Please Overhaul Raids.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group

> > > > >

> > > > > I think this is really sad. After all, this is a MMORPG, and as such it's only unique selling point is the social element. Many of my 8 years lasting WoW guild are still close friends. I think it's sad that most players in GW2 seem to play the game like a glorified single player instead of an actually social game :disappointed:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The problem with GW2 is that it is unsociable by design. Conceptual-wise, GW2 is still too much of a single-player-game with optional multiplayer; not as bad as GW1, but arguably still not a true full-fledged MMORPG.

> > >

> > > That's not a bug, that's a **feature.**

> >

> > No, for a MMORPG, that's just bad game-design.

>

> Again, for some games, that may be true, but it was one of the reasons that GW2 became successful, because players who *liked* that about the game flocked to it. So far, GW2 has been the **best** MMO ever for players who want to be playing *around* other players, but who have no interest in formally linking up with and micromanaging that relationship. You can just show up, help other players fight a boss, and then leave without any more interaction than that? **Best MMO EVER.**

 

You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best. There are certain design-choices which are mandatory for MMORPGs which developers shouldn't stray away from just to be some special snowflake. Let me elaborate:

 

It's ok that ANet wanted to get rid of grief-play in open-world-content. They went way too far though. In a good MMORPG, you have to encourage people to team up and play together to create a real multiplayer-feeling. You need to incentivize teaming up. ANet could have achieved both. They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads. They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently - that's not even contradicting shared participation between players who aren't in the same party/squad. Forming relationships is the most important factor in MMORPGs, but it's hard to form relationships if the game-design actively suppresses it. You rarely form lasting bonds with other people, especially due to the reward-structures in this game which basically kill off replayability. Why should my friends do fractals or raids with me if they already have a static and get nothing out of these activities since they already cleared their dailies/weeklies?

 

Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer. ANet hasn't achieved that though, which is one of the main-reasons raid-content in GW2 is as inaccessible as it is. ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy.

 

People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is.

 

> @"Digit.1823" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > >Pls understand this is not an opinion, its a fact. Pretty much, all raid encounters, can be pugged.

> > > >

> > > > In theory, just as many if not all can be beaten in all greens, or with very poor team comps, etc. But the *potential* state of them doesn't seem to mesh with the *practical* experiences of the average player. If you want to engage in semantics about "they can be pugged," I have no interest in that waste of time. The point here is that they cannot be pugged *conveniently enough* for many players. You don't have to *care,* but you can't actually dispute that, because you have no control over that reality. When people say "they want to be able to pug it," they mean THEMSELVES, not whether *some other* people are capable of it.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The reality is that raids are not meant to be convenient. Anet aimed raids at a certain target group and plenty of those are happy with raids as they are.

> > >

> > > If the current open world content feels boring and unrewarding you should argue for an overhaul there.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You really believe the lack of quality of life options for raids is a feature for a targeted audience?

>

> Except there isn't any lack of qol options for current raiders, because the current targeted audience is doing raids already without complaints. What even is this point? This is exactly the reason you never see any thread on this forum from people already doing the raids, because they are fine with it's current purpose/intention/design philosophy slap whatever word you want on it.

 

There is a lack of QoL-options for people who want to get into the content. In the current state of the game, the raiding community is artificially kept small, even though the content isn't all that hard as people claim. It's actually rather easy if you compare it to other MMORPGs, especially games which are focused on instanced PvE like Wildstar. Some improvements are reasonable anyways:

* A guild-browser would be a welcomed addition to the game, allowing people to easily search and/or find like-minded people who also want to get into specific content.

* More class-balance would also be welcomed. Both Druid and Chrono certainly need an overhaul/rework. Elementalist could also need that. Boons in general have to be nerfed to a reasonable level. They shouldn't double the dps. That way, certain specializations could be reduced to their tank/heal-roles so that there are actually alternatives to the current Chrono/Druid-supremacy. ANet should also equalize direct and conditional damage.

* ANet should also think of another skill-indicator as alternative to the rather stupid LI/KP-system which hard-locks people out of content. I already suggested a partnership between ANet, GW2Raidar and ArcDPS. A public database of dps-logs would be a far better system for people to show that they can carry their own weight than LI/KP. There are enough people that aren't that good even though they have several hundred LI. I really don't get why some people don't have any kind of situational awareness in this game.

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone.

 

Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further.

The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad.

The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals.

I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

> I don't. I'm not _good_ at it anymore, but i can still manage (and it's not the mechanic part that causes problems for me anyway). I just don't really like that kind of content and the mentality behind it. I grew out of it long ago.

 

Growing out of it still means the content is not designed for you. Which is perfectly OK.

[Digit.1823]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Digit.1823" said:

> > Except there isn't any lack of qol options for current raiders, because the current targeted audience is doing raids already without complaints. What even is this point? This is exactly the reason you never see any thread on this forum from people already doing the raids, because they are fine with it's current purpose/intention/design philosophy slap whatever word you want on it.

