lordhelmos.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Because balance is in disarray among all classes, I think it is better to target and discuss specific mechanics that are problematic: **Skills that provide invulnerability and/or full condition immunity while still allowing players to deal damage** Classic example of having your cake and eating it too. If your going to be able to mitigate 100% of the damage incoming to you, there needs to be an offensive price. **Skills that autoproc invulnerability, stability, or condition immunity without having any input provided by the player** Defensive autoprocs are just straight cancer. Why even bother playing when the AI can play for you AND better than you? **Insanely high burst skills that can be done with less than a 1 second animation delay and/or initiated from stealth** Backstab, Death's Judgement, Mind Wrack.... there are so many of these. Being able to 100-0 someone with no counterplay is unfun for everyone. These skills need to have huge tells otherwise you get new players that join Gw2 and get one shot without having any idea about what just happened then just uninstall the next hour. This is one of the biggest reasons many of the new people I tried to get onboard this game just quit. They just cite "this game is too full of BS to be fun." Burst skills done correctly are things like Final Thrust and Eviscerate on warrior. **Condition auto procs and auto removes** Stacking 3-4 more conditions on someone just by autoattacking is plain stupid. The condition/clear game is too dependent on autoprocs and autoremoves, surviving conditions is way more dependent on the AI then the player. Manual removals seem to matter very little with the rate that conditions are applied. The entire condition game needs to be slowed down and be opened for strategic decisions. Condition play right now is just spam spam spam. **Passive Traits with greater effects than manually activated skills** Burst skills, immobilize, stuns, and dazes should be things that are manually activated. The fact that so many of these exist on autoproc skills is just bad design. AI wars. **Self-stackers that can obtain maximum boon benefits without the assistance of teammates** Self-stack 25 might, blow up everyone with 4500 power driven bursts. Who needs support classes and teammates right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Add another one, extreme disengage potential where the only way to kill the enemy is to global them or hope they get greedy and if neither happens they can just reset with no real risk and come back again till they finally get a good opening and win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordhelmos.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Author Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"ArthurDent.9538" said: > Add another one, extreme disengage potential where the only way to kill the enemy is to global them or hope they get greedy and if neither happens they can just reset with no real risk and come back again till they finally get a good opening and win. Good call, any teleport or invul disengage over 900 with a short CD is pretty BS in wvw. Especially on classes that can stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obindo.6802 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Offensive instant casts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Excellent bulletpoints LordHelmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kageseigi.2150 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"lordhelmos.7623" said: > Backstab, Death's Judgement, Mind Wrack In the defense of Backstab, opposed to the others, it must be done inside melee range. And by its nature, it requires Stealth to even be accessible. As for the rest of the post, spot on :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > @"lordhelmos.7623" said: > > Backstab, Death's Judgement, Mind Wrack > > In the defense of Backstab, opposed to the others, it must be done inside melee range. And by its nature, it requires Stealth to even be accessible. > > As for the rest of the post, spot on :-) There is no defense for backstab....you can be hit for like 10k dmg from stealth while having over 2.2k toughness which is around 3k armor...another example of poor design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I don't see an issue with immunity spells like Defy Pain or Berserker Stance for condis. They have a short duration and without them survivability would be so limited that they'd literally be unplayable. Can't really talk about the rest. There's nothing really that frustrates me or that I feel is inherently imbalanced. Perhaps being able to permastealth as a thief/deadeye, though that requires some knowledge about what you are doing. One person shouldn't be able to stealth effectively enough to avoid a 20 man squad hunting them down in a keep lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Skills that do damage. Skills that prevent damage. Remove these and we got a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kageseigi.2150 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > There is no defense for backstab....you can be hit for like 10k dmg from stealth while having over 2.2k toughness which is around 3k armor...another example of poor design Rogues ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordhelmos.7623 Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Kageseigi.2150" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > There is no defense for