Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > 1. ChronoPhantasma : This trait its the main reason of the current bunker Chrono meta, the OP factor for this trait isn't the dmg but the visual noise . cos **you can literally spam phantasms up to 18+ in a chain if not interrupted so you are literally a RAID BOSS however the AOE dmg can outrun than and destroy the Illusions** WARS 2 , plus **not a lot of mesmers can perfect this build to 1v2 for a fair time** and im sure that if they nerf this trait hard or make a cap to the phantasms spawn the chrono will be banished to oblivion in sPVP so careful with it PLZ . > > **My suggestion is to make a Q for phantasms spawn don't make the spawn phantasm destroy the previous one that's Bad mechanic and will make Chronophantasma useless.** > 2. **Make Continuum Split resurrect you** if you cast it predeath with 1sc stun, this is not OP actually it make sense and it's gonna be a great trade for the next nerfs to Chronophantasma so the Chrono stay playable . > One of the nerfs that Anet did That i hated a lot is the one they did to Continum splite when it could negate fall dmg if casted before you fall . that was a SO fun mechanic and very hard to time out so **just revert that nerf Back**. > My point here is **No one will play an underdog class or build so nerf chronophantasma (no skill trait) buff Continum splite(skill-full mechanic) . and everyone is happy the Chrono main players will love that and the ones who swapped to chrono for Chronophantasma will look somewhere else maybe to RENEGADE OMEGALUL.** I'm just going to let the bold stand on its own merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal. > > > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well. > > > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks. > > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control. > > > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people. > > > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month. > > > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal. > > Gazelles charge was a FGS type effect issue if I remember correctly where it would hit multiple times doing large amounts of damage. > > Not sure why you bring it up to be honest other than you play ranger and possibly a little salty over losing the one shot as my entire point was about multiple high damage sources being on too short a cool down. The issue with Chrono being that it can reduce the cool downs on its skills and double up on them while having a baseline double up on skill use mechanic. If you have issue with the way Gazelle was nerfed or whatever then make your own thread and ask for attention to be brought to it and a fix you think is better. Why is everyone on the internet so obsessed with getting people mad? It's a bit silly. The multiple hits all landed at the same time. In your own words, doing 75-100% of someone's health in a single attack is perfectly fine as long as you can't spam it. Gazelle's Charge was a single attack that did: **"16k damage every 20s. You knew how to avoid the attack, because you could look for its tells and dodge it."** Yet Anet nerfed it heavily and quickly despite it being not able to be spammed. If this skill alone received a 50% damage nerf, and mesmer has access to skills that do just as much damage, multiple times, they should realistically ALL receive 70% damage nerfs MINIMUM to bring them down to a respectable level. Disenchanter should only remove 2 boons and not be unblockable. Defender shouldn't do damage at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal. > > > > > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well. > > > > > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks. > > > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control. > > > > > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people. > > > > > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month. > > > > > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal. > > > > Gazelles charge was a FGS type effect issue if I remember correctly where it would hit multiple times doing large amounts of damage. > > > > Not sure why you bring it up to be honest other than you play ranger and possibly a little salty over losing the one shot as my entire point was about multiple high damage sources being on too short a cool down. The issue with Chrono being that it can reduce the cool downs on its skills and double up on them while having a baseline double up on skill use mechanic. If you have issue with the way Gazelle was nerfed or whatever then make your own thread and ask for attention to be brought to it and a fix you think is better. > > Why is everyone on the internet so obsessed with getting people mad? It's a bit silly. > > The multiple hits all landed at the same time. In your own words, doing 75-100% of someone's health in a single attack is perfectly fine as long as you can't spam it. Gazelle's Charge was a single attack that did: **"16k damage every 20s. You knew how to avoid the attack, because you could look for its tells and dodge it."