>

> There is a lack of QoL-options for people who want to get into the content. In the current state of the game, the raiding community is artificially kept small, even though the content isn't all that hard as people claim. It's actually rather easy if you compare it to other MMORPGs, especially games which are focused on instanced PvE like Wildstar. Some improvements are reasonable anyways:

> * A guild-browser would be a welcomed addition to the game, allowing people to easily search and/or find like-minded people who also want to get into specific content.

> * More class-balance would also be welcomed. Both Druid and Chrono certainly need an overhaul/rework. Elementalist could also need that. Boons in general have to be nerfed to a reasonable level. They shouldn't double the dps. That way, certain specializations could be reduced to their tank/heal-roles so that there are actually alternatives to the current Chrono/Druid-supremacy. ANet should also equalize direct and conditional damage.

> * ANet should also think of another skill-indicator as alternative to the rather stupid LI/KP-system which hard-locks people out of content. I already suggested a partnership between ANet, GW2Raidar and ArcDPS. A public database of dps-logs would be a far better system for people to show that they can carry their own weight than LI/KP. There are enough people that aren't that good even though they have several hundred LI. I really don't get why some people don't have any kind of situational awareness in this game.

 

Do you make a habit of nit picking forum posts or something? I literally said that **_new_** raiders (or people interested in raids) need more QoL updates to make it easier for them to join groups of like-minded people, finding groups of people on their skill-level and find guilds that give them the guidance they need.

 

My argument was that **_current raiders_** do not need QoL options because they are already raiding anyway, with statics or pug groups. Check this part out of my post you conveniently left away.

 

> @"Digit.1823" said:

 

> If the idea is to give _new_ people interested in the raids qol options so they can get into raids easier now that is surely an idea i can get behind, but the people already raiding i'm not quite sure what they would stand to benefit since they're already raiding without issues anyway. Be it via a static group or just doing the pugway. Better grouping options or having a guild list tab that shows what guild does what so you know which one to join if you want to learn raids are actually suggestions I've seen coming from people i can only applaud.

 

Either i mis-interpreted the tone behind your post, or otherwise please stop nit picking. This makes for silly arguments since you're leaving away entire parts of a post that literally counters, agrees with, or answers a reply you make.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Digit.1823" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Digit.1823" said:

> > > Except there isn't any lack of qol options for current raiders, because the current targeted audience is doing raids already without complaints. What even is this point? This is exactly the reason you never see any thread on this forum from people already doing the raids, because they are fine with it's current purpose/intention/design philosophy slap whatever word you want on it.

> >

> > There is a lack of QoL-options for people who want to get into the content. In the current state of the game, the raiding community is artificially kept small, even though the content isn't all that hard as people claim. It's actually rather easy if you compare it to other MMORPGs, especially games which are focused on instanced PvE like Wildstar. Some improvements are reasonable anyways:

> > * A guild-browser would be a welcomed addition to the game, allowing people to easily search and/or find like-minded people who also want to get into specific content.

> > * More class-balance would also be welcomed. Both Druid and Chrono certainly need an overhaul/rework. Elementalist could also need that. Boons in general have to be nerfed to a reasonable level. They shouldn't double the dps. That way, certain specializations could be reduced to their tank/heal-roles so that there are actually alternatives to the current Chrono/Druid-supremacy. ANet should also equalize direct and conditional damage.

> > * ANet should also think of another skill-indicator as alternative to the rather stupid LI/KP-system which hard-locks people out of content. I already suggested a partnership between ANet, GW2Raidar and ArcDPS. A public database of dps-logs would be a far better system for people to show that they can carry their own weight than LI/KP. There are enough people that aren't that good even though they have several hundred LI. I really don't get why some people don't have any kind of situational awareness in this game.

>

> Do you make a habit of nit picking forum posts or something? I literally said that **_new_** raiders (or people interested in raids) need more QoL updates to make it easier for them to join groups of like-minded people, finding groups of people on their skill-level and find guilds that give them the guidance they need.

>

> My argument was that **_current raiders_** do not need QoL options because they are already raiding anyway, with statics or pug groups. Check this part out of my post you conveniently left away.

 

People who aren't new to raids would also benefit from such implementations simply because there is a lot of variety inside the community. You just have to look at the gap in LI-requirements between guilds searching for new people. Where do you draw the line? When is a person sufficiently skilled? I do think that a guild-browser would be a good addition for people who already are into raiding.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

> > I don't. I'm not _good_ at it anymore, but i can still manage (and it's not the mechanic part that causes problems for me anyway). I just don't really like that kind of content and the mentality behind it. I grew out of it long ago.

>

> Growing out of it still means the content is not designed for you. Which is perfectly OK.

 

In all honesty, I haven’t done these raids to the same extent that most of you have. I don’t have huge LI numbers. I’m surprised that most of you aren’t bored of the same bosses. How do you keep going back for more without getting bored? Not being sarcastic, I’m actually very curious.

