Please Overhaul Raids.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group

> > >

> > > I think this is really sad. After all, this is a MMORPG, and as such it's only unique selling point is the social element. Many of my 8 years lasting WoW guild are still close friends. I think it's sad that most players in GW2 seem to play the game like a glorified single player instead of an actually social game :disappointed:

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The problem with GW2 is that it is unsociable by design. Conceptual-wise, GW2 is still too much of a single-player-game with optional multiplayer; not as bad as GW1, but arguably still not a true full-fledged MMORPG.

>

> That's not a bug, that's a **feature.**

 

No, for a MMORPG, that's just bad game-design.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> No, for a MMORPG, that's just bad game-design.

 

Agreed. For a fully instanced game like GW2 it was one thing, but if you design a proper open- and persistent-world MMORPG, and you put **this much** effort into making people comfortable with playing together (shared loot, downed state, cooperative credit, events instead of quests), then it's really just a design flaw that your game is of such undertuned difficulty and has bad enough social UI components that actually socializing is never encouraged and in fact, made difficult.

 

[geochan.9184]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> No, it's exactly as difficult as I think, the only difference is that you are fine with it being that difficult, and I would like it to be easier than that.

 

It could be easier than what you think if you try.

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"geochan.9184" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > No, it's exactly as difficult as I think, the only difference is that you are fine with it being that difficult, and I would like it to be easier than that.

>

> It could be easier than what you think if you try.

>

>

 

Yah, but since I have taken the advice of the pro-Raid groups, and just moved on to WvW, Raids are Zero Content to me now.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"geochan.9184" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > No, it's exactly as difficult as I think, the only difference is that you are fine with it being that difficult, and I would like it to be easier than that.

>

> It could be easier than what you think if you try.

Having tried it i can assure you that it isn't. Unless you unknowingly get carried, of course. I know a lot of players that thought raids were easy, and then found out that they simply were unaware of many encounter mechanics, because someone else was always doing those for them. Some of those players were raiding for quite a time, actually, and thought they already knew all there was to know about bosses they were killing.

 

Maybe you're someone like that. Or maybe you're someone that finds some things to be so easy you really cannot imagine someone else might have any difficulty with them. Regardless of the reason, be assured that when some of us say raids aren't that easy for many players, we actually do know what we say.

[Rain.7543]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"geochan.9184" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > No, it's exactly as difficult as I think, the only difference is that you are fine with it being that difficult, and I would like it to be easier than that.

> >

> > It could be easier than what you think if you try.

> Having tried it i can assure you that it isn't. Unless you unknowingly get carried, of course. I know a lot of players that thought raids were easy, and then found out that they simply were unaware of many encounter mechanics, because someone else was always doing those for them. Some of those players were raiding for quite a time, actually, and thought they already knew all there was to know about bosses they were killing.

>

> Maybe you're someone like that. Or maybe you're someone that finds some things to be so easy you really cannot imagine someone else might have any difficulty with them. Regardless of the reason, be assured that when some of us say raids aren't that easy for many players, we actually do know what we say.

 

Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it. There is many things in this game that I haven't completed, because I dont find them fun or i am just bad at them -- PvP and WvW for instance being some of those. Yet I don't come all the time into the forums demanding Anet to change them, so they fit my personal taste better, or to make them more easier so I can get the rewards that others have put a lot of time and effort to get. I just accept it that those things aren't for me and moved on.

 

Also usually the players that say that raids are easy for them are the players that can do all mechanics on every class. Yes there is people that learn on a more rapid speeds then others -- this is true. But I have to wonder how many of the people that request easier mode raids have actually put the time and effort needed in learning them. Because you are not going to learn them if you go a few times with a random group, fail, get annoyed and come into the forum creating yet another topic on how raids should be overhauld. It takes quite a bit of time and real effort to learn them. I failed countless time, before I learned, spend a lot of time practicing in different runs, even after I have gotten my weekly kills, spend hours and hours into the golem training area learning my class, rotations etc and spend a lot of time in getting gear of every possible situation. If you aren't willing to put this effort into it, then sorry but you aren't entitled to do them and get any rewards out of them.