** > > Yet Anet nerfed it heavily and quickly despite it being not able to be spammed. If this skill alone received a 50% damage nerf, and mesmer has access to skills that do just as much damage, multiple times. They should realistically ALL receive 70% damage nerfs MINIMUM to bring them down to a respectable level. > > Disenchanter should only remove 2 boons. Defender shouldn't do damage at all. But I’m not complaining about Gazelles charge and this thread isn’t about Gazelles or ranger. If anything all you are doing is reinforcing what many mesmer players have been saying recently and that is that the real issues of these incredibly strong skills should be tackled rather than straight up damage nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 While we shouldn't "destroy" the spec, it does need some pretty hard nerfing. Mostly to SoE and Chronophantasma because it's true that the illusions being so spammable is a big problem. A max of 2 phantasms active at once with a Q afterwards for any other summoned phantasms would be appropriate and would definitely make fighting a chrono in a 1v1 lots more manageable and readable. After that you just gotta nerf the damage of the phantasms to a more acceptable level (6k crits from illusionary defenders is a bit much when you consider the player is running paladin (I was even able to pull off 5k crits using mender's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Last week, my second week of playing chrono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > Mesmer is one of the Most fun classes in the game, However After the illusion Rework, some thing got a little bit wrong especially for Chrono : > 1. ChronoPhantasma : This trait its the main reason of the current bunker Chrono meta, the OP factor for this trait isn't the dmg but the visual noise . cos you can literally spam phantasms up to 18+ in a chain if not interrupted so you are literally a RAID BOSS however the AOE dmg can outrun than and destroy the Illusions WARS 2 , plus not a lot of mesmers can perfect this build to 1v2 for a fair time and im sure that if they nerf this trait hard or make a cap to the phantasms spawn the chrono will be banished to oblivion in sPVP so careful with it PLZ . > > **My suggestion is to make a Q for phantasms spawn don't make the spawn phantasm destroy the previous one that's Bad mechanic and will make Chronophantasma useless.** > 2. Make Continuum Split resurrect you if you cast it predeath with 1sc stun, this is not OP actually it make sense and it's gonna be a great trade for the next nerfs to Chronophantasma so the Chrono stay playable . > One of the nerfs that Anet did That i hated a lot is the one they did to Continum splite when it could negate fall dmg if casted before you fall . that was a SO fun mechanic and very hard to time out so just revert that nerf Back. > > * My point here is No one will play an underdog class or build so nerf chronophantasma (no skill trait) buff Continum splite(skill-full mechanic) . and everyone is happy the Chrono main players will love that and the ones who swapped to chrono for Chronophantasma will look somewhere else maybe to RENEGADE OMEGALUL. Hints asking for specific nerfs then requesting buffs to make up for said nerfs this is why mesmers are not allowed to balance themselves their own sense of being fair in the game is an illusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > Mesmer is one of the Most fun classes in the game, However After the illusion Rework, some thing got a little bit wrong especially for Chrono : > > > 1. ChronoPhantasma : This trait its the main reason of the current bunker Chrono meta, the OP factor for this trait isn't the dmg but the visual noise . cos you can literally spam phantasms up to 18+ in a chain if not interrupted so you are literally a RAID BOSS however the AOE dmg can outrun than and destroy the Illusions WARS 2 , plus not a lot of mesmers can perfect this build to 1v2 for a fair time and im sure that if they nerf this trait hard or make a cap to the phantasms spawn the chrono will be banished to oblivion in sPVP so careful with it PLZ . > > > > **My suggestion is to make a Q for phantasms spawn don't make the spawn phantasm destroy the previous one that's Bad mechanic and will make Chronophantasma useless.