Odinens.5920 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Rashagar.8349" said: (This isn't referring to having squad preferences by the way, but you do see people who think that because they have a commander tag they get to dictate to the entire map/server sometimes, or dish out blame etc to those not playing "the right" way). Most people that play WvW on a regular basis will recognize those commanders, and personally I ignore them (like most people). Which brings us back to the "do some research on commanders" thing I mentioned. Not every commander is like this, and in my opinion not every commander should even be leading, but I know which ones are which, and also realize that's their prerogative, and depending how I feel like playing on any one night will decide which map to go to and which tag to follow, if any. I won't sit back and say, "I feel like playing ranger tonight, so I'm gonna join 'comp tag' and make him take me into his squad even if he doesn't want me, because that's what I want to play." I may follow him around sniping his backline for him, but to expect him to put me in his squad, when I know that's not what he wants would be pretty selfish of me, not him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashagar.8349 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > @"Rashagar.8349" said: > (This isn't referring to having squad preferences by the way, but you do see people who think that because they have a commander tag they get to dictate to the entire map/server sometimes, or dish out blame etc to those not playing "the right" way). > > Most people that play WvW on a regular basis will recognize those commanders, and personally I ignore them (like most people). > > Which brings us back to the "do some research on commanders" thing I mentioned. Not every commander is like this, and in my opinion not every commander should even be leading, but I know which ones are which, and also realize that's their prerogative, and depending how I feel like playing on any one night will decide which map to go to and which tag to follow, if any. > > I won't sit back and say, "I feel like playing ranger tonight, so I'm gonna join 'comp tag' and make him take me into his squad even if he doesn't want me, because that's what I want to play." I may follow him around sniping his backline for him, but to expect him to put me in his squad, when I know that's not what he wants would be pretty selfish of me, not him. > > > Again, I don't disagree with anything you said, except when it comes to newer wvw players. Putting the onus on them to do the research on all individual commanders while learning the game mode and also figuring out what the reasonable point of view of the silent majority is and how it differs from that of the loud crankypants, is probably quite a bit to ask. I think it's much more reasonable to hold commanders accountable to their own actions, since they're the ones that should know better by this stage, and I believe that their unreasonable opinions reigning unchallenged in map chat is almost certainly the main cause of these sorts of threads popping up, rather than some universal personality trait of all of the disparate OPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > Wvw is open content, because it is not a private closed instance lol. > > WvW is an instanced mass pvp zone with objectives, that has a limit on the number of people allowed in it at a time. That is not open. Not in the way you are implying. It's open world, you can't create a new instance of wvw yourself and bar people from entering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceDead.1963 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > Wvw is open content, because it is not a private closed instance lol. > > > > WvW is an instanced mass pvp zone with objectives, that has a limit on the number of people allowed in it at a time. That is not open. Not in the way you are implying. > > It's open world, you can't create a new instance of wvw yourself and bar people from entering it. WvW is instanced PvP on a large scale. Besides, it already does that; bars people from entering, happens when the map population limit is reached. The que numbers can reach as high as the 80's on a busy weekend depending on server, so it's really not open in the sense that you can "Join anytime" if there's a particular activity you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinens.5920 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > Wvw is open content, because it is not a private closed instance lol. > > > > WvW is an instanced mass pvp zone with objectives, that has a limit on the number of people allowed in it at a time. That is not open. Not in the way you are implying. > > It's open world, you can't create a new instance of wvw yourself and bar people from entering it. When a map out in PvE is full another instance of the same map is opened up **so as many people can fit into the zone as want to be there.