TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > Then Anet should of made raids, guild only, however they didn’t. > > > > > > > > Does not change the intent of design. > > > > It was not designed in such a way to be pugged. Just because it can be doesn't mean that's what they are designed around. > > > > > > > > Whether you like this or not does not change the intent and certainly wont have them changing future implementation. > > > > > > Things change, devs change. Who knows, some new devs could jump on board to raids and make alterations. Probably why Anet is sitting in the gray on this one. > > > > If them taking no action to change it is your definition of them sitting in the grey that's one way to think of it. > > Or you know they could still be upholding their design ideas and not changing it because it's not worth it to sweat a triviality of a even smaller percent of people completing pug raids to those that don't. > > > > As in PuG it at your own risk, but be assured your experience is going to be significantly worse than what they designed it for. > > Nah, Tex, it’s Anet using language like this that is keeping them in the gray > > >We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. > > If it was white, they would say that they will be adding an easy mode. Black would we will never add an easy mode. I don't know if you've never seen a game dev speak.... but it's literally a prequel meme. They never speak in absolutes. Only Sith do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substatic.6958 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 While I'm sure Difficulty teirs would help increase the popularity of raiding in GW2, they are not going to fix the main underlying problem. That problem is the extremely restrictive roster due to having the obscenely bad dps balance and somehow even worse utility. And no, other high end MMOs aren't anything near as bad as this. This is mainly what causes there to be so few groups and difficulty to get into into said groups compared to other highly played MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > Then Anet should of made raids, guild only, however they didn’t. > > > > > > > > > > Does not change the intent of design. > > > > > It was not designed in such a way to be pugged. Just because it can be doesn't mean that's what they are designed around. > > > > > > > > > > Whether you like this or not does not change the intent and certainly wont have them changing future implementation. > > > > > > > > Things change, devs change. Who knows, some new devs could jump on board to raids and make alterations. Probably why Anet is sitting in the gray on this one. > > > > > > If them taking no action to change it is your definition of them sitting in the grey that's one way to think of it. > > > Or you know they could still be upholding their design ideas and not changing it because it's not worth it to sweat a triviality of a even smaller percent of people completing pug raids to those that don't. > > > > > > As in PuG it at your own risk, but be assured your experience is going to be significantly worse than what they designed it for. > > > > Nah, Tex, it’s Anet using language like this that is keeping them in the gray > > > > >We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. > > > > If it was white, they would say that they will be adding an easy mode. Black would we will never add an easy mode. > > I don't know if you've never seen a game dev speak.... but it's literally a prequel meme. They never speak in absolutes. Only Sith do that. Yes, and why do you think they do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Yes, and why do you think they do that? See i know what you want me to say, but that's some low hanging fruit. So instead it's because clearly they aren't influenced by the dark side. That's Microsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Yes, and why do you think they do that? > > See i know what you want me to say, but that's some low hanging fruit. > > So instead it's because clearly they aren't influenced by the dark side. That's Microsoft. I rest my case, your honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Yes, and why do you think they do that? > > > > See i know what you want me to say, but that's some low hanging fruit. > > > > So instead it's because clearly they aren't influenced by the dark side. That's Microsoft. > > I rest my case, your honour. If you say so, but your case is quite literally empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > > > > >Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. > > > > >Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. > > > > But you understand that this argument is a bit like saying "you cannot have a carriage without a horse." Yes, a raid with a non-pug group has its own unique character, and some people will enjoy that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a role in the game for raid encounters that are designed to be reliably pugged. > > > > Progress. > > Actually, it does mean that there's no design space for pugging. > That's what designing encounters is about. Especially if you want them to be challenging. Sure, but they've done that. That's taken care of. Set that aside for now. Now that the "challenging encounter designed for dedicated teams" is done, how do you account for the hundreds of thousands of players who *don't* fit that particular mold? That's when you start designing the version for people who *want* to pick-up pug it. And it's way easier than the first version, because