Saying the rest can be filled with trash and you will still be able to kill the boss is not wrong but that doesn't make the trash professions better.

> > Tempest defense could be removed on weaver for a start. 2% per boon modifier could use a cap so its not that ridiculous with a chaos chrono. Nerfing it to 1% would make it super bad without chaos chrono though.

> > Engi bombs were even nerfed so sword has better aa in last balance update. Their devs just hate engineers with a passion. No wonder like nobody plays them.

>

> Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.

 

That was not his point.

You can clear anything with trash yes, but I do not enjoy playing trash.

 

Today we may have more dps builds available than ever before, but at the same time we have the worst balance since FA staff tempest.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Geisterlicht.6083" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > > > @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > > > > > Class diversity is higher than it's ever been. What is this even

> > > > > Fractals have 1 viable dps slot with weaver. There is no point in playing something else there.

> > > > >

> > > > > In raids thats true unless you look at the broken dps. Named scourge, weaver and mirage. Weaver is just the best power dps right now. Scourge epi bounce outperforms every dps build there is by a huge margin and mirage is just the best condi build in all other cases.

> > > > > Well for bosses like Xera most of the dps builds are almost equal but bosses like dhuum, matthias or SH have the worst class diversity ever.

> > > >

> > > > Viable? lol. People clear fractals every day with non-meta trash comps. You mean fractals have one "optimal" dps slot. A world of difference.

> > > >

> > > > As far as raids go what you're describing is diversity and specialization. That what people wanted? Oh thats right, people want to live in a fantasy land where all professions are all equally viable in every role at every time in every place and it doesn't matter what DPS classes you pick. No thanks, I'd rather there were incentives to find synergies and different builds were optimal in different places.

> > >

> > > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

> > >

> > > Finding and using a good synergy was using Rev and Holo so they would buff each other. Not worth anymore because alacrity destroyed Rev and Holo should just play Thermal or buff scourges/mirages.

> > > Big Hitbox -> Weaver

> > > Epi bounce possible -> Scourge are not really good synergies. Weaver also outdamages Thermal Vision Holo on Vale Guardian, a small hitbox target.

> > > There are multiple Professions optimal nowhere right now. The alacrity and chrono change butchered Engineer and Revenant. Only Mirage got confusion nerf compensation.

> > > Warrior can be played core, Spellbreaker, and Berserker and has places for it everywhere while Engineer has only a niche on Holo on some Bosses. Thief could just not exist and nobody would notice. Guardian is most of the time not even decent. Revenent needs compensation for the alacrity nerf and the power variant needs either way higher dps or utlity or at least sword rework so more than pressing aa and 2 once in a while is possible.

> > > Mesmer got a rework after just 5years. Maybe rev will get 1 in 2 then.

> > >

> > > Most of the bosses can be done by the meta classes with half a team. Saying the rest can be filled with trash and you will still be able to kill the boss is not wrong but that doesn't make the trash professions better.

> > > Tempest defense could be removed on weaver for a start. 2% per boon modifier could use a cap so its not that ridiculous with a chaos chrono. Nerfing it to 1% would make it super bad without chaos chrono though.

> > > Engi bombs were even nerfed so sword has better aa in last balance update. Their devs just hate engineers with a passion. No wonder like nobody plays them.

> >

> > Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.

>

> That was not his point.

> You can clear anything with trash yes, but I do not enjoy playing trash.

>

> Today we may have more dps builds available than ever before, but at the same time we have the worst balance since FA staff tempest.

 

That is the point. He uses term viable as a synonym to optimal which is incorrect. Saying that weaver is only **viable** dps build is spreading misinformation.

[LadyKitty.6120]

It's mainly a community issue. Community tells new-ish raiders to play metabuilds 'cause they're sooooo easy (especially DH), just go to SC and learn the metarotation. However, apparently the metarotations still seem too hard for many pugs to pull off, in which case they'd be better off playing build with 3-5k less DPS potential, but which also are super-easy to play to max. Power dagger deadeye, for example, has 26,5k damage potential without infusions just by casting mark, shadow flare and auto-attacking. Just requires that you stick on boss. Power renegade is also in similar position. Just activate hammers/impossible odds, cast Citadel command when entering dwarf stance and sword 5 when entering assassin stance and just auto-attack. You can also do similar thing with demon/assassin condirene. There's lots of other builds like that. However, most of the community just seems to be under illusion that metabuilds still outperform them, even if played horrible. Though the difference between super-braindead auto-attack deadeye and power DH is just 18%. So, power DHs should pull 80% of full potential to match 100% power deadeye. And looking at GW2raidar, average DH pulls out 65-70% of DH's potential.

