Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > > 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> > >

> > > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

> >

> > Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

>

> ...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.

 

This is Gorseval. The only mechanic that matters in this fight is dps. And if a lone scourge can outdps a weaver on this fight, imagine what epi bouncing can do.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > > > 

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> > > >

> > > > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

> > >

> > > Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

> >

> > ...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.

>

> This is Gorseval. The only mechanic that matters in this fight is dps. And if a lone scourge can outdps a weaver on this fight, imagine what epi bouncing can do.

 

So? Was already mentioned that the Scourge could have been a top-player and the Weavers rather mediocre. ...and I've seen enough Weavers kill themselves at the cc-phases. Could very well be the case here too. This is just one single case. It doesn't represent anything at all.

[nia.4725]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > > > 

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> > > >

> > > > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

> > >

> > > Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

> >

> > ...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.

>

> This is Gorseval. The only mechanic that matters in this fight is dps. And if a lone scourge can outdps a weaver on this fight, imagine what epi bouncing can do.

 


 

We killed it in 4:24 minutes and, as you can see, we didn't even have really good DPS.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

> >

> > Why would you compare a novice to not one ?

> > Just because it suits your narrative ?

> >

> > Why does a perceived lower skill floor require them to have significantly lower DPS ?

> > I'd understand if you wanted to complain about the skill ceiling but the comment was strictly about the floor and even with the ceiling it should never be as drastic as a delta of 27%. That's horrible balance and no one should ever think that's acceptable and yet we have you, male and fenor saying it is.

>

> Because if you compare novice ele to novice necro you'll see necro doing benchmark dps and ele being dead.

 

Take a novice elementalist with a proper novice tempest build and he will still deal more damage than an experienced necromancer with an optimal build. The issue that elementalists are facing is that they do want to use a weaver build which is harder to play just for a few hypothetic extra damage per seconds when they could perform reliably, albeit not optimally, with an easier build.

 

seriously all this polemic about which profession is harder to play than the other is a nonsense to excuse the lack of result of players that struggle to use an optimal build due to a frail group cohesion. Those players should use the reliable build instead of trying to hard to use the optimal build that need optimal group setup to perform optimally.

 

Seriously! Tempest dominated raid dps before before PoF and they didn't lose their edge. Scourge is not easier to play than tempest and can't even deal 30k dps outside of using the epidemic bounce gimmick.

 

The real issue is that elementalist players are studborn and want to play the unreliable weaver instead of the reliable tempest.

 

As for epidemic, even as a necro player I'd rather see it being removed from the game than keeping this gimmick but I'm forced to accept the fact that this is the only necromancer's tool that allow him to try and compete for a spot in raid. To remove epidemic, anet would have to totally overhaul the core necromancer which is not something that they seem to want to do. They prefer to adapt the game to the necromancer instead of adapting the necromancer to the game, which is not a wise choice of developpement in my opinion.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > Why would someone who just started playing raids on scourge have almost same dps as someone who played weaver effectively for months?

> > >

> > > Why would you compare a novice to not one ?

> > > Just because it suits your narrative ?

> > >

> > > Why does a perceived lower skill floor require them to have significantly lower DPS ?

> > > I'd understand if you wanted to complain about the skill ceiling but the comment was strictly about the floor and even with the ceiling it should never be as drastic as a delta of 27%. That's horrible balance and no one should ever think that's acceptable and yet we have you, male and fenor saying it is.

> >

> > Because if you compare novice ele to novice necro you'll see necro doing benchmark dps and ele being dead.

>

> Take a novice elementalist with a proper novice tempest build and he will still deal more damage than an experienced necromancer with an optimal build.

 

What? Have you ever played Tempest?

[steki.1478]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

 

> Take a novice elementalist with a proper novice tempest build and he will still deal more damage than an experienced necromancer with an optimal build. The issue that elementalists are facing is that they do want to use a weaver build which is harder to play just for a few hypothetic extra damage per seconds when they could perform reliably, albeit not optimally, with an easier build.

>

> seriously all this polemic about which profession is harder to play than the other is a nonsense to excuse the lack of result of players that struggle to use an optimal build due to a frail group cohesion. Those players should use the reliable build instead of trying to hard to use the optimal build that need optimal group setup to perform optimally.

>

> Seriously! Tempest dominated raid dps before before PoF and they didn't lose their edge. Scourge is not easier to play than tempest and can't even deal 30k dps outside of using the epidemic bounce gimmick.