 

tdl;r: Raids are just fine, as they are. Some of the encounters i find rediciously easy and those should be pump even more in terms of difficulty, not made more casual. Raids were always meant to be the top-tier in terms of difficulty content and they are already much more easier then what raids difficulty in other games. Learn them and do them, or realise that isn't the content for you and move on already.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

I don't. I'm not _good_ at it anymore, but i can still manage (and it's not the mechanic part that causes problems for me anyway). I just don't really like that kind of content and the mentality behind it. I grew out of it long ago.

 

Not that what you said had anything to do with the original argument i was responding to.

 

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> But I have to wonder how many of the people that request easier mode raids have actually put the time and effort needed in learning them. Because you are not going to learn them if you go a few times with a random group, fail, get annoyed and come into the forum creating yet another topic on how raids should be overhauld. It takes quite a bit of time and real effort to learn them.

I have already mentioned many times over that i do in fact have my armor set obtained already (and the "legitimate" way, as raiders would put it, not by buying it). If anything, playing raids have only made my opinion on them even stronger than before.

 

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> I failed countless time, before I learned, spend a lot of time practicing in different runs, even after I have gotten my weekly kills, spend hours and hours into the golem training area learning my class, rotations etc and spend a lot of time in getting gear of every possible situation. If you aren't willing to put this effort into it, then sorry but you aren't entitled to do them and get any rewards out of them.

The main point is you aren't "entitled" to them either. You just get them because at the moment Anet made an arbitrary decision to that end. A decision they can change at any point. There's no serious argument why the only pve legendary armor set should be locked beyond raid. The best anyone could make is "because it's currently done that way", but that's not a very strong one in a game that constantly keeps changing things.

 

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> Learn them and do them, or realise that isn't the content for you and move on already.

And if i won't? Because, you know, this topic won't go away. Not unless the community will really lose interest in raids - in which case they'd die not very long after.

 

 

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >Pls understand this is not an opinion, its a fact. Pretty much, all raid encounters, can be pugged.

>

> In theory, just as many if not all can be beaten in all greens, or with very poor team comps, etc. But the *potential* state of them doesn't seem to mesh with the *practical* experiences of the average player. If you want to engage in semantics about "they can be pugged," I have no interest in that waste of time. The point here is that they cannot be pugged *conveniently enough* for many players. You don't have to *care,* but you can't actually dispute that, because you have no control over that reality. When people say "they want to be able to pug it," they mean THEMSELVES, not whether *some other* people are capable of it.

>

>

 

The reality is that raids are not meant to be convenient. Anet aimed raids at a certain target group and plenty of those are happy with raids as they are.

 

If the current open world content feels boring and unrewarding you should argue for an overhaul there.

 

 

 

 

[Felipe.1807]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >

> > > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

> > >

> > > Nah, I was there, and I was pretty consistent about wanting full rewards. Less quantity of rewards per clear, of course, but the same *quality* of rewards, so that multiple easy clears would at least add up to a single hard clear.

> >

> > Wrong, everyone who said about "easy mode" was saying they wanted to experince the raid, story and the fight...when rewards are brought up, most were fine with the idea of reduced or no rewards at all.

> >

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

> > >

> > > This was a long time ago in other games where raids actually progress the main story and are major content patches. In GW2 it was always about rewards.

> >

> > Dosent matter, people wanna be able to join the content that they are paying for it, right now most players aint able cause time and with lack of experience no group will allow them to join..."easy mode" would help these people, they would be able to experience the boss encounter, slowly learn the mechanics and with time get more confident to join a "Normal mode" raid...honestly cant see the problem with this...

> >

> > > 1. Legendary gear in general is not exclusive to raids. Weapons are actually exclusive to open world (but who cares you can get them right?).

> > > 2. Legendary armor is also available in WvW and PvP.

> >

> > Envoy is exclusive for Raids...WvW and sPvP "legendary" armor is greatest joke from Anet, true sign that they dont care at all for those game modes or their players.

>

> Just for the record, Anet is adding a new pvp glorious armor set in the future based off the glorious set and will have FX.