backstab....you can be hit for like 10k dmg from stealth while having over 2.2k toughness which is around 3k armor...another example of poor design > > Rogues ;-) I would go as far to say that despite its age, WoW rogue pvp combat is superior to Gw2 from a tactics and balanced standpoint. In WoW a rogue backstabbing you gets his one backstab and that's it. He also needs to sap you to get the full damage and every class had a stunbreak trinket. This was done right in that to gain a full burst the player had to: 1.) Conduct a setup maneuver 2.) Generate an extremely obvious tell that provides room for counterplay (stun/sap) 3.) Fully commit to the fight if executing the attack and if retreat was needed, an extremely valuable high recharge CD would need to be burned. The problem is that Gw2 does none of these things for many classes. In Gw2 a thief can backstab you for 10k, and if he fails, retreat into permastealth. Backstab only has a 1s CD and can be used immedately again after restealthing. There is no risk/reward gameplay because a thief can backstab whenever and however they want and try over and over and over and over again until they succeed. In other MMOs with assassin classes, you get your one shot and you have to fully commit to the fight after doing so. There are way to many easy reset buttons that allow a player with low skill to just reattempt what should be an extremely risky action until they make it. Allowance if this kind of stuff is the antithesis of balance. This is just thief, there are other classes and/or combinations of elite specs that have even worse tools. Compared to some of the other BS out there, backstab is generally tame (e.g. mesmer clonespam shatter, sourge instamelt condition bomb that covers the whole room, death's judgement instagib, unblockable 40% damage rapid fire from 1500 with soulbeast) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"lordhelmos.7623" said: > Because balance is in disarray among all classes, I think it is better to target and discuss specific mechanics that are problematic: > > **Skills that provide invulnerability and/or full condition immunity while still allowing players to deal damage** > Classic example of having your cake and eating it too. If your going to be able to mitigate 100% of the damage incoming to you, there needs to be an offensive price. > > **Skills that autoproc invulnerability, stability, or condition immunity without having any input provided by the player** > Defensive autoprocs are just straight cancer. Why even bother playing when the AI can play for you AND better than you? > > **Insanely high burst skills that can be done with less than a 1 second animation delay and/or initiated from stealth** > Backstab, Death's Judgement, Mind Wrack.... there are so many of these. Being able to 100-0 someone with no counterplay is unfun for everyone. These skills need to have huge tells otherwise you get new players that join Gw2 and get one shot without having any idea about what just happened then just uninstall the next hour. This is one of the biggest reasons many of the new people I tried to get onboard this game just quit. They just cite "this game is too full of BS to be fun." Burst skills done correctly are things like Final Thrust and Eviscerate on warrior. > > **Condition auto procs and auto removes** > Stacking 3-4 more conditions on someone just by autoattacking is plain stupid. The condition/clear game is too dependent on autoprocs and autoremoves, surviving conditions is way more dependent on the AI then the player. Manual removals seem to matter very little with the rate that conditions are applied. The entire condition game needs to be slowed down and be opened for strategic decisions. Condition play right now is just spam spam spam. > > **Passive Traits with greater effects than manually activated skills** > Burst skills, immobilize, stuns, and dazes should be things that are manually activated. The fact that so many of these exist on autoproc skills is just bad design. AI wars. > > **Self-stackers that can obtain maximum boon benefits without the assistance of teammates** > Self-stack 25 might, blow up everyone with 4500 power driven bursts. Who needs support classes and teammates right? > > That mean Power REAPER is the most balanced specialization in the game right now cuz dont have all of the above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Not that this sort of conversation isn't appreciated, but it still astounds me that it has taken this long for people to stop demonizing people who criticized GW2 for being a no-skill game given how it exclusively revolves around the bullet points at the top of the thread. Since launch, the game has been like that on all classes; everything gravitated as much as it could toward that paradigm: * medihammer guard * bull's rush/100blades * d/d heal tank still 50%'ed people with a single firegrab * 100nades * thief in general * powershatter has always been this * power necro autos and every build slotted skills and traits to either escape after the meme burst (teleports, invuln, stealth, abilities with evade frames) or passively insulate themselves from risk while they attacked (invuln, teleport engagement without a tell, stealth, attacks with evade--oh wait they're all the same thing). The only class that couldn't do so was necro, but it instead took skills that would passively generate life force because that was as close as they could functionally get to invuln rotations. The worst part is that if you remove everything from