 

But that won't change until community changes or those builds are changed to 30% better. How likely those are to happen? Won't hapened. Power soulbeast and reaper are the prime examples of how Anet doesn't boof the weaker builds to make them more accepted (considering the difficulty, power soulbeast requires 4-5k DPS boost). And metasheep just follow the metatrain to the point of foolishness.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Yas some classes needs some buffs but meta is much more diverse then it used to be. Its not 5 warriors. Ele is not the only dps profession.

 

On some bosses weaver is best dps, on some scourge and on some mirage.

 

Also you have to understand that alacrity was changed last patch so classes that were hit harder might be compensated next patch.

 

And for me its much better if we dont have diferent meta every 3 months.

1) i love classes i play so i wouldnt probably swap if my classes were destroyed and instead i wouldnt probably play

2) players that want to start raiding/doing t4/cms and dont have acces to bank full of ascended chests would have to get gear and they would know that it will be obsolete in 3 months -> this looks like the thing gw is trying to avoid

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> It's mainly a community issue. Community tells new-ish raiders to play metabuilds 'cause they're sooooo easy (especially DH), just go to SC and learn the metarotation. However, apparently the metarotations still seem too hard for many pugs to pull off, in which case they'd be better off playing build with 3-5k less DPS potential, but which also are super-easy to play to max. Power dagger deadeye, for example, has 26,5k damage potential without infusions just by casting mark, shadow flare and auto-attacking. Just requires that you stick on boss. Power renegade is also in similar position. Just activate hammers/impossible odds, cast Citadel command when entering dwarf stance and sword 5 when entering assassin stance and just auto-attack. You can also do similar thing with demon/assassin condirene. There's lots of other builds like that. However, most of the community just seems to be under illusion that metabuilds still outperform them, even if played horrible. Though the difference between super-braindead auto-attack deadeye and power DH is just 18%. So, power DHs should pull 80% of full potential to match 100% power deadeye. And looking at GW2raidar, average DH pulls out 65-70% of DH's potential.

>

> But that won't change until community changes or those builds are changed to 30% better. How likely those are to happen? Won't hapened. Power soulbeast and reaper are the prime examples of how Anet doesn't boof the weaker builds to make them more accepted (considering the difficulty, power soulbeast requires 4-5k DPS boost). And metasheep just follow the metatrain to the point of foolishness.

 

While I agree with the premise, I have to admit that if someone has problems with playing DH, it's not really a build problem anymore.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Yesterday i joined group at last bos nightmare cm (as a chrono). We cleared easily and after the fight they said to me that last chrono had 18% quickness uptime. From my perspective it is much harder to have 18 percent then 100 (as long as you cast skills).

 

There wwill always be diference between skilled players and begginers.

If you have a build that is top tier for begginers and for experianced that it is unbalanced.

 

Weaver is example here. Experianced player do amazing dps while begginer is on the ground. If you nerf weaver in line with others than begginers will not try andexperianced will go for something with easier rotation or more ultility.

 

DH is one of the easier classes so if it was same dps as weaver for experianced player it would be op for begginers.

 

The problem here is that begginers think weaver doesnt require practise or that if something is bad for speadclears it is bad for them too.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> And for me its much better if we dont have diferent meta every 3 months.

> 1) i love classes i play so i wouldnt probably swap if my classes were destroyed and instead i wouldnt probably play

> 2) players that want to start raiding/doing t4/cms and dont have acces to bank full of ascended chests would have to get gear and they would know that it will be obsolete in 3 months -> this looks like the thing gw is trying to avoid

 

1) Templates!

2) Account unlocks!

 

Solved!

 

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > And for me its much better if we dont have diferent meta every 3 months.

