Jinks.2057 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > False positive happens, life goes on. So volunteer to be banned then and let one of the wrongfully banned take your place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > So volunteer to be banned then and let one of the wrongfully banned take your place If I had been banned, I would not be using every dishonest way to make people think monitoring against cheating isn't okay. I would focus on the matter of false positives. People are smart enough to understand its a necessary evil... and have been accepting it on Steam for years. Also, as discussed earlier, I don't believe that so many people won the lotto :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > So volunteer to be banned then and let one of the wrongfully banned take your place > > If I had been banned, I would not be using every dishonest way to make people think monitoring against cheating isn't okay. I would focus on the matter of false positives. > People are smart enough to understand its a necessary evil... and have been accepting it on Steam for years. > > Also, as discussed earlier, I don't believe that so many people won the lotto :) Absolutely. But, as you surmise, they weren't false. Thus the misdirection on procedure rather than the actual problem. Thus, "Yes, I cheated, but you had no right to look at my computer" and "Yes, I cheated, but not with this game!" or "Yes, I cheated, but you didn't tell me you were looking into my actions." Yes, tragic, but needed given how much the community demanded action against obvious cheating in the game. It's a sad state of affairs that anyone needs to be told not to run any cheat program while playing an MMO, but well . . . everyone loves lotto, right? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > False positive happens, life goes on. VAC has banned for only have CheatEngine running, but I've seen reports that Valve had stated previously that it shouldn't. (I did not see the Valve statements myself) Perhaps that varies by game, and with some it's only banning if CE is actually attached to the game process. In at least some cases where it was only running in the background, players were able to have the ban lifted by contacting support. (I've seen the proof of ban overturns in a couple of cases) The same seems true for PunkBuster. Conflicting reports over whether it will ban for merely running CE, or actually attaching it to the game. And reports of players having bans lifted after appealing them. The main difference between those and Anet, is that Anet is refusing appeals. People aren't angry because false positives happen, they are angry because Anet has taken the stance that everyone accused is guilty until proven innocent, then refused any chance to establish innocence. They should have the evidence that can prove guilt or innocence, but they seem to have failed to check it before banning, and are now refusing to consider it afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > VAC has banned for only have CheatEngine running, but I've seen reports that Valve had stated previously that it shouldn't. (I did not see the Valve statements myself) Perhaps that varies by game, and with some it's only banning if CE is actually attached to the game process. In at least some cases where it was only running in the background, players were able to have the ban lifted by contacting support. (I've seen the proof of ban overturns in a couple of cases) > > The same seems true for PunkBuster. Conflicting reports over whether it will ban for merely running CE, or actually attaching it to the game. And reports of players having bans lifted after appealing them. > > The main difference between those and Anet, is that Anet is refusing appeals. People aren't angry because false positives happen, they are angry because Anet has taken the stance that everyone accused is guilty until proven innocent, then refused any chance to establish innocence. They should have the evidence that can prove guilt or innocence, but they seem to have failed to check it before banning, and are now refusing to consider it afterwards. If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support, but what other sites are doing is calling out for spyware and that's it, no digging into the issue. And that's a big case of fake news and a bad thing for whoever cares about the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > So volunteer to be banned then and let one of the wrongfully banned take your place > > If I had been banned, I would not be using every dishonest way to make people think monitoring against cheating isn't okay. I would focus on the matter of false positives. > People are smart enough to understand its a necessary evil... and have been accepting it on Steam for years. > > Also, as discussed earlier, I don't believe that so many people won the lotto :) So you are refusing to volunteer to be banned? Ok thank you for clarifying your position of "If it ain't happening to me it doesn't matter" Thank you and I think the rest of the posters here know exactly what to do with your opinion now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > VAC has banned for only have CheatEngine running, but I've seen reports that Valve had stated previously that it shouldn't. (I did not see the Valve statements myself) Perhaps that varies by game, and with some it's only banning if CE is actually attached to the game process. In at least some cases where it was only running in the background, players were able to have the ban lifted by contacting support. (I've seen the proof of ban overturns in a couple of cases) > > > > The same seems true for PunkBuster. Conflicting reports over whether it will ban for merely running CE, or actually attaching it to the game. And reports of players having bans lifted after appealing them. > > > > The main difference between those and Anet, is that Anet is refusing appeals. People aren't angry because false positives happen, they are angry because Anet has taken the stance that everyone accused is guilty until proven innocent, then refused