** That is open world. When a map in WvW is full there is no more versions of it opening up for people. You sit in queue and wait. That is instanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > > > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > Wvw is open content, because it is not a private closed instance lol. > > > > > > WvW is an instanced mass pvp zone with objectives, that has a limit on the number of people allowed in it at a time. That is not open. Not in the way you are implying. > > > > It's open world, you can't create a new instance of wvw yourself and bar people from entering it. > > WvW is instanced PvP on a large scale. > Besides, it already does that; bars people from entering, happens when the map population limit is reached. The que numbers can reach as high as the 80's on a busy weekend depending on server, so it's really not open in the sense that you can "Join anytime" if there's a particular activity you're looking for. Even the pve zones have population limits. True in even the most open world game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 >If a commander wishes to have only certain professions in his/hers squad, he/she should organize a squad from their guild/friends, etc that would go for their rules. ahahaha. No. It's the other way around, you have to follow the squad rules. If you really want to play ranger/DH/scrapper/etc, just look for another tag that would accept you or just follow them anyways without joining the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater of Peeps.9062 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. Where does it say anywhere in anet's rules/game play advertisements/squad creation notes, etc. that commanders who buy a tag and get squad followers get to make squad rules as long as there's no verbal harassment. I am not aware of any right that has been described as "it's the Commander's squad so its his/her right to do what they want." Also, I'm pretty sure the Commander's don't have an imaginary right to be exclusionary to the point where they are discriminating against disabled people (ie - making TS mandatory, even when people are deaf). Also, if a Commander said no .... (insert prejudicial requirement here) but didn't swear, is that allowed or his/her right? Also, I have heard many a commander swear or be exceedingly unkind when excluding people from squads who desperately want to join. I have also heard squad members do likewise. I also have heard of commanders and squad members making fun of people booted from squads in very unkind and unflattering manners. Is this right/fair/kind/morally appropriate/something that should be encouraged? Also, the OP has a significant point - he/she is being excluded from playing with the squad just because of the class/build/gear/attitude/experience, etc. he/she possesses, yet he/she bought the game with the same expectation as those playing in squad. Also, as we all know, running alongside the squad is not at all the same experience or similar experience as being in the squad. The player running alongside the squad dies more, gets less protections, heals less, is less effective in healing others (he/she just guesses I guess), gets less rewards, gets less rezzes, etc., all of which hurts the player, the squad, the server and the game. Also, many pugs run zerg builds, so the argument that all solo players are gankers or roamers does not fly. Squad exclusion should not be allowed and a technical solution should be implemented. Squad exclusion encourages hurtful behaviors from players and alienates players. Squads should be open, especially during prime time, of if a commander or commanders is/are monopolizing one or more maps for hours on end, and whenever the squad is not full (unless it is truly a guild only squad). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceDead.1963 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > > > > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > Wvw is open content, because it is not a private closed instance lol. > > > > > > > > WvW is an instanced mass pvp zone with objectives, that has a limit on the number of people allowed in it at a time. That is not open. Not in the way you are implying. > > > > > > It's open world, you can't create a new instance of wvw yourself and bar people from entering it. > > > > WvW is instanced PvP on a large scale. > > Besides, it already does that; bars people from entering, happens when the map population limit is reached. The que numbers can reach as high as the 80's on a busy weekend depending on server, so it's really not open in the sense that you can "Join anytime" if there's a particular activity you're looking for. > > Even the pve zones have population limits. True in even the most open world game. But you'll never be barred from playing that particular content, ever, because a new instance will open 'Just for you'. No such grace in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater of Peeps.9062 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Danikat.8537" said: > >> > It can be annoying, but commanders do get to set the rules for their squad and as long as it's not violating the rules of the game itself those can be whatever they want. But equally players get to decide which squad/s they join and if enough people don't like the strict rules the commanders making them will be left with an empty squad. > > The problem of course is when there aren't many other options. If you want to play WvW you've only got 4 maps to choose from (5 if you count Edge of the Mists) and I think a lot of worlds have an unofficial rule of only having 1 public squad per map (there can be others, usually small roaming guild squads, but they generally don't let anyone else join) so if you don't like a commander your options are limited. > > There's been times when I've loaded into WvW, found a commander, joined the squad, seen the squad message and left immediately, even knowing I'll have to either go to a map I like less or skip playing WvW that evening, because they've set rules I think are overly strict or absurd, even if they don't affect me directly (like one which demanded you mail an item to the commander to prove you're not playing a free account). Fortunately I only play WvW sporadically so for me it's not a problem if I have to do something else for an evening. > > If they're crossing the line into verbal abuse then you should report them, but you still can't do anything about it except report and leave to find another squad. The significant majority of time there are no public squads on all maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater of Peeps.9062 