>

> The real issue is that elementalist players are studborn and want to play the unreliable weaver instead of the reliable tempest.

>

> As for epidemic, even as a necro player I'd rather see it being removed from the game than keeping this gimmick but I'm forced to accept the fact that this is the only necromancer's tool that allow him to try and compete for a spot in raid. To remove epidemic, anet would have to totally overhaul the core necromancer which is not something that they seem to want to do. They prefer to adapt the game to the necromancer instead of adapting the necromancer to the game, which is not a wise choice of developpement in my opinion.

 

There's nothing unreliable about weaver. Elite spec is focused exclusively on dps and does that extremely well when played properly, which is supposed to be the point of elite specs anyways.

 

The fact that tempest had highest damage in past only shows that elite specs designed to fill multiple roles are broken and unhealthy for game (firebrand can both dps and heal, same with scourge and renegade) especially if the core class brings something unrelated to elite spec (staff doing the most damage on any ele spec, necro being tanky on any spec, guard always having dps and support F skills at any given point etc). A lot of people think tempest was pure support spec, but that isn't true (even wiki states that) and it wont be true as long as there are both offensive and defensive attunements.

 

Scourge cant reach high dps because it's not focused purely on dps, weaver is. Tempest was broken because core ele has strong damage on staff skills, reaper was broken because of lich form and epidemic from core necro, both of those were nerfed sooner or later. Reaper sucks now because anet failed to design a power spec on a condi class and tempest dps is irrelevant since it only does somewhat good dps on a staff (last time I checked condi build it was below 30k and that build was a thing because anet buffed the **core** utility skill). Weaver is strong because core class is a glass cannon and weaver just improves that. same like firebrand support and chrono support. Scourge has boon corrupts, barriers and condi pressure which makes it shine in wvw fights, just like staff weaver shines on static targets (when have you seen a weaver doing well on matthias or desmina, despite it being the full dps spec?).

 

Buff current scourge and you get parties of 90% of scourges in each party. Do you remember "t4 necro only" LFG's? I do. I didnt particularly care about those since you can always make your own lfg, but it's unhealthy. Stacking eles is also unhealthy, but they are a lot more balanced now. Dont compare old balances to current ones, just because tempest could once do 40k dps while doing 6-7k aoe heals on 20 sec, bring rebound, cc and whatnot, doesnt mean that we should have the same thing now. It's bad no matter which class does it.

 

Problem with scourge is that it doesnt need to be babysitted by chronos and druid to do mechanics, they dont need boons outside of might (which they can even stack by themselves) and alacrity which is always there since chrono is irreplacable, they have strong self and group sustain especially when stacked to bounce epi (which exponentially increases both damage and durability). **That's** the problem of necro. On it's own it's an average class, but stacked it gets too broken, which shouldnt be the case to begin with. If you buff scourge too much, you'll stack it whether epi existed or not. If you just nerf epi, class becomes shit.

 

If you give epi an SoI treatment (if target has certain condi share X stacks/duration of that condi to nearby enemies), buff burn traits on scourge, majorly reduce base barrier but increase healing power scaling, the elite spec gets its own flavor and choice of either focusing on doing condi damage or supporting with barriers instead of being either mediocre or utterly broken while doing both at once. No extreme tankiness since barrier output on dps gear would be, lets say 3k in total, no broken mechanics since epi (if used) would be only a tool to get rid of mobs/orbs/shards/statues/whatever so groups would always have benefit of having one scourge on such encounters.

 

I hope thread dies soon since it's pointless to discuss 2 completely different classes with elite specs focused on completely different aspects and offer completely different things. Whether you like it or not, epidemic is broken and needs a change. No skill should ever be able to share over 10 stacks of condi that fast, with a single click and on such low cooldown, whether you have 1 or 5 classes doing it.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > > > > 

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> > > > >

> > > > > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

> > > >

> > > > Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

> > >

> > > ...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.

> >

> > This is Gorseval. The only mechanic that matters in this fight is dps. And if a lone scourge can outdps a weaver on this fight, imagine what epi bouncing can do.

>

> 

>

> We killed it in 4:24 minutes and, as you can see, we didn't even have really good DPS.

 

Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

 

Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

[nia.4725]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > > > > > 

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

> > > >

> > > > ...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.