all you have to do is loosen some of the bolts! > @"Malediktus.9250" said: >That is not how it works. Fractals have an easy mode, yet we are lucky if we even get two new fractals per year. And how many Fractals would you get if *only* the mark mode existed? > @"TexZero.7910" said: >A pug can be a very organized machine of 10 competent people or it can be a clown fiesta. >There's really not much of a middle ground there. What does it matter which shows up, so long as both of them have fun? >Additionally pug raids in those other games you mention more often than not have something that this crowd of "easy mode" purist are against compromising for and that's lesser quality and quantity of loot. What those games easier modes also fail to do properly is appropriately teach a what normal or even hard mode is because what is fatal in those modes has to be changed for the "pug" raids to be non-fatal. Keep in mind that these games also typically have a "progression" aspect to them in which a given raid, even the "hard" version of it, will become trivially easy after a few months or years, such that if this was such a game, then by the time PoF came out the Wing 1 and 2 raid encounters *would* be as easy as the "easy mode" that's been discussed, rewards entirely intact. You could expect to roll into them using blue and green Elonan gear (which would make Ascended gear look like level 60 greens) and absolutely crush them 100% of the time. So if you want raids that match the industry standard, go nuts but remember its package deal. You don't get to selectively remove the elements you don't like so you can hoard all the rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Now that the "challenging encounter designed for dedicated teams" is done, how do you account for the hundreds of thousands of players who *don't* fit that particular mold? That's when you start designing the version for people who *want* to pick-up pug it. And it's way easier than the first version, because all you have to do is loosen some of the bolts! You don't they're not the target audience of said mode. It's challenging group content. Not Lone Wolf Hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > Yes, and why do you think they do that? > > > > > > See i know what you want me to say, but that's some low hanging fruit. > > > > > > So instead it's because clearly they aren't influenced by the dark side. That's Microsoft. > > > > I rest my case, your honour. > If you say so, but your case is quite literally empty. Empty as a fox, Tex, empty as a fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Now that the "challenging encounter designed for dedicated teams" is done, how do you account for the hundreds of thousands of players who *don't* fit that particular mold? That's when you start designing the version for people who *want* to pick-up pug it. And it's way easier than the first version, because all you have to do is loosen some of the bolts! > > You don't they're not the target audience of said mode. > It's challenging group content. Not Lone Wolf Hero. > Maybe we shouldn’t be confining things to target audiences and keeping things open and inviting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Now that the "challenging encounter designed for dedicated teams" is done, how do you account for the hundreds of thousands of players who *don't* fit that particular mold? That's when you start designing the version for people who *want* to pick-up pug it. And it's way easier than the first version, because all you have to do is loosen some of the bolts! > > You don't they're not the target audience of said mode. > It's challenging group content. Not Lone Wolf Hero. > No no, again, the people who *are* "the target audience of the existing raids" have been taken care of. Their needs have been met. We're no longer discussing them. We're talking about everyone else now. What do you do with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > We're talking about everyone else now. > > What do you do with them? Everyone else has existing content and living world. If they want challenge they go to the current raid, and if they aren't ready for that they work their way up by doing dungeons and fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > We're talking about everyone else now. > > > > What do you do with them? > > Everyone else has existing content and living world. Sure, and that too is settled, that too is taken care of. So we've scratched "people who like the raids the way they are" and "people who want to do living world and the such" off the todo list, and now we're left with "people who want to be able to casually pug the raid content" to take care of, **what is the plan for them?** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > We're talking about everyone else now. > > > > > > What do you do with them? > > > > Everyone else has existing content and living world. > > Sure, and that too is settled, that too is taken care of. So we've scratched "people who like the raids the way they are" and "people who want to do living world and the such" off the todo list, and now we're left with "people who want to be able to casually pug the raid content" to take care of, **what is the plan for them?