[nia.4725]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > > Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

> > > I don't. I'm not _good_ at it anymore, but i can still manage (and it's not the mechanic part that causes problems for me anyway). I just don't really like that kind of content and the mentality behind it. I grew out of it long ago.

> >

> > Growing out of it still means the content is not designed for you. Which is perfectly OK.

>

> In all honesty, I haven’t done these raids to the same extent that most of you have. I don’t have huge LI numbers. I’m surprised that most of you aren’t bored of the same bosses. How do you keep going back for more without getting bored? Not being sarcastic, I’m actually very curious.

 

Three things:

 

* Playing different roles. This is key. If I always play the same role I end up burned out. It happened to me with druid and then it happened with heal rev/handkiter. But if my raid leader allows me to rotate between roles, the boss is never the same nor I can get bored. I still play a lot of chrono and revenant heal, but I also play power rev, DH, druid, heal firebrand, bannerslave...

* Playing with my friends. If I raid with them the thing isn't boring. We laugh, we make jokes, we get along so well that our raiding schedule is a fun and learning time, not a job.

* Doing different strategies and unusual things. We are currently 8 members so we always need some people. When we don't feel like taking pugs in, we'll do lowman raids. We've done 9man, 8man and 7man raids. These are more challenging, we need to focus more > no boring. Sometimes we decide to go full meme and we stack necros. Another day we decided to do Deimos CM because my group struggles stacking, and we did it in less than an hour (having people totally new to Deimos CM). Our next unusual thing will be "wet Slothasor", where we basically will outheal the damage. Etc etc.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone.

>

> Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further.

> The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad.

> The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals.

> I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games).

 

If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and piss on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green..

 

 

 

 

[CptAurellian.9537]

WoW is a raid-centric game; GW2 isn't. Stop comparing apples with oranges.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone.

> >

> > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further.

> > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad.

> > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals.

> > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games).

>

> If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green..

>

>

How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't!

WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)).

 

In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

 

Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance.

 

People don't even try, that's the problem.

 

I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw.

[Turin.6921]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> In all honesty, I haven’t done these raids to the same extent that most of you have. I don’t have huge LI numbers. I’m surprised that most of you aren’t bored of the same bosses. How do you keep going back for more without getting bored? Not being sarcastic, I’m actually very curious.

 

Number 1 reason is playing with ppl that are fun to play with. A pleasant squad in voice can make any content fun. Raid bosses have enough rng elements to always have a chance for sth to happen that you would not expect. Mostly related to stupid wipes that are usually pretty funny.

Another good reason is the shifting of roles, builds and classes you play keeps things exiting. Balance patches that changes builds and rotations and cause discussion on theory-crafting are fun as well. It might be a bit annoying having to update your build but the process of getting better on a new rotation can be satisfying and keep things feeling fresh.

Also there are the CM achievements. Lastly there is a satisfaction in optimizing the performance of your squad. You can easily have a static that does a full clear in a week. But being able to clear all wings on 1-2 nights takes a bit more long term effort.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own.

 

I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just making note that this mechanic is not an *obvious* one for people who aren't already aware of it going in. It's not something that a truly innocent pug "should be able to figure out for themselves" in any reasonable amount of time. There are good things about that *and* bad things about it, when we're talking about accessibility.

 

>For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides.

 

And while I do think players should use what guides are available, part of the point of an easy mode is to take guess-work and prior knowledge as much out of he equation as possible, to be "pick up and play," *not* "trial and error."

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best.

 

That's only because you apparently have your own arbitrary distinctions as to what an MMORPG should and should not be, which conflict with what many other players think an MMORPG should and should not be. The things that you think make an MMO better or worse, *aren't* universal truths.

 

>They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads.

 

That would be HORRIBLE.

 

>They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently

 

That would be AWFUL.

 

Every single suggestion you've made to "improve" the game would only have made it *much much worse.*

 

>Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer.

 

I've played a ton of different MMOs, and I don't think GW2's story does a worse job of teaching gameplay than any other. The problem that *every* MMO struggles with is that they give a wide variety of options, and it's hard to train a player when you can't assume what class or role the player intends to play. You can't require character skills that the player's character might not have, for example.

 

>ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy.

 

Perhaps that is because the community of players GW2 has attracted are not the players you *want* it to have attracted, but those players *like* the game, so maybe you're the one that's wrong here.

 

>People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is.

 

As you've pointed out, it could have been *so* much worse.

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

>In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

 

And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play.

 

>In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

 

If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards).

 

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > > Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

> > > I don't. I'm not _good_ at it anymore, but i can still manage (and it's not the mechanic part that causes problems for me anyway). I just don't really like that kind of content and the mentality behind it. I grew out of it long ago.

> >

> > Growing out of it still means the content is not designed for you. Which is perfectly OK.