> > >

> > > This is Gorseval. The only mechanic that matters in this fight is dps. And if a lone scourge can outdps a weaver on this fight, imagine what epi bouncing can do.

> >

> > 

> >

> > We killed it in 4:24 minutes and, as you can see, we didn't even have really good DPS.

>

> Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

>

> Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

 

I'm sorry my friend, I appreciate your passionate post but I wasn't giving proof of anything. If my image does say something, it is purely that scourge (epidemic, better said) is very powerful and does not need to reach high dps to kill things. I'm not saying it's better or worse than weaver. It's impossible to reach correct conclusions about the thing you're discussing here and gw2raidar's data isn't exhaustive enough.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > > > > > 

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

> > > >

> > > > ...and? Still doesn't tell anything. Could very well be that the Scourge played superior. Could very well be that the Weavers killed themselves through Retribution and lost dps that way. Could be x, could be y, could be z. There simply isn't enough data for reliable conclusions. I don't get why people overrate dps anyway. The game is about mechanics and sometimes, it's logical to sacrifice dps in favor of mechanics anyway. God forbid if this game knew proper aggro-management and you'd be forced to play more situational.

> > >

> > > This is Gorseval. The only mechanic that matters in this fight is dps. And if a lone scourge can outdps a weaver on this fight, imagine what epi bouncing can do.

> >

> > 

> >

> > We killed it in 4:24 minutes and, as you can see, we didn't even have really good DPS.

>

> Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

>

If you compare the actuall numbers for each boss you will see that the "dps race" is 7 : 6 in favour of weaver. So i wouldnt exactly say "signigicantly doing more damage over all raid bosses".

Surpisingly those where epi bouncing is possible.

I also hope that you understand that power dps is far superior on low healthpool adds but who cares about cleave anyway....

 

> Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

 

I would conclude that scourge without epi bouncing (average joes dont do that) is trash compared to weaver. drasticly spoken.

which hopefully brings us back to the topic, that epi is way to powerfull and holds the necro hostage balance wise.

 

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

>

> If my image does say something, it is purely that scourge (epidemic, better said) is very powerful and does not need to reach high dps to kill things.

 

If my link does say something, it is purely that weaver is very powerful and does not need to reach high dps to kill things **overall in all raids**, with an actual sample size _over_ n=1.

 

 

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> > It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> > Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

> >

> If you compare the actuall numbers for each boss you will see that the "dps race" is 7 : 6 in favour of weaver. So i wouldnt exactly say "signigicantly doing more damage over all raid bosses".

 

2%, 3%, hell, even 5% is _not_ significantly .... anything over that (especially if it reaches percentages like 15%), I'd call significant. To put it in perspective: ask a salary raise of 15% from your boss tomorrow and ask how he/she would class that ...

 

> > Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

>

> I would conclude that scourge without epi bouncing (average joes dont do that) is trash compared to weaver. drasticly spoken.

> which hopefully brings us back to the topic, that epi is way to powerfull and holds the necro hostage balance wise.

>

I completely agree there!!!

I'm still a _very_ big supporter of having Epi nerfed asap, BUT and exclusively _only_ when this happens with (significant) buffs to Necro in general (PvE) in return!

 

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> >

> > If my image does say something, it is purely that scourge (epidemic, better said) is very powerful and does not need to reach high dps to kill things.

>

> If my link does say something, it is purely that weaver is very powerful and does not need to reach high dps to kill things **overall in all raids**, with an actual sample size _over_ n=1.

>

>

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> > > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> > > It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> > > Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

> > >

> > If you compare the actuall numbers for each boss you will see that the "dps race" is 7 : 6 in favour of weaver. So i wouldnt exactly say "signigicantly doing more damage over all raid bosses".

>

> 2%, 3%, hell, even 5% is _not_ significantly .... anything over that (especially if it reaches percentages like 15%), I'd call significant. To put it in perspective: ask a salary raise of 15% from your boss tomorrow and ask how he/she would class that ...

>

 

Please forget the overall statistics and look at the bosses inndividually. Weaver gains a lot in those statistics since there are bosses (KC,Sloth,Samarog for example) that favours power classes a lot with phase mechanics. The difference on condi favoured bosses isn´t that huge compared to the opposite.

 

> > > Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

> >

> > I would conclude that scourge without epi bouncing (average joes dont do that) is trash compared to weaver. drasticly spoken.

> > which hopefully brings us back to the topic, that epi is way to powerfull and holds the necro hostage balance wise.