** > > 2. Make Continuum Split resurrect you if you cast it predeath with 1sc stun, this is not OP actually it make sense and it's gonna be a great trade for the next nerfs to Chronophantasma so the Chrono stay playable . > > One of the nerfs that Anet did That i hated a lot is the one they did to Continum splite when it could negate fall dmg if casted before you fall . that was a SO fun mechanic and very hard to time out so just revert that nerf Back. > > > > * My point here is No one will play an underdog class or build so nerf chronophantasma (no skill trait) buff Continum splite(skill-full mechanic) . and everyone is happy the Chrono main players will love that and the ones who swapped to chrono for Chronophantasma will look somewhere else maybe to RENEGADE OMEGALUL. > > Hints asking for specific nerfs then requesting buffs to make up for said nerfs this is why mesmers are not allowed to balance themselves their own sense of being fair in the game is an illusion Maybe you should check out some of the suggestions in the mesmer forums, there’s about 3 people I would consider fitting into the stereotype you just mentioned but quite a lot know that it’s current state is too strong and have asked for changes to tone it down in the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Threads like this do absolutely nothing to help mesmer get balanced, but they sure do seem to contribute to the growing circlejerk of people asking for the wrong nerfs to the class. Nerfs that don't fix any underlying issues at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > Threads like this do absolutely nothing to help mesmer get balanced, but they sure do seem to contribute to the growing kitten of people asking for the wrong nerfs to the class. Nerfs that don't fix any underlying issues at all. Look at the original poster. You just wasted 2 minutes of your life replying to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 IMO, one of the underlying issues that isn't talked about quite as much is the damage potential of the defensive/utility phantasms. I think the damage needs to be toned way down on Echo of memory, Disenchanter, and Defender. Give disenchanter the Break enchantments treatment. Make it useful as utility skill, but only does ~1k with demo amulet. These phantasms should be used defensively (or not at all pending on other changes). If they are used defensively the reward for doing should be that you avoided damage, ripped boons, etc...not doing 10k damage along side it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: Really ? You are welcomed https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/464401#Comment_464401 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: > Really ? You are welcomed https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/464401#Comment_464401 > Lol you linked me a post with a bunch of bolding that doesn't mention the damage of those skills (you do above it) on page 25 of a topic with 30+ pages...I think the "really" was a bit unnecessary lol. Anyway, good to see that others have brought up the damage of those skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Its just link to my comment ,other did as well many times i guess :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derm.4932 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > > @"Derm.4932" said: > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > @"Derm.4932" said: > > > > Nah, nerf the hell out of it. The last time we had a spec as broken as current chrono was...minstrel chrono. Nobody wants the class to be useless but it's current state requires significant nerfs, and it's far better to over-nerf and force Mesmer players to move builds than under-nerf such that Mesmer still remains in the same position until the next balance patch. If the latter happens PvP will see a big die off just as it did during the bunker chrono days. Even if Mesmer is moved out of meta due to nerfs(hugely unlikely) it's far better than the current scenario. Mesmer has been meta FOREVER while most other classes have to wait their turn. It's ridiculous how a class can persist in the meta for this long. While we're at it don't forget Mirage because it's almost as broken for different reasons. > > > > > > I will tell you why Mesmer is Meta Forever, because it Got diversity Builds its a success from Anet you can see in sPVP more than 5 Mesmer builds around 3 of them Are meta and that's Amazing it's like 3 more viable classes extra in the game .so don't expect Anet to destroy there masterpiece . > > > > So you don't think it's a problem that Mesmer has multiple Meta builds (and I say meta but let's be real here, current chrono AND mirage are far superior to other meta builds) while other classes are lucky if they have just one? Or are you just memeing? I honestly can't tell anymore given the kitten I've read from Mesmers defending their class. > > Mesmer having multiple META builds is a good thing. > > Instead of destroying that, why not make it the benchmark for all classes? > I would love the privilege to use any trait line for Elementalist and a selection of viable builds available at my fingertips. > The possibilities if they invested the same rework into Revenant too. Because it's far easier to tone down chrono and Mirage than boost everything else up, and because powercreep is a real problem. You think Mesmer having many meta specs is a good thing but their specs are literally pushing every other side node spec out. We just had an entire patch toning everything down and it was considered good except for the relative buff to mesmers. If everything was boosted to the level of current chrono