** Gone over this already. There are no plans for them because raiding by design isn't casual. Next ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > We're talking about everyone else now. > > > > > > > > What do you do with them? > > > > > > Everyone else has existing content and living world. > > > > Sure, and that too is settled, that too is taken care of. So we've scratched "people who like the raids the way they are" and "people who want to do living world and the such" off the todo list, and now we're left with "people who want to be able to casually pug the raid content" to take care of, **what is the plan for them?** > > Gone over this already. > There are no plans for them because raiding by design isn't casual. > > Next ? That's a tautological argument though, it's like saying "we don't need to design pants for women because pants aren't for women." Well what if they *want* to wear pants? Shouldn't they have pants that fit? We've established that "raids how Tex likes them" aren't for the people who don't like how they currently are. Fine. They don't have to be. The existing raids seem to satisfy the people who are satisfied by the existing raids. But there are plenty of people who are not currently satisfied by the existing options, and steps *can* be made to *do better,* so why not *take those steps?* There is no law set in stone that says that raids *must* be ONLY what TexZero thinks they should be allowed to be. They *can* cover an infinite range of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > We're talking about everyone else now. > > > > > > > > What do you do with them? > > > > > > Everyone else has existing content and living world. > > > > Sure, and that too is settled, that too is taken care of. So we've scratched "people who like the raids the way they are" and "people who want to do living world and the such" off the todo list, and now we're left with "people who want to be able to casually pug the raid content" to take care of, **what is the plan for them?** > > Gone over this already. > There are no plans for them because raiding by design isn't casual. > > Next ? You know way back when, Anet said it wanted to challenge the norms of the MMO scene, perhaps their raid design can change and evolve, or they can keep raiding in the same mold as it was established back in 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does. > > > Then we're back to that TexZero's "raids aren't supposed to be pugged" argument. > > > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > It doesn't trigger me. I just find it hard to treat it seriously when it's used to ignore pugs during the discussion about a feature meant strictly for them. > > I mean, seriously, statics won't queue. Even if they'll have one or two spots to fill, they still won't queue. > > And if someone joins that static, and decides to quit after seeing one or two encounters... well, if that person would rather pug than go with an organized group, then it would speak volumes about quality of said group. Such a person definitely wouldn't quit due to the existence of queuing system. They'd quit because _the group was bad_. > > Therefore any worries about this system need to be considered only within the context of pug groups. > > More likely that person would get kicked for not being up to snuff mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > We're talking about everyone else now. > > > > > > > > > > What do you do with them? > > > > > > > > Everyone else has existing content and living world. > > > > > > Sure, and that too is settled, that too is taken care of. So we've scratched "people who like the raids the way they are" and "people who want to do living world and the such" off the todo list, and now we're left with "people who want to be able to casually pug the raid content" to take care of, **what is the plan for them?** > > > > Gone over this already. > > There are no plans for them because raiding by design isn't casual. > > > > Next ? > > You know way back when, Anet said it wanted to challenge the norms of the MMO scene, perhaps their raid design can change and evolve, or they can keep raiding in the same mold as it was established back in 1999. > It's already better than your standard fare raids, but you know i can't expect people with near 0 raid experience to accurately and fairly give it that assessment, especially when they want to game to cater to their specific version of raids which lets be real here wouldn't be a raid at all. As is they're already challenging the norm. 1 Raid difficulty insures everyone has the same experiences. That's part of why they're designed the way they are, It's almost as if Raids in GW2 are exactly like the hard content gw1 had. A universal level of difficulty and an optional harder mode (ex. Challenge Motes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Substatic.6958" said: > > @"derd.6413" said: > > gw2 raids already is among the easiest in the mmo market and the whole point of raids was difficult content that isn't for everybody. > > > > tldr: no > > They are the among the easiest yet among the most difficult to get into and most class restrictive. Poor game design. > > I can log into WoW right now and instantly find a group for the latest Mythic Raid, which is considerably more harder than anything in GW2. Several groups. On any class I play. GW2, lol...nope. > > I rather they fix classes so that a group will invite anything rather than waiting 5 hours in lfg for a chrono or druid or 5 elementalists. Do you have mythic prog, good parses or a guild in wow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > Why not? It used to cost $60 to play the base Tryia game, and now it costs zero. Things change. It. Can. Happen. Simple as that. > > > > Not to its full extend. To experience the full base game you still very much have to buy it. > Last time i checked you didn't have to pay $60 for that, and for that less than $60 you got more than full core. So yeah, things have changed. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does. > Then we're back to that TexZero's "raids aren't supposed to be pugged" argument. > A price decrease is not the same as complete change in the business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > > >Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. > > >Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. > > But you understand that this argument is a bit like saying "you cannot have a carriage without a horse." Yes, a raid with a non-pug group has its own unique character, and some people will enjoy that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a role in the game for raid encounters that are designed to be reliably pugged. > > Progress. Pretty much all the raid encounters can be reliably pugged nowadays, save maybe Dhuum. It's a question of experience, and people had months and months to figure out the strategies and practice them, especially for the older wings. That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you *progress* with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > > > > >Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. > > > > >Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. > > > > But you understand that this argument is a bit like saying "you cannot have a carriage without a horse." Yes, a raid with a non-pug group has its own unique character, and some people will enjoy that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a role in the game for raid encounters that are designed to be reliably pugged. > > > > Progress. > > Pretty much all the raid encounters can be reliably pugged nowadays, save maybe Dhuum. It's a question of experience, and people had months and months to figure out the strategies and practice them, especially for the older wings. That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you *progress* with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game. Iirc Roca pugged dhuum cm on stream. So it just comes down to the experience of each player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > Still not sure why this triggers you. They aren't. > > > > > > >Raiding in pretty much every game is designed as a group experience. You mileage will vary if you opt to pug and without strict requirements you're likely to find yourself with people who do not care. > > > > > > >Hence it's not designed as an experience to be pugged. It can be, but ultimately raids are built on forming groups that are willing to learn and grow together, be it guilds, friends or acquaintances. > > > > > > But you understand that this argument is a bit like saying "you cannot have a carriage without a horse." Yes, a raid with a non-pug group has its own unique character, and some people will enjoy that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that there isn't also a role in the game for raid encounters that are designed to be reliably pugged. > > > > > > Progress. > > > > Pretty much all the raid encounters can be reliably pugged nowadays, save maybe Dhuum. It's a question of experience, and people had months and months to figure out the strategies and practice them, especially for the older wings. That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you *progress* with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game. > > Iirc Roca pugged dhuum cm on stream. So it just comes down to the experience of each player Yeah, I'm not saying you can be done. But it does feel like the encounter has a higher fail rate when I pug it. Of course, as time goes by and more players get more experience on it, this will change as well. Just needs some more time before it could be considered reliable IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >Pretty much all the raid encounters can be reliably pugged nowadays, save maybe Dhuum. /sigh, that may be your experience, and that's fine, but understand that we aren't talking about you. We're talking about the people who would disagree with that statement, so put yourself into their shoes before determining what they do or do not need. >That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you progress with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game. Again, if that's what you want, you've already got the mode for that. Now we're talking about what to do for the people who would disagree with that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >Pretty much all the raid encounters can be reliably pugged nowadays, save maybe Dhuum. > > /sigh, that may be your experience, and that's fine, but understand that we aren't talking about you. We're talking about the people who would disagree with that statement, so put yourself into their shoes before determining what they do or do not need. > > >That's how it should be - content becoming easier as you progress with your skill and understanding, not content being trivial from the very start like the rest of the game. > > Again, if that's what you want, you've already got the mode for that. Now we're talking about what to do for the people who would disagree with that opinion. Pls understand this is not an opinion, its a fact. Pretty much, all raid encounters, can be pugged. Also every bit of content gets easier after time. This is also a *fact*. I can disagree with something that doesn't mean its not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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