>

> In all honesty, I haven’t done these raids to the same extent that most of you have. I don’t have huge LI numbers. I’m surprised that most of you aren’t bored of the same bosses. How do you keep going back for more without getting bored? Not being sarcastic, I’m actually very curious.

 

Its a social thing every run is diffrent if you do it with random people.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone.

> > >

> > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further.

> > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad.

> > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals.

> > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games).

> >

> > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green..

> >

> >

> How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't!

> WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)).

>

> In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

>

> Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance.

>

> People don't even try, that's the problem.

>

> I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw.

 

Here we go again, raiders are right, the other 90% of the world are wrong and dont understand etc etc. Do you realise the average age of players today means most of us are very well versed with raids? As for lawns, that 90% wants something else - work it out.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone.

> > >

> > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further.

> > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad.

> > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals.

> > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games).

> >

> > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green..

> >

> >

> How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't!

> WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)).

>

> In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

>

> Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance.

>

> People don't even try, that's the problem.

>

> I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw.

 

Yes we clearly have never done raids. I guarantee Ive done more raids in my life then you and then some. Most of the posts on here advocating for some type of change, are well articulated and give poignant examples of the types of changes they would like to see and why, clearly people who are well versed in raids and raid mechanics. Saying that they need to simply play raids and stop complaining is disingenuous.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own.

>

> I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just making note that this mechanic is not an *obvious* one for people who aren't already aware of it going in. It's not something that a truly innocent pug "should be able to figure out for themselves" in any reasonable amount of time. There are good things about that *and* bad things about it, when we're talking about accessibility.

>

> >For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides.

>

> And while I do think players should use what guides are available, part of the point of an easy mode is to take guess-work and prior knowledge as much out of he equation as possible, to be "pick up and play," *not* "trial and error."

>

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best.

>

> That's only because you apparently have your own arbitrary distinctions as to what an MMORPG should and should not be, which conflict with what many other players think an MMORPG should and should not be. The things that you think make an MMO better or worse, *aren't* universal truths.

>

> >They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads.

>

> That would be HORRIBLE.

>

> >They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently

>

> That would be AWFUL.

>

> Every single suggestion you've made to "improve" the game would only have made it *much much worse.*

>

> >Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer.

>

> I've played a ton of different MMOs, and I don't think GW2's story does a worse job of teaching gameplay than any other. The problem that *every* MMO struggles with is that they give a wide variety of options, and it's hard to train a player when you can't assume what class or role the player intends to play. You can't require character skills that the player's character might not have, for example.

>

> >ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy.

>

> Perhaps that is because the community of players GW2 has attracted are not the players you *want* it to have attracted, but those players *like* the game, so maybe you're the one that's wrong here.

>

> >People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is.

>

> As you've pointed out, it could have been *so* much worse.

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

>

> And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play.

>

> >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

>

> If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards).

>

>

No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I don't see a problem with difficulty scaling in raids, like has been said... How does that in any way affect the people who already play them? It's just pointless elitism to think otherwise.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own.

> >

> > I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just making note that this mechanic is not an *obvious* one for people who aren't already aware of it going in. It's not something that a truly innocent pug "should be able to figure out for themselves" in any reasonable amount of time. There are good things about that *and* bad things about it, when we're talking about accessibility.

> >

> > >For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides.

> >

> > And while I do think players should use what guides are available, part of the point of an easy mode is to take guess-work and prior knowledge as much out of he equation as possible, to be "pick up and play," *not* "trial and error."

> >

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best.

> >

> > That's only because you apparently have your own arbitrary distinctions as to what an MMORPG should and should not be, which conflict with what many other players think an MMORPG should and should not be. The things that you think make an MMO better or worse, *aren't* universal truths.

> >

> > >They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads.

> >

> > That would be HORRIBLE.

> >

> > >They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently

> >

> > That would be AWFUL.

> >

> > Every single suggestion you've made to "improve" the game would only have made it *much much worse.*

> >

> > >Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer.

> >

> > I've played a ton of different MMOs, and I don't think GW2's story does a worse job of teaching gameplay than any other. The problem that *every* MMO struggles with is that they give a wide variety of options, and it's hard to train a player when you can't assume what class or role the player intends to play. You can't require character skills that the player's character might not have, for example.

> >

> > >ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy.

> >

> > Perhaps that is because the community of players GW2 has attracted are not the players you *want* it to have attracted, but those players *like* the game, so maybe you're the one that's wrong here.

> >

> > >People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is.

> >

> > As you've pointed out, it could have been *so* much worse.

> >

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> >

> > And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play.

> >

> > >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

> >

> > If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards).

> >

> >

> No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance9

 

90+% dont raid at all, your suggesting therefore that existing raiders will switch to easy lol because it is path of least resistance

[Linken.6345]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own.