> >

> I completely agree there!!!

> I'm still a _very_ big supporter of having Epi nerfed asap, BUT and exclusively _only_ when this happens with (significant) buffs to Necro in general (PvE) in return!

>

>

Yep, it will need buffs to "carry his weight on its own", i agree.

 

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> >

> > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > 

> >

>

> We'll giving a screenshot doesn't tell much more then the scourge beeing better then the weavers

>

> P.S. could you link the reddit post?

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8iw4to/i_got_kicked_from_gorseval_because_im_running/

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

>

> Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

 

An excellent post, thumbs up. It's hilarious that people even tried to bring up that reddit post and similar n=1 stuff.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> > It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> > Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

> >

> > Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

>

> An excellent post, thumbs up. It's hilarious that people even tried to bring up that reddit post and similar n=1 stuff.

 

Because brining your own anecdotal evidence in the form of "everyone knows that..." is so much better.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> > > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> > > It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> > > Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

> > >

> > > Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

> >

> > An excellent post, thumbs up. It's hilarious that people even tried to bring up that reddit post and similar n=1 stuff.

>

> Because brining your own anecdotal evidence in the form of "everyone knows that..." is so much better.

 

As if there wasn't hard data available, which has been referred to several times before that ridiculous screenshot popped up. Guess it just showed something you didn't like.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > Love all this anecdotal "proof": This one time .... Or in other words: absolutely worthless, and doesnt say ANYTHING about balance in general!

> > > > For what it's worth, look at: https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

> > > > It's still not very representative, cause the balance patch is still very fresh, and the 'n' is still very low, but at least try to conclude things from numbers like these, instead of a literal n=1 occasion.

> > > > Anyway, if you analyse these (premature) numbers: you can actually tell that the Weaver is still significantly doing more damage than Scourge over all raid bosses with respectively a sample size of 2204 (Weaver) and 1783 (Scourge). regarding the pros: the ones that know their rotations (the 99th percentile), there's almost a 10% difference on boss dps, _while overall dps (that what's Epi is so good at) the difference is even worse: around 15% in favor of the Weaver!_ So don't worry, these first statistics that are coming in are actually still far more in favor of your precious Weaver!

> > > >

> > > > Fun fact: these same statistics show on the 50th percentile some curious numbers to say the least. Normally the 50th percentile represents the average Joe's and people that still mess up their rotations every now and then. You would think Scourge would have a much higher dps value in that case according to all these comments above, about how complex the Weavers rotation is compared to the Scourges one ... Strangely enough, it's the other way around, with differences exceeding 15% even. So you _could_ even conclude that the Weaver rotations are more forgiving than the Scourges one!

> > >

> > > An excellent post, thumbs up. It's hilarious that people even tried to bring up that reddit post and similar n=1 stuff.

> >

> > Because brining your own anecdotal evidence in the form of "everyone knows that..." is so much better.

>

> As if there wasn't hard data available, which has been referred to several times before that ridiculous screenshot popped up. Guess it just showed something you didn't like.

 

The only available data is skewed by necessity. And anyway you're doing the same right now.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > > > > > > what amuses me the most if why are they reworking all the classes that have less priority. a major overhaul of (especially power) necromancer is the most needed thing right now (along with power ranger and few tweaks for power revenant), meanwhile they reworked chrono (which is nice, it's gotten a good power build - but chrono was already in a strong place), warrior (which is nice, it has now a good variety of power builds - but it was already in a strong place) and now the deadeye changes that are kinda unimportant. how much longer do we have to wait for the necessary overhauls and not just the optional ones?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > To be fair, Deadeye was useless while Scourge was already optimal on many places. Which just got more. Power reaper should be addressed, but gut epi first, plskthxbye.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem is. It only gets good if you stack necros.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Taking away epi will make scourge a supporty class. That has a barrier every 20 seconds and that's it. That's the support it does (scourge)

> > > > > > > Nobody will take necro with them for that one barrier.

> > > > > > > And reaper would be out of raids as well.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's like playing heal ele without water attunement.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And cnecro didn't rlly get more. It's just one extra cast of blood is power for each fight. One extra cast for a whole of 28-32k total dmg. If you manage to transfer those conditions. Else it's only 18k (without any buffs)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem is, you could already outperform weavers with epi bouncing on certain encounters and be close in others.

> > > > > > Weavers just lost about 8k dps while epi bouncing remained more or less the same. See where I'm going with this?