the first post, you basically have nothing left in GW2. This doesn't mean that those things aren't actively bad for GW2--they definitely are--but stripping them from the game would only prove how shallow and incomplete this game is on the whole. It basically means that GW2 would need a global overhaul that the devs have never been willing to give and one that the current playerbase is too behaviorally damaged to accept (for instance, I *still* see holosmiths do the corona trait spam with nobody around even though it was changed to only apply stab on hit). GW2 is basically in a hopeless spot. It won't get a rework, and it will continue to fossilize beneath the swamp of flavor-based design bloat that nu-anet has been churning out since 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kageseigi.2150 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"lordhelmos.7623" said: > I would go as far to say that despite its age, WoW rogue pvp combat is superior to Gw2 from a tactics and balanced standpoint. Oh, you'll definitely not get any defense from me about GW2's combat or balance. But I was speaking of the classic Dungeons and Dragons' Rogue ;-) > Compared to some of the other BS out there, backstab is generally tame (e.g. mesmer clonespam shatter, sourge instamelt condition bomb that covers the whole room, death's judgement instagib, unblockable 40% damage rapid fire from 1500 with soulbeast) I do believe that is also a defense for Backstab specifically... especially when it requires Stealth, which is a hurdle in itself for many Thief builds. It also fits the concept and character of the Thief as a single-target focused glass cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > How about offensive autoprocs ?:> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > > > > How about offensive autoprocs ?:> those too, especially the mesmer ones edit: you cant be baiting me for the PI for thief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > > > > > > > How about offensive autoprocs ?:> > > those too, especially the mesmer ones > > edit: you cant be baiting me for the PI for thief? > Panic Strike is probably the single most potent offensive proc in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > > > > > > > > > > How about offensive autoprocs ?:> > > > > those too, especially the mesmer ones > > > > edit: you cant be baiting me for the PI for thief? > > > > Panic Strike is probably the single most potent offensive proc in the game. The poison or immob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about offensive autoprocs ?:> > > > > > > those too, especially the mesmer ones > > > > > > edit: you cant be baiting me for the PI for thief? > > > > > > > Panic Strike is probably the single most potent offensive proc in the game. > > The poison or immob? The immobilize proc. Not being able to dodge for 1.5 seconds is almost always a death sentence when dealing with something as bursty as a thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about offensive autoprocs ?:> > > > > > > > > those too, especially the mesmer ones > > > > > > > > edit: you cant be baiting me for the PI for thief? > > > > > > > > > > Panic Strike is probably the single most potent offensive proc in the game. > > > > The poison or immob? > > The immobilize proc. Not being able to dodge for 1.5 seconds is almost always a death sentence when dealing with something as bursty as a thief. fine. i wont argue that. makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > Health???? Are you saying Mesmers need to be adjusted down to Ele/Thief base health? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > free crit, invlun, health, block, stab,...ect...all the free defense has to go > > > > Health???? Are you saying Mesmers need to be adjusted down to Ele/Thief base health? He meant necro passive vitality boost may be ? Warrior have great fortitutude still ,also free health :D I doubt he meant to equalize all classes to same amount of HP. Necro/warriors/rev would be displeased :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragmon.6350 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > The worst part is that if you remove everything from the first post, you basically have nothing left in GW2. This doesn't mean that those things aren't actively bad for GW2--they definitely are--but stripping them from the game would only prove how shallow and incomplete this game is on the whole. It basically means that GW2 would need a global overhaul that the devs have never been willing to give and one that the current playerbase is too behaviorally damaged to accept (for instance, I *still* see holosmiths do the corona trait spam with nobody around even though it was changed to only apply stab on hit). GW2 is basically in a hopeless spot. It won't get a rework, and it will continue to fossilize beneath the swamp of flavor-based design bloat that nu-anet has been churning out since 2010. This is the big problem, almost everything they did for sPvP was wrong from the start and that we wont see this changed. I gave up on Anet providing us with half-descent sPvP a long time ago. GIVE US RANDOM & TEAM ARENA OR GTFO ANET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 After reading this it became obvious that reaper is actually where it is supposed to be.. It doesn't have any of the traits mentioned by the OP. \o/ I rejoice since I am not cancer but only a detriment to my team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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