> > >

> > > I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just making note that this mechanic is not an *obvious* one for people who aren't already aware of it going in. It's not something that a truly innocent pug "should be able to figure out for themselves" in any reasonable amount of time. There are good things about that *and* bad things about it, when we're talking about accessibility.

> > >

> > > >For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides.

> > >

> > > And while I do think players should use what guides are available, part of the point of an easy mode is to take guess-work and prior knowledge as much out of he equation as possible, to be "pick up and play," *not* "trial and error."

> > >

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best.

> > >

> > > That's only because you apparently have your own arbitrary distinctions as to what an MMORPG should and should not be, which conflict with what many other players think an MMORPG should and should not be. The things that you think make an MMO better or worse, *aren't* universal truths.

> > >

> > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads.

> > >

> > > That would be HORRIBLE.

> > >

> > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently

> > >

> > > That would be AWFUL.

> > >

> > > Every single suggestion you've made to "improve" the game would only have made it *much much worse.*

> > >

> > > >Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer.

> > >

> > > I've played a ton of different MMOs, and I don't think GW2's story does a worse job of teaching gameplay than any other. The problem that *every* MMO struggles with is that they give a wide variety of options, and it's hard to train a player when you can't assume what class or role the player intends to play. You can't require character skills that the player's character might not have, for example.

> > >

> > > >ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy.

> > >

> > > Perhaps that is because the community of players GW2 has attracted are not the players you *want* it to have attracted, but those players *like* the game, so maybe you're the one that's wrong here.

> > >

> > > >People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is.

> > >

> > > As you've pointed out, it could have been *so* much worse.

> > >

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > > >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> > >

> > > And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play.

> > >

> > > >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

> > >

> > > If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards).

> > >

> > >

> > No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance9

>

> 90+% dont raid at all, your suggesting therefore that existing raiders will switch to easy lol because it is path of least resistance

 

ofcourse some will if they can watch netflix while getting the same rewards over a longer period of time.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

>

> And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play.

>

Then don't?! Neither Fractals nor Raids are hard to play, i've gotten people doing both after little more than one month playing the game. If people find it too difficult, then obviously, easy mode or not, maybe the problem isn't the content it's their expectations.

 

> >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

>

> If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards).

>

It will create a divide in where new players will keep to low tier content, or get ill habits from the easy content and then have a harder time transitioning to harder content. Fractals are a good example of people messing up at higher tiers because they grew accustomed to the more forgiving tiers. And even then, like you demonstrated, with easy tiers people still complain, so clearly, easy mode doesn't solve a problem. A better training tool might.

 

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone.

> > > >

> > > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further.

> > > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad.

> > > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> > > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals.

> > > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games).

> > >

> > > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green..

> > >

> > >

> > How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't!

> > WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)).

> >

> > In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

> >

> > Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance.

> >

> > People don't even try, that's the problem.

> >

> > I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw.

>

> Here we go again, raiders are right, the other 90% of the world are wrong and dont understand etc etc. Do you realise the average age of players today means most of us are very well versed with raids? As for lawns, that 90% wants something else - work it out.

 

For starters i can hardly be called a raider, i have done a few, but nothing consistent, just a few encounters with friends when i can, haven't done one in months actually, because the schedules for everyone changed.

 

Well, the saying "the grass is always greener on the other side" means something different than what you think. It means ignorance sometimes breeds wrong expectations, basically. For the 90% (lol, more like ~ 70%) that don't play raids, they have other content to play, 90% of those 70% wouldn't play raids even with easy mode, simply because that's not the content they care to play. As a term of comparison, only ~11% of players have reached rank 80 in PvP, which is kinda easy to farm (there's a guy over rank 1000).

Raids have one objective: being the most challenging PvE content available in GW2, and that's what it is, and should remain. For easy content you have dungeons. If you're jelly of other people having raid rewards, then put in the work. I mean your argument about lawns could be well returned to you without any loss (in fact it might arguably be more fitting to people wanting easy mode raids than otherwise - it isn't raiders trying to change or diminish a game mode for their profit).

When you cater niche game modes to the majority of the population, you end up ruining them, there's an awesome example of this in PvP with the Team queue poll, ever since that decision was made, sPvP has been steadily declining.

 

 

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > Would be nice if we had other options for raids, like auto join or different difficulty levels. It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group. In lieu of that I feel like they should just make raids much more casual, in order to lower player scrutiny so we can actually do them. I love hard content but organizing the group and jumping through the hoops is too much work and it's tedious. Please consider making raids more palatable for everyone.

> > > >

> > > > Different difficulties will have the opposite effect of what you want, and will obviously split the community further.

> > > > The LFG could be better, but isn't too bad.

> > > > The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > > > In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> > > > You can easily complete Escort with builds and gear that wouldn't carry you through T4 Fractals, for example, and escort is just the easy example. There's been people doing challenges of completing raids with all greens, or with a budget. As soon as you get the mechanics down (they are generally more mechanic intensive than most Fractals), your gear matters way less than in Fractals.