any chance to establish innocence. They should have the evidence that can prove guilt or innocence, but they seem to have failed to check it before banning, and are now refusing to consider it afterwards. > > If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support, but what other sites are doing is calling out for spyware and that's it, no digging into the issue. > > And that's a big case of fake news and a bad thing for whoever cares about the game. The spyware thing was based in the earliest evidence, before the redditors reverse engineering the client found out more about the anti-cheat. At first it looked like more was being sent back to Anet about processes running on everyone's computers. Later findings showed evidence of filtering non-matching processes before reporting anything back to Anet. Those articles and blog posts never got updated to include that. Some reports did also bring up the issue of false positives/only having CheatEngine running in the background. The active discussions on reddit that I've been following have continued to be less focused on the privacy aspect the longer they go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > > > So volunteer to be banned then and let one of the wrongfully banned take your place > > > > If I had been banned, I would not be using every dishonest way to make people think monitoring against cheating isn't okay. I would focus on the matter of false positives. > > People are smart enough to understand its a necessary evil... and have been accepting it on Steam for years. > > > > Also, as discussed earlier, I don't believe that so many people won the lotto :) > > So you are refusing to volunteer to be banned? > > Ok thank you for clarifying your position of "If it ain't happening to me it doesn't matter" > > Thank you and I think the rest of the posters here know exactly what to do with your opinion now. Fallacious argument. Again. Do you even read what I said? "I would focus on the matter of false positives." "If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support" And no, I won't "volunteer " for a ban just because I happen to disagree with all this name calling going on. And you're not proving a single point by asking people to do that "or else". But again you haven't been for a long while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > This is proven because we know for a FACT that people were banned wrongfully. > > > > In this case? No, we actually don't. I have seen too many of "wrongfully banned" people that were protesting their innocence even when presented with clear proofs that they were plain lying to just believe anyone's claims that Anet made a mistake. Maybe they did, or maybe it's Maybelline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet themselves said that they had banned players for only having a process running at the same time as the game, not because cheating actually occurred. > > To be more specific, they said they banned people that had a high corellation of running a certain "cheat" process alongside GW2 across a longer time. That's a much lower probability of accidentally occuring than just having gw2 and a process running concurrently once or twice for a short while. > > > > So yeah, it is possible that someone might have accidentally been caught in the net. Probably not as likely as you might think, but i admit, it _could_ happen (even though i'd say that someone would have to be extremely unlucky for it to happen accidentally). That's not what you said however. You said you _know for a fact_ someone innocent has been banned. Not "might have been" but "had". That's a much more specific statement. And one we _don't_ actually know if it's true. > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. 90 minutes of cheating isnt enough for a ban? how long should they be allowed to cheat then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"battledrone.8315" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > This is proven because we know for a FACT that people were banned wrongfully. > > > > > In this case? No, we actually don't. I have seen too many of "wrongfully banned" people that were protesting their innocence even when presented with clear proofs that they were plain lying to just believe anyone's claims that Anet made a mistake. Maybe they did, or maybe it's Maybelline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet themselves said that they had banned players for only having a process running at the same time as the game, not because cheating actually occurred. > > > To be more specific, they said they banned people that had a high corellation of running a certain "cheat" process alongside GW2 across a longer time. That's a much lower probability of accidentally occuring than just having gw2 and a process running concurrently once or twice for a short while. > > > > > > So yeah, it is possible that someone might have accidentally been caught in the net. Probably not as likely as you might think, but i admit, it _could_ happen (even though i'd say that someone would have to be extremely unlucky for it to happen accidentally). That's not what you said however. You said you _know for a fact_ someone innocent has been banned. Not "might have been" but "had". That's a much more specific statement. And one we _don't_ actually know if it's true. > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > 90 minutes of cheating isnt enough for a ban? how long should they be allowed to cheat then? I think you're missing the point of what he is trying to say. With UNF, 90 minutes is a high probability of cheating since it is a cheat specifically for GW2 (though he finds it interesting that most of those claiming to be wrongly banned supposedly used UNF, whereas you'd expect some of the other GW2 specific cheats to be listed as well). With CheatEngine, 90 minutes could be a long time, but it could also be no time at all if they were using it with a single player game or for other non-GW2 purposes and just forgot to close it before starting GW2 (in which case, no cheating actually occurred in