> > 1) i love classes i play so i wouldnt probably swap if my classes were destroyed and instead i wouldnt probably play

> > 2) players that want to start raiding/doing t4/cms and dont have acces to bank full of ascended chests would have to get gear and they would know that it will be obsolete in 3 months -> this looks like the thing gw is trying to avoid

>

> 1) Templates!

> 2) Account unlocks!

>

> Solved!

>

>

 

Nope. If one month condi mirage is op and next its power revenant i ned diferent armor type and weapons.

[Xca.9721]

At the end of the day, you can kill every raid boss with a comp that contains some heal, support and any dps class that is available. Its not as effective as 6 weavers, bs, 2 chronos and 1 druid, but noone is forced to play the perfect comp.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

 

100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

 

I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

>

> 100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

>

> I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

 

Some professions struggle to get 3 builds in total, not mentioning DPS ones

 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

>

> 100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

>

> I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

 

The first paragraph was about fractals. Should have made that better visible in hindsight. 100% difference means one build does twice the amount of dps. Thats not even an exaggeration in fractals in some cases assuming high skill level. Burst during exposed debuff with tempest defense active means Weaver is the best burst profession in fractals. They can skip phases with insane dps going up to 100k-120k.

No other build comes even close to that.

 

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.

 

With good players yes. But if you play with new or inexperienced players and all of them reach like 50% of the benchmark stuff becomes incredible hard when something like deadeye/soulbeast is played at dhuum and you dont have any weaver. And yes people can reach 50% of double shortbow soulbeast benchmark. Don't ask me how they do it but its possible.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.

>

> With good players yes. But if you play with new or inexperienced players and all of them reach like 50% of the benchmark stuff becomes incredible hard when something like deadeye/soulbeast is played at dhuum and you dont have any weaver. And yes people can reach 50% of double shortbow soulbeast benchmark. Don't ask me how they do it but its possible.

 

Actually teaching players from the start how to skip mechanics is bad idea. They need practice with the mechanic itself, not with being carried by overblown profession balanse performance.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.

> >

> > With good players yes. But if you play with new or inexperienced players and all of them reach like 50% of the benchmark stuff becomes incredible hard when something like deadeye/soulbeast is played at dhuum and you dont have any weaver. And yes people can reach 50% of double shortbow soulbeast benchmark. Don't ask me how they do it but its possible.

>

> Actually teaching players from the start how to skip mechanics is bad idea. They need practice with the mechanic itself, not with being carried by overblown profession balanse performance.

 

This. This. THIS.

Kitty hates nothing like people who are soooo good at pulling their rotation but fail at ignoring the mechanics and...fail the mechanics so hard that squad wipes 'cause they're used to ignoring them. Kitty's literally seen some "no-green VG" squads that did good DPS, yes...but first wiped 3 times no-green way and then wiped around 73% normal way 'cause they had 0 clue about greens and stuff. Even every newbie squad Kitty's seen have got at least to 1st split.

As long as mechanics are dealt with properly, they're 0 issues. But for ex. at Samarog, people rather take DPS than CC skills. Which has led to some wipes that shouldn't have happened, especially since Sam is one of the lowest DPS checks where only bringing enough CC to break Sam and pushing Rigom in matters.

 

Pretty much the only bosses where DPS becomes an issue are VG (if squad is totally abyssmally worst 1%), Gorseval, Sloth and Xera. Even KC can be done with surprisingly low burst DPS as long as orb is pushed properly. Sab, Matt, KC, MO, Sam and Deimos are pretty much mechanic checks (among those, Kitty's only seen Matt enrage once and even then it was easily manageable with excessive heals, though it went 3 minutes overtime to 13mins total).

Cairn is kinda mechanics-check, but no-greens strat actually works quite well even with newbies there since they don't get downed long run away from squad.

 

E: And even enrages are apparently quite forgiving since they're mostly soft enrages. +200% incoming damage on VG, KC and Deimos, +500% on Sam and Sabetha (does she even hit other than flakking?). Cairn's enrage isn't really worth mentioning.

[Xca.9721]

Good dps make the bosses so much easier to kill since u can skip many mechanics. Outhealing the greens at VG, green guy at 25 % deimos going up alone, 10 % cc at samarog /gg ´s are all tactics for faster and safer kills. However, in my opinion its the best to learn the raids when ure playing with equally experienced players. Your dps will be shit, which makes it harder to kill the boss. By failing mechanics that wipe your group u will be extra paying attention to them. And nothing feels better to get your first raid kill after countless wipes.