> > > > I've done Raids in full exotic armor (ascended trinkets and weapons), i've had people in my raid complete VG and Gorseval with rare/exotic mixes, etc. Raids aren't that hard, just takes some time to learn them (as in all games).

> > >

> > > If you don't get it, go play ESO or WOW as a couple examples, the raiding is fun and has different levels of raid to suit everyone's needs, and what more raiders get it in those games, They don't try and kitten on next doors lawn to make theirs look nice and green..

> > >

> > >

> > How about you trying to play GW2's raids? Because it definitely sounds like you haven't!

> > WoW's raiding is fun (ESO though, lol) because the whole game is built around it and the whole community raids. Not only there's more people raiding in WoW, there's 14 years worth of raids to play, which allows them to have had new modes. Also, for the most part a lot of the content only has (or had until recently) a single difficulty mode, and only some content had Heroic and Normal modes (which is the case with GW2 already, already have varying difficulty in Dungeons (Story and Explorable) and Fractals (Tiers and Challenge Mode)).

> >

> > In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

> >

> > Raids in GW2 are fun, and some of them are actually great, people just don't engage in them, and btw, there's a LOT of different difficulties in encounters, like i said, Escort is a great entry way, it's easier than some T4 Fractals and even some Dungeons (Arah for example), AND, again like i mentioned, Raids have less barriers to entry than Fractals T4, only barrier is your own performance.

> >

> > People don't even try, that's the problem.

> >

> > I don't even understand that last comment about lawns btw.

>

> Yes we clearly have never done raids. I guarantee Ive done more raids in my life then you and then some. Most of the posts on here advocating for some type of change, are well articulated and give poignant examples of the types of changes they would like to see and why, clearly people who are well versed in raids and raid mechanics. Saying that they need to simply play raids and stop complaining is disingenuous.

 

First never bet or make guarantees without knowing what or who you're betting against. Life advice here. You might raid more than me in GW2, not too hard, since i've played it very seldom, most of my guild mates and friends have quit the game a long time ago, and i prefer doing that kind of content with my friends.

 

I was actually addressing one person, to which i was replying. And while there's a lot of QoL stuff that could change in raids, for one the crap with VG blues is almost 2 years old and it still gets drowned in visual and auditory clutter., the LFG in this game isn't that robust either. A lot of people just want a easy farm, they want dumbed down and watered down content that they can farm. Which is not what Raids should be.

And while i believe a lot of experienced raiders have given feedback, you jumped right into difficulty modes. And while that kinda worked for Fractals (more people do fractals than raids - i'm betting mostly because its 5 man, so easier to group) Raids have a different structure and rewards, also have a much smaller community that really can't afford to get split.

 

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> I don't see a problem with difficulty scaling in raids, like has been said... How does that in any way affect the people who already play them? It's just pointless elitism to think otherwise.

 

It's watered down content. Raids are meant to be hard, that's their purpose. They were created specifically for those players that want hard content, so they shouldn't now be dumbed down to cater for others populations. You call it elitism, but one could say your argument is born out of entitlement as well.

Also it **does** affect people that already play them. For starters those that already play it, especially the "bow wave" of "firsts" have to dedicate a ton of time to complete the content and get their rewards, and now you want the same rewards for a fraction of the work?

I guarantee you that if they added easy mode but with like fractal-level rewards, no Li or Raid specific rewards, barely anyone would play it.

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own.

> > >

> > > I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just making note that this mechanic is not an *obvious* one for people who aren't already aware of it going in. It's not something that a truly innocent pug "should be able to figure out for themselves" in any reasonable amount of time. There are good things about that *and* bad things about it, when we're talking about accessibility.

> > >

> > > >For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides.

> > >

> > > And while I do think players should use what guides are available, part of the point of an easy mode is to take guess-work and prior knowledge as much out of he equation as possible, to be "pick up and play," *not* "trial and error."

> > >

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > You don't get it at all. GW2 is a good game, but a very mediocre MMORPG at best.

> > >

> > > That's only because you apparently have your own arbitrary distinctions as to what an MMORPG should and should not be, which conflict with what many other players think an MMORPG should and should not be. The things that you think make an MMO better or worse, *aren't* universal truths.

> > >

> > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that boon- and heal-sharing only works in parties and squads.

> > >

> > > That would be HORRIBLE.

> > >

> > > >They could have designed their combat in a way that by teaming up with others, you can spread out and farm/play more efficiently

> > >

> > > That would be AWFUL.

> > >

> > > Every single suggestion you've made to "improve" the game would only have made it *much much worse.*

> > >

> > > >Another mandatory design-element for MMORPGs is that people need to learn basic gameplay through basic content, which would be open world and story in GW2. The problem is that people don't learn that though. Basic content in GW2 is far too easy and doesn't feature any kind of difficulty-progression. That way, people don't learn to carry their own weight which should always be a mandatory goal of every MMORPG-developer.