GW2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > VAC has banned for only have CheatEngine running, but I've seen reports that Valve had stated previously that it shouldn't. (I did not see the Valve statements myself) Perhaps that varies by game, and with some it's only banning if CE is actually attached to the game process. In at least some cases where it was only running in the background, players were able to have the ban lifted by contacting support. (I've seen the proof of ban overturns in a couple of cases) > > > > The same seems true for PunkBuster. Conflicting reports over whether it will ban for merely running CE, or actually attaching it to the game. And reports of players having bans lifted after appealing them. > > > > The main difference between those and Anet, is that Anet is refusing appeals. People aren't angry because false positives happen, they are angry because Anet has taken the stance that everyone accused is guilty until proven innocent, then refused any chance to establish innocence. They should have the evidence that can prove guilt or innocence, but they seem to have failed to check it before banning, and are now refusing to consider it afterwards. > > If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support, but what other sites are doing is calling out for spyware and that's it, no digging into the issue. > > And that's a big case of fake news and a bad thing for whoever cares about the game. All the more reason why ANet needs to go public to clean up their image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > > > VAC has banned for only have CheatEngine running, but I've seen reports that Valve had stated previously that it shouldn't. (I did not see the Valve statements myself) Perhaps that varies by game, and with some it's only banning if CE is actually attached to the game process. In at least some cases where it was only running in the background, players were able to have the ban lifted by contacting support. (I've seen the proof of ban overturns in a couple of cases) > > > > > > The same seems true for PunkBuster. Conflicting reports over whether it will ban for merely running CE, or actually attaching it to the game. And reports of players having bans lifted after appealing them. > > > > > > The main difference between those and Anet, is that Anet is refusing appeals. People aren't angry because false positives happen, they are angry because Anet has taken the stance that everyone accused is guilty until proven innocent, then refused any chance to establish innocence. They should have the evidence that can prove guilt or innocence, but they seem to have failed to check it before banning, and are now refusing to consider it afterwards. > > > > If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support, but what other sites are doing is calling out for spyware and that's it, no digging into the issue. > > > > And that's a big case of fake news and a bad thing for whoever cares about the game. > > All the more reason why ANet needs to go public to clean up their image. It's hard to believe they never said something to at least address the more scathing reports about spyware concerns. Given what was found in the game client, it seems pretty likely that it was being no more invasive than VAC, PunkBuster, or Warden. Probably less so than some early versions of those other anti-cheat systems. Even if they speak only on that issue, it would still alleviate most negative PR outside of the game's community. 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Laila Lightness.8742 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > > > > > VAC has banned for only have CheatEngine running, but I've seen reports that Valve had stated previously that it shouldn't. (I did not see the Valve statements myself) Perhaps that varies by game, and with some it's only banning if CE is actually attached to the game process. In at least some cases where it was only running in the background, players were able to have the ban lifted by contacting support. (I've seen the proof of ban overturns in a couple of cases) > > > > > > > > The same seems true for PunkBuster. Conflicting reports over whether it will ban for merely running CE, or actually attaching it to the game. And reports of players having bans lifted after appealing them. > > > > > > > > The main difference between those and Anet, is that Anet is refusing appeals. People aren't angry because false positives happen, they are angry because Anet has taken the stance that everyone accused is guilty until proven innocent, then refused any chance to establish innocence. They should have the evidence that can prove guilt or innocence, but they seem to have failed to check it before banning, and are now refusing to consider it afterwards. > > > > > > If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support, but what other sites are doing is calling out for spyware and that's it, no digging into the issue. > > > > > > And that's a big case of fake news and a bad thing for whoever cares about the game. > > > > All the more reason why ANet needs to go public to clean up their image. > > It's hard to believe they never said something to at least address the more scathing reports about spyware concerns. Given what was found in the game client, it seems pretty likely that it was being no more invasive than VAC, PunkBuster, or Warden. Probably less so than some early versions of those other anti-cheat systems. Even if they speak only on that issue, it would still alleviate most negative PR outside of the game's community. For first why have game you arent playing open with gw 2 even Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said: > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > > > > > > > > One of the players banned was told by Anet, through a support ticket response, that they had been banned for running a cheat program along side the game for 90 minutes. That's not a very long time. It's short enough to easily be a single session, or even a portion of a single session of playing the game. It's certainly not a "significant number of hours during a multi-week