 

I am aware of the "new" sPvP armor...is just a retex of Ardent Glorious armor with some cheap effects, nobody with any common sense would even think on trying to compare the Enjoy armor with WvW and sPvP armor(Both Sublime Mistforged and 2.5 Glorious Armor)

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >

> > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > > > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

> > > >

> > > > Nah, I was there, and I was pretty consistent about wanting full rewards. Less quantity of rewards per clear, of course, but the same *quality* of rewards, so that multiple easy clears would at least add up to a single hard clear.

> > >

> > > Wrong, everyone who said about "easy mode" was saying they wanted to experince the raid, story and the fight...when rewards are brought up, most were fine with the idea of reduced or no rewards at all.

> > >

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > > > > A long time ago, when i cared to do raids and used to join this kinds of conversations, people were asking for easy mode, but with reduced or no reward at all, just to play the raid, see the story behind it, fight the boss, learn its mechanics and stuff and them be able to join a "normal" raid without being a dead weight and be completely clueless on how the the raid worked...nobody ever asked for easy mode plus normal rewards...but again, its hard to talk to raiders lol its like the situation on PvE legendary vs WvW and sPvP legendary armor, its a waste of time, let Anet do what they think its better for the game.

> > > >

> > > > This was a long time ago in other games where raids actually progress the main story and are major content patches. In GW2 it was always about rewards.

> > >

> > > Dosent matter, people wanna be able to join the content that they are paying for it, right now most players aint able cause time and with lack of experience no group will allow them to join..."easy mode" would help these people, they would be able to experience the boss encounter, slowly learn the mechanics and with time get more confident to join a "Normal mode" raid...honestly cant see the problem with this...

> > >

> > > > 1. Legendary gear in general is not exclusive to raids. Weapons are actually exclusive to open world (but who cares you can get them right?).

> > > > 2. Legendary armor is also available in WvW and PvP.

> > >

> > > Envoy is exclusive for Raids...WvW and sPvP "legendary" armor is greatest joke from Anet, true sign that they dont care at all for those game modes or their players.

> >

> > Just for the record, Anet is adding a new pvp glorious armor set in the future based off the glorious set and will have FX.

>

> I am aware of the "new" sPvP armor...is just a retex of Ardent Glorious armor with some cheap effects, nobody with any common sense would even think on trying to compare the Enjoy armor with WvW and sPvP armor(Both Sublime Mistforged and 2.5 Glorious Armor)

 

I’ll hold my judgement until I see the FX on the pvp armor. Don’t like the envoy set skin wise, they look ugly and are very buggy.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Rain.7543" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"geochan.9184" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > No, it's exactly as difficult as I think, the only difference is that you are fine with it being that difficult, and I would like it to be easier than that.

> > >

> > > It could be easier than what you think if you try.

> > Having tried it i can assure you that it isn't. Unless you unknowingly get carried, of course. I know a lot of players that thought raids were easy, and then found out that they simply were unaware of many encounter mechanics, because someone else was always doing those for them. Some of those players were raiding for quite a time, actually, and thought they already knew all there was to know about bosses they were killing.

> >

> > Maybe you're someone like that. Or maybe you're someone that finds some things to be so easy you really cannot imagine someone else might have any difficulty with them. Regardless of the reason, be assured that when some of us say raids aren't that easy for many players, we actually do know what we say.

>

> Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

 

This topic has shown us all clearly.. it's not the game.. it's the players.

 

[geochan.9184]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Having tried it i can assure you that it isn't. Unless you unknowingly get carried, of course. I know a lot of players that thought raids were easy, and then found out that they simply were unaware of many encounter mechanics, because someone else was always doing those for them. Some of those players were raiding for quite a time, actually, and thought they already knew all there was to know about bosses they were killing.

>

> Maybe you're someone like that. Or maybe you're someone that finds some things to be so easy you really cannot imagine someone else might have any difficulty with them. Regardless of the reason, be assured that when some of us say raids aren't that easy for many players, we actually do know what we say.

 

I'm not really a humble person so I'd admit that I am one of those that learns very fast and there are also many times i can't understand why people are having difficulties on some certain encounters.