this game would be a massive meme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal. > > > > > > > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well. > > > > > > > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > > > > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks. > > > > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control. > > > > > > > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people. > > > > > > > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal. > > > > > > Gazelles charge was a FGS type effect issue if I remember correctly where it would hit multiple times doing large amounts of damage. > > > > > > Not sure why you bring it up to be honest other than you play ranger and possibly a little salty over losing the one shot as my entire point was about multiple high damage sources being on too short a cool down. The issue with Chrono being that it can reduce the cool downs on its skills and double up on them while having a baseline double up on skill use mechanic. If you have issue with the way Gazelle was nerfed or whatever then make your own thread and ask for attention to be brought to it and a fix you think is better. > > > > Why is everyone on the internet so obsessed with getting people mad? It's a bit silly. > > > > The multiple hits all landed at the same time. In your own words, doing 75-100% of someone's health in a single attack is perfectly fine as long as you can't spam it. Gazelle's Charge was a single attack that did: **"16k damage every 20s. You knew how to avoid the attack, because you could look for its tells and dodge it."** > > > > Yet Anet nerfed it heavily and quickly despite it being not able to be spammed. If this skill alone received a 50% damage nerf, and mesmer has access to skills that do just as much damage, multiple times. They should realistically ALL receive 70% damage nerfs MINIMUM to bring them down to a respectable level. > > > > Disenchanter should only remove 2 boons. Defender shouldn't do damage at all. > > But I’m not complaining about Gazelles charge and this thread isn’t about Gazelles or ranger. If anything all you are doing is reinforcing what many mesmer players have been saying recently and that is that the real issues of these incredibly strong skills should be tackled rather than straight up damage nerfs. No, but the comparison is valid. You stated: > @"apharma.3741" said: > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. Yet I contested that BOTH are an issue. The Gazelle damage nerf was just an example I gave of a similar situation in which a high damaging skill received an extremely heavy reduction. However, this applies even more so to mesmer because it can do MORE damage, whilst simultaneously retaining a higher effectiveness in nearly every other aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks. > > > > > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control. > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people. > > > > > > > > > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month. > > > > > > > > > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal. > > > > > > > > Gazelles charge was a FGS type effect issue if I remember correctly where it would hit multiple times doing large amounts of damage. > > > > > > > > Not sure why you bring it up to be honest other than you play ranger and possibly a little salty over losing the one shot as my entire point was about multiple high damage sources being on too short a cool down. The issue with Chrono being that it can reduce the cool downs on its skills and double up on them while having a baseline double up on skill use mechanic. If you have issue with the way Gazelle was nerfed or whatever then make your own thread and ask for attention to be brought to it and a fix you think is better. > > > > > > Why is everyone on the internet so obsessed with getting people mad? It's a bit silly. > > > > > > The multiple hits all landed at the same time. In your own words, doing 75-100% of someone's health in a single attack is perfectly fine as long as you can't spam it. Gazelle's Charge was a single attack that did: **"16k damage every 20s. You knew how to avoid the attack, because you could look for its tells and dodge it."** > > > > > > Yet Anet nerfed it heavily and quickly despite it being not able to be spammed. If this skill alone received a 50% damage nerf, and mesmer has access to skills that do just as much damage, multiple times. They should realistically ALL receive 70% damage nerfs MINIMUM to bring them down to a respectable level. > > > > > > Disenchanter should only remove 2 boons. Defender shouldn't do damage at all. > > > > But I’m not complaining about Gazelles charge and this thread isn’t about Gazelles or ranger. If anything all you are doing is reinforcing what many mesmer players have been saying recently and that is that the real issues of these incredibly strong skills should be tackled rather than straight up damage nerfs. > > No, but the comparison