> > >

> > > I've played a ton of different MMOs, and I don't think GW2's story does a worse job of teaching gameplay than any other. The problem that *every* MMO struggles with is that they give a wide variety of options, and it's hard to train a player when you can't assume what class or role the player intends to play. You can't require character skills that the player's character might not have, for example.

> > >

> > > >ANet rather became a slave to the auto-atk-mentality-community. They had to nerf natural gatekeepers like the Eater of Souls. People are crying about Serpent's Ire being to hard to complete. There is a reason why most LFG-squads have ridiculous LI and KP requirements, even though the content is fairly easy.

> > >

> > > Perhaps that is because the community of players GW2 has attracted are not the players you *want* it to have attracted, but those players *like* the game, so maybe you're the one that's wrong here.

> > >

> > > >People always tend to mistake "easy" with "casual-friendly". GW2 is easy, but by being too easy it's far from being casual-friendly. GW2 suffers from many contradicting design-choices. ANet wasted a lot of potential through inconsistent and incoherent game-design. Sure, the game is successful, but please don't mistake "successful" with "has a lot of players". The game could be so much more than it currently is.

> > >

> > > As you've pointed out, it could have been *so* much worse.

> > >

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > >The problem with raids, is posts like these scaring new players away from the content, by making it seem harder to approach than what it actually is.

> > > >In fact Raids in general and the broad sense, are way easier and less restrictive to approach than T4 Fractals.

> > >

> > > And the thing is, you say this unironically, seemingly not realizing that T4 Fractals are *also* harder than most players would care to play.

> > >

> > > >In GW2 people would rather spend time in the forums complaining or suggesting "easy mode" than actually playing the content. That makes the raiding community small, and dividing it by creating difficulty tiers is only going to make it worse.

> > >

> > > If the existing raid community actually *enjoys* the current raids, then adding easy modes will not "divide" that community. That community will keep doing what they're doing. All the easy mode would do is add a *new* community of players who currently do not raid, but would do so if the raids were "fun" by their own standards (which are different than your standards).

> > >

> > >

> > No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance9

>

> 90+% dont raid at all, your suggesting therefore that existing raiders will switch to easy lol because it is path of least resistance

 

Of course... If rewards are any where similar, easy mode would be just the perfect farm for experienced raiders. You only get the rewards once a week, so doing raids faster for similar rewards (especially if they would award Li) would obviously be preferable. Of course you'd risk losing those hard core guilds that create benchmarks, and guides, and all the juicy info everyone else uses.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance.

 

So you're saying that people currently raiding, would really prefer to *not* be raiding, and would stop raiding if given any alternative in the matter.

 

Sounds like a system worth supporting.

 

>ofcourse some will if they can watch netflix while getting the same rewards over a longer period of time.

 

Sounds like they would be happier then, why does it almost sound like you're framing this as a bad thing?

 

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Then don't?! Neither Fractals nor Raids are hard to play, i've gotten people doing both after little more than one month playing the game. If people find it too difficult, then obviously, easy mode or not, maybe the problem isn't the content it's their expectations.

 

Lol,l no, it just means that *your* standard for "easy" is not the same as *their* standard for "easy." If *you* don't see a need for any easier mode, that's fine, nobody needs to make one for you, but if they see a need for one, they aren't necessarily wrong just because you don't see what they see. Players know that the existing raids are not intended for them and will not meet their expectations for "fun content," but that's no reason to not request an *alternative* version that *does* meet that standard.

 

>It will create a divide in where new players will keep to low tier content, or get ill habits from the easy content and then have a harder time transitioning to harder content.

 

If players stick with the easy version then they likely never wanted to do the hard one in the first place. If players do easy mode, they may struggle to transition to hard, but it would be easier than transitioning from zero. They would at minimum know the basic patterns of the encounters, and if the easy mode is designed well, they would be aware of ALL the mechanics, even if they don't always pay attention to some of them.

 

A better training tool alone does nothing for the players who have no interest in ever progressing to the harder version. It only solves a problem that doesn't need solving.

 

>Of course... If rewards are any where similar, easy mode would be just the perfect farm for experienced raiders. You only get the rewards once a week, so doing raids faster for similar rewards (especially if they would award Li) would obviously be preferable. Of course you'd risk losing those hard core guilds that create benchmarks, and guides, and all the juicy info everyone else uses.

 

Rewards should be smaller amounts of the same things. Running multiple easy raids should equate to running a single hard raid, but it definitely shouldn't be 1:1. If you can run harder raids efficiently (as MANY people have claimed they are able to do in these threads) then those should 100% be the more efficient use of your time. If players *also* want to run the easy modes, then maybe that would be fine, or maybe there should be a mutual lockout so that if you run hard, no rewards for easy, and if you run easy, less rewards for hard, so it balances out to "no point to doing both." They could go with whichever they prefer to implement.