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > > > @"Vova.2640" said: > > Yes, commanders have the right to ask you to run a different class. If you want to run with that commander, do as he asks. > > You dying in wvw is only helping the enemy team win since you rally the enemies downs. > > > > Tbh anet really needs to add invisible tags for this sort of thing. > > I wish anet would accept the fact that wvw is not pve. > > Yes, pve is all great and friendly and everyone's a winner. But in wvw the "rules of the game" are different. > > You can run whatever you want in pve at the end of the day you are fighting an AI. In wvw this will not cut it you have to run better builds and be overall more skilled or you're just gonna be a rallybot and have a bad time. > > > > Solution? Join a wvw guild. Ask for advice. Ask for tips for builds and your class. > > I don't know about most servers, Im on SoS and here for the most part guilds welcome all players who are willing to learned and get better. > > > Commanders shouldn't have the right (if they even do - I am not aware of any such right) to ask you to run a different class. If you don't want to run with that commander, there is most of the time no other squad option. If you are out of the squad and running alongside it, or running solo with a zerg build (roamers and gankers are not an issue as they are not interested in squads), you are dying more than if you are in squad, so you are hurting the squad and yourself and your server more than if you were in squad, so your helping the enemy team more out of squad. Invisible tags would alienate pug players even more and make the situation much worse. Clique anyone? The rules of the game in wvw are not different - people are trying to win and stay alive. In wvw if you are in squad or out, your build is the same with the same net effect. You actually have to be more skilled to run alongside the squad solo and not die than if you are in squad. Being excluded is the essence of a bad time. Join a guild? You assume that every solo pug needs help/advice/tips/build improvement/class improvement. Some people play exceedingly well with iconoclastic builds/classes/gear/attitudes, etc. You state: "For the most part ...." Aye, there's the rub. That's the problem. And I can honestly say from playing solo on BG since beta, "most guilds" and most commanders run closed squads more often than not. The OP has a valid point/frustration and exclusionary play is a significant problem in wvw that has contributed significantly to player attrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater of Peeps.9062 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > > > @"Vova.2640" said: > If you don't like a commander, don't follow him. > If you don't like any commanders on your server, try a different server. > If you want to be part of a group, be ready to offer something for the group as well. > Commanders don't pick and choose classes to be kitten. They do that to increase the chances of winning a fight which benefits the entire squad. End of story. > No other commanders on a map at the same time, and most times, all commanders on all maps are running closed squads with TS mandatory. Can't afford a different server. And the problem exists on all servers. I offer plenty to the group - squads I run alongside all benefit from the bags I give them by my playing full ascended viper Scourge and wvwing weekly since beta. What do they give me when I run alongside? Oh, that's right. Nothing - no protections, no heals, no bags, no rezzes, no camaraderie, nothing. Sounds really fair. Sounds like little pug me is the problem. Yes they do - they often exclude just because they don't like a person, or don't like criticism, or don't like someone's attitude (they could be the best player on the map), or don't like complaining, or some squad member doesn't like the player and so advises the commander to not accept/boot, or they demand TS from people without access to it (including, amazingly, from deaf people), or they don't like their build or their food or their gear or their class or whatever. If commanders really want to win a fight they will accept all, especially when the squad is not full. By accepting the pugs into squad, they will die less, receive more protections, heal the squad more effectively, give and receive more rezzes, and possibly ask for and receive tips/advice in squad as to how better to improve play and win. They can also observe the movements of players/the squad and effects of those movements more easily when in squad than when alongside it. There is really absolutely zero reason to not accept all players who want to join into the squad. It benefits everyone -- the squad and the server. I have too often seen poorly performing players in squad while excellent players struggle unnecessarily to contribute and stay alive (but usually do) outside the squad. Abolish closed squads. It's exclusionary and serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to be arbitrarily (or worse) exclusionary. End of story. > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solemn.9670 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Being casual does not mean that you need to forfeit your value in a group-based game-mode. Would you go to a casual hockey game and play with a tree branch instead of a stick? Probably not bud. They have every right to be looking at you a bit weird in the same way that they would be if you brought a tree branch to a hockey game. Stop bringing a thief to a WvW zerg, unless you're a highly efficient backline ganker you're not really even DOING anything. Go roam or switch to another role. Listen to your commander, don't be 'that pve guy who won't listen to anyone or take criticism.' Also, to the guy above, no. Not end of story lol. By accepting pugs