period", as Anet said in their official statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In that particular case it wasn't CheatEngine that Anet had detected, but a GW2 specific cheat program called UNF. (I don't recall seeing anyone state a specific length of time regarding bans for CE, so I'm using this instance.) Being a cheat specifically for GW2 instead of a multi-use tool, we would generally assume that the likely hood of actual cheating is quite high. > > > > > > > > That's likely why such a short time was enough. It's (from what i understand from fast checking - i didn't hear about this program before) a gw2-specific speed hack used mostly for cheating by pvp players. I guess if someone was running that program and engaging in some pvp playing, there was no point to check anything more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, in this case as well as at least a few others I've heard of, the accused players say they were falsely accused of using UNF. Some having mentioned they had not even heard of the cheat. One said that his mother, who I believe he described as not being able to install the game without assistance, was accused of using UNF. In fact, every player I've seen claiming to be falsely banned for something other than CE, was accused of using UNF. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it's circumstantial, but it's interesting that all of these players claiming to be wrongly banned for a GW2-specific cheat, were all accused of using the same one. > > > > > > > > Yep. I guess the most likely explanation is that they _weren't_ wrongly accused, and they _really_ used that gw2-specific cheat. From what i understand it's quite popular in pvp scene, so it's not surprising there were a lot of people using it that got caught. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would expect to see cases of players declaring innocence over accusations of using the other cheats Anet was after. To me, that raises a question over the possibility that something else entirely was being incorrectly detected as UNF. > > > > > > > > To me that raises a possibility that those people are simply not being quite truthful in their explanations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We do know that the method Anet used to detect cheats, matching MD5 hashes, is capable of creating false positives. I find it disturbing that Anet thought it was reasonable to base their banning decisions solely on such flawed methodology. > > > > > > > > It's _theoretically_ capable of creating false positives. The chance of that actually happening in practice is so abysmally low it can be safely ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we have no of knowing which (if any) of these people are being honest in their claims. No way of knowing which of them are actually innocent. What we do know, is that Anet clearly said it was their intent in to ban players for having programs open, rather than actually cheating. When you go in casting such a broad net with a low burden of proof, that includes a tool as common CheatEngine, it is almost inevitable that innocent players will be caught. > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people not using any cheat programs had nothing to worry about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People really don't understand the gravity of the breach of trust this is. Outside of this site basically everyone has been appalled by the actions of Anet. > > > > > > > > > > > > Outside of this site, pretty much all the news websites are fed outdated information. > > > > > > Also they keep reporting what each other says without digging into the matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, read what V.A.C. does. Think accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > False positive happens, life goes on. > > > > > > > > > > VAC has banned for only have CheatEngine running, but I've seen reports that Valve had stated previously that it shouldn't. (I did not see the Valve statements myself) Perhaps that varies by game, and with some it's only banning if CE is actually attached to the game process. In at least some cases where it was only running in the background, players were able to have the ban lifted by contacting support. (I've seen the proof of ban overturns in a couple of cases) > > > > > > > > > > The same seems true for PunkBuster. Conflicting reports over whether it will ban for merely running CE, or actually attaching it to the game. And reports of players having bans lifted after appealing them. > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between those and Anet, is that Anet is refusing appeals. People aren't angry because false positives happen, they are angry because Anet has taken the stance that everyone accused is guilty until proven innocent, then refused any chance to establish innocence. They should have the evidence that can prove guilt or innocence, but they seem to have failed to check it before banning, and are now refusing to consider it afterwards. > > > > > > > > If people were angry just because of Anet refusing appeal, I would understand, and support, but what other sites are doing is calling out for spyware and that's it, no digging into the issue. > > > > > > > > And that's a big case of fake news and a bad thing for whoever cares about the game. > > > > > > All the more reason why ANet needs to go public to clean up their image. > > > > It's hard to believe they never said something to at least address the more scathing reports about spyware concerns. Given what was found in the game client, it seems pretty likely that it was being no more invasive than VAC, PunkBuster, or Warden. Probably less so than some early versions of those other anti-cheat systems. Even if they speak only on that issue, it would still alleviate most negative PR outside of the game's community. > > For first why have game you arent playing open with gw 2 even I've had GW2 open while playing other games for at least a couple reasons. Sometimes I was playing the other game while waiting for a boss/event in GW2, other