 

I also think it would be fair for easy mode to come out after hard. I mean, they're already two years behind on the early wings, and almost six months behind on the latest raid. I would have no problem if, let's say in my wildest dreams they launched *all* current raids in easy mode next week, and then they came out with raid wing 6 in one month from now, I would be totally fine if they took another 3-6 months before releasing the easy mode version of that one. The hardcore types would have plenty of time to tackle the raid in its pure form and build strategies for it before the "hoi polloi" got their grubby hands all over it.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > No becouse if there is a easier way to get the same thing people will do the path of least resistance.

>

> So you're saying that people currently raiding, would really prefer to *not* be raiding, and would stop raiding if given any alternative in the matter.

>

> Sounds like a system worth supporting.

>

> >ofcourse some will if they can watch netflix while getting the same rewards over a longer period of time.

>

> Sounds like they would be happier then, why does it almost sound like you're framing this as a bad thing?

>

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > Then don't?! Neither Fractals nor Raids are hard to play, i've gotten people doing both after little more than one month playing the game. If people find it too difficult, then obviously, easy mode or not, maybe the problem isn't the content it's their expectations.

>

> Lol,l no, it just means that *your* standard for "easy" is not the same as *their* standard for "easy." If *you* don't see a need for any easier mode, that's fine, nobody needs to make one for you, but if they see a need for one, they aren't necessarily wrong just because you don't see what they see. Players know that the existing raids are not intended for them and will not meet their expectations for "fun content," but that's no reason to not request an *alternative* version that *does* meet that standard.

>

> >It will create a divide in where new players will keep to low tier content, or get ill habits from the easy content and then have a harder time transitioning to harder content.

>

> If players stick with the easy version then they likely never wanted to do the hard one in the first place. If players do easy mode, they may struggle to transition to hard, but it would be easier than transitioning from zero. They would at minimum know the basic patterns of the encounters, and if the easy mode is designed well, they would be aware of ALL the mechanics, even if they don't always pay attention to some of them.

>

> A better training tool alone does nothing for the players who have no interest in ever progressing to the harder version. It only solves a problem that doesn't need solving.

>

> >Of course... If rewards are any where similar, easy mode would be just the perfect farm for experienced raiders. You only get the rewards once a week, so doing raids faster for similar rewards (especially if they would award Li) would obviously be preferable. Of course you'd risk losing those hard core guilds that create benchmarks, and guides, and all the juicy info everyone else uses.

>

> Rewards should be smaller amounts of the same things. Running multiple easy raids should equate to running a single hard raid, but it definitely shouldn't be 1:1. If you can run harder raids efficiently (as MANY people have claimed they are able to do in these threads) then those should 100% be the more efficient use of your time. If players *also* want to run the easy modes, then maybe that would be fine, or maybe there should be a mutual lockout so that if you run hard, no rewards for easy, and if you run easy, less rewards for hard, so it balances out to "no point to doing both." They could go with whichever they prefer to implement.

>

> I also think it would be fair for easy mode to come out after hard. I mean, they're already two years behind on the early wings, and almost six months behind on the latest raid. I would have no problem if, let's say in my wildest dreams they launched *all* current raids in easy mode next week, and then they came out with raid wing 6 in one month from now, I would be totally fine if they took another 3-6 months before releasing the easy mode version of that one. The hardcore types would have plenty of time to tackle the raid in its pure form and build strategies for it before the "hoi polloi" got their grubby hands all over it.

 

No Im saying that its human nature to take the easiest way to get stuff.

I mean I could go out hunt my own food and cook it over a fire or go to the store and cook it on my stove, guess witch one I do?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

>No Im saying that its human nature to take the easiest way to get stuff.

 

Then why would anyone want to raid?

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> >No Im saying that its human nature to take the easiest way to get stuff.

>

> Then why would anyone want to raid?

 

Because some people enjoy challenging content and they don't play for rewards but play for the fun of challenge? I read the entire thread and couldn't see a single point you said something reasonable.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Rain.7543" said:

> > > > Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

> > > I don't. I'm not _good_ at it anymore, but i can still manage (and it's not the mechanic part that causes problems for me anyway). I just don't really like that kind of content and the mentality behind it. I grew out of it long ago.

> >

> > Growing out of it still means the content is not designed for you. Which is perfectly OK.

>

> In all honesty, I haven’t done these raids to the same extent that most of you have. I don’t have huge LI numbers. I’m surprised that most of you aren’t bored of the same bosses. How do you keep going back for more without getting bored? Not being sarcastic, I’m actually very curious.

 

Speaking for myself, I can think of two things mainly.

 

First, there's the social aspect. I mostly play with the same group of players so getting on time for raiding is kind of a meeting with friends.

 

Second, there's the strive for... perfection? mastery? I just enjoy doing something on the top of my abilities. Raids give me the proper playground for that.