 

I've met and played with many people like what you described that they were just naive and got carried and thought raids were easy or maybe i am one of them, i can't really say for sure that i have already know everything with just 2 months experience. I'll even admit that i can't really do my dps rotations right even until now, i am also not bothering to master them since it's a waste of time to hit the golem for me.

 

But i am very sure that those people are still very new to the raids and have only done it a very few times on easier encounters because there are many encounters that requires every single individual to know the mechanics and what they are doing and will be doing that if only a single person did wrong, the whole group would wipe. Also in any case, just because they don't know everything about that encounter yet doesn't mean their opinions of thinking it's easy is irrelevant.

 

As long as you are able to learn all the basic mechanics, execute them right, killing the boss and staying alive til the en-

 

Actually i kind of got tired thinking and typing all this, so good luck with this discussion. I'm off to play ~ (I still need 2000 gold for that armor)

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > >Pls understand this is not an opinion, its a fact. Pretty much, all raid encounters, can be pugged.

> >

> > In theory, just as many if not all can be beaten in all greens, or with very poor team comps, etc. But the *potential* state of them doesn't seem to mesh with the *practical* experiences of the average player. If you want to engage in semantics about "they can be pugged," I have no interest in that waste of time. The point here is that they cannot be pugged *conveniently enough* for many players. You don't have to *care,* but you can't actually dispute that, because you have no control over that reality. When people say "they want to be able to pug it," they mean THEMSELVES, not whether *some other* people are capable of it.

> >

> >

>

> The reality is that raids are not meant to be convenient. Anet aimed raids at a certain target group and plenty of those are happy with raids as they are.

>

> If the current open world content feels boring and unrewarding you should argue for an overhaul there.

>

>

>

>

 

You really believe the lack of quality of life options for raids is a feature for a targeted audience?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > It's too hard to connect with people and organize a group

> > > >

> > > > I think this is really sad. After all, this is a MMORPG, and as such it's only unique selling point is the social element. Many of my 8 years lasting WoW guild are still close friends. I think it's sad that most players in GW2 seem to play the game like a glorified single player instead of an actually social game :disappointed:

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The problem with GW2 is that it is unsociable by design. Conceptual-wise, GW2 is still too much of a single-player-game with optional multiplayer; not as bad as GW1, but arguably still not a true full-fledged MMORPG.

> >

> > That's not a bug, that's a **feature.**

>

> No, for a MMORPG, that's just bad game-design.

 

Again, for some games, that may be true, but it was one of the reasons that GW2 became successful, because players who *liked* that about the game flocked to it. So far, GW2 has been the **best** MMO ever for players who want to be playing *around* other players, but who have no interest in formally linking up with and micromanaging that relationship. You can just show up, help other players fight a boss, and then leave without any more interaction than that? **Best MMO EVER.**

 

Don't agree? There are like a billion other MMOs out there for you.

 

> @"geochan.9184" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > No, it's exactly as difficult as I think, the only difference is that you are fine with it being that difficult, and I would like it to be easier than that.

>

> It could be easier than what you think if you try.

 

Yes, but I don't want to try like that. I want it to be that easy without having to try like that. I don't want it to become easy after I've spent dozens of hours practicing the encounter, I want it to be easy the first time, every time. I get that you don't want that for yourself, that's fine, just understand, "ah don't want. . . your life."

 

> @"Rain.7543" said:

>Then maybe it's time to realise that this kind of content is simply not designed for you, if you have such difficulties with it.

 

Right, that's why I want an easy mode raid, because I *recognize* that their current state will never be for me, and I *want* a version that I can enjoy, and that doesn't have anything to do with you, because the version you enjoy will still be there.

 

> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

>The reality is that raids are not meant to be convenient.

 

Agreed, and *that* is why we are working to provide alternatives.

 

>If the current open world content feels boring and unrewarding you should argue for an overhaul there.

 

And can and do, from time to time, but what I'm talking about here is making a more accessible version of raids, which is an entirely separate topic.

 

 

 

[Digit.1823]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > >Pls understand this is not an opinion, its a fact. Pretty much, all raid encounters, can be pugged.