into your squad all you do is make it so that the boons which would be better off going to your competent guild members who are playing a meta build end up going to people who still use rare backpacks and have delayed reaction time, squirrel from the tag, etc.... It's not elitism, it's logic. You wanna go out to war with the group of guys carrying bronze swords or the trained militia with guns? Tough choice right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Odinens.5920" said: > > > > > > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > Wvw is open content, because it is not a private closed instance lol. > > > > > > WvW is an instanced mass pvp zone with objectives, that has a limit on the number of people allowed in it at a time. That is not open. Not in the way you are implying. > > > > It's open world, you can't create a new instance of wvw yourself and bar people from entering it. > > When a map out in PvE is full another instance of the same map is opened up **so as many people can fit into the zone as want to be there.** That is open world. > > When a map in WvW is full there is no more versions of it opening up for people. You sit in queue and wait. That is instanced. > > Closed instances are usually generated by a user and bar all other users from entereing unless the creator invites them in. All of GW1 was a closed instance when you ventured out of town. In town however was conisdered an open instance, because anyone could join and we as individuals had no control over who could join a town or not. Likewise in wvw anyone can join and nobody can prevent someone from joining a map. If a map gets full, yes the game itself blocks people from entering, but this is not the definition of a closed instance in terms of gaming lingo. Every game on the planet has a cap on how many players can join into a certain map/area, yet we still refer to these as open world, because it is not up to the player to control who can and who cannot enter it, if they could we call that a (private/closed instance) much like dungeon are in GW2 or fractals or raids. towns like lions arch, the pvp lobby, wvw, eotm and all pve maps are considered open world/open instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seinka.4823 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Eater of Peeps.9062" said: > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > Where does it say anywhere in anet's rules/game play advertisements/squad creation notes, etc. that commanders who buy a tag and get squad followers get to make squad rules as long as there's no verbal harassment. > Where does it say it's **not** allowed? > I am not aware of any right that has been described as "it's the Commander's squad so its his/her right to do what they want." > Everyone, who creates any party or any squad (regardless whether it's PvE or WvW or whatever), has the right to accept anyone they want or not accept anyone they don't want. We can discuss, whether rules such as "only female asuras berserkers with longbow/rifle allowed" are reasonable or not, but even if the commander wants to be unreasonable, s/he has the right to be unreasonable. > Also, I'm pretty sure the Commander's don't have an imaginary right to be exclusionary to the point where they are discriminating against disabled people (ie - making TS mandatory, even when people are deaf). > Are you sure you're not trolling? > Also, if a Commander said no .... (insert prejudicial requirement here) but didn't swear, is that allowed or his/her right? > Yes. As long as it's not against ToS. > Also, I have heard many a commander swear or be exceedingly unkind when excluding people from squads who desperately want to join. I have also heard squad members do likewise. I also have heard of commanders and squad members making fun of people booted from squads in very unkind and unflattering manners. Is this right/fair/kind/morally appropriate/something that should be encouraged? > Why would you join squads with such commanders? One of the good ways to let them know some behaviour is not acceptable for you, is to not joining them. > Also, the OP has a significant point - he/she is being excluded from playing with the squad just because of the class/build/gear/attitude/experience, etc. he/she possesses, yet he/she bought the game with the same expectation as those playing in squad. > And? >Squad exclusion encourages hurtful behaviors from players. > How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No One.3716 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 If you guys troll like this in squad, map or team chat then I think we have identified the real reason why you don't get invited to squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vova.2640 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Eater of Peeps.9062" said: > > > > @"Vova.2640" said: > > If you don't like a commander, don't follow him. > > If you don't like any commanders on your server, try a different server. > > If you want to be part of a group, be ready to offer something for the group as well. > > Commanders don't pick and choose classes to be kitten. They do that to increase the chances of winning a fight which benefits the entire squad. End of story. > > > > No other commanders on a map at the same time, and most times, all commanders on all maps are running closed squads with TS mandatory. > > Can't afford a different server. And the problem exists on all servers. > > I offer plenty to the group - squads I run alongside all benefit from the bags I give them by my playing full ascended viper Scourge and wvwing weekly since beta. What do they give me when I run alongside? Oh, that's right. Nothing - no protections, no heals, no bags, no rezzes, no camaraderie, nothing. Sounds really fair. Sounds like little pug me is the problem. > > Yes they