[Nowaki.2136]

Virtually you can clear any raid with any class, including power reaper, but "being able to" doesnt mean is optimal, not even good...... you can kill KC with a condi team, tho the fight will go so much easier and faster if you go power, and insanely faster if you stack weavers, if you go full weavers as dps on dhuum your kill time is gonna be half of whatever other comp you may think of... The core for most speed clears strategies is to see how can you fit an extra weaver in to replace anything else, and how can you control the tank patter so the weavers get the most out of it, after that is just give weavers the boons they need (chaos chrono) and see how can they be baby sitted so they dont have to do anyting but rotation (distor-aegis share)... speed clears revolves around how can you spoil your weavers cuz their damage is just insane (leaving the epi Vg aside ofc, which will most likely get nerfed next patch and somehow as usual weavers will just get buffed one way or another).

[Vinceman.4572]

It's always good to have high dps but: different groups - different playstyles. Yesterday I watched Nike's stream in DnTs "casual weekly clear". They had some terrible wipes there when trying to perform the dps strats. Of course they have the ability to go for all the better & faster strats (and certainly they were fast in the end although the wipes) but it's a fact that more than 90% of the raid statics/groups/pugs aren't on the same skill level.

 

Also, you don't learn encounters if you rely on chronos and druids to aegis block/share/outheal all the stuff for the team. Personally I'm very happy that I've had to run VG as intended the first weeks, dodge all the Gorse slams, MO's statue explosion, Sloth shakes and many more. When I'm running in pugs and the chronos are not on point or not __that__ experienced it often ends in a catastrophe/desaster because a lot of players just don't care or don't know about all the mechanics of a boss.

So, I'd rather have people knowing and playing the mechanics by heart (and let's be serious here: almost all of them are not very hard to comprehend and to execute) than the top dps weaver that is downed everytime while channeling his whole meteor shower because "otherwise I lose massive dps" - "No, boy you don't! You are in a pug/casual static run and not speed running so it doesn't matter if you cancel your stuff, do one single dodge and then get back to your rota again."

[CptAurellian.9537]

For the average pug, I'd assume that weaver is one of the worst dps available (high skill floor, bad CC, squishy). Still that doesn't justify how far it is ahead of any other class when put in the right hands.

[NikeEU.7690]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

>

> If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

 

I think you're confused by my position. I've advocated for a long time that the trait Tempest Defense is broken in fractals and ought to be outright deleted in addition to a general rebalance of Weaver.

 

My post is in response to the nonsensical idea that the fact that some builds are optimal in one area and others optimal in another is bad, which is what the OP and several others advocated.

 

[ToPNoP.2493]

yea, not really being welcome on what I want to play is why I don't raid much. and I don't know how to find a team, I would raid alone if I could.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

> >

> > 100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

> >

> > I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

>

> Some professions struggle to get 3 builds in total, not mentioning DPS ones

>

>

 

Elementalist: power staff weaver, power sw/d weaver, grieving staff weaver(uses different rotation than power) (40% difference between best and worst)

Engineer: power rifle holo, condiengi, power hammer scrapper (first is <35% better than last)

Guardian: condi firebrand, power dh, condi guardian (condi-FB has been reported to be about 15% better than condiguard).

Mesmer: condi axe mirage, power dps chrono, condi staff mirage (first is about 20% better than )

Necromancer: condiscourge, condireaper, power reaper (1st a bit over 10%better than 3rd)

Ranger: condi d+t/sb soulbeast, condi sb/sb sb, power gs/sword+axe soulbeast, condi axe+torch/shortbow ranger. (1st is about 25% better than last 2)

Renegade: condirenegade (rene+demon), condirenegade (demon+assassin), power renegade, condirevenant (1st about 15-20% better than last).