> > > > >

> > > > > But _why_ do Weavers **have** to be TOP DPS in the first place .... pretty much since introduction now? Why can't Weavers or actually the whole class Elementalist be far more of an adaptation to the encounter kind of class. A raiding party is in need of healing, the Weaver/Ele adjusts by switching to water and be helpful there. We need CC: Earth and Air are the elements to attune to, AoE damage needed: Fire! Now, Ele's are defined by how they choose their VERY specific role before the fight commences, and should not even touch the other elements ... That's just completely bad design in the first place! But I understand why ... it's because they simply **ARE** the TOP-dps, it's because they simply **ARE** the best capable healers in the game ... etc. It's broken as hell! So I actually like what ANet is _slowly_ doing, nerf the top-numbers (and pls, keep it coming, cause this is still not enough!), so Ele's can fit more to the role that imo _should_ be their role in the first place: A jack of all trades .... an ELEMENTALIST!

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, what if you've never heard of GW2 before and you want to start playing it (PvE), would you directly think by just seeing the names of the professions that the Elementalist would be your absolute (BY FAR) #1 damage dealer? (AND #1 healer for that matter)??? I wouldn't! Just a simple question, would you not think that should belong more to a thief playstyle: high risk, high reward? Or that of a dark class: I bleed myself, so I can do insane damage to my opponents?

> > > >

> > > > Ele isnt high risk high reward? Are you playing gw2, or ele? And scourge with the huge healthpool for a light class plus shroud plus barriers, has to be top dps somehow because... It bleeds itself? This isnt some kind of crappy anime where the protagonist bleeds himself and goes super sayian, mate. Scourge is just bashing your head on a keyboard, has higher survivability than heavy classes, has epidemic which is absolutely broken when 2+ scourges are together. Reaper is dead, power necro is dead, scourge condi reigns. Also, 2 wrongs dont make ANY right. the fact that powernec isnt existing, doesnt mean that powerele should get heavily nerfed, as well. Necro is in dire need of an overhaul. Also, if ele bothers you, how about mesmer class? Top dps top utilities top tank good heals. And that is ok, somehow?

> > >

> > > So you never played condi necro. U can easily kill yourself now, if u fcked up Ur transfer.

> > >

> > > And no. Ele isn't much more risk than other classes in raids. The only risk taking an ele with your group, is that this guy doesn't find his dmg spells. And sux at the game.

> > > But that can happen with other classes as well.

> > >

> > > Tbh. It's rlly good that staff ele got heavily nerfed.

> > > That offers more build diversity for ele which other classes still not have.

> > >

> > > And you can say the same thing about ele.

> > >

> > > Have you ever tried to tank with ele. Do you know how much heal and boon support it provides?

> > > You can even handkite on Deimos.

> > >

> > > So don't fcking tell me that ele is bad. And don't tell me necro is op because of epi.

> > > Yeah it might be little bit over the top with epibounce. But necro can't tank and the healing capabilities.... It's okayish but nowhere near ele or rev. You can get freaking 12k heal from one ability on ele!

> > >

> > > But it seems like you are also only one of these copy paste guys that never ever tried to make builds on his own.

> > >

> > > Oh and never ever bring that point up again: necro has higher healthily and barriers.

> > >

> > > So what. We don't have a single evade on weapons kills. We don't have a single good teleport or leap. We don't have a single block.

> > > The only thing necro has is a 4k Barrier every 20 seconds for the WHOLE group, that's it. I'm not counting f3 since the barrier is only 2k for the WHOLE group.

> > >

> > > And For the rest of the time we have to use that extra health. While ele can block or just heal incoming dmg with his own regeneration.

> >

> > I main necro. My first char was necro. I made wvw leggy armor for necro alone, cause of build diversity.

> > You compare heal ele to condi nec. Awesome!

> > Nec barriers can affect the whole group. Higher healpower=higher barriers. Also, scourge Master trait 1 gives allies barriers on shade spawning. Maybe you arent too familiar with scourge traits. Furthermore,

> > Ele has a 40s cooldown teleport. Scourge has his own portal, as well. It also ports up to 20 other people.

> > This could go on and on.

> > People like myself, who play and enjoy necro, recognize that epidemic in its current state keeps Anet from making the necro class better. I like necro a lot. I would like to see it have diversity.

> > That doesnt mean ele - a high risk high reward class- has to be killed.