do - they often exclude just because they don't like a person, or don't like criticism, or don't like someone's attitude (they could be the best player on the map), or don't like complaining, or some squad member doesn't like the player and so advises the commander to not accept/boot, or they demand TS from people without access to it (including, amazingly, from deaf people), or they don't like their build or their food or their gear or their class or whatever. > > If commanders really want to win a fight they will accept all, especially when the squad is not full. By accepting the pugs into squad, they will die less, receive more protections, heal the squad more effectively, give and receive more rezzes, and possibly ask for and receive tips/advice in squad as to how better to improve play and win. They can also observe the movements of players/the squad and effects of those movements more easily when in squad than when alongside it. > > There is really absolutely zero reason to not accept all players who want to join into the squad. It benefits everyone -- the squad and the server. I have too often seen poorly performing players in squad while excellent players struggle unnecessarily to contribute and stay alive (but usually do) outside the squad. > > Abolish closed squads. It's exclusionary and serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to be arbitrarily (or worse) exclusionary. > > End of story. > > Sigh.... I actually find it ridiculous that people can be so... entitled. Commanders have every right to exclude you or any player they do not want in the squad for any reason. If you do don't like a commander, tag up yourself and run an open squad. Include everyone and do whatever you want. Also, based on you write, I can see why some commanders wouldn't want you... If everyone in the squad is in TS, listening to the commander, what makes you so special that you should be in the squad while you can't even spend 20 seconds to get in TS... This is like hands down the most basic wvw requirement. Anyway, I will not argue on this anymore. If you don't like how your server/commanders operate, go farm gold (it's really not that hard.....) and transfer elsewhere. Yes, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vova.2640 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"No One.3716" said: > If you guys troll like this in squad, map or team chat then I think we have identified the real reason why you don't get invited to squads. ^^^^ Very much this. It is very clear from the posts here why some people get kicked out of squads lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"No One.3716" said: > If you guys troll like this in squad, map or team chat then I think we have identified the real reason why you don't get invited to squads. If someone is deaf, then what good does ts do as a squad requirement for them specifically? Should they be excluded? That Is against tos to discriminate. Wvw is an open world game mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No One.3716 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 Exceptions are made every day for friendly players who communicate their circumstance. It isn't the intent of that requirement to exclude deaf players nor is it the norm to consider every conceivable circumstance while formulating requirements for group raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Vova.2640" said: > > @"Eater of Peeps.9062" said: > > > > > @"Vova.2640" said: > > > If you don't like a commander, don't follow him. > > > If you don't like any commanders on your server, try a different server. > > > If you want to be part of a group, be ready to offer something for the group as well. > > > Commanders don't pick and choose classes to be kitten. They do that to increase the chances of winning a fight which benefits the entire squad. End of story. > > > > > > > No other commanders on a map at the same time, and most times, all commanders on all maps are running closed squads with TS mandatory. > > > > Can't afford a different server. And the problem exists on all servers. > > > > I offer plenty to the group - squads I run alongside all benefit from the bags I give them by my playing full ascended viper Scourge and wvwing weekly since beta. What do they give me when I run alongside? Oh, that's right. Nothing - no protections, no heals, no bags, no rezzes, no camaraderie, nothing. Sounds really fair. Sounds like little pug me is the problem. > > > > Yes they do - they often exclude just because they don't like a person, or don't like criticism, or don't like someone's attitude (they could be the best player on the map), or don't like complaining, or some squad member doesn't like the player and so advises the commander to not accept/boot, or they demand TS from people without access to it (including, amazingly, from deaf people), or they don't like their build or their food or their gear or their class or whatever. > > > > If commanders really want to win a fight they will accept all, especially when the squad is not full. By accepting the pugs into squad, they will die less, receive more protections, heal the squad more effectively, give and receive more rezzes, and possibly ask for and receive tips/advice in squad as to how better to improve play and win. They can also observe the movements of players/the squad and effects of those movements more easily when in squad than when alongside it. > > > > There is really absolutely zero reason to not accept all players who want to join into the squad. It benefits everyone -- the squad and the server. I have too often seen poorly performing players in squad while excellent players struggle unnecessarily to contribute and stay alive (but usually do) outside the squad. > > > > Abolish closed squads. It's exclusionary and serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to be arbitrarily (or worse) exclusionary. > > > > End of story. > > > > > > Sigh.... I actually find it ridiculous that people can be so... entitled. > > Commanders have every right to exclude you or any player they do not want in the squad for any reason. > If you do don't like a commander, tag up yourself and run an open squad. Include everyone and do whatever you want. > > Also, based on you write, I can see why some commanders wouldn't want you... > If everyone in the squad is in TS, listening to the commander, what makes you so special that you should be in the squad while you can't even spend 20 seconds to get in TS... This is like hands down the most basic wvw requirement. > > Anyway, I will not argue on this anymore. If you don't like how your server/commanders operate, go farm gold (it's really not that hard.....) and transfer elsewhere. > Yes, end of story. I understand that the game allows commanders to do what they like in their squad in terms of mechanics, because that's how the game mechanics are setup(easiest most cost effective solution for Anet). Nowhere does it say though that commanders are entitled do whatever they like in their own squad socially, that's actually a totally separate argument. Anet giving the power to commanders to regulate their squads mechanically, is not the same as saying therefor you can do anything socially. We know commanders can't discriminate against others based on race or religion or anything else that violates tos, so there's a line drawn right there socially, which illustrates my point. So why say things like commanders are entitled to exclude anyone for any reason they like, when this is not true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"No One.3716" said: > > If you guys troll like this in squad, map or team chat then I think we have identified the real reason why you don't get invited to squads. > > If someone is deaf, then what good does ts do as a squad requirement for them specifically? Should they be excluded? That Is against tos to discriminate. Wvw is an open world game mode. Teach the commander how to read hand signals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinens.5920 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" I don't know why I even respond to you anymore, as you clearly make posts just to stir up arguments. I also don't know how many different ways I can explain to you that you are wrong. GW2 open world - If you want to hang out in Crystal Desert (example), but the max number of people allowed on the map has been reached, the game creates a new map to allow you to hang out there. Nobody is ever shut out of a map. GW2 instanced map - PvP; 10 people allowed, that's it, no new map. Dungeons; 5 people allowed, that's it, no new map. PvE raids; 10 people allowed, that's it, no new map. WvW; 80-100 people allowed (don't know the exact number) per server, that's it, no new map. Limited number of people allowed on the map means instanced, which means a queue if it's full, which also means a commander, who also has a limit of 50 people for his/her squad, has the right to form the type of squad he/she wants. This also means that if you don't have the class/build or voice comms he/she requests you don't HAVE to be in their squad. Find a commander that will take you, follow the tag while not being in the squad, roam solo or with other people, or switch classes/builds to accommodate the one commander you seem intent on joining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashagar.8349 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Vova.2640" said: > > @"Eater of Peeps.9062" said: > > > > > @"Vova.2640" said: > > > If you don't like a commander, don't follow him. > > > If you don't like any commanders on your server, try a different server. > > > If you want to be part of a group, be ready to offer something for the group as well. > > > Commanders don't pick and choose classes to be kitten. They do that to increase the chances of winning a fight which benefits the entire squad. End of story. > > > > > > > No other commanders on a map at the same time, and most times, all commanders on all maps are running closed squads with TS mandatory. > > > > Can't afford a different server. And the problem exists on all servers. > > > > I offer plenty to the group - squads I run alongside all benefit from the bags I give them by my playing full ascended viper Scourge and wvwing weekly since beta. What do they give me when I run alongside? Oh, that's right. Nothing - no protections, no heals, no bags, no rezzes, no camaraderie, nothing. Sounds really fair. Sounds like little pug me is the problem. > > > > Yes they do - they often exclude just because they don't like a person, or don't like criticism, or don't like someone's attitude (they could be the best player on the map), or don't like complaining, or some squad member doesn't like the player and so advises the commander to not accept/boot, or they demand TS from people without access to it (including, amazingly, from deaf people), or they don't like their build or their food or their gear or their class or whatever. > > > > If commanders really want to win a fight they will accept all, especially when the squad is not full. By accepting the pugs into squad, they will die less, receive more protections, heal the squad more effectively, give and receive more rezzes, and possibly ask for and receive tips/advice in squad as to how better to improve play and win. They can also observe the movements of players/the squad and effects of those movements more easily when in squad than when alongside it. > > > > There is really absolutely zero reason to not accept all players who want to join into the squad. It benefits everyone -- the squad and the server. I have too often seen poorly