is valid. > > You stated: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > Yet I contested that BOTH are an issue. The Gazelle damage nerf was just an example I gave of a similar situation in which a high damaging skill received an extremely heavy reduction. However, this applies even more so to mesmer because it can do MORE damage, whilst simultaneously retaining a higher effectiveness in nearly every other aspec > No singular mesmer skill is doing anything close to the damage of your gazelle example, it is a combination of multiple skills and traits causing this. A gazelle no matter what ranger build you use could have hit for 20k, whether it be core, druid or SB, **on a singular skill**. Core mesmer will not have any singular phantasm skill come close. Mirage will not have any singular phantasm skill come close. Therefore the problem is that these skills are being used more frequently than their cool downs balance them by so the targets should be what enables this. This is why I said what I said, the problem isn’t the damage, the problem is what enables the skills to be used more frequently. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks. > > > > > > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month. > > > > > > > > > > > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal. > > > > > > > > > > Gazelles charge was a FGS type effect issue if I remember correctly where it would hit multiple times doing large amounts of damage. > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why you bring it up to be honest other than you play ranger and possibly a little salty over losing the one shot as my entire point was about multiple high damage sources being on too short a cool down. The issue with Chrono being that it can reduce the cool downs on its skills and double up on them while having a baseline double up on skill use mechanic. If you have issue with the way Gazelle was nerfed or whatever then make your own thread and ask for attention to be brought to it and a fix you think is better. > > > > > > > > Why is everyone on the internet so obsessed with getting people mad? It's a bit silly. > > > > > > > > The multiple hits all landed at the same time. In your own words, doing 75-100% of someone's health in a single attack is perfectly fine as long as you can't spam it. Gazelle's Charge was a single attack that did: **"16k damage every 20s. You knew how to avoid the attack, because you could look for its tells and dodge it."** > > > > > > > > Yet Anet nerfed it heavily and quickly despite it being not able to be spammed. If this skill alone received a 50% damage nerf, and mesmer has access to skills that do just as much damage, multiple times. They should realistically ALL receive 70% damage nerfs MINIMUM to bring them down to a respectable level. > > > > > > > > Disenchanter should only remove 2 boons. Defender shouldn't do damage at all. > > > > > > But I’m not complaining about Gazelles charge and this thread isn’t about Gazelles or ranger. If anything all you are doing is reinforcing what many mesmer players have been saying recently and that is that the real issues of these incredibly strong skills should be tackled rather than straight up damage nerfs. > > > > No, but the comparison is valid. > > > > You stated: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > Yet I contested that BOTH are an issue. The Gazelle damage nerf was just an example I gave of a similar situation in which a high damaging skill received an extremely heavy reduction. However, this applies even more so to mesmer because it can do MORE damage, whilst simultaneously retaining a higher effectiveness in nearly every other aspec > > > > No singular mesmer skill is doing anything close to the damage of your gazelle example, it is a combination of multiple skills and traits causing this. > A gazelle no matter what ranger build you use could have hit for 20k, whether it be core, druid or SB, **on a singular skill**. No you're wrong. If you use the forum search tool you can find numerous threads on the topic. The 20k from Charge was upfront. > Core mesmer will not have any singular phantasm skill come close. I've seen as high as 17k from a SINGLE Defender. Disenchanter and Defender routinely hit for 10k+. The best part is, its almost impossible to see when/where they are attacking from because there is too much visual clutter. > Mirage will not have any singular phantasm skill come close. Mirage can absolutely hit just as hard. Though it has its own problems. You're mistakenly believing that the damage is tied to Chrono. The phantasms alone hit extremely hard with Chaos and Illusions regardless of what elite spec you are/aren't using. > Therefore the problem is that these skills are being used more frequently than their cool downs balance them by so the targets should be what enables this. > This is why I said what I said, the problem isn’t the damage, the problem is what enables the skills to be used more frequently. > > Two wrongs don’t make a