>

> Sure. Epi keeps necro away from having more single target DPS.

> But if you cut epi. You need to heavily buff necro somewhere else.

> And I know necro traits pretty well. I main necro since I started playing gw2. Which is like 3 and a half years now. Why? Because I liked necros dark theme. I even played necro while ele and mesmer were like 10 k or more ahead.

>

>

> You cannot give a whole raid group barrier.

 

> And the same goes for ele: higher healpower, higher heals.

Heal ele (tempest) doesnt do an absurd amount of condi dmg. You trait it and you gear it for healing alone.

> I'm not comparing heal ele to Condi necro. Maybe you should reread.

> I was just saying: if epi gets removed. Scourge is considered to be a support class.

the fact that anet has made scourge an op condi class+barriers with killing reaper, doesnt make it support. It was meant to be, maybe. Is it, tho? Nope. Tempest had the same thing happed to it, too. It was top dps. Now it isnt. It was gutted, as it should be, because weaver took its dps role.

> But as a support, it doesn't offer enough support while playing Condi.

plenty of vids with 6+ scourges dominating raid bosses. No healers there. Just barrierspam and epi bounce.

> it won't do enough dmg to compete with others. Even his cleave would be pretty bad.

>

> Now you have to compare both support builds. Necro and ele:

> Which one is better?

> Both have easy access to rezzes. Ele could give protection, fury, and reflects and frostarmor if wanted.

> Necro gives might and that's it. (Not counting that spectral wall doe)

nope. They should completely revamp scourge's support aspect (scale healing with barrier application, more boons maybe, or boonsharing of some boons+heals in bloodmagic line) and make reaper a dps spec. WE have to ask for this. In wvw epidemic was reigning supreme when condi shoutreaper was a meta thing, oh boy was it unbalanced, so much in fact that they gutted it now. Noone plays epi in wvw as it is, 10sec cd when traited is way too powerful, for what it does. It is a core utility, sure, but today's condispam wasnt a thing when epidemic came out. Imagine if eles had a similar epidemic-like skill, which would make the class simply bounce dmg. ONE skill. Man, people would cry. Ele is about proper rotas, less forgiving mistakes, less hp, more glass cannonish than scourge or nec class altogether. Everyone knows that.

>

> I think anet should just make like 2 bosses of the new wing, that don't spawn adds.

> That will be an indirect nerf to necro epi bouncing

Making 2 bosses where epidemic isnt as useful solves a problem? Really? So we leave necro like this, and just... Make 2 bosses where bounce of epi doesnt stack. Yay. Nec is fixed. Woohoo.

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

[wojin.1860]

Nerfing dps skills on dps classes never did anything to build diversity in raid.

 

It just doesn't work like that.

 

There will always be a "best dps build" and a "best dps stategy" for x content or y encounter.

And everybody else will always get screwed.

Nerf it, and u just nominated someone else to fill up the top spot.

Everybody else still screwed. In the exact same way.

 

Only way to achieve build diversity in raid is to remove specialized tanking and specialized healing.

Because then (and only then) people have an incentive to build something else than the currently best glass cannon build.

 

Want to see less epidemic madness ? nerf chrono and healers.

You won't see epidemic bouncing after that.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"wojin.1860" said:

> Want to see less epidemic madness ? nerf chrono and healers.

> You won't see epidemic bouncing after that.

 

Two of these things have nothing to do with the other.

Chrono and Druid impact on epi bouncing is negligible.

 

If you really want to "remove" epi bouncing you do it through encounter design. You create a boss with no adds, no constructs in range of bouncing and no environmental effects that are target-able.

 

Design the encounters properly and cheese like this ceases to exist, design them in such a way that they can be cheesed and they will it's not unique to necro (Hello Stacktics we meet again).

[Lalainnia.3598]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"wojin.1860" said:

> > Want to see less epidemic madness ? nerf chrono and healers.

> > You won't see epidemic bouncing after that.

>

> Two of these things have nothing to do with the other.

> Chrono and Druid impact on epi bouncing is negligible.

>

> If you really want to "remove" epi bouncing you do it through encounter design. You create a boss with no adds, no constructs in range of bouncing and no environmental effects that are target-able.

>

> Design the encounters properly and cheese like this ceases to exist, design them in such a way that they can be cheesed and they will it's not unique to necro (Hello Stacktics we meet again).