instances I only had GW2 open because I was chatting in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morozzko.2136 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Chilli.2976" said: > MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS: **Game ban** (not to sure if this one is needed) > > ACCOUNT SHARING: **Game ban** Cmon i with wife have 2 acc so from 1 ip it is multiple, if my childs start play + 3accs Having 20 accs is ok, it is not again ToS, when 1 rule complete: 1 key - 1 action, if u have 1 account and use macros from keyboard for example f3+3 it is bannable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 There is no rule against having multiple accounts. You can own and play as many as you like, and can even log into more than one at once from the same IP address. What you can't do is _play_ more than one at the same time. If you push W and two characters on two separate accounts move forward then that's classed as botting and can get both accounts banned. Also my understanding is that although account sharing is against the TOS it won't get you banned by itself. If only because it's very hard to monitor when they allow you to log into multiple accounts from one IP address and log into your account from any IP address. But what it means is you can't use it as an excuse to defend against other TOS violations and if it causes any problems Anet won't help you. If you let your cousin try the game on your account and they get reported for verbal abuse you will be the one punished. If you let your friend log into your account to check out the effects on a legendary weapon and they mail themselves all your Mystic Coins Anet won't return them to you. If you and your sister share an account and she sells all 'your' materials to buy skins for her character you can't contact Support to get the materials back. As far as Anet are concerned 1 account = 1 person and anything that account does is your actions and your responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it So how about you volunteer for that ban? In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. Did they wrongfully ban a handful of people? Maybe. Will they fix it? Sadly, probably not. Also, truth be told, if people wanted to volunteer for a ban, they would use cheating programs. Another fun fact, turns out that Anet's "invading private property" was grossly exaggerated . By people who were caught cheating and got banned, no less! Who would expect that, eh? People side with the gaming company they support instead of the cheaters. I remember this thread going from "i wasnt using ANY 3rd party programs!!!" to "i was using them, had them running while playing gw2 for multiple hours, but i wasnt using then with gw2!" You can easily understand why people side with Anet. Cheaters will always lie. They got suspended, so what do they have to lose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned Fun Fact: People were not banned ONLY because of cheating. Anet told us what the violation was. You don't define what the violations are, Anet does. **If there is ONE take away from this thread, it's to understand without a doubt, what the violation was so people don't repeat the mistake.** You are degrading that message and the seriousness of the violation with your constantly incorrect assessment of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithis.3564 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 Fun fact: Fun fact This topic is going nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstealth.6701 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > Where? > It's not hard proof for any specific case, but Anet's statement on the ban wave shows their intent to ban people that were not necessarily cheating in GW2. Guilt was assumed based on the presence of a program that could, among its other more common/benign uses, be used to cheat in GW2. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#Comment_476255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 > @"mrstealth.6701" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned > > > > Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were _claiming_ to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it > > > > > > So how about you volunteer for that ban? > > > > > > In fact **ANYONE** who is advocating that they are ok with Arenanet invading private property and wrongfully banning people need to volunteer for a 6 month ban. > > > > > > Fun fact: it is Anet's game, they make the rules on cheating. Hell, they could even ban people whose username starts with a V. > > > > > > > > > > > > But just imagine if Anet or any other game dev actually did that. While they are almost surely within their rights (even if it's the most broad interpretation of them) to do it, I can't see them having many defenders, if any at all. Even if they could clearly see for themselves that the players had V at the beginning of their username, an absolute proof of "guilt", most people would not be defending the idea that they deserved to be banned. > > One of the big differences between that scenario and what is going on now, is the perception of the accusations made. When someone is labeled as a cheater, more people are willing to accept it as the truth without any evidence. And to make things worse, going by Anet's own statement, some of these banned players aren't even accused of actually cheating. > > It's just so easy to rail against someone that the authorities have accused/labeled, without considering anything else. One of those people who were labeled as cheaters, labeled a company as "privacy violator". Funny how people are willing to accept that, as well, as the truth, with insufficient evidence. And, to make things worse, going by that same person's later statement, it wasnt a privacy violation after all, yet people still keep saying "i lost my trust in Anet, they monitor everything i do". Remains me of a saying in my country, "Keep saying stuff constantly. Something is bound to stick" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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