right. Again you're wrong. One of the biggest problems and most frequent complaints is the damage. There's no reason why multiple AI on a class using PALADINS AMULET should hit for 10k while stripping all of your boons and ccing you. I mean honestly, you can take a look at the most recent patch. They increased the cooldowns of the phantasms but it doesn't matter because their damage is completely busted. By your logic, a skill that instantly kills someone is balanced if it has a long enough cooldown. That doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigmoid.1264 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > Threads like this do absolutely nothing to help mesmer get balanced, but they sure do seem to contribute to the growing kitten of people asking for the wrong nerfs to the class. Nerfs that don't fix any underlying issues at all. The simple answer is that Mesmer needs far more nerfs than anyone really thinks - especially the specific (not all) Mesmer mains who think that changing a few traits will somehow 'fix' the class. Their proposed nerfs generally do not fix the class and appear to be based on reducing Mesmer from Zeus God level to Heracles Demigod level - still incredibly OP. In the vast majority of cases these 'nerfs' include buffs as well and will not remove the class from its S+++ tier level - it will still be far stronger than its competition. Look at all the nerfs Scourge had since PoF launched, how many times people cried that due to nerfs it was dead and it still dominates hard in PvP and WvW (I realize that this is the PvP subforum but changes to mesmer are going to affect other gamemodes so I will briefly try to touch on them). Look at all the nerfs Holo had including the 25% damage reduction on photon at PoF launch. Still pretty strong. Spellbreaker is still a decent build. All of these took multiple waves of nerfs to bring them into line. Nobody wants this mesmer train to last the 6+ months it is taking Anet to fix scourge. Multiple classes and specializations still need buffs (Revenant and Elementalist) and don't have a meta build to their name. With this said, Anet should focus on balancing mesmer properly, not little by little nerfing it, cause it could take easily 6+ months to fix this class and the playerbase is going to revolt. Try to balance mesmer not gut it but a little overnerfing is better than undernerfing. The issue is not limited to Chronophantasma or Signet of the Ether. Mesmer is massively overperforming on all levels across the board (talking PvP, WvW, and PvE) and needs more than a couple trait and weapon changes to bring it in line. Mesmer pretty much requires a massive trait nerf to be anything close to reasonable - look at the absurdity that is chaos. There simply are not any significant weak points to current mesmer builds. High damage while running defensive traitlines. Able to dodge while channeling skills or stomping at basically 0 cost (other classes can do this but they have to take a tradeoff). Excessively tanky (lots of access to vigor and protection, distortion). Honestly the issue beyond CS, CP, and Ether phantasm spam is that traits simply don't have necessary cooldowns, are dependent on conditions that are far too spamable/general, or are uncapped such that while the average benefit from that trait is in line the maximal benefit is completely nuts. Here are a couple examples. Illusionary Defense: 5% damage reduction for 5 seconds when summoning an illusion. 5 stack max. Adept. First this condition is very easy to fufill. Mesmer is always summoning illusions and this trait basically operates as a passive. This is not a conditional trait in that it only works under a particular circumstance (i.e. Light Density Amplifier: reduced damage **while in photon forge**) - this trait always operates at effective 100% uptime (Geomancer's Defence: 10% damage reduction from foes within 360 range. Not always useful.) and does not require you to significantly modify your playstyle (Putrid Defense: take 10% less damage from poisoned foes. This requires you to poison your enemy.) to gain a benefit. This is not a trait that gives any negative effects (Light Density Amplifier: gain extra heat). This is a trait where the maximum benefit is significantly higher than almost every other damage reduction trait in the game (Resilience of Shadows is also 25% but in stealth). This trait is consistent, strong, has no negatives, and is easy to use. Yes it does require you to be summoning illusions but it will generally be active to some level almost constantly and more importantly you will have high stacks while executing a burst (can be up for a long time when using CS + Ether). This is one of the best DR traits in the game and it is **Adept**. Chaotic Persistance: 3% boon and condition duration for every boon you have on you. The issue here is how massive this can scale. With a significant number of boons this outscales any other concentration trait in the game but it also provides condition duration as well. With boonspam the way it it this trait is very overpowered. It also lies in a boon heavy traitline. Evasive Mirror: Gain mirror (2s) after a successful evasion. 