 

So more Carin bosses?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > I would also argue that 50th percentile on gw2efficiency is not even the real 50th percentile since low skilled squads are less likely to even use gw2raidar.

> > > >

> > > > I think this screenshot I saw on reddit recently is more accurate

> > > > 

> > > >

> > >

> > > On Gorseval, no less... Quite sad.

> >

> > That screenshot tells us nothing at all. Could very well be that the Scourge cleared all the adds/orbs with Epi and the Weavers just focused on the Boss. Had the problem quite often that Ele's just want to focus the boss instead of doing what their AoE's are supposed to do: clearing adds fast. So if only the Scourge did that, of course he has superior dps.

>

> Even the boss dps was higher on scourge, it has nothing to do with cleave.

On the other hand, 12k dps boss damage on gorse for a weaver is not that stellar either. On weaver the 50th percentile is above 15k, if you haven't noticed. Perhaps just the scourge was a better player than the rest of the group. The soulbeast seems to have a better boss damage than both weavers as well, should we nerf rangers due to that?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"wojin.1860" said:

> > Want to see less epidemic madness ? nerf chrono and healers.

> > You won't see epidemic bouncing after that.

>

> Two of these things have nothing to do with the other.

> Chrono and Druid impact on epi bouncing is negligible.

>

> If you really want to "remove" epi bouncing you do it through encounter design. You create a boss with no adds, no constructs in range of bouncing and no environmental effects that are target-able.

>

> Design the encounters properly and cheese like this ceases to exist, design them in such a way that they can be cheesed and they will it's not unique to necro (Hello Stacktics we meet again).

 

This does nothing for the already existing encounters and the way epi bouncing is currently broken there. No. The encounters themselves are fine. It's OK to have encounters where you whack more than just one entity. It adds variety. What has to be addressed is the bounce.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> This does nothing for the already existing encounters and the way epi bouncing is currently broken there. No. The encounters themselves are fine. It's OK to have encounters where you whack more than just one entity. It adds variety. What has to be addressed is the bounce.

 

You're reading what you type correct ... ?

How is it epi is fine when there's no ads to bounce to/from, but suddenly ungodly OP by you assertion when the opposite condition is met ?

 

That screams encounter design. Also it's entirely possible with the tech Anet has to have bosses and adds simultaneously. We've seen this done with KC. Problem is people like to cry at every little unique thing, like invulnerability phases messing up their "Rotation". Frankly, the raid team could and likely should add more of them to future encounters so as to spice up design and some burden off strictly DPS mechanics and push them into Mechanical Awareness checks.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > This does nothing for the already existing encounters and the way epi bouncing is currently broken there. No. The encounters themselves are fine. It's OK to have encounters where you whack more than just one entity. It adds variety. What has to be addressed is the bounce.

>

> You're reading what you type correct ... ?

> How is it epi is fine when there's no ads to bounce to/from, but suddenly ungodly OP by you assertion when the opposite condition is met ?

>

> That screams encounter design. Also it's entirely possible with the tech Anet has to have bosses and adds simultaneously. We've seen this done with KC. Problem is people like to cry at every little unique thing, like invulnerability phases messing up their "Rotation". Frankly, the raid team could and likely should add more of them to future encounters so as to spice up design and some burden off strictly DPS mechanics and push them into Mechanical Awareness checks.

 

I disagree. You can't restrict every single boss encounter in the game just because of one single skill. Which is used in a way that is exactly opposite to what is intuitively "correct" for it. To me, it is very clearly an issue with the skill, not the encounters.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> I disagree. You can't restrict every single boss encounter in the game just because of one single skill. Which is used in a way that is exactly opposite to what is intuitively "correct" for it. To me, it is very clearly an issue with the skill, not the encounters.

 

Why can't they again ?

It's not like it hasn't been done before and won't be done again. Heck core mechanics are ultimately invalidated in Raids by design looking at Stealth (as most arena's give revealed).

 

It is very much down to encounter design, a skill cannot be both OP and Fine at the same time as you would have it. The skill is fine except when extraordinary conditions are met, in this case Ads with large health pools, small arenas and class stacking.

 

Several of those things can be addressed through encounter design. A boss could have a cleanse happen at X stacks of conditions, It could return conditions back to senders, it could reflect projectiles, it could have phases of condition damage immunity(not limited to just condition damage). All of these are tools the developers have at their disposal when creating encounters.