Thief: condi-DD, power rifle DE, power DD (1st about 10% better than last)

Warrior: power spellbreaker, condi zerker, power zerker (1st is about 15% better than last)

 

Kitty listed the first 3 builds with different playstyles. She won't even bother with alternative weapon sets that fit within "1st is 25% better than this version" and between the first and last of each class. Even 20% list would be very long.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

> >

> > 100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

> >

> > I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

>

> The first paragraph was about fractals. Should have made that better visible in hindsight. 100% difference means one build does twice the amount of dps. Thats not even an exaggeration in fractals in some cases assuming high skill level. Burst during exposed debuff with tempest defense active means Weaver is the best burst profession in fractals. They can skip phases with insane dps going up to 100k-120k.

> No other build comes even close to that.

>

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.

>

> With good players yes. But if you play with new or inexperienced players and all of them reach like 50% of the benchmark stuff becomes incredible hard when something like deadeye/soulbeast is played at dhuum and you dont have any weaver. And yes people can reach 50% of double shortbow soulbeast benchmark. Don't ask me how they do it but its possible.

 

Yes, 100% can also mean twice as much damage.

 

The thing is that I see so many people claim that the meta is the only way, and that it provides such a huge advantage over other builds, except they never back that up. Have they actually gone and tested every single build and compared the DPS? Or so they simply rely on those that provide the meta builds and assume that the difference must be large?

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

> >

> > 100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

> >

> > I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

>

> Some professions struggle to get 3 builds in total, not mentioning DPS ones

>

>

 

You sure? Just because a build isn’t advertised, doesn’t mean that it does not exist.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

> > >

> > > 100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

> > >

> > > I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

> >

> > Some professions struggle to get 3 builds in total, not mentioning DPS ones

> >

> >

>

> You sure? Just because a build isn’t advertised, doesn’t mean that it does not exist.

 

It depends on how you count them I suppose.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > If the difference between 2nd best option and best option is like 50%-100% in dps there is no other viable option for a static. Its like low manning fractals for daily clears. Wasting everyones time.

> > >

> > > 100% difference in DPS? There are second best builds that do zero damage?

> > >

> > > I challenge you to list the top 3 builds for each class and then compare their DPS.

> >

> > The first paragraph was about fractals. Should have made that better visible in hindsight. 100% difference means one build does twice the amount of dps. Thats not even an exaggeration in fractals in some cases assuming high skill level. Burst during exposed debuff with tempest defense active means Weaver is the best burst profession in fractals. They can skip phases with insane dps going up to 100k-120k.

> > No other build comes even close to that.

> >

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > Except even for raids you need no more than 50% of the benchmark.

> >

> > With good players yes. But if you play with new or inexperienced players and all of them reach like 50% of the benchmark stuff becomes incredible hard when something like deadeye/soulbeast is played at dhuum and you dont have any weaver. And yes people can reach 50% of double shortbow soulbeast benchmark. Don't ask me how they do it but its possible.

>

> Yes, 100% can also mean twice as much damage.

>

> The thing is that I see so many people claim that the meta is the only way, and that it provides such a huge advantage over other builds, except they never back that up. Have they actually gone and tested every single build and compared the DPS? Or so they simply rely on those that provide the meta builds and assume that the difference must be large?

 

It's exactly that. None really tests any other than the main builds (or if they do, they don't publish the numbers 'cause "trash builds are trash", like one of the former benchmarkers used to say). If it isn't meta, it must be at least 50% worse.

If some alternative build benchmarks 1k lower than meta, it's deemed trash by these lovely metasheep. For ex. sw+torch/gs DH is just a tiny bit behind meta sc+torch/gs. But how many sword dhs you guys have seen during last 2 years? For similar reasons, none's done a proper power soulbeast test. Yes, there's that 25,8k but that one had more than couple issues.

 

Kitty did try to provide some numbers average players should reach at least on alternative builds (to get some numbers to compare) but she didn't have the right to do that 'cause she's trash, way worse than average, skillclicker and didn't spend hours practising per build (or that's what many super-skilled metasheep liked to say as someone else than speedrunners publishing numbers is pure blasphemy). And after raiding on various builds and comparing the results to gw2raidar's averages, Kitty was actually noticeably higher than average players with max 30 minutes of golem practise. Currently in top 10%-top 20% on some of the metabuilds (having not practised outside raid situations and the few test tries for numbers).

 

To be honest, Kitty's kinda given up about it. Unless devs balance it or some 1% players start testing out alternatives (they won't 'cause they speedrun and only care about very best alternative), nothing will change in that regard.