1.5 s cd. On mirage this is really quite strong and can shut down ranged builds. Not always taken but with the vigor mirage gets and the longer doges (more likely to evade an attack) this is an awful lot of projectile hate off of a single trait. Mirage Mantle: Gain Protection (2s) when mirage cloak ends. Why does mirage with its innate class design need so much protection? This is a lot of protection as well coming off a single trait. Phantasmal Haste: Phantasms spawn with quickness (3s), gain quickness when you spawn a phantasm. The is no ICD on this trait making it very abusable in conjunction with CS and Ether. Huge issue dealing with huge numbers of phantasms with this trait. Lots of quickness uptime. Bountiful Disillusionment: Gain boons on shatter. Gain 5s stability on shatter. No ICD This is a lot of easy stability for a slippery class and one who can dodge while attacking. Also needs to be nerfed because of PvE due to the excessive boonshare (Chrono already has enough). The fact that stability is gained on any shatter and the mesmer doesn't need to have any clones out makes it a very strong get-out-of-jail free card. The strength and overpoweredness of mesmer is not just from CS + CP + Ether, its not just that the traits have a lot of synergy, its that the traits themselves are very strong especially when complementing class mechanics. Mesmer needs a significant across the board haircut. This is not just limited to PvP either. End game PvE revolves around the Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtrverz.4069 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 The current chrono build is one of the most braindead builds in this game. I’m pretty sure you can turn your monitor off and mash your keyboard and randomly kill people in a 1vx because of your ai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"Enigmoid.1264" said: > Evasive Mirror: Gain mirror (2s) after a successful evasion. 1.5 s cd. > On mirage this is really quite strong and can shut down ranged builds. Not always taken but with the vigor mirage gets and the longer doges (more likely to evade an attack) this is an awful lot of projectile hate off of a single trait. While I don't deny the high reflect uptime from Evasive Mirror with mirage evade access almost hardcounters projectile based builds such as p/p thief or bow ranger, I just thought it worth pointing out that high reflect uptime does prevent mesmer from using much stealth due to reveal proccing from reflects. A mirage has to be extremely careful to not be hit in stealth with a projectile while having reflect procced - I only use untraited torch in my wvw build for example and even then sometimes the stealth is broken due to reflect, essentially wasting whatever stealth skill was used. But like I said I don't deny it is very powerful vs projectile users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks. > > > > > > > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gazelles charge was a FGS type effect issue if I remember correctly where it would hit multiple times doing large amounts of damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why you bring it up to be honest other than you play ranger and possibly a little salty over losing the one shot as my entire point was about multiple high damage sources being on too short a cool down. The issue with Chrono being that it can reduce the cool downs on its skills and double up on them while having a baseline double up on skill use mechanic. If you have issue with the way Gazelle was nerfed or whatever then make your own thread and ask for attention to be brought to it and a fix you think is better. > > > > > > > > > > Why is everyone on the internet so obsessed with getting people mad? It's a bit silly. > > > > > > > > > > The multiple hits all landed at the same time. In your own words, doing 75-100% of someone's health in a single attack is perfectly fine as long as you can't spam it. Gazelle's Charge was a single attack that did: **"16k damage every 20s. You knew how to avoid the attack, because you could look for its tells and dodge it."