performing players in squad while excellent players struggle unnecessarily to contribute and stay alive (but usually do) outside the squad. > > > > Abolish closed squads. It's exclusionary and serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to be arbitrarily (or worse) exclusionary. > > > > End of story. > > > > > > Sigh.... I actually find it ridiculous that people can be so... entitled. > I always find it funny when people use the word entitled in this kind of context, just because of how often it seems that the people using the word are the ones that have been getting their own way for so long that they think they're entitled to it, don't want that to change and have no sense of irony. I'm not saying you're one of those people by the way, just admitting to one of my own biases when I see the word being used and letting you know how it can come across to anyone whose spent any time on the internet. I'm sure you've encountered the kind of people I'm talking about, just as I'm sure you're more self aware than they are. (These forums being, in general, a great place. Which I suppose is another bias of mine that you're benefitting from haha!) > Commanders have every right to exclude you or any player they do not want in the squad for any reason. > If you do don't like a commander, tag up yourself and run an open squad. Include everyone and do whatever you want. > I agree with this sentiment in this context (excluding the hyperbole of "any" reason), but there are definitely right ways and wrong ways to go about it. For example I think it's stupid for commanders with open tags to exclude people from squads if the squad isn't approaching full, because wvw is still a numbers game however you want to cut it. When it gets time to shuffle people around a quick friendly squad message is all it takes to maintain an open and welcoming atmosphere. (Something like "Squad approaching full, going to optimise now, if you find yourself kicked to make room don't worry about it, just run alongside the tag and you'll be fine.") If this sort of quick alt-tab copy paste is too much for a commander I still think having a trusted +1 to do all the squad management and leave the commander to actually commanding is still a good idea. No I definitely don't think closed squads should be abolished. But I also don't think there's any point in pretending that there are no commanders that could benefit from learning a thing or two, or pretending that a commander's attitude can't be actively damaging to the inclusivity of the server (and therefore actively harmful to the long term health of the game mode). There are a lot of skills involved in open tag commanding, it's a big job, and people skills are just one of the many things that can sometimes do with improvement. (Referencing the OP) while I believe that it's fine for commanders to organise their squad however they like, I don't think commanders have the right to tell people to switch to a different class. There's a definite distinction there for me. (I always assume that everyone agrees with this and then get surprised when there are people who don't eg. commanders who think the entire map queue is their's to command). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf.8670 Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Asltok.4327" said: > > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > > > > If a Commander is running a squad, they do have the right to tell people to switch to a different class; it's their tag and their squad, so they get to make the rules, as long as they're not verbally harassing anyone. However, the other players also have a right to not play in that Commander's squad and either join a new squad or just run along with the squad, without actually being IN the squad. No "technical solution" is needed here. > > > > > > > > > > But where do you draw the line, your saying they have the right to not let certain classes in, can also exclude people they don't like? Can also exclude people of certain religions or ethnicity too? Oh now it's against tos. Hard to know how or why people are excluded. I think that in wvw if your tagged up, anyone from your server can join,unless it's a guild group comprised 100% of guild members. > > > > > > > > Why are people attempting to join a squad in wvw bringing up their ethnicity and religion? > > > > > > They aren't, he just had to use an outrageous and extreme example to make his point look better. > > > > > > Here's what it is. If I don't want to play a video game with you, I won't. If I'm a leader of a group, I will reserve my right to pick who I want in my group. If I don't want certain classes, then I'm not taking them. This isn't some kindergarten inclusion zone. It's not my problem you chose to play the game in a way I deem ineffective, and I won't hamper my own time and enjoyment just to cater to you. And if it ever comes to extremes like that? It's still a video game that I use my time and money to enjoy, and if I don't want to play with you for whatever reason, I will make my own group with it's own requirements, because my time is mine alone, and I choose how to spend it. > > > > I feel like you should only be able to scrutinize if you have a 100% guild squad, as soon as you take in a pug, I don't feel like you should be able to exclude for any reason. > > Player 1 should never be able to force player 2 to play with him. > > If we are going to use outrageous examples here: > > Forcing someone else to play with you, when they do not wish to do so, is slavery. > > Slavery is bad. Slavery? You've just blown up any argument you may have. Isn't WvW open-join? If so, no player has the right to tell another how or what to play, 300g commander tag or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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