> > >

> > > In theory, just as many if not all can be beaten in all greens, or with very poor team comps, etc. But the *potential* state of them doesn't seem to mesh with the *practical* experiences of the average player. If you want to engage in semantics about "they can be pugged," I have no interest in that waste of time. The point here is that they cannot be pugged *conveniently enough* for many players. You don't have to *care,* but you can't actually dispute that, because you have no control over that reality. When people say "they want to be able to pug it," they mean THEMSELVES, not whether *some other* people are capable of it.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The reality is that raids are not meant to be convenient. Anet aimed raids at a certain target group and plenty of those are happy with raids as they are.

> >

> > If the current open world content feels boring and unrewarding you should argue for an overhaul there.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> You really believe the lack of quality of life options for raids is a feature for a targeted audience?

 

Except there isn't any lack of qol options for current raiders, because the current targeted audience is doing raids already without complaints. What even is this point? This is exactly the reason you never see any thread on this forum from people already doing the raids, because they are fine with it's current purpose/intention/design philosophy slap whatever word you want on it.

 

The current targeted audience hasn't had any trouble getting into raids in the first place because they like the challenge raids provided _which is literally what they asked for_, showed some actual **backbone**, went into the raid instances with actual enthousiasm and wiped many times. Improving, getting better, learning and eventually killing the boss. Gaining the satisfaction of success after a long and challenging encounter. Exactly how it was intended. And the current targeted audience _likes it this way_ because it promotes self improvement and people currently raiding have no trouble getting out of their comfort zone and doing exactly that.

 

I mean you keep telling people you've been in top raiding guilds before, surely this process i just described is not unfamiliar to you.

 

This actually might be the issue for many people interested in raids, not wanting to do some actual self improvement. But still wanting **all** the shinies, and i'm convinced it is actually this point that many people currently arguing have issues with. Because it just promotes the "auto-attack to victory" mentality and even i have to admit i am not quite so respectful of this mentality because it promotes laziness and i really dislike laziness.

 

If the idea is to give _new_ people interested in the raids qol options so they can get into raids easier now that is surely an idea i can get behind, but the people already raiding i'm not quite sure what they would stand to benefit since they're already raiding without issues anyway. Be it via a static group or just doing the pugway. Better grouping options or having a guild list tab that shows what guild does what so you know which one to join if you want to learn raids are actually suggestions I've seen coming from people i can only applaud.

 

*Edited for typos and clarifying*

[sokeenoppa.5384]

I dont get this "hard to organize" thing. Just Make group "X boss X li 2 class X 2 class X class 4 class X" now wait 5-15min and ur ready to go^^

[Ohoni.6057]

For the record, I have no problems with them adding QoL options that would make the lives of existing raiders easier. I just don't see them as a solution for the problems that non-raiders have with the system, and those should also be solved through other methods. In some of the "easier raids" discussions, people have pointed out things like "better highlighting of certain tells and mechanics," and really this is something that both easy and hard modes could benefit from having.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Again, for some games, that may be true, but it was one of the reasons that GW2 became successful, because players who *liked* that about the game flocked to it. So far, GW2 has been the **best** MMO ever for players who want to be playing *around* other players, but who have no interest in formally linking up with and micromanaging that relationship. You can just show up, help other players fight a boss, and then leave without any more interaction than that? **Best MMO EVER.**

 

Fair point, but then that's also an automatic "no" to anything like a raid- or group-finder.

 

Because, otherwise more development could be shifted (due to the ease of forming up) onto social content, and as you said, the inexistence or relative unimportance of group play is a key hallmark of the game.

 

In other words raids or dungeons should **never** be as important for development priority that an automated grouping tool becomes a useful addition to the game. If that happens, then too much emphasis has been put on content the game's playerbase isn't here for.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

>Fair point, but then that's also an automatic "no" to anything like a raid- or group-finder.

 

Well, instanced content by necessity involves entering with a fixed number of people, no more than 10 and as close to it as you can manage. Still, the *equivalent* process would involve just being able to link up with players as efficiently as possible, each setting about their tasks to the best of their ability and with relatively minimal set-up, and then splitting when the task is done.

 

>In other words raids or dungeons should never be as important for development priority that an automated grouping tool becomes a useful addition to the game. If that happens, then too much emphasis has been put on content the game's playerbase isn't here for.

 

True, to an extent, but it's unclear how much work it would take and what the devs tasked with it would be doing instead. Keep in mind that development tasks are not fungible, people that work on certain things generally *only* work on things at least *like* that task, so whoever would be working on that project would be working on something at least vaguely similar anyway, some UI or player interaction tool.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Digit.1823" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > >Pls understand this is not an opinion, its a fact. Pretty much, all raid encounters, can be pugged.

> > > >

> > > > In theory, just as many if not all can be beaten in all greens, or with very poor team comps, etc. But the *potential* state of them doesn't seem to mesh with the *practical* experiences of the average player. If you want to engage in semantics about "they can be pugged," I have no interest in that waste of time. The point here is that they cannot be pugged *conveniently enough* for many players. You don't have to *care,* but you can't actually dispute that, because you have no control over that reality. When people say "they want to be able to pug it," they mean THEMSELVES, not whether *some other* people are capable of it.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > The reality is that raids are not meant to be convenient. Anet aimed raids at a certain target group and plenty of those are happy with raids as they are.

> > >

> > > If the current open world content feels boring and unrewarding you should argue for an overhaul there.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You really believe the lack of quality of life options for raids is a feature for a targeted audience?

>

> Except there isn't any lack of qol options for current raiders, because the current targeted audience is doing raids already without complaints. What even is this point? This is exactly the reason you never see any thread on this forum from people already doing the raids, because they are fine with it's current purpose/intention/design philosophy slap whatever word you want on it.

>

> The current targeted audience hasn't had any trouble getting into raids in the first place because they like the challenge raids provided _which is literally what they asked for_, showed some actual **backbone**, went into the raid instances with actual enthousiasm and wiped many times. Improving, getting better, learning and eventually killing the boss. Gaining the satisfaction of success after a long and challenging encounter. Exactly how it was intended. And the current targeted audience _likes it this way_ because it promotes self improvement and people currently raiding have no trouble getting out of their comfort zone and doing exactly that.

>

> I mean you keep telling people you've been in top raiding guilds before, surely this process i just described is not unfamiliar to you.

>

> This actually might be the issue for many people interested in raids, not wanting to do some actual self improvement. But still wanting **all** the shinies, and i'm convinced it is actually this point that many people currently arguing have issues with. Because it just promotes the "auto-attack to victory" mentality and even i have to admit i am not quite so respectful of this mentality because it promotes laziness and i really dislike laziness.

>

> If the idea is to give _new_ people interested in the raids qol options so they can get into raids easier now that is surely an idea i can get behind, but the people already raiding i'm not quite sure what they would stand to benefit since they're already raiding without issues anyway. Be it via a static group or just doing the pugway. Better grouping options or having a guild list tab that shows what guild does what so you know which one to join if you want to learn raids are actually suggestions I've seen coming from people i can only applaud.

>

> *Edited for typos and clarifying*

 

My line of thinking was just giving a better adjustment period or training portion of an introductory instance to expose the players to the type of content they will soon be experiencing if they have never done it before. Kinda like doing stretching and a warm up before excercising.

 

To me, ( and I could be extremely way off base here) is that currently it seems that from W1 you jump into full reps without getting anything warmed up. People aren’t sure what to expect, are not sure of the different play types within raids, thus exposing to the environment through an introductory instance or a wing 0.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> My line of thinking was just giving a better adjustment period or training portion of an introductory instance to expose the players to the type of content they will soon be experiencing if they have never done it before. Kinda like doing stretching and a warm up before excercising.

>

> To me, ( and I could be extremely way off base here) is that currently it seems that from W1 you jump into full reps without getting anything warmed up. People aren’t sure what to expect, are not sure of the different play types within raids, thus exposing to the environment through an introductory instance or a wing 0.

 

Aren't the three mobs you fight before Vale Guardian introductory enough? They teach you some essential raiding skills:

First, they teach you the value of preparation, something not found in most of the rest of the game. In Raids you need to adapt to the encounter and can't have everyone bring a random build. It's impossible to beat the Blue (needs boon strip) and the Red (needs condition damage) Guardians without using appropriate skills. You probably can't beat any without enough healing.

Second, they teach you cooperation, another thing that is missing from most of the rest of the game. That is, to rely on your teammates to provide you with essential healing and buffing in order to succeed. Further, in Raids specific players need to fulfill specific roles, who will go to the green circles when fighting the blue guardian, who will heal, who will remove boons, who will tank etc. n most of the game (with the exception of high end fractals) you don't really rely on others to heal or buff you, you do all of it yourself and you only expect others to come pick you up in case you are downed, nor the content require roles, with some exceptions like the egg blocker role when fighting the triple trouble wurm and of course the "commander" role used nearly everywhere.

 

Then the Vale Guardian itself is an introduction to Raiding by having ridiculously easy mechanics at first (older Raiders must be bored of the first phase of VG by now, if not the entire fight!) and gets progressively harder by adding more layers of difficulty. I'm not sure about the rest of Wing 1, but Vale Guardian is probably the best introduction to Raiding a new player needs

[CptAurellian.9537]

While I wouldn't mind better introduction for newbies (actually, into a lot of stuff), I also have to ask: what is it for which there is no introduction in other parts of PvE? The only thing I can think of is toughness-determined aggro at some bosses, which in most cases is a no-brainer mechanic. Until you reach the bosses that require some actual tanking (Xera, Deimos, SH and Dhuum), you should have learned the principles. Anything else is fight-specific anyway.

 

The importance of healing, proper support, break bars etc. should already be rather obvious from fractals, at least to anyone that plays with halfway open eyes. Add in the tons of guidance material that's available from many sources (video guides, written boss guides, etc.), so in my view it would be an almost grotesque waste of developer resources to design an entire instance that takes players by the hand to teach them the very basics of their class and the game. Those who care have enough ways of finding out; those who don't also won't take anything from such a tutorial instance. I simply don't see how such a tutorial instance can have a proper ratio between the effort to design it and the rewards gained from having one.

 

There's just one thing where I agree that a comprehensive tutorial is desperately needed: break bars. But that tutorial must be placed in an open world or story setting that's nearly impossible to miss.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

>The only thing I can think of is toughness-determined aggro at some bosses, which in most cases is a no-brainer mechanic. Until you reach the bosses that require some actual tanking (Xera, Deimos, SH and Dhuum), you should have learned the principles. Anything else is fight-specific anyway.

 

Actually, this is kind of an interesting one, because if you go in knowing the trick, it's pretty easy to pick up, but if you don't already know it, how do you tell? Unless one player is geared with especially high Toughness and everyone else is glassy, it'll just "randomly start following one guy," and then maybe shift around a little as various buffs pop up. Is there any way that it clearly messages "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?"

 

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Actually, this is kind of an interesting one, because if you go in knowing the trick, it's pretty easy to pick up, but if you don't already know it, how do you tell? Unless one player is geared with especially high Toughness and everyone else is glassy, it'll just "randomly start following one guy," and then maybe shift around a little as various buffs pop up. Is there any way that it clearly messages "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?"

>

 

If there was a clear message "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?" and similar messages for other mechanics, then it would defeat any purpose of exploration or finding out the mechanics of a fight on your own. Like watching a good movie with the major plot twist already known. Some mechanics are intentionally vague so players can discover them by trial and error. For those that do not want to find out the mechanics the hard way, there are always guides.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> >The only thing I can think of is toughness-determined aggro at some bosses, which in most cases is a no-brainer mechanic. Until you reach the bosses that require some actual tanking (Xera, Deimos, SH and Dhuum), you should have learned the principles. Anything else is fight-specific anyway.

>

> Actually, this is kind of an interesting one, because if you go in knowing the trick, it's pretty easy to pick up, but if you don't already know it, how do you tell? Unless one player is geared with especially high Toughness and everyone else is glassy, it'll just "randomly start following one guy," and then maybe shift around a little as various buffs pop up. Is there any way that it clearly messages "I'm chasing this guy because he has high Toughness?"

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=guild+wars+2+raid+tank

The solution is really, really simple. There's not even a need for complex thinking involved.