** > > > > > > > > > > Yet Anet nerfed it heavily and quickly despite it being not able to be spammed. If this skill alone received a 50% damage nerf, and mesmer has access to skills that do just as much damage, multiple times. They should realistically ALL receive 70% damage nerfs MINIMUM to bring them down to a respectable level. > > > > > > > > > > Disenchanter should only remove 2 boons. Defender shouldn't do damage at all. > > > > > > > > But I’m not complaining about Gazelles charge and this thread isn’t about Gazelles or ranger. If anything all you are doing is reinforcing what many mesmer players have been saying recently and that is that the real issues of these incredibly strong skills should be tackled rather than straight up damage nerfs. > > > > > > No, but the comparison is valid. > > > > > > You stated: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > > > Yet I contested that BOTH are an issue. The Gazelle damage nerf was just an example I gave of a similar situation in which a high damaging skill received an extremely heavy reduction. However, this applies even more so to mesmer because it can do MORE damage, whilst simultaneously retaining a higher effectiveness in nearly every other aspec > > > > > > > No singular mesmer skill is doing anything close to the damage of your gazelle example, it is a combination of multiple skills and traits causing this. > > A gazelle no matter what ranger build you use could have hit for 20k, whether it be core, druid or SB, **on a singular skill**. > > No you're wrong. If you use the forum search tool you can find numerous threads on the topic. The 20k from Charge was upfront. > > > Core mesmer will not have any singular phantasm skill come close. > > I've seen as high as 17k from a SINGLE Defender. Disenchanter and Defender routinely hit for 10k+. The best part is, its almost impossible to see when/where they are attacking from because there is too much visual clutter. > > > Mirage will not have any singular phantasm skill come close. > > Mirage can absolutely hit just as hard. Though it has its own problems. > > You're mistakenly believing that the damage is tied to Chrono. The phantasms alone hit extremely hard with Chaos and Illusions regardless of what elite spec you are/aren't using. > > > Therefore the problem is that these skills are being used more frequently than their cool downs balance them by so the targets should be what enables this. > > This is why I said what I said, the problem isn’t the damage, the problem is what enables the skills to be used more frequently. > > > > Two wrongs don’t make a right. > > Again you're wrong. One of the biggest problems and most frequent complaints is the damage. There's no reason why multiple AI on a class using PALADINS AMULET should hit for 10k while stripping all of your boons and ccing you. > > I mean honestly, you can take a look at the most recent patch. They increased the cooldowns of the phantasms but it doesn't matter because their damage is completely busted. By your logic, a skill that instantly kills someone is balanced if it has a long enough cooldown. That doesn't make sense. Those defender hits are if you keep attacking it, it has counterplay and won’t usually hit that hard. Disenchanter I’ve said plenty of time does maybe a bit too much damage but it isn’t so far out of whack it needs a huge nerf. The rest of your suggestions have been laughably made out of spite and it’s clear to anyone following. You’ve now strayed far away from my original point and now are starting to resort to logical fallacies. I have never said a one shot mechanic is fine. I have never said 20k was fine. If you look at my post I said 16k and that’s honestly the upper limit I would put to damage skills without having to go really glassy for essentially a one shot. I have also not said the Gazelle nerf was fine either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippage.1983 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 The Chrono spec itself isn't overpowered, its the synergy you get from the Phantasm rework. The problem is in Phantasms. There desperately needs to be a cap, having 10 Phantasms out from one player is completely ridiculous. I don't feel the need to go into why, as plenty other players in this thread already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkaile.5604 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Seriously? This guy is starting these threads again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"shippage.1983" said: > The Chrono spec itself isn't overpowered, its the synergy you get from the Phantasm rework. Pretty much this. I already made a fairly active thread on it. Mesmer was top tier before the rework, but it wasn't gamebreaking. It only started breaking the game after they changed phantasms. Chrono was hardly ever played and was fairly balanced even. The history of the meta suggests that the biggest culprit is thus the rework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal. > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well. > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is. > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks. > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control. > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people. > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month. > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal. Gazelle's charge was instant gibbing players for 45k damage on top of basically instantly cleaving their downstate. Like Chrono is ridiculous right now, [but let's not